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On December 14 2011 10:35 KoRStarvid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 10:28 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 08:52 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 07:32 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 07:06 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 06:59 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 06:54 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 06:48 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 06:44 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 06:25 rysecake wrote:
[quote]
You're only seeing this from a westerners perspective. Try not being ignorant for once. Well, Naniwa isn't korean, and he never will be. They had Naniwa play a game which had no money on the line at all, and it doesn't matter then if the koreans expect gamers to be entertainers, cause at that moment (from Naniwas point of view) that game had nothing to do with Naniwa being a pro gamer. Naniwa wants to earn an income playing games, GSL had him play even though he wouldn't get one buck for it. guess where he's playing Korea. Guess who's in korea Koreans. Guess you have to deal with their ideals then, seriously. And why is that? GSL basically invites Naniwa to the tournament and then say "But if it goes down a certain way, you'll have to work for free". GSL wants to be international, well don't screw with international players then. Wrong. Naniwa received prize money. Your logic is failing. There was no money on the line in that game. Nothing to gain. I sure as hell wouldnt work an extra hour if I wasn't getting paid for it, and Naniwa seems to see it that way too. Your logic is failing. You said that "if it goes down a certain way, you'll have to work for free". That is not correct, there was no way in which he would have to work for free, he just had his pay assured in advance. There is no increase in pay for playing well, but he is not working for free. He's a pro gamer, nothing more, nothing less. That statement doesn't add any value at all. Note that his team expects him to deliver entertaining games. See the Quantic statement I quoted earlier. Unlike the earlier games, he had nothing to gain financially from playing that game, and thusly Naniwa did exactly what was required of him. He's a pro gamer, not an artist. He competes in StarCraft 2 for money, he's not putting on shows for our entertainment. Technically he played that game, but he didn't fake any competetion. For all I care, he could've a moved probes in every damn game and still earned that money just for showing up, but since he's a professional gamer he only did it in the completely meaningless game. Go watch WWE if you want a show. Nonsense. You don't want a show, fine, but you're not everyone else. He's also paid to entertain and attract viewers. See the Quantic quote when they took over his contract, it's clear that they expect to entertain viewers with games. This is a live event with many fans attending in person, you are deluded if you think that this is not a show. And the show is part of pro gaming, whether you like it or not. That's why there are rivalries which are hyped up, etc. Believe it or not, sponsors and fans care about interesting and exciting games, even if the winner does not benefit financially. If you don't care, that's your thing, but claiming that nobody should care or they should watch WWE is just retarded. If you don't care about the show, don't watch the game that doesn't affect his prize money, but he is being paid to entertain -- that's what sponsorship is all about, drawing viewers. Edit: Since you seem to have missed it, here's Quantic's statement: “We’ve make a commitment to invest in StarCraft 2, in order to deliver the most memorable and engaging experiences for both fans and partners. We expect our ‘Power-Protoss-Duo’ to deliver at the highest and most entertaining level. I warmly welcome Johan to the team.” If you don't watch a show, don't watch the event. It's wrong to say he isn't paid to entertain. It's up to GOM to put on a show, not Naniwa. They failed to do so.
Wait, now you say it's for WWE watchers?
GOM relies on its players for cooperation, which is exactly why people are lambasting Naniwa.
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On December 14 2011 10:35 KoRStarvid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 10:28 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 08:52 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 07:32 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 07:06 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 06:59 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 06:54 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 06:48 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 06:44 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 06:25 rysecake wrote:
[quote]
You're only seeing this from a westerners perspective. Try not being ignorant for once. Well, Naniwa isn't korean, and he never will be. They had Naniwa play a game which had no money on the line at all, and it doesn't matter then if the koreans expect gamers to be entertainers, cause at that moment (from Naniwas point of view) that game had nothing to do with Naniwa being a pro gamer. Naniwa wants to earn an income playing games, GSL had him play even though he wouldn't get one buck for it. guess where he's playing Korea. Guess who's in korea Koreans. Guess you have to deal with their ideals then, seriously. And why is that? GSL basically invites Naniwa to the tournament and then say "But if it goes down a certain way, you'll have to work for free". GSL wants to be international, well don't screw with international players then. Wrong. Naniwa received prize money. Your logic is failing. There was no money on the line in that game. Nothing to gain. I sure as hell wouldnt work an extra hour if I wasn't getting paid for it, and Naniwa seems to see it that way too. Your logic is failing. You said that "if it goes down a certain way, you'll have to work for free". That is not correct, there was no way in which he would have to work for free, he just had his pay assured in advance. There is no increase in pay for playing well, but he is not working for free. He's a pro gamer, nothing more, nothing less. That statement doesn't add any value at all. Note that his team expects him to deliver entertaining games. See the Quantic statement I quoted earlier. Unlike the earlier games, he had nothing to gain financially from playing that game, and thusly Naniwa did exactly what was required of him. He's a pro gamer, not an artist. He competes in StarCraft 2 for money, he's not putting on shows for our entertainment. Technically he played that game, but he didn't fake any competetion. For all I care, he could've a moved probes in every damn game and still earned that money just for showing up, but since he's a professional gamer he only did it in the completely meaningless game. Go watch WWE if you want a show. Nonsense. You don't want a show, fine, but you're not everyone else. He's also paid to entertain and attract viewers. See the Quantic quote when they took over his contract, it's clear that they expect to entertain viewers with games. This is a live event with many fans attending in person, you are deluded if you think that this is not a show. And the show is part of pro gaming, whether you like it or not. That's why there are rivalries which are hyped up, etc. Believe it or not, sponsors and fans care about interesting and exciting games, even if the winner does not benefit financially. If you don't care, that's your thing, but claiming that nobody should care or they should watch WWE is just retarded. If you don't care about the show, don't watch the game that doesn't affect his prize money, but he is being paid to entertain -- that's what sponsorship is all about, drawing viewers. Edit: Since you seem to have missed it, here's Quantic's statement: “We’ve make a commitment to invest in StarCraft 2, in order to deliver the most memorable and engaging experiences for both fans and partners. We expect our ‘Power-Protoss-Duo’ to deliver at the highest and most entertaining level. I warmly welcome Johan to the team.” If you don't watch a show, don't watch the event. It's wrong to say he isn't paid to entertain. It's up to GOM to put on a show, not Naniwa. They failed to do so.
It wasn't a show for you because Naniwa put up a doughnut? Yeah, it's up to GOM to put on a show, that's why they GET players to play matches...
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That's your opinion of a pro-gamer's job. IMO, it depends on the situation and where the pro-gamer is getting their income. Someone like Destiny, I would argue his job is to entertain viewers. That's because (I assume) his income is from streaming, moreso than winning tournaments or sponsorships, or team salary. Naniwa has said he left Complexity, at least in significant part, because they focused less on tournament winnings and more on streaming and publicity than he was comfortable with. He specifically mentioned the contrast between his MLG results to Catz' stream viewership. He said Complexity saw them comparably and Naniwa disagreed. So, it's clear Naniwa is not concerned with that side of the business, which is fine. He wants to win tournaments. That's what he wants. He is a pro-gamer because he earns his living playing Starcraft 2. If viewers find his play entertaining, that's a bonus, but it's not his job. Winning is. For others, they have other priorities, and they can all find themselves under the umbrella of the "pro-gamer" moniker.
Do you not realize the whole budding esports industry stems from fans?
it's viewership that pulls money for "tournament winnings" which the winners get.
Where do you think the salaries of pros and tournament winnings comes from? thin air?
To make myself clear, without the fans there would be no OSL/MSL/GSL, so there wouldn't be any "winnings" for any "pro-gamer" to win. Thus, to say "he doesn't care to entertain but wants to win" - it's flawed because without entertaining there would be nothing to win.
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On December 14 2011 10:38 MorningMusume11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 10:35 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 10:28 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 08:52 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 07:32 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 07:06 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 06:59 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 06:54 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 06:48 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 06:44 KoRStarvid wrote:
[quote]
Well, Naniwa isn't korean, and he never will be. They had Naniwa play a game which had no money on the line at all, and it doesn't matter then if the koreans expect gamers to be entertainers, cause at that moment (from Naniwas point of view) that game had nothing to do with Naniwa being a pro gamer. Naniwa wants to earn an income playing games, GSL had him play even though he wouldn't get one buck for it. guess where he's playing Korea. Guess who's in korea Koreans. Guess you have to deal with their ideals then, seriously. And why is that? GSL basically invites Naniwa to the tournament and then say "But if it goes down a certain way, you'll have to work for free". GSL wants to be international, well don't screw with international players then. Wrong. Naniwa received prize money. Your logic is failing. There was no money on the line in that game. Nothing to gain. I sure as hell wouldnt work an extra hour if I wasn't getting paid for it, and Naniwa seems to see it that way too. Your logic is failing. You said that "if it goes down a certain way, you'll have to work for free". That is not correct, there was no way in which he would have to work for free, he just had his pay assured in advance. There is no increase in pay for playing well, but he is not working for free. He's a pro gamer, nothing more, nothing less. That statement doesn't add any value at all. Note that his team expects him to deliver entertaining games. See the Quantic statement I quoted earlier. Unlike the earlier games, he had nothing to gain financially from playing that game, and thusly Naniwa did exactly what was required of him. He's a pro gamer, not an artist. He competes in StarCraft 2 for money, he's not putting on shows for our entertainment. Technically he played that game, but he didn't fake any competetion. For all I care, he could've a moved probes in every damn game and still earned that money just for showing up, but since he's a professional gamer he only did it in the completely meaningless game. Go watch WWE if you want a show. Nonsense. You don't want a show, fine, but you're not everyone else. He's also paid to entertain and attract viewers. See the Quantic quote when they took over his contract, it's clear that they expect to entertain viewers with games. This is a live event with many fans attending in person, you are deluded if you think that this is not a show. And the show is part of pro gaming, whether you like it or not. That's why there are rivalries which are hyped up, etc. Believe it or not, sponsors and fans care about interesting and exciting games, even if the winner does not benefit financially. If you don't care, that's your thing, but claiming that nobody should care or they should watch WWE is just retarded. If you don't care about the show, don't watch the game that doesn't affect his prize money, but he is being paid to entertain -- that's what sponsorship is all about, drawing viewers. Edit: Since you seem to have missed it, here's Quantic's statement: “We’ve make a commitment to invest in StarCraft 2, in order to deliver the most memorable and engaging experiences for both fans and partners. We expect our ‘Power-Protoss-Duo’ to deliver at the highest and most entertaining level. I warmly welcome Johan to the team.” If you don't watch a show, don't watch the event. It's wrong to say he isn't paid to entertain. It's up to GOM to put on a show, not Naniwa. They failed to do so. It wasn't a show for you because Naniwa put up a doughnut? Yeah, it's up to GOM to put on a show, that's why they GET players to play matches...
Yeah, exactly.
Also, as I quoted from Quantic's press release, it is also his job to put on a show. That's what he's getting paid for: the expectation to generate exciting high-level games. If he's not in the mood to do so, that's no excuse for not trying -- if you don't think that's unprofessional, I don't know what exactly you mean by "professional".
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On December 14 2011 10:39 ThePurist wrote:Show nested quote +
That's your opinion of a pro-gamer's job. IMO, it depends on the situation and where the pro-gamer is getting their income. Someone like Destiny, I would argue his job is to entertain viewers. That's because (I assume) his income is from streaming, moreso than winning tournaments or sponsorships, or team salary. Naniwa has said he left Complexity, at least in significant part, because they focused less on tournament winnings and more on streaming and publicity than he was comfortable with. He specifically mentioned the contrast between his MLG results to Catz' stream viewership. He said Complexity saw them comparably and Naniwa disagreed. So, it's clear Naniwa is not concerned with that side of the business, which is fine. He wants to win tournaments. That's what he wants. He is a pro-gamer because he earns his living playing Starcraft 2. If viewers find his play entertaining, that's a bonus, but it's not his job. Winning is. For others, they have other priorities, and they can all find themselves under the umbrella of the "pro-gamer" moniker.
Do you not realize the whole budding esports industry stems from fans? it's viewership that pulls money for "tournament winnings" which the winners get. Where do you think the salaries of pros and tournament winnings comes from? thin air? To make myself clear, without the fans there would be no OSL/MSL/GSL, so there wouldn't be any "winnings" for any "pro-gamer" to win. Thus, to say "he doesn't care to entertain but wants to win" - it's flawed because without entertaining there would be nothing to win.
If the pro-gamer lives off prize money, he can claim to not care about entertaining, regardless of whether it's good or bad for esports. But if he's sponsored, he probably is expected to represent his sponsors in a favorable light and also attract viewers. So yeah.
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On December 14 2011 10:41 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 10:39 ThePurist wrote:
That's your opinion of a pro-gamer's job. IMO, it depends on the situation and where the pro-gamer is getting their income. Someone like Destiny, I would argue his job is to entertain viewers. That's because (I assume) his income is from streaming, moreso than winning tournaments or sponsorships, or team salary. Naniwa has said he left Complexity, at least in significant part, because they focused less on tournament winnings and more on streaming and publicity than he was comfortable with. He specifically mentioned the contrast between his MLG results to Catz' stream viewership. He said Complexity saw them comparably and Naniwa disagreed. So, it's clear Naniwa is not concerned with that side of the business, which is fine. He wants to win tournaments. That's what he wants. He is a pro-gamer because he earns his living playing Starcraft 2. If viewers find his play entertaining, that's a bonus, but it's not his job. Winning is. For others, they have other priorities, and they can all find themselves under the umbrella of the "pro-gamer" moniker.
Do you not realize the whole budding esports industry stems from fans? it's viewership that pulls money for "tournament winnings" which the winners get. Where do you think the salaries of pros and tournament winnings comes from? thin air? To make myself clear, without the fans there would be no OSL/MSL/GSL, so there wouldn't be any "winnings" for any "pro-gamer" to win. Thus, to say "he doesn't care to entertain but wants to win" - it's flawed because without entertaining there would be nothing to win. If the pro-gamer lives off prize money, he can claim to not care about entertaining, regardless of whether it's good or bad for esports. But if he's sponsored, he probably is expected to represent his sponsors in a favorable light and also attract viewers. So yeah.
No. The industry's foundation is based on entertaining. There would be no prize money without people watching. Sponsorship and prize money are the same thing - It's still money and corporations and organizations spend this money because there is viewership.
Why would people put up money to feed/clothe/shelter a guy who plays games all day? What's in it for them?
Why would people put up money for tournaments for games? What's in it for them?
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On December 14 2011 10:46 ThePurist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 10:41 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 10:39 ThePurist wrote:
That's your opinion of a pro-gamer's job. IMO, it depends on the situation and where the pro-gamer is getting their income. Someone like Destiny, I would argue his job is to entertain viewers. That's because (I assume) his income is from streaming, moreso than winning tournaments or sponsorships, or team salary. Naniwa has said he left Complexity, at least in significant part, because they focused less on tournament winnings and more on streaming and publicity than he was comfortable with. He specifically mentioned the contrast between his MLG results to Catz' stream viewership. He said Complexity saw them comparably and Naniwa disagreed. So, it's clear Naniwa is not concerned with that side of the business, which is fine. He wants to win tournaments. That's what he wants. He is a pro-gamer because he earns his living playing Starcraft 2. If viewers find his play entertaining, that's a bonus, but it's not his job. Winning is. For others, they have other priorities, and they can all find themselves under the umbrella of the "pro-gamer" moniker.
Do you not realize the whole budding esports industry stems from fans? it's viewership that pulls money for "tournament winnings" which the winners get. Where do you think the salaries of pros and tournament winnings comes from? thin air? To make myself clear, without the fans there would be no OSL/MSL/GSL, so there wouldn't be any "winnings" for any "pro-gamer" to win. Thus, to say "he doesn't care to entertain but wants to win" - it's flawed because without entertaining there would be nothing to win. If the pro-gamer lives off prize money, he can claim to not care about entertaining, regardless of whether it's good or bad for esports. But if he's sponsored, he probably is expected to represent his sponsors in a favorable light and also attract viewers. So yeah. No. The industry's foundation is based on entertaining. There would be no prize money without people watching. Sponsorship and prize money are the same thing - It's still money and corporations and organizations spend this money because there is viewership. Why would people put up money to feed/clothe/shelter a guy who plays games all day? What's in it for them? Why would people put up money for tournaments for games? What's in it for them?
You misunderstand -- I agree with you. It wouldn't work if everyone was like that. But a guy can make a living without trying to support the eco-system, as long as people don't ban him from events. I'm not saying that that guy deserves the fans' respect, or that it is a laudable approach, but it works if the ecosystem is large enough (and the community is not punitive).
The only difference between prize money and sponsorship money is the pay-out condition, and the former does not require you to actually add value to the market, since it's hard to codify that in tournament rules. The latter requires you to add value of some sort to your sponsors, or they'll just pull the plug.
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Naniwa claims a tournament is a joke because apparently admins don't know the map (when obviously he himself should know them as well), yet, nobody can say he is a joke because of his antics? That does not seem fair, when you are ready to label a tournament that cost so much a joke, when you are one of the very first people who is turning it into a joke with joke attitude and joke games.
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To me, the real question is why were this game even played? They don't play all 7 games of the world series if one team has already won 4 games, I don't see why this should be any different.
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On December 14 2011 10:40 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 10:38 MorningMusume11 wrote:On December 14 2011 10:35 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 10:28 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 08:52 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 07:32 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 07:06 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 06:59 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 06:54 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 06:48 zhurai wrote:
[quote]
guess where he's playing
Korea.
Guess who's in korea
Koreans.
Guess you have to deal with their ideals then, seriously. And why is that? GSL basically invites Naniwa to the tournament and then say "But if it goes down a certain way, you'll have to work for free". GSL wants to be international, well don't screw with international players then. Wrong. Naniwa received prize money. Your logic is failing. There was no money on the line in that game. Nothing to gain. I sure as hell wouldnt work an extra hour if I wasn't getting paid for it, and Naniwa seems to see it that way too. Your logic is failing. You said that "if it goes down a certain way, you'll have to work for free". That is not correct, there was no way in which he would have to work for free, he just had his pay assured in advance. There is no increase in pay for playing well, but he is not working for free. He's a pro gamer, nothing more, nothing less. That statement doesn't add any value at all. Note that his team expects him to deliver entertaining games. See the Quantic statement I quoted earlier. Unlike the earlier games, he had nothing to gain financially from playing that game, and thusly Naniwa did exactly what was required of him. He's a pro gamer, not an artist. He competes in StarCraft 2 for money, he's not putting on shows for our entertainment. Technically he played that game, but he didn't fake any competetion. For all I care, he could've a moved probes in every damn game and still earned that money just for showing up, but since he's a professional gamer he only did it in the completely meaningless game. Go watch WWE if you want a show. Nonsense. You don't want a show, fine, but you're not everyone else. He's also paid to entertain and attract viewers. See the Quantic quote when they took over his contract, it's clear that they expect to entertain viewers with games. This is a live event with many fans attending in person, you are deluded if you think that this is not a show. And the show is part of pro gaming, whether you like it or not. That's why there are rivalries which are hyped up, etc. Believe it or not, sponsors and fans care about interesting and exciting games, even if the winner does not benefit financially. If you don't care, that's your thing, but claiming that nobody should care or they should watch WWE is just retarded. If you don't care about the show, don't watch the game that doesn't affect his prize money, but he is being paid to entertain -- that's what sponsorship is all about, drawing viewers. Edit: Since you seem to have missed it, here's Quantic's statement: “We’ve make a commitment to invest in StarCraft 2, in order to deliver the most memorable and engaging experiences for both fans and partners. We expect our ‘Power-Protoss-Duo’ to deliver at the highest and most entertaining level. I warmly welcome Johan to the team.” If you don't watch a show, don't watch the event. It's wrong to say he isn't paid to entertain. It's up to GOM to put on a show, not Naniwa. They failed to do so. It wasn't a show for you because Naniwa put up a doughnut? Yeah, it's up to GOM to put on a show, that's why they GET players to play matches... Yeah, exactly. Also, as I quoted from Quantic's press release, it is also his job to put on a show. That's what he's getting paid for: the expectation to generate exciting high-level games. If he's not in the mood to do so, that's no excuse for not trying -- if you don't think that's unprofessional, I don't know what exactly you mean by "professional".
Well that's a team issue, no need for any outsiders to get involved.
I'm saying there's no way we as spectators can blame Naniwa for anything. Some may not like him because of his attitude, but he's not doing anything wrong. The game didn't pan out as some of you might have hoped, but that's because GOM didn't make sure the players would do their best.
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On December 14 2011 10:58 TestSubject893 wrote:
To me, the real question is why were this game even played? They don't play all 7 games of the world series if one team has already won 4 games, I don't see why this should be any different.
Because if you know two players you want to watch are playing on the seventh set... I don't think you'd be asking that, EVEN IF there was nothing tangible to play for (because you want to see them play regardless).
On December 14 2011 10:59 KoRStarvid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 10:40 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 10:38 MorningMusume11 wrote:On December 14 2011 10:35 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 10:28 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 08:52 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 07:32 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 07:06 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 06:59 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 06:54 KoRStarvid wrote:
[quote]
And why is that? GSL basically invites Naniwa to the tournament and then say "But if it goes down a certain way, you'll have to work for free". GSL wants to be international, well don't screw with international players then. Wrong. Naniwa received prize money. Your logic is failing. There was no money on the line in that game. Nothing to gain. I sure as hell wouldnt work an extra hour if I wasn't getting paid for it, and Naniwa seems to see it that way too. Your logic is failing. You said that "if it goes down a certain way, you'll have to work for free". That is not correct, there was no way in which he would have to work for free, he just had his pay assured in advance. There is no increase in pay for playing well, but he is not working for free. He's a pro gamer, nothing more, nothing less. That statement doesn't add any value at all. Note that his team expects him to deliver entertaining games. See the Quantic statement I quoted earlier. Unlike the earlier games, he had nothing to gain financially from playing that game, and thusly Naniwa did exactly what was required of him. He's a pro gamer, not an artist. He competes in StarCraft 2 for money, he's not putting on shows for our entertainment. Technically he played that game, but he didn't fake any competetion. For all I care, he could've a moved probes in every damn game and still earned that money just for showing up, but since he's a professional gamer he only did it in the completely meaningless game. Go watch WWE if you want a show. Nonsense. You don't want a show, fine, but you're not everyone else. He's also paid to entertain and attract viewers. See the Quantic quote when they took over his contract, it's clear that they expect to entertain viewers with games. This is a live event with many fans attending in person, you are deluded if you think that this is not a show. And the show is part of pro gaming, whether you like it or not. That's why there are rivalries which are hyped up, etc. Believe it or not, sponsors and fans care about interesting and exciting games, even if the winner does not benefit financially. If you don't care, that's your thing, but claiming that nobody should care or they should watch WWE is just retarded. If you don't care about the show, don't watch the game that doesn't affect his prize money, but he is being paid to entertain -- that's what sponsorship is all about, drawing viewers. Edit: Since you seem to have missed it, here's Quantic's statement: “We’ve make a commitment to invest in StarCraft 2, in order to deliver the most memorable and engaging experiences for both fans and partners. We expect our ‘Power-Protoss-Duo’ to deliver at the highest and most entertaining level. I warmly welcome Johan to the team.” If you don't watch a show, don't watch the event. It's wrong to say he isn't paid to entertain. It's up to GOM to put on a show, not Naniwa. They failed to do so. It wasn't a show for you because Naniwa put up a doughnut? Yeah, it's up to GOM to put on a show, that's why they GET players to play matches... Yeah, exactly. Also, as I quoted from Quantic's press release, it is also his job to put on a show. That's what he's getting paid for: the expectation to generate exciting high-level games. If he's not in the mood to do so, that's no excuse for not trying -- if you don't think that's unprofessional, I don't know what exactly you mean by "professional". Well that's a team issue, no need for any outsiders to get involved. I'm saying there's no way we as spectators can blame Naniwa for anything. Some may not like him because of his attitude, but he's not doing anything wrong. The game didn't pan out as some of you might have hoped, but that's because GOM didn't make sure the players would do their best.
Legally or technically, take your pick and you're right (outside Quantic contractual stuff). However, if this tournament wasn't hosted by a Korean company, it it wasn't played in Korea, and if his opponent was a non-Korean than it would be a non-issue. Plus spectators can blame him, because how many people circled that day (especially paying customers) on their mental calendars because they were anticipating a potentially epic match. You wanna blame GOM fine, however GOM provided the venue so that Naniwa could potentially cash in by playing... plus his attitude in regards to that match because of this controversy, why would GOM want to invite him to another exhibition if his presence is going to attract unfavorable, negative attention?
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On December 14 2011 10:59 KoRStarvid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 10:40 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 10:38 MorningMusume11 wrote:On December 14 2011 10:35 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 10:28 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 08:52 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 07:32 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 07:06 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 06:59 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 06:54 KoRStarvid wrote:
[quote]
And why is that? GSL basically invites Naniwa to the tournament and then say "But if it goes down a certain way, you'll have to work for free". GSL wants to be international, well don't screw with international players then. Wrong. Naniwa received prize money. Your logic is failing. There was no money on the line in that game. Nothing to gain. I sure as hell wouldnt work an extra hour if I wasn't getting paid for it, and Naniwa seems to see it that way too. Your logic is failing. You said that "if it goes down a certain way, you'll have to work for free". That is not correct, there was no way in which he would have to work for free, he just had his pay assured in advance. There is no increase in pay for playing well, but he is not working for free. He's a pro gamer, nothing more, nothing less. That statement doesn't add any value at all. Note that his team expects him to deliver entertaining games. See the Quantic statement I quoted earlier. Unlike the earlier games, he had nothing to gain financially from playing that game, and thusly Naniwa did exactly what was required of him. He's a pro gamer, not an artist. He competes in StarCraft 2 for money, he's not putting on shows for our entertainment. Technically he played that game, but he didn't fake any competetion. For all I care, he could've a moved probes in every damn game and still earned that money just for showing up, but since he's a professional gamer he only did it in the completely meaningless game. Go watch WWE if you want a show. Nonsense. You don't want a show, fine, but you're not everyone else. He's also paid to entertain and attract viewers. See the Quantic quote when they took over his contract, it's clear that they expect to entertain viewers with games. This is a live event with many fans attending in person, you are deluded if you think that this is not a show. And the show is part of pro gaming, whether you like it or not. That's why there are rivalries which are hyped up, etc. Believe it or not, sponsors and fans care about interesting and exciting games, even if the winner does not benefit financially. If you don't care, that's your thing, but claiming that nobody should care or they should watch WWE is just retarded. If you don't care about the show, don't watch the game that doesn't affect his prize money, but he is being paid to entertain -- that's what sponsorship is all about, drawing viewers. Edit: Since you seem to have missed it, here's Quantic's statement: “We’ve make a commitment to invest in StarCraft 2, in order to deliver the most memorable and engaging experiences for both fans and partners. We expect our ‘Power-Protoss-Duo’ to deliver at the highest and most entertaining level. I warmly welcome Johan to the team.” If you don't watch a show, don't watch the event. It's wrong to say he isn't paid to entertain. It's up to GOM to put on a show, not Naniwa. They failed to do so. It wasn't a show for you because Naniwa put up a doughnut? Yeah, it's up to GOM to put on a show, that's why they GET players to play matches... Yeah, exactly. Also, as I quoted from Quantic's press release, it is also his job to put on a show. That's what he's getting paid for: the expectation to generate exciting high-level games. If he's not in the mood to do so, that's no excuse for not trying -- if you don't think that's unprofessional, I don't know what exactly you mean by "professional". Well that's a team issue, no need for any outsiders to get involved. I'm saying there's no way we as spectators can blame Naniwa for anything. Some may not like him because of his attitude, but he's not doing anything wrong. The game didn't pan out as some of you might have hoped, but that's because GOM didn't make sure the players would do their best.
That's such a cheap excuse. You're saying Naniwa can do whatever he want and nobody is allowed to call him unprofessional? Not even the very people who fund his career by virtue of viewing events he attends?
Why can they not? If he does not want his actions to be judged by his fans, he should not accept playing in widely casted events, simple as that. He does care about his fans, he stated that repeatedly. He let many of them down, and they're disappointed by it.
Why can spectators not blame him for anything? It's a spectator sport, for christ's sake!
Whether he breaks a rule or not is not something fans should care about either, by your logic, since that's only GOM's business. You're just saying that everyone should shut up, presumably because they disagree with you and you have run out of arguments.
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A little bit sad that Naniwa didn't care enough about his fans to play one game for them, even against Nestea, which I'm sure isn't a chance you get everyday. Not to mention the 'rivalry' between the two. If he really refused to just play because he doesn't get any money for it it's quite dissapointing.  Treat it as a ladder game at least...ah well.
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I honestly could not care about what happens to him that's not up to me.
I'm not saying "oh shit he's a fucking _____________ for doing ___________" but at the same time many people do not seem to understand, especially when they say "he plays to win, not to entertain".
I'm just arguing on how flawed that is, and I did understand your point clearly but perhaps I wasn't clear with myself but what I meant to say was that
Regardless of prize money from winnings, or sponsorships - Money that flows within the competitive SC2 scene is primarily based on viewership and entertainment. Prize money and team sponsorships would not exist at all without hardcore fans in the first place. There must be this demand to watch or else it's just a computer game. BW birthed this model.
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I was hoping the interview would be more about the other games, there's not really much to say about the last one imo
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On December 14 2011 11:05 ThePurist wrote:
I honestly could not care about what happens to him that's not up to me.
I'm not saying "oh shit he's a fucking _____________ for doing ___________" but at the same time many people do not seem to understand, especially when they say "he plays to win, not to entertain".
I'm just arguing on how flawed that is, and I did understand your point clearly but perhaps I wasn't clear with myself but what I meant to say was that
Regardless of prize money from winnings, or sponsorships - Money that flows within the competitive SC2 scene is primarily based on viewership and entertainment. Prize money and team sponsorships would not exist at all without hardcore fans in the first place. There must be this demand to watch or else it's just a computer game. BW birthed this model.
pretty much this is how I felt
Although Naniwa has a point, he still shouldn't of done it like that. He says "If I 4gated people would've still complained"
If he 4gated Im sure this drama wouldn't have happened.
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On December 14 2011 11:03 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 10:59 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 10:40 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 10:38 MorningMusume11 wrote:On December 14 2011 10:35 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 10:28 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 08:52 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 07:32 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 07:06 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 06:59 bmn wrote:
[quote]
Wrong. Naniwa received prize money. Your logic is failing. There was no money on the line in that game. Nothing to gain. I sure as hell wouldnt work an extra hour if I wasn't getting paid for it, and Naniwa seems to see it that way too. Your logic is failing. You said that "if it goes down a certain way, you'll have to work for free". That is not correct, there was no way in which he would have to work for free, he just had his pay assured in advance. There is no increase in pay for playing well, but he is not working for free. He's a pro gamer, nothing more, nothing less. That statement doesn't add any value at all. Note that his team expects him to deliver entertaining games. See the Quantic statement I quoted earlier. Unlike the earlier games, he had nothing to gain financially from playing that game, and thusly Naniwa did exactly what was required of him. He's a pro gamer, not an artist. He competes in StarCraft 2 for money, he's not putting on shows for our entertainment. Technically he played that game, but he didn't fake any competetion. For all I care, he could've a moved probes in every damn game and still earned that money just for showing up, but since he's a professional gamer he only did it in the completely meaningless game. Go watch WWE if you want a show. Nonsense. You don't want a show, fine, but you're not everyone else. He's also paid to entertain and attract viewers. See the Quantic quote when they took over his contract, it's clear that they expect to entertain viewers with games. This is a live event with many fans attending in person, you are deluded if you think that this is not a show. And the show is part of pro gaming, whether you like it or not. That's why there are rivalries which are hyped up, etc. Believe it or not, sponsors and fans care about interesting and exciting games, even if the winner does not benefit financially. If you don't care, that's your thing, but claiming that nobody should care or they should watch WWE is just retarded. If you don't care about the show, don't watch the game that doesn't affect his prize money, but he is being paid to entertain -- that's what sponsorship is all about, drawing viewers. Edit: Since you seem to have missed it, here's Quantic's statement: “We’ve make a commitment to invest in StarCraft 2, in order to deliver the most memorable and engaging experiences for both fans and partners. We expect our ‘Power-Protoss-Duo’ to deliver at the highest and most entertaining level. I warmly welcome Johan to the team.” If you don't watch a show, don't watch the event. It's wrong to say he isn't paid to entertain. It's up to GOM to put on a show, not Naniwa. They failed to do so. It wasn't a show for you because Naniwa put up a doughnut? Yeah, it's up to GOM to put on a show, that's why they GET players to play matches... Yeah, exactly. Also, as I quoted from Quantic's press release, it is also his job to put on a show. That's what he's getting paid for: the expectation to generate exciting high-level games. If he's not in the mood to do so, that's no excuse for not trying -- if you don't think that's unprofessional, I don't know what exactly you mean by "professional". Well that's a team issue, no need for any outsiders to get involved. I'm saying there's no way we as spectators can blame Naniwa for anything. Some may not like him because of his attitude, but he's not doing anything wrong. The game didn't pan out as some of you might have hoped, but that's because GOM didn't make sure the players would do their best. That's such a cheap excuse. You're saying Naniwa can do whatever he want and nobody is allowed to call him unprofessional? Not even the very people who fund his career by virtue of viewing events he attends? Why can they not? If he does not want his actions to be judged by his fans, he should not accept playing in widely casted events, simple as that. He does care about his fans, he stated that repeatedly. He let many of them down, and they're disappointed by it. Why can spectators not blame him for anything? It's a spectator sport, for christ's sake! Whether he breaks a rule or not is not something fans should care about either, by your logic, since that's only GOM's business. You're just saying that everyone should shut up, presumably because they disagree with you and you have run out of arguments.
He did something STUPID if he wants to be popular, but he's done nothing ethically wrong. No one outside of his team has any right to say he doesn't qualify to be a pro gamer. Period.
Edit: Yeah, and I'm a fan btw. Even more so now actually. Naniwa keeping it real.
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Can Naniwa please make an official announcement saying that he threw the game?
I and a lot of other people bet money on him on Pinnacle Sports, we need this match declared thrown to get our money back.
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Norway25712 Posts
Was looking forward to his side of the story. Doesn't change anything for me. I still don't care. I understand, and I'm not going to make a fuzz fighting those that feel he robbed them for a game or anything like that.
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On December 14 2011 11:20 Babs1337 wrote:
Can Naniwa please make an official announcement saying that he threw the game?
I and a lot of other people bet money on him on Pinnacle Sports, we need this match declared thrown to get our money back.
Like betting on an All Star-game
I bet against the Harlem Globetrotters, can I get my money back?
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EPT
