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On December 14 2011 11:18 KoRStarvid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:03 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 10:59 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 10:40 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 10:38 MorningMusume11 wrote:On December 14 2011 10:35 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 10:28 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 08:52 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 07:32 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 07:06 KoRStarvid wrote:
[quote]
Your logic is failing. There was no money on the line in that game. Nothing to gain. I sure as hell wouldnt work an extra hour if I wasn't getting paid for it, and Naniwa seems to see it that way too. Your logic is failing. You said that "if it goes down a certain way, you'll have to work for free". That is not correct, there was no way in which he would have to work for free, he just had his pay assured in advance. There is no increase in pay for playing well, but he is not working for free. He's a pro gamer, nothing more, nothing less. That statement doesn't add any value at all. Note that his team expects him to deliver entertaining games. See the Quantic statement I quoted earlier. Unlike the earlier games, he had nothing to gain financially from playing that game, and thusly Naniwa did exactly what was required of him. He's a pro gamer, not an artist. He competes in StarCraft 2 for money, he's not putting on shows for our entertainment. Technically he played that game, but he didn't fake any competetion. For all I care, he could've a moved probes in every damn game and still earned that money just for showing up, but since he's a professional gamer he only did it in the completely meaningless game. Go watch WWE if you want a show. Nonsense. You don't want a show, fine, but you're not everyone else. He's also paid to entertain and attract viewers. See the Quantic quote when they took over his contract, it's clear that they expect to entertain viewers with games. This is a live event with many fans attending in person, you are deluded if you think that this is not a show. And the show is part of pro gaming, whether you like it or not. That's why there are rivalries which are hyped up, etc. Believe it or not, sponsors and fans care about interesting and exciting games, even if the winner does not benefit financially. If you don't care, that's your thing, but claiming that nobody should care or they should watch WWE is just retarded. If you don't care about the show, don't watch the game that doesn't affect his prize money, but he is being paid to entertain -- that's what sponsorship is all about, drawing viewers. Edit: Since you seem to have missed it, here's Quantic's statement: “We’ve make a commitment to invest in StarCraft 2, in order to deliver the most memorable and engaging experiences for both fans and partners. We expect our ‘Power-Protoss-Duo’ to deliver at the highest and most entertaining level. I warmly welcome Johan to the team.” If you don't watch a show, don't watch the event. It's wrong to say he isn't paid to entertain. It's up to GOM to put on a show, not Naniwa. They failed to do so. It wasn't a show for you because Naniwa put up a doughnut? Yeah, it's up to GOM to put on a show, that's why they GET players to play matches... Yeah, exactly. Also, as I quoted from Quantic's press release, it is also his job to put on a show. That's what he's getting paid for: the expectation to generate exciting high-level games. If he's not in the mood to do so, that's no excuse for not trying -- if you don't think that's unprofessional, I don't know what exactly you mean by "professional". Well that's a team issue, no need for any outsiders to get involved. I'm saying there's no way we as spectators can blame Naniwa for anything. Some may not like him because of his attitude, but he's not doing anything wrong. The game didn't pan out as some of you might have hoped, but that's because GOM didn't make sure the players would do their best. That's such a cheap excuse. You're saying Naniwa can do whatever he want and nobody is allowed to call him unprofessional? Not even the very people who fund his career by virtue of viewing events he attends? Why can they not? If he does not want his actions to be judged by his fans, he should not accept playing in widely casted events, simple as that. He does care about his fans, he stated that repeatedly. He let many of them down, and they're disappointed by it. Why can spectators not blame him for anything? It's a spectator sport, for christ's sake! Whether he breaks a rule or not is not something fans should care about either, by your logic, since that's only GOM's business. You're just saying that everyone should shut up, presumably because they disagree with you and you have run out of arguments. He did something STUPID if he wants to be popular, but he's done nothing ethically wrong. No one outside of his team has any right to say he doesn't qualify to be a pro gamer. Period. Edit: Yeah, and I'm a fan btw. Even more so now actually. Naniwa keeping it real.
What, there's a special "right" reserved to team members to judge whether you are qualified to be a progamer or not? Where's that nonsense from?
It's clear you just have nothing to answer all the points brought forth by people disagreeing with you, and now you close your eyes and say everything is fine. You didn't address ANY of the points explaining why what he did was bad and unprofessional, you just say "he's done nothing ethically wrong".
Might as well just reply saying you don't care about any arguments. Or might as well not reply. I was hoping you had something to add to set us straight.
Edit: Oh, by the way, he does care to be popular, so at least you agree that what he did was stupid. (And doing things that are stupid in order to become popular is what makes you... become a fan? Fascinating train of thought.)
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On December 14 2011 11:22 KoRStarvid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:20 Babs1337 wrote:
Can Naniwa please make an official announcement saying that he threw the game?
I and a lot of other people bet money on him on Pinnacle Sports, we need this match declared thrown to get our money back. Like betting on an All Star-game I bet against the Harlem Globetrotters, can I get my money back?
Since when are the Harlem Globetrotters an All Star team? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_All-Star_Game
Yeah, didn't think so.
Oh, by the way: All Star games are for show. You said SC2 wasn't for show, but now you're saying he played a game that was for show?
(Edit: Removed snarky reply that I unfairly directed at KoRStarvid.)
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[QUOTE]On December 14 2011 10:39 ThePurist wrote:
[QUOTE]
Do you not realize the whole budding esports industry stems from fans?
it's viewership that pulls money for "tournament winnings" which the winners get.
Where do you think the salaries of pros and tournament winnings comes from? thin air?
To make myself clear, without the fans there would be no OSL/MSL/GSL, so there wouldn't be any "winnings" for any "pro-gamer" to win. Thus, to say "he doesn't care to entertain but wants to win" - it's flawed because without entertaining there would be nothing to win.
[/QUOTE]
You are severely misinformed, yes the fans are half the reason GOM and GSL operate, but you are daft for thinking that it is the supporters' money that is actually funding all of these events.
They are called sponsors, and regardless of who they get to play, where they are from or how many fans they have, they will always get sponsorship from corporations such as Intel or AMD. If they were counting on ticket sales to actually fund the running of the event they wouldn't have an event to begin with because they need the money first, is this making sense?
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Funny, I thought with nothing at stake, players could be free to show some unique and highly entertaining games.
Get outta here.
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If that was his real mindset then it's much more understandable. Even heartwarming in a creepy way... I still don't like the probe rush... but as long as he has his fans in mind... he should get back on track.
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You are severely misinformed, yes the fans are half the reason GOM and GSL operate, but you are daft for thinking that it is the supporters' money that is actually funding all of these events.
They are called sponsors, and regardless of who they get to play, where they are from or how many fans they have, they will always get sponsorship from corporations such as Intel or AMD. If they were counting on ticket sales to actually fund the running of the event they wouldn't have an event to begin with because they need the money first, is this making sense?
Wouldn't see a dime of sponsor money if they didn't think there were fans watching. At the core, everything comes from the fans, essentially.
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On December 14 2011 11:23 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:18 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 11:03 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 10:59 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 10:40 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 10:38 MorningMusume11 wrote:On December 14 2011 10:35 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 10:28 bmn wrote:On December 14 2011 08:52 KoRStarvid wrote:On December 14 2011 07:32 bmn wrote:
[quote]
Your logic is failing. You said that "if it goes down a certain way, you'll have to work for free". That is not correct, there was no way in which he would have to work for free, he just had his pay assured in advance. There is no increase in pay for playing well, but he is not working for free.
[quote]
That statement doesn't add any value at all. Note that his team expects him to deliver entertaining games. See the Quantic statement I quoted earlier. Unlike the earlier games, he had nothing to gain financially from playing that game, and thusly Naniwa did exactly what was required of him. He's a pro gamer, not an artist. He competes in StarCraft 2 for money, he's not putting on shows for our entertainment. Technically he played that game, but he didn't fake any competetion. For all I care, he could've a moved probes in every damn game and still earned that money just for showing up, but since he's a professional gamer he only did it in the completely meaningless game. Go watch WWE if you want a show. Nonsense. You don't want a show, fine, but you're not everyone else. He's also paid to entertain and attract viewers. See the Quantic quote when they took over his contract, it's clear that they expect to entertain viewers with games. This is a live event with many fans attending in person, you are deluded if you think that this is not a show. And the show is part of pro gaming, whether you like it or not. That's why there are rivalries which are hyped up, etc. Believe it or not, sponsors and fans care about interesting and exciting games, even if the winner does not benefit financially. If you don't care, that's your thing, but claiming that nobody should care or they should watch WWE is just retarded. If you don't care about the show, don't watch the game that doesn't affect his prize money, but he is being paid to entertain -- that's what sponsorship is all about, drawing viewers. Edit: Since you seem to have missed it, here's Quantic's statement: “We’ve make a commitment to invest in StarCraft 2, in order to deliver the most memorable and engaging experiences for both fans and partners. We expect our ‘Power-Protoss-Duo’ to deliver at the highest and most entertaining level. I warmly welcome Johan to the team.” If you don't watch a show, don't watch the event. It's wrong to say he isn't paid to entertain. It's up to GOM to put on a show, not Naniwa. They failed to do so. It wasn't a show for you because Naniwa put up a doughnut? Yeah, it's up to GOM to put on a show, that's why they GET players to play matches... Yeah, exactly. Also, as I quoted from Quantic's press release, it is also his job to put on a show. That's what he's getting paid for: the expectation to generate exciting high-level games. If he's not in the mood to do so, that's no excuse for not trying -- if you don't think that's unprofessional, I don't know what exactly you mean by "professional". Well that's a team issue, no need for any outsiders to get involved. I'm saying there's no way we as spectators can blame Naniwa for anything. Some may not like him because of his attitude, but he's not doing anything wrong. The game didn't pan out as some of you might have hoped, but that's because GOM didn't make sure the players would do their best. That's such a cheap excuse. You're saying Naniwa can do whatever he want and nobody is allowed to call him unprofessional? Not even the very people who fund his career by virtue of viewing events he attends? Why can they not? If he does not want his actions to be judged by his fans, he should not accept playing in widely casted events, simple as that. He does care about his fans, he stated that repeatedly. He let many of them down, and they're disappointed by it. Why can spectators not blame him for anything? It's a spectator sport, for christ's sake! Whether he breaks a rule or not is not something fans should care about either, by your logic, since that's only GOM's business. You're just saying that everyone should shut up, presumably because they disagree with you and you have run out of arguments. He did something STUPID if he wants to be popular, but he's done nothing ethically wrong. No one outside of his team has any right to say he doesn't qualify to be a pro gamer. Period. Edit: Yeah, and I'm a fan btw. Even more so now actually. Naniwa keeping it real. What, there's a special "right" reserved to team members to judge whether you are qualified to be a progamer or not? Where's that nonsense from? It's clear you just have nothing to answer all the points brought forth by people disagreeing with you, and now you close your eyes and say everything is fine. You didn't address ANY of the points explaining why what he did was bad and unprofessional, you just say "he's done nothing ethically wrong". Might as well just reply saying you don't care about any arguments. Or might as well not reply. I was hoping you had something to add to set us straight. Edit: Oh, by the way, he does care to be popular, so at least you agree that what he did was stupid. (And doing things that are stupid in order to become popular is what makes you... become a fan? Fascinating train of thought.)
What makes all of the people saying he isn't qualified to be a pro gamer, have the right to to judge whether or not he should be a pro gamer? If I'm a basketball player, and some other basketball player says I'm not "qualified" does it make it true? You can have an opinion on whether or not you think what he did was professional or not, but "professional" players in every sports do "unprofessional" things all the time. Not playing a match that had no effect on the outcome however, does not determine your status as a pro-gamer.
What he did kinda sucks. But the reality is, he didn't care about that match, because it didn't mean anything. And while we as fans might want to see that match, you can't make somebody care about a match that doesn't matter. And last I checked, not caring doesn't make or break you as a pro. The only people who really have a right to tell Naniwa he can't do that, is his team.
Edit: And no, the fans have no right to say he has to play that match how they wanted him to. He's his own player, he can do whatever he wants. It's his and his team's business if he throws a match, and if you don't like it don't watch and support him from now on.
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It's no big deal what he did, only shock jock haters would care about something so small.
I support Naniwa, as he is honest and does what he wants.
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[QUOTE]On December 14 2011 11:32 Boof wrote:
[QUOTE]
Wouldn't see a dime of sponsor money if they didn't think there were fans watching. At the core, everything comes from the fans, essentially.[/QUOTE]
You're right but having more than 4.5 million copies sold within 6 months of it's release is a pretty good indicator that there is a large fan base out there, not just supporting the players but the game itself. Any corporation that sees a business opportunity that directly supports their product line (eg Intel) is going to pounce, they didn't need a year to see if the game would take off, they knew within 24 hours.
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You're all crying over spilled milk.
Christ, it was stupid and perhaps unprofessional, but what do you want to do? Lynch him?
Some people are REALLY overreacting to this.
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[QUOTE]On December 14 2011 11:30 Shortynut wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 14 2011 10:39 ThePurist wrote:
[QUOTE]
Do you not realize the whole budding esports industry stems from fans?
it's viewership that pulls money for "tournament winnings" which the winners get.
Where do you think the salaries of pros and tournament winnings comes from? thin air?
To make myself clear, without the fans there would be no OSL/MSL/GSL, so there wouldn't be any "winnings" for any "pro-gamer" to win. Thus, to say "he doesn't care to entertain but wants to win" - it's flawed because without entertaining there would be nothing to win.
[/QUOTE]
You are severely misinformed, yes the fans are half the reason GOM and GSL operate, but you are daft for thinking that it is the supporters' money that is actually funding all of these events.
They are called sponsors, and regardless of who they get to play, where they are from or how many fans they have, they will always get sponsorship from corporations such as Intel or AMD. If they were counting on ticket sales to actually fund the running of the event they wouldn't have an event to begin with because they need the money first, is this making sense?[/QUOTE]
The sponsors are there for the fans, so the person you're replying to is still correct.
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On December 13 2011 23:22 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
If I could do it again i would just 4 gate and then people wouldnt have complained, this is no different from what Stephano did against Cloud at Dreamhack [Note: After going 0-2 and being eliminated from his group, Stephano went for two very early pool builds against Cloud. Stephano's match against Cloud had ranking implications for other players in his group], People are just hating because it's me who did it.
Except, you cannot win with 7 probe rush...
I understand Naniwa's mentality at that point and why he did it, but it's not the same thing as what Stephano did.
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On December 14 2011 11:30 Shortynut wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 10:39 ThePurist wrote:
Do you not realize the whole budding esports industry stems from fans?
it's viewership that pulls money for "tournament winnings" which the winners get.
Where do you think the salaries of pros and tournament winnings comes from? thin air?
To make myself clear, without the fans there would be no OSL/MSL/GSL, so there wouldn't be any "winnings" for any "pro-gamer" to win. Thus, to say "he doesn't care to entertain but wants to win" - it's flawed because without entertaining there would be nothing to win.
You are severely misinformed, yes the fans are half the reason GOM and GSL operate, but you are daft for thinking that it is the supporters' money that is actually funding all of these events. They are called sponsors, and regardless of who they get to play, where they are from or how many fans they have, they will always get sponsorship from corporations such as Intel or AMD. If they were counting on ticket sales to actually fund the running of the event they wouldn't have an event to begin with because they need the money first, is this making sense?
And such corporations are utilizing the sponsor-ships of players as one way to attract even more consumers... as for ticket sales, the more tickets sold leads to more viewers which also leads to potential new consumers because a corporation's brand is being exposed to an audience through the player...
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On December 14 2011 11:22 KoRStarvid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:20 Babs1337 wrote:
Can Naniwa please make an official announcement saying that he threw the game?
I and a lot of other people bet money on him on Pinnacle Sports, we need this match declared thrown to get our money back. Like betting on an All Star-game I bet against the Harlem Globetrotters, can I get my money back?
Are you suggesting that betting, just because it's starcraft, is not a serious matter?
Pinnacle is a highly regarded bookmaker and they only offer lines on high integrity tournaments. There is a lot of money put on these games, this no laughing matter. When matches are declared thrown in sports betting, all bets are declared void, and this is what needs to occur.
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The public has attached a sense of a 'code of conduct' to the term "professional." Due to the fact that such an expectation exists in the minds of the fans, it would not be unprofessional for teams to consider how lucrative it would be to address the field of public relations with their members. I hope Naniwa, fans, and all of the Starcraft community can use this experience as an opportunity to grow; as professionals, as fans, and as a community.
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On December 14 2011 11:46 MorningMusume11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:30 Shortynut wrote:On December 14 2011 10:39 ThePurist wrote:
Do you not realize the whole budding esports industry stems from fans?
it's viewership that pulls money for "tournament winnings" which the winners get.
Where do you think the salaries of pros and tournament winnings comes from? thin air?
To make myself clear, without the fans there would be no OSL/MSL/GSL, so there wouldn't be any "winnings" for any "pro-gamer" to win. Thus, to say "he doesn't care to entertain but wants to win" - it's flawed because without entertaining there would be nothing to win.
You are severely misinformed, yes the fans are half the reason GOM and GSL operate, but you are daft for thinking that it is the supporters' money that is actually funding all of these events. They are called sponsors, and regardless of who they get to play, where they are from or how many fans they have, they will always get sponsorship from corporations such as Intel or AMD. If they were counting on ticket sales to actually fund the running of the event they wouldn't have an event to begin with because they need the money first, is this making sense? And such corporations are utilizing the sponsor-ships of players as one way to attract even more consumers... as for ticket sales, the more tickets sold leads to more viewers which also leads to potential new consumers because a corporation's brand is being exposed to an audience through the player...
I'll try and make my point a little clearer;
Without fans, sponsors will not act; Without sponsors, fans cannot access these events because they wouldn't exist.
Who then is more important? (Why i said they are only half the reason 
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On December 14 2011 11:53 Shortynut wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:46 MorningMusume11 wrote:On December 14 2011 11:30 Shortynut wrote:On December 14 2011 10:39 ThePurist wrote:
Do you not realize the whole budding esports industry stems from fans?
it's viewership that pulls money for "tournament winnings" which the winners get.
Where do you think the salaries of pros and tournament winnings comes from? thin air?
To make myself clear, without the fans there would be no OSL/MSL/GSL, so there wouldn't be any "winnings" for any "pro-gamer" to win. Thus, to say "he doesn't care to entertain but wants to win" - it's flawed because without entertaining there would be nothing to win.
You are severely misinformed, yes the fans are half the reason GOM and GSL operate, but you are daft for thinking that it is the supporters' money that is actually funding all of these events. They are called sponsors, and regardless of who they get to play, where they are from or how many fans they have, they will always get sponsorship from corporations such as Intel or AMD. If they were counting on ticket sales to actually fund the running of the event they wouldn't have an event to begin with because they need the money first, is this making sense? And such corporations are utilizing the sponsor-ships of players as one way to attract even more consumers... as for ticket sales, the more tickets sold leads to more viewers which also leads to potential new consumers because a corporation's brand is being exposed to an audience through the player... I'll try and make my point a little clearer; Without fans, sponsors will not act; Without sponsors, fans cannot access these events because they wouldn't exist. Who then is more important? (Why i said they are only half the reason
With your verbage, even if one is more important than the other (and hell lets say sponsors are important cuz they have the $$$$), theoretically one can't exist without the other.
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On December 14 2011 11:55 MorningMusume11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:53 Shortynut wrote:On December 14 2011 11:46 MorningMusume11 wrote:On December 14 2011 11:30 Shortynut wrote:On December 14 2011 10:39 ThePurist wrote:
Do you not realize the whole budding esports industry stems from fans?
it's viewership that pulls money for "tournament winnings" which the winners get.
Where do you think the salaries of pros and tournament winnings comes from? thin air?
To make myself clear, without the fans there would be no OSL/MSL/GSL, so there wouldn't be any "winnings" for any "pro-gamer" to win. Thus, to say "he doesn't care to entertain but wants to win" - it's flawed because without entertaining there would be nothing to win.
You are severely misinformed, yes the fans are half the reason GOM and GSL operate, but you are daft for thinking that it is the supporters' money that is actually funding all of these events. They are called sponsors, and regardless of who they get to play, where they are from or how many fans they have, they will always get sponsorship from corporations such as Intel or AMD. If they were counting on ticket sales to actually fund the running of the event they wouldn't have an event to begin with because they need the money first, is this making sense? And such corporations are utilizing the sponsor-ships of players as one way to attract even more consumers... as for ticket sales, the more tickets sold leads to more viewers which also leads to potential new consumers because a corporation's brand is being exposed to an audience through the player... I'll try and make my point a little clearer; Without fans, sponsors will not act; Without sponsors, fans cannot access these events because they wouldn't exist. Who then is more important? (Why i said they are only half the reason With your verbage, even if one is more important than the other (and hell lets say sponsors are important cuz they have the $$$$), theoretically one can't exist without the other.
Sponsor's are established business' getting commercial time by using a person or team to advertise for them.
They lose almost nothing by losing SC2. We lose everything.
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Such a lack of respect for Nestea and GOM. Not even going to bring up his fans because he probably already lost most of them.
Doesn't matter if he does this crap in other tournament in his own country or whatever, but going to Korea for such a prestige tournament, you can't bring your usual crap there. Why the koreans are treating it like such a big deal? Because the culture is just different there.
Just take a look at Nani, Stephano or Idra, "oh that game means nothing, I ain't playing seriously".
Now you take a look at people like HerO, BoxeR, Nestea, or any true gamer there. They play till their last breath to show the fans the best games, wake up early just to practice harder to live up to their name. It really hurts you to see them disappointed after losing their game because you see the passion they have for the game is just different.
It's the mindset, some people just don't have the right one. I'm not generalizing and saying all foreigners are like that, they are people like HuK who amazes me with his fighting spirit, but just that there are still a few out there who were raised in a place/culture where the word respect isn't drilled hard enough into their brains.
Such attitude really put the "foreigners" to shame.
Don't bother bringing up CoCa, it's totally different. CoCa played good, serious games. Even if he threw it, he still showed good games to people who were watching until the very end when they knew the winner. However he still received such severe punishment. Really, looks like it does pay to be raised by a Korean parent, time for some people to learn about respect. Did Nestea even think of throwing that game? He even wanted a good game so he could at least show his best even though he is out of the tournament.
Maybe to some of you it's not, but for me, I was raised to show respect to others in whatever I do, whoever I meet that's why I do think it's a big deal too. I was taught to play till the end and shake my opponent's hand regardless of the result. It's not about money, not at all. Maybe the culture in EU/US is different, I don't know.
Respect.
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EPT
