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On December 14 2011 03:50 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:48 Slardar wrote:If I may quote Nazgul from the LR Thread. On December 13 2011 21:06 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
No respect to viewers, producers, casters and anyone else involved in making this tournament a success.
If there were betting lines out of these matches it's absolutely unacceptable regarding that as well. I doubt Naniwa researched that so it's morally the same decision. This is the bottom line, he's a Professional. He gets paid to have a level head and not do these things, he gets paid by his team to fly him there, without GOM, Blizzard he wouldn't have A JOB. He spat in a lot of peoples faces for no reason, I would understand if he did it in an MLG Consolation match..... but a "Blizzard Cup" ... in KOREA... Televised..... VS NESTEA... that is a recipe to step on a lot of toes. He could've just 2 gate proxied if he didn't want to play, he couldn't even do that. Point is, people have to realize HE DID something wrong as a PROFESSIONAL and stop arguing he is blameless, he owes his fans, team, GOM & Blizzard & Nestea an apology. A player gets paid to practice and win, that is all. If they have other "obligations" to be paid, then something is wrong here. He already apologized, btw.
No, they're actually not. That's their legal contract. But there are norms associated with the job.
If you work an office job, you're not paid based on what you wear. But try wearing a t-shirt, jeans, and white K-Swiss to work (to say "I don't give a fuck") and see how your manager and coworkers respond. FYI - this happened at work last week. The guy has Aspergers.
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On December 14 2011 03:47 BlueyD wrote:
To people defending Naniwa's actions with a "clash of cultures" argument: Do you really want your culture represented by poor sportsmanship and a total disregard for the fans whose eyes make Naniwa having an esports job possible?
Hockey teams eliminated from the playoffs still play the last few games of the season. Sure, they might give that rookie goalie a few games or try new strategies, but they don't just blatantly throw the game because they know how wrong that is..
Naniwa should have played it out. If he didn't want to give it his best, he was free to do, say, a carrier build to entertain, or a cheesy build to end it quickly.
These arguments pop up a lot. "He should have done a goofy build". But is there really a difference? I certainly think that there's no difference in Naniwa's eyes. You either play to win and do your best, or you don't care about winning or losing. And that is theoretically the same whether you are going mass hallucinated phoenix or just probe rushing and getting it over with. Yes, entertainment-wise, there is a difference. Yes, in the eyes of the Korean esports culture, there certainly seems to be difference. But you could argue with validity that there is no difference, and starting to talk about bans just feels way out of proportion.
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well i thought i had lost all respect for him after mlg, but nope! i found myself cheering for him again today until that. forever an anti-fan of naniwa and qxg(unless qxg calls him out). BOOO
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On December 14 2011 03:53 zestzorb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:51 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 14 2011 03:46 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 03:43 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 14 2011 03:38 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 03:37 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 14 2011 03:34 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 03:31 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 14 2011 03:29 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 03:27 NDsOdapOp wrote:
[quote]
Are you kidding. He has constantly put up good results and is one of the best foreign players out there, not to mention that things like this have happened far worst and more frequently elsewhere, but simple because it was in Korea it was blown out of proportion. And you want to ban him from the biggest Starcraft tournament for 2 years because he made a discussion when he was upset and probably not thinking straight. How can you blame him for being demoralized, he had lost all his previous games, he had nothing to fight for, sure it would have been nice if he played the match, but you have to respect the fact that he is human. And if GOM actually bans him for 2 years u can't really blame them for doing that, you have to respect the fact that they organize a competition for players to compete. Yeah, for money. The match Naniwa competed for wasn't for money. It was for shits and giggles. He could have thrown it in many different ways. Nestea could have thrown it many ways. They had absolutely nothing to gain other than a televised win which ultimately amounts to nothing other a tiny bit of press. From GOM's PoV, they want to attract more viewers with quality games. Throwing games doesn't support their cause. So throw the matches if you'd like but don't whine if GOM bans you for two years. GSL has no pointless matches. Have you ever seen someone throw a match that wasn't because a player DIDN'T want to win money/prestige in the GSL? No incentive to win = no quality games. The format is stupid, no doubt. But GOM wouldn't prefer Naniwa acting like that anyway, would they? That's GOM's fault for overlooking this issue, not Naniwa's who was the player stuck in it. The system is bad and GOM should do something about it, but that doesn't mean Naniwa is right. He lacks professionalism and doesn't fit in with any tournament looking for professional competition. edit: think about it this way. If that was Boxer in Nani's shoes, what do you think he would do? And which action GOM would prefer, Boxer's or Nani's? Boxer in Naniwa's shoes? Make a line of bunkers from your base to your opponents. Well I think he might do something like that and still show us some entertaining game. Yesterday Hero was also 0-3 and in the last match he played honorably, didn't he?
By show us an entertaining game I think you mean cause thousands of fans to storm out of a stadium in disgust at how fake a match is. Get it? Storm.
I don't give a flying fuck if Hero played 'honorably' If hero decided to take off all his clothes, do a handstand and play with his feet my answer would be the same; blame the tournament, not naniwa. Like really, it doesn't matter who decided to play a match, it wasn't real. They didn't give a fuck. Naniwa was the only one to have the balls to basically say, "this match is pointless, I dont give a fuck."
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I honestly don't understand how people can support let alone be accepting of what Naniwa did especially when this community wants e-sports to be taken seriously. In every professional sport (regardless of sport -- and yes, another sports reference) players have an obligation to at the very least show up and perform their job which is exactly what Naniwa didn't do and why so many people took such an offense to it. It is no question that e-sports has grown and is evident as pro-gamers now have decent salaries, sponsors, and tournaments that have huge prize pools, but it is these types of situations/behaviors and the fact that so many people of this community are accepting and trying to justify what he did was appropriate is what prevents or at the very least, slows down, the growth and legitimacy of this sport that we as a community love and spend so much time on.
Also, since a lot of people don't seem to get the idea to all the sport analogies being thrown around, regardless of if it's bench players on the field, court, or ice, professional players are still obligated to show up and perform. Yes, teams in the NBA, NFL, NHL, and MLB bench/rest players at times when they're playing inconsequential games to prevent injuries and for a higher draft pick, there's still no denying the fact that the players are still showing up and doing their jobs. Even if they are the bench players or the franchise players who aren't playing for the majority of the game, all professional sports players PLAY TO WIN THE GAME. They don't just cop out and basically give a huge "F U" to their fans/viewers of their sport by saying "unless I have something to play for I can't perform my best... with nothing at stake people can't show their best games, I dont think it would satisfy people who bought GSL viewership" as Naniwa did in his Blizzard Cup interview. As a professional, even if you can't play your best, you still play as you're not only being paid to, but you at the very least owe it to your fans and fans of the sport that are giving you the opportunity to do so.
The biggest difference between this and Stephano/Cloud at Dreamhack is how Naniwa blatantly and transparently threw the game. This was also essentially an invitational tournament for us fans to see the game's "allstars" to close out the year hence why they decided to televise the match even though it held no bearing on the tournament results as both were already eliminated. I mean who wouldn't want to see a Naniwa/Nestea game especially due to their recent "rivalry". Also, this game was being broadcasted to a MUCH larger audience as not only us foreigners were tuning in, but Koreans as well coupled with the fact that he basically threw the game so transparently, it's no surprise there's so much backlash.
tldr; you play to win the game -- i dont care if you don't have any wins -- you go play to win
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This happens in many sports aswell. If a player has nothing to gain from winning a match then he won't do his best. The easy solution for this is to reward players a small amount of money for every match they win which many sports do.
I don't think it's right to do what Naniwa did but you won't see any good tactics in a game like that, I think the Koreans are blowing this out of proportion.
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Nestea should have shown a good game to the fans by worker rushing at the same time.
...
Get over it. Is it really better if Naniwa goes and proxy two gates instead?
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On December 14 2011 03:53 Nadarath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:44 ticki wrote:
If you guys really don't understand why the Koreans don't like his behavior, you must be new to the scene or simply ignorant. To not give a fuck about the match and his 'rival' is pretty bad and he shouldn't be playing in the GSL
Edit: It's like playing a soccer game representing your country (USA v England or some shit) and not giving a shit because it's a friendly game. You would be surprised how often that happens in off-season. If National team does not play in World Cup or Euro Cup in next year they tend to send 3rd squad. Mediocre players who wont stand a chance in World Cup. And again - Blizzard Cup is nowhere near to be compared to World Cup. It is just a tournament.
Hahaha, someone should see Spain's results in all the exibition matches after the world cup xD
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On December 14 2011 03:55 Daudr wrote:
As stupid as that game was in my eyes, if GOM actually takes some sort of action against Naniwa, as is suggested in the article, I will most definitely stop supporting their tournaments.
I'm not familiar with the relationship that exists between GOM and the players, but unless there's some sort of clause in a contract between the two parties that brings up a situation like this, Naniwa has done nothing wrong in my opinion.
In ANY competitive game or sport, if the match or whatever has no real meaning behind it, the player(s) are less inclined to give a shit about it.
Apparently action is already taken, or that's the rumour.
Allegedly he won't be DQed from regular GSL seasons, but he won't be invited to special events ever again.
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NANI FIGHTING! love from sweden
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On December 14 2011 03:54 Russano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:52 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Im pretty sure that this is going to have consequences for him. Some people might find it funny and all that, but its a korean tournament taking place in korea, and in their culture this is not considered funny, and they are the ones that decide~~ Unfortunately their culture is also known for having a shit sense of humor, so I wouldn't be surprised if it does turn out really badly for him.
yea bro.
what he did was so funny huh
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On December 14 2011 03:53 Toadvine wrote:
Honestly, what this tells me is that the entire Korean scene is composed of unprofessional idiots with a pronounced mob-mentality. Ok, Naniwa disrespected the tournament and let down his fans by doing what he did. It's bad, we get it. However, does this really necessitate everyone and their mother angrily tweeting about it, insulting him and demanding that GOM and Blizzard (lol, seriously) discipline him somehow? Do the coaches really need to get involved in this shitstorm? You'd think they'd lynch him and burn him at the stake if they could.
I also have a sneaking suspicion that Naniwa is partially correct about this being about him as a person more than anything else. It's like they were all waiting for an opportunity, bottling up their anger at the terrible foreigner who dared thumb down Nestea in a live event.
TLDR: All the people participating in this witchhunt are worse than Naniwa himself in my book. Way to blow shit out of proportion.
I felt like some of them overreacted. But you sure are deciding your impression on the WHOLE KOREAN SCENE with just a few tweets from a few figures. Just saying....
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Such a shame, so much talent gone to waste.
I think with this move he's actually done serious damage to his career, not because of the incident itself, but you add it on to all the other things over the last few months and the team hopping, and you have a player that just isn't worth the hassle, regardless of the results he can bring when not on tilt.
I think what he needs more than anything right now is a personal coach, or manager, that can help him get to grip with his emotions.
Very sad. I've been a big fan of his play style. Ultimately I cheer for players due to a combination of personality and play style and this was just a step too far for me.
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On December 14 2011 03:56 Ponchey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:47 BlueyD wrote:
To people defending Naniwa's actions with a "clash of cultures" argument: Do you really want your culture represented by poor sportsmanship and a total disregard for the fans whose eyes make Naniwa having an esports job possible?
Hockey teams eliminated from the playoffs still play the last few games of the season. Sure, they might give that rookie goalie a few games or try new strategies, but they don't just blatantly throw the game because they know how wrong that is..
Naniwa should have played it out. If he didn't want to give it his best, he was free to do, say, a carrier build to entertain, or a cheesy build to end it quickly. These arguments pop up a lot. "He should have done a goofy build". But is there really a difference? I certainly think that there's no difference in Naniwa's eyes. You either play to win and do your best, or you don't care about winning or losing. And that is theoretically the same whether you are going mass hallucinated phoenix or just probe rushing and getting it over with. Yes, entertainment-wise, there is a difference. Yes, in the eyes of the Korean esports culture, there certainly seems to be difference. But you could argue with validity that there is no difference, and starting to talk about bans just feels way out of proportion.
Aparently for thoes ppl if he would do sloppy zelot rush or bad 4gate it would be like sooo much better. Only because they could say that Nestea is their god and they pray to his poster every day and he beat Naniwa because he is soo good...
I'm stepping out of this discussion it is pointless. Apparently Naniwa is The Devil, They Great Offender and worst person on the planet.
ps. If GomTV will punish Naniwa - then it is last time I am giving them any support.
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On December 14 2011 03:44 ticki wrote:
If you guys really don't understand why the Koreans don't like his behavior, you must be new to the scene or simply ignorant. To not give a fuck about the match and his 'rival' is pretty bad and he shouldn't be playing in the GSL
Edit: It's like playing a soccer game representing your country (USA v England or some shit) and not giving a shit because it's a friendly game.
Nobody gave a shit when they played the friendly games played before the TOP vs MVP finals
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On December 14 2011 03:57 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:53 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 03:51 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 14 2011 03:46 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 03:43 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 14 2011 03:38 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 03:37 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 14 2011 03:34 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 03:31 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 14 2011 03:29 zestzorb wrote:
[quote]
And if GOM actually bans him for 2 years u can't really blame them for doing that, you have to respect the fact that they organize a competition for players to compete. Yeah, for money. The match Naniwa competed for wasn't for money. It was for shits and giggles. He could have thrown it in many different ways. Nestea could have thrown it many ways. They had absolutely nothing to gain other than a televised win which ultimately amounts to nothing other a tiny bit of press. From GOM's PoV, they want to attract more viewers with quality games. Throwing games doesn't support their cause. So throw the matches if you'd like but don't whine if GOM bans you for two years. GSL has no pointless matches. Have you ever seen someone throw a match that wasn't because a player DIDN'T want to win money/prestige in the GSL? No incentive to win = no quality games. The format is stupid, no doubt. But GOM wouldn't prefer Naniwa acting like that anyway, would they? That's GOM's fault for overlooking this issue, not Naniwa's who was the player stuck in it. The system is bad and GOM should do something about it, but that doesn't mean Naniwa is right. He lacks professionalism and doesn't fit in with any tournament looking for professional competition. edit: think about it this way. If that was Boxer in Nani's shoes, what do you think he would do? And which action GOM would prefer, Boxer's or Nani's? Boxer in Naniwa's shoes? Make a line of bunkers from your base to your opponents. Well I think he might do something like that and still show us some entertaining game. Yesterday Hero was also 0-3 and in the last match he played honorably, didn't he? By show us an entertaining game I think you mean cause thousands of fans to storm out of a stadium in disgust at how fake a match is. Get it? Storm. I don't give a flying fuck if Hero played 'honorably' If hero decided to take off all his clothes, do a handstand and play with his feet my answer would be the same; blame the tournament, not naniwa. Like really, it doesn't matter who decided to play a match, it wasn't real. They didn't give a fuck. Naniwa was the only one to have the balls to basically say, "this match is pointless, I dont give a fuck."
I don't think I have anything more to discuss with you. The bottom line is, if GOM takes action, don't complain. It's their right to do whatever they want with their tournaments as long as it's not against the law.
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On December 14 2011 04:00 Nadarath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:56 Ponchey wrote:On December 14 2011 03:47 BlueyD wrote:
To people defending Naniwa's actions with a "clash of cultures" argument: Do you really want your culture represented by poor sportsmanship and a total disregard for the fans whose eyes make Naniwa having an esports job possible?
Hockey teams eliminated from the playoffs still play the last few games of the season. Sure, they might give that rookie goalie a few games or try new strategies, but they don't just blatantly throw the game because they know how wrong that is..
Naniwa should have played it out. If he didn't want to give it his best, he was free to do, say, a carrier build to entertain, or a cheesy build to end it quickly. These arguments pop up a lot. "He should have done a goofy build". But is there really a difference? I certainly think that there's no difference in Naniwa's eyes. You either play to win and do your best, or you don't care about winning or losing. And that is theoretically the same whether you are going mass hallucinated phoenix or just probe rushing and getting it over with. Yes, entertainment-wise, there is a difference. Yes, in the eyes of the Korean esports culture, there certainly seems to be difference. But you could argue with validity that there is no difference, and starting to talk about bans just feels way out of proportion. Aparently for thoes ppl if he would do sloppy zelot rush or bad 4gate it would be like sooo much better. Only because they could say that Nestea is their god and they pray to his poster every day and he beat Naniwa because he is soo good... I'm stepping out of this discussion it is pointless. Apparently Naniwa is The Devil, They Great Offender and worst person on the planet. ps. If GomTV will punish Naniwa - then it is last time I am giving them any support.
Hahahaha this post is so damn weird.
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On December 14 2011 03:50 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:48 Slardar wrote:If I may quote Nazgul from the LR Thread. On December 13 2011 21:06 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
No respect to viewers, producers, casters and anyone else involved in making this tournament a success.
If there were betting lines out of these matches it's absolutely unacceptable regarding that as well. I doubt Naniwa researched that so it's morally the same decision. This is the bottom line, he's a Professional. He gets paid to have a level head and not do these things, he gets paid by his team to fly him there, without GOM, Blizzard he wouldn't have A JOB. He spat in a lot of peoples faces for no reason, I would understand if he did it in an MLG Consolation match..... but a "Blizzard Cup" ... in KOREA... Televised..... VS NESTEA... that is a recipe to step on a lot of toes. He could've just 2 gate proxied if he didn't want to play, he couldn't even do that. Point is, people have to realize HE DID something wrong as a PROFESSIONAL and stop arguing he is blameless, he owes his fans, team, GOM & Blizzard & Nestea an apology. A player gets paid to practice and win, that is all. If they have other "obligations" to be paid, then something is wrong here. He already apologized, btw.
"A Player gets paid to practice and win" - Yes, that is merely one side of the coin though SafeAsCheese. The other side is his professionalism, respect to his job, the scene, and his employers and fans that allow him to do this job. Literally compare it with sports, teams don't refuse to play if they don't qualify for the playoffs, they get out there and do SOMETHING. In fact, even those games are somewhat exciting, because that is when a lot of the rookies play and have a chance to shine. There will always be people trying and giving their 110%. Naniwa is comparatively a rookie in Korea, this was his chance to show he's up to their level in skill and respect, a televised game vs Nestea is a rare opportunity to show your stuff. Instead he did perhaps the worst thing possible.
-Note to the thread- If you feel that the "Koreans" are blowing this out of proportion, don't in turn yourself blow it out of proportion claiming Koreans are immature, mob-mentality, etc.
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On December 14 2011 03:57 moyk wrote:I honestly don't understand how people can support let alone be accepting of what Naniwa did especially when this community wants e-sports to be taken seriously. In every professional sport (regardless of sport -- and yes, another sports reference) players have an obligation to at the very least show up and perform their job which is exactly what Naniwa didn't do and why so many people took such an offense to it. It is no question that e-sports has grown and is evident as pro-gamers now have decent salaries, sponsors, and tournaments that have huge prize pools, but it is these types of situations/behaviors and the fact that so many people of this community are accepting and trying to justify what he did was appropriate is what prevents or at the very least, slows down, the growth and legitimacy of this sport that we as a community love and spend so much time on. Also, since a lot of people don't seem to get the idea to all the sport analogies being thrown around, regardless of if it's bench players on the field, court, or ice, professional players are still obligated to show up and perform. Yes, teams in the NBA, NFL, NHL, and MLB bench/rest players at times when they're playing inconsequential games to prevent injuries and for a higher draft pick, there's still no denying the fact that the players are still showing up and doing their jobs. Even if they are the bench players or the franchise players who aren't playing for the majority of the game, all professional sports players PLAY TO WIN THE GAME. They don't just cop out and basically give a huge "F U" to their fans/viewers of their sport by saying "unless I have something to play for I can't perform my best... with nothing at stake people can't show their best games, I dont think it would satisfy people who bought GSL viewership" as Naniwa did in his Blizzard Cup interview. As a professional, even if you can't play your best, you still play as you're not only being paid to, but you at the very least owe it to your fans and fans of the sport that are giving you the opportunity to do so. The biggest difference between this and Stephano/Cloud at Dreamhack is how Naniwa blatantly and transparently threw the game. This was also essentially an invitational tournament for us fans to see the game's "allstars" to close out the year hence why they decided to televise the match even though it held no bearing on the tournament results as both were already eliminated. I mean who wouldn't want to see a Naniwa/Nestea game especially due to their recent "rivalry". Also, this game was being broadcasted to a MUCH larger audience as not only us foreigners were tuning in, but Koreans as well coupled with the fact that he basically threw the game so transparently, it's no surprise there's so much backlash. tldr; you play to win the game -- i dont care if you don't have any wins -- you go play to win
bravo
Naniwa is not pro and from reactions here in TL Esports in west is still a joke. Professional sports players do not do this.
'You play to win the game!'
if not, get out. Find something different to do.
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EPT
