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On December 14 2011 03:39 Hatorade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 02:20 Russano wrote:On December 14 2011 02:17 Hatorade wrote:On December 14 2011 02:06 Russano wrote:
The absurd thing with these arguments, is that people are upset with HOW naniwa did something, not with WHAT he did. They are just pissy he didn't lie well enough to fool them, or that he put no effort into it. Which is fucking ridiculous. While I'm not angry or upset at him I do think what he did was a bit stupid, and he likely does too now. The easier choice is to just put in the small amount of effort to "lie"(4 gate/proxy/cannon rush etc) out of respect for all the people who paid to watch them play,produce the tournament,cast the tournament etc. I'm sure many people can sympathize not having any motivation to not play a match when there's nothing at stake, but in order to remain professional in the eyes of many he needs to at least put in more effort than he did. Naniwa isn't required to stroke your or anyone elses ego. You can like him less all you want, but he shouldn't be penalized for it. First words in my post are that I'm not angry or upset at him, so I don't know why you think I like him less. I didn't say anything about a penalty in my post either. Did you quote the wrong person? My point was that this is going to look unprofessional and if he just 4 gated he would have been fine, he even said in his own interview if he were to do it over that he would have.
You were speaking on behalf of people who were upset wtih this, I was addressing the people you were speaking on behalf of. I'm too lazy to constnatly edit multiple quotes from different places all around this thread. My original argument that you quoted was that it was absurd that masking it with a 4 gate suddenly makes it better. (i.e. masking it wtih ego stroking makes it okay).
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To people defending Naniwa's actions with a "clash of cultures" argument: Do you really want your culture represented by poor sportsmanship and a total disregard for the fans whose eyes make Naniwa having an esports job possible?
Hockey teams eliminated from the playoffs still play the last few games of the season. Sure, they might give that rookie goalie a few games or try new strategies, but they don't just blatantly throw the game because they know how wrong that is..
Naniwa should have played it out. If he didn't want to give it his best, he was free to do, say, a carrier build to entertain, or a cheesy build to end it quickly.
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If I may quote Nazgul from the LR Thread.
On December 13 2011 21:06 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
No respect to viewers, producers, casters and anyone else involved in making this tournament a success.
If there were betting lines out of these matches it's absolutely unacceptable regarding that as well. I doubt Naniwa researched that so it's morally the same decision.
This is the bottom line, he's a Professional. He gets paid to have a level head and not do these things, he gets paid by his team to fly him there, without GOM, Blizzard,and the fans he wouldn't have A JOB. He spat in a lot of peoples faces for no reason, I would understand if he did it in a MLG Consolation match..... but a "Blizzard Cup" ... in KOREA... Televised..... VS NESTEA... that is a recipe to step on a lot of toes. He could've just 2 gate proxied if he didn't want to play, he couldn't even do that. Point is, people have to realize HE DID something wrong as a PROFESSIONAL and stop arguing he is blameless, he owes his fans, team, GOM & Blizzard & Nestea an apology. As much as I love Naniwa (Fan since Warcraft 3) it's not cool to disrespect everyone like that, I'm sorry.
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On December 14 2011 03:43 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:38 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 03:37 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 14 2011 03:34 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 03:31 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 14 2011 03:29 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 03:27 NDsOdapOp wrote:On December 14 2011 03:22 grudgeStar wrote:
I hope they ban him from competing in Korea for atleast 2 years. Are you kidding. He has constantly put up good results and is one of the best foreign players out there, not to mention that things like this have happened far worst and more frequently elsewhere, but simple because it was in Korea it was blown out of proportion. And you want to ban him from the biggest Starcraft tournament for 2 years because he made a discussion when he was upset and probably not thinking straight. How can you blame him for being demoralized, he had lost all his previous games, he had nothing to fight for, sure it would have been nice if he played the match, but you have to respect the fact that he is human. And if GOM actually bans him for 2 years u can't really blame them for doing that, you have to respect the fact that they organize a competition for players to compete. Yeah, for money. The match Naniwa competed for wasn't for money. It was for shits and giggles. He could have thrown it in many different ways. Nestea could have thrown it many ways. They had absolutely nothing to gain other than a televised win which ultimately amounts to nothing other a tiny bit of press. From GOM's PoV, they want to attract more viewers with quality games. Throwing games doesn't support their cause. So throw the matches if you'd like but don't whine if GOM bans you for two years. GSL has no pointless matches. Have you ever seen someone throw a match that wasn't because a player DIDN'T want to win money/prestige in the GSL? No incentive to win = no quality games. The format is stupid, no doubt. But GOM wouldn't prefer Naniwa acting like that anyway, would they? That's GOM's fault for overlooking this issue, not Naniwa's who was the player stuck in it.
The format is idiotic, I wholeheartedly agree. But by entering the tournament and playing in it, you AGREE TO IT. If Nani didn't like it, because it was possible to fall in this situation, he should have told GOM about it. GOM's format is bullshit and I hope they'd fix it, but that in no way excuses this behaviour. It's two different problems.
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Ok, you can say what Naniwa did was a bit unprofessional but some people are blowing this way out of proportion. If anything blame the format that creates meaningless games.
I complained about this in tournaments before where 9for example) if you finish 6th you get $200 and 7th you get $100. Where is the insentive to play?
Honestly the outrage over this just shows the immaturity of our community. Its like were all sitting at home with our pitchforks and torches ready, waiting for something to happen.
We need to chill out.
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really....???
who....cares.....
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On December 14 2011 03:48 Code wrote:
Ok, you can say what Naniwa did was a bit unprofessional but some people are blowing this way out of proportion. If anything blame the format that creates meaningless games.
I complained about this in tournaments before where 9for example) if you finish 6th you get $200 and 7th you get $100. Where is the insentive to play?
Honestly the outrage over this just shows the immaturity of our community. Its like were all sitting at home with our pitchforks and torches ready, waiting for something to happen.
We need to chill out.
^ This. It was mildly unprofessional at best. To say he spat in the face of korean culture or the tournament or the fans OVER A PROBE RUSH, is so fucking absurd that I don't even think my brain can process it.
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On December 14 2011 03:48 Slardar wrote:If I may quote Nazgul from the LR Thread. Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 21:06 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
No respect to viewers, producers, casters and anyone else involved in making this tournament a success.
If there were betting lines out of these matches it's absolutely unacceptable regarding that as well. I doubt Naniwa researched that so it's morally the same decision. This is the bottom line, he's a Professional. He gets paid to have a level head and not do these things, he gets paid by his team to fly him there, without GOM, Blizzard he wouldn't have A JOB. He spat in a lot of peoples faces for no reason, I would understand if he did it in an MLG Consolation match..... but a "Blizzard Cup" ... in KOREA... Televised..... VS NESTEA... that is a recipe to step on a lot of toes. He could've just 2 gate proxied if he didn't want to play, he couldn't even do that. Point is, people have to realize HE DID something wrong as a PROFESSIONAL and stop arguing he is blameless, he owes his fans, team, GOM & Blizzard & Nestea an apology.
A player gets paid to practice and win, that is all. If they have other "obligations" to be paid, then something is wrong here.
He already apologized, btw.
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On December 14 2011 03:42 Angel_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:37 Nadarath wrote:On December 14 2011 03:31 poorcloud wrote:On December 14 2011 03:27 Nadarath wrote:
Koreans are so high up their asses with whole respect yet they blew everything out of proportions. They are actually trolls on so many occasions. If Korean would do probe rush we wouldn't here anything. But since this was Evil Naniwa - Evil foreigner - he should be banned punished and whole lot of different things.
I've been watching SC2 outside of Korea alot. Weekly tournaments in EU are really great value and are as much entertaining as watching GomTV. For me if Koreans would close and cut off from rest of the world it would make no change. I dont like their culture and i don't like they way they try to enforce it on other people.
I haven't heard of scandal as big as setting up matches in SC:BW outside of Korea. So maybe they shouldn't act suddenly like probe rushing is disrespectful. .... Lots of hate in your post. And i guess you don't plan to visit many other countries too, since you don't care about the culture of others and don't mind just stepping all over it. Anyone would be pissed if some foreigner comes over and does something which your society deems disrespectful. Your society included. Lets not put ourselves on a moral high ground here... I'm not gonna deny my hate. Also I never stated that I don't care about other cultures. But other cultures like Koreans should learn to understand Western culture. Thing should be mutual. Yet from what I see - it only works one way. We need to respect Koreans why they do their stuff and we should not say a word. Also if You really think that doing a probe rush is disrespectful to Korean society - then I really think you are going to way out of proportions with this. And that is where all my hate comes from. please tell me it's not your opinion that only giving a real effort when there's some direct monetary gain is your example of "Western culture that koreans should understand". i hope he is penalized in some way. he is not a professional. that is not how a professional is supposed to act. and i hope people wake up and realize that there is a standard we should expect from our players and eachother, and not tolerate this kind of shit when it happens. or at the very least, not excuse it.
That is BS. I do not agree with that statement at all.
Giving effort when it matters is important. Pretending to try in a match that does not matter to tournament at all is just hypocrisy.
Did you even look at this from other side ? Naniwa was only one that was not afraid to do openly something that everyone is whispering. I'm yet to see pro-gamer from outside of Korea saying that Naniwa did something bad.
What Naniwa did was - stupid, silly, not smart - but not in any way did he broke any rules or intentionally offended anyone.
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On December 14 2011 03:43 zestzorb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:40 Ponchey wrote:
From GOM's PoV, they want to attract more viewers with quality games. Throwing games doesn't support their cause. So throw the matches if you'd like but don't whine if GOM bans you for two years.
Yeah, but from a "getting more viewers" perspective. Do you think more or less people will tune in to watch Naniwa's Code S matches after this? Do you think more or less viewers in total would tune in if they banned Naniwa for 2 years? I know one viewer they would lose with such a move. Pretty interesting. If they bans Naniwa they would lose some foreign fans for sure, but if they keep him there might be some reaction from korean fans?
But Korean fans wouldn't stop watching his games. On the contrary, they would probably gather in masses to see their fellow Koreans take on and (try to) defeat Naniwa.
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On December 14 2011 03:46 zestzorb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:43 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 14 2011 03:38 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 03:37 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 14 2011 03:34 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 03:31 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 14 2011 03:29 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 03:27 NDsOdapOp wrote:On December 14 2011 03:22 grudgeStar wrote:
I hope they ban him from competing in Korea for atleast 2 years. Are you kidding. He has constantly put up good results and is one of the best foreign players out there, not to mention that things like this have happened far worst and more frequently elsewhere, but simple because it was in Korea it was blown out of proportion. And you want to ban him from the biggest Starcraft tournament for 2 years because he made a discussion when he was upset and probably not thinking straight. How can you blame him for being demoralized, he had lost all his previous games, he had nothing to fight for, sure it would have been nice if he played the match, but you have to respect the fact that he is human. And if GOM actually bans him for 2 years u can't really blame them for doing that, you have to respect the fact that they organize a competition for players to compete. Yeah, for money. The match Naniwa competed for wasn't for money. It was for shits and giggles. He could have thrown it in many different ways. Nestea could have thrown it many ways. They had absolutely nothing to gain other than a televised win which ultimately amounts to nothing other a tiny bit of press. From GOM's PoV, they want to attract more viewers with quality games. Throwing games doesn't support their cause. So throw the matches if you'd like but don't whine if GOM bans you for two years. GSL has no pointless matches. Have you ever seen someone throw a match that wasn't because a player DIDN'T want to win money/prestige in the GSL? No incentive to win = no quality games. The format is stupid, no doubt. But GOM wouldn't prefer Naniwa acting like that anyway, would they? That's GOM's fault for overlooking this issue, not Naniwa's who was the player stuck in it. The system is bad and GOM should do something about it, but that doesn't mean Naniwa is right. He lacks professionalism and doesn't fit in with any tournament looking for professional competition. edit: think about it this way. If that was Boxer in Nani's shoes, what do you think he would do? And which action GOM would prefer, Boxer's or Nani's?
Boxer in Naniwa's shoes? Make a line of bunkers from your base to your opponents.
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Im pretty sure that this is going to have consequences for him. Some people might find it funny and all that, but its a korean tournament taking place in korea, and in their culture this is not considered funny, and they are the ones that decide~~
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Also, naniwa clearly barely understands our society's social conceptions and norms, why is everyone flabergasted that he didn't realize this would be a big deal for koreans?
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Honestly, what this tells me is that the entire Korean scene is composed of unprofessional idiots with a pronounced mob-mentality. Ok, Naniwa disrespected the tournament and let down his fans by doing what he did. It's bad, we get it. However, does this really necessitate everyone and their mother angrily tweeting about it, insulting him and demanding that GOM and Blizzard (lol, seriously) discipline him somehow? Do the coaches really need to get involved in this shitstorm? You'd think they'd lynch him and burn him at the stake if they could.
I also have a sneaking suspicion that Naniwa is partially correct about this being about him as a person more than anything else. It's like they were all waiting for an opportunity, bottling up their anger at the terrible foreigner who dared thumb down Nestea in a live event.
TLDR: All the people participating in this witchhunt are worse than Naniwa himself in my book. Way to blow shit out of proportion.
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Blame the format? When did the gamers become so stupid...the format is normal, in every sport in the world it is normal to play out all the games, no matter the fact that they do not matter. You are payed to play them, the GOM has money invested around their broadcast schedules and if the plan is to play 10 games, then you play 10 fucking games. Especially if you are playing against a player like Nestea, and your team is hyping your match as a grudge match of century.
I really liked Naniwa, but this was just an imature and unproffesional move. I hope he gets laughed at at group picking.
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On December 14 2011 03:44 ticki wrote:
If you guys really don't understand why the Koreans don't like his behavior, you must be new to the scene or simply ignorant. To not give a fuck about the match and his 'rival' is pretty bad and he shouldn't be playing in the GSL
Edit: It's like playing a soccer game representing your country (USA v England or some shit) and not giving a shit because it's a friendly game.
You would be surprised how often that happens in off-season. If National team does not play in World Cup or Euro Cup in next year they tend to send 3rd squad. Mediocre players who wont stand a chance in World Cup.
And again - Blizzard Cup is nowhere near to be compared to World Cup. It is just a tournament.
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On December 14 2011 03:51 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:46 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 03:43 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 14 2011 03:38 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 03:37 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 14 2011 03:34 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 03:31 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 14 2011 03:29 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 03:27 NDsOdapOp wrote:On December 14 2011 03:22 grudgeStar wrote:
I hope they ban him from competing in Korea for atleast 2 years. Are you kidding. He has constantly put up good results and is one of the best foreign players out there, not to mention that things like this have happened far worst and more frequently elsewhere, but simple because it was in Korea it was blown out of proportion. And you want to ban him from the biggest Starcraft tournament for 2 years because he made a discussion when he was upset and probably not thinking straight. How can you blame him for being demoralized, he had lost all his previous games, he had nothing to fight for, sure it would have been nice if he played the match, but you have to respect the fact that he is human. And if GOM actually bans him for 2 years u can't really blame them for doing that, you have to respect the fact that they organize a competition for players to compete. Yeah, for money. The match Naniwa competed for wasn't for money. It was for shits and giggles. He could have thrown it in many different ways. Nestea could have thrown it many ways. They had absolutely nothing to gain other than a televised win which ultimately amounts to nothing other a tiny bit of press. From GOM's PoV, they want to attract more viewers with quality games. Throwing games doesn't support their cause. So throw the matches if you'd like but don't whine if GOM bans you for two years. GSL has no pointless matches. Have you ever seen someone throw a match that wasn't because a player DIDN'T want to win money/prestige in the GSL? No incentive to win = no quality games. The format is stupid, no doubt. But GOM wouldn't prefer Naniwa acting like that anyway, would they? That's GOM's fault for overlooking this issue, not Naniwa's who was the player stuck in it. The system is bad and GOM should do something about it, but that doesn't mean Naniwa is right. He lacks professionalism and doesn't fit in with any tournament looking for professional competition. edit: think about it this way. If that was Boxer in Nani's shoes, what do you think he would do? And which action GOM would prefer, Boxer's or Nani's? Boxer in Naniwa's shoes? Make a line of bunkers from your base to your opponents.
Well I think he might do something like that and still show us some entertaining game. Yesterday Hero was also 0-3 and in the last match he played honorably, didn't he?
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On December 14 2011 03:52 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Im pretty sure that this is going to have consequences for him. Some people might find it funny and all that, but its a korean tournament taking place in korea, and in their culture this is not considered funny, and they are the ones that decide~~
Unfortunately their culture is also known for having a shit sense of humor, so I wouldn't be surprised if it does turn out really badly for him.
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As stupid as that game was in my eyes, if GOM actually takes some sort of action against Naniwa, as is suggested in the article, I will most definitely stop supporting their tournaments.
I'm not familiar with the relationship that exists between GOM and the players, but unless there's some sort of clause in a contract between the two parties that brings up a situation like this, Naniwa has done nothing wrong in my opinion.
In ANY competitive game or sport, if the match or whatever has no real meaning behind it, the player(s) are less inclined to give a shit about it.
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On December 14 2011 03:31 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:29 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 03:27 NDsOdapOp wrote:On December 14 2011 03:22 grudgeStar wrote:
I hope they ban him from competing in Korea for atleast 2 years. Are you kidding. He has constantly put up good results and is one of the best foreign players out there, not to mention that things like this have happened far worst and more frequently elsewhere, but simple because it was in Korea it was blown out of proportion. And you want to ban him from the biggest Starcraft tournament for 2 years because he made a discussion when he was upset and probably not thinking straight. How can you blame him for being demoralized, he had lost all his previous games, he had nothing to fight for, sure it would have been nice if he played the match, but you have to respect the fact that he is human. And if GOM actually bans him for 2 years u can't really blame them for doing that, you have to respect the fact that they organize a competition for players to compete. Yeah, for money. The match Naniwa competed for wasn't for money. It was for shits and giggles. He could have thrown it in many different ways. Nestea could have thrown it many ways. They had absolutely nothing to gain other than a televised win which ultimately amounts to nothing other a tiny bit of press.
Well if he had played it and put up a good game, he would have gain respect, that's better than nothing right?
Unless he thinks respect is too cheap, so he doesn't mind losing it either.
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EPT
