|
We have issued a clarification to this article after discussion with staff, read here - Heyoka |
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote:
wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real. the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
nobody is asking you.
|
On November 28 2011 19:36 Lutto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 19:33 Zlasher wrote:On November 28 2011 19:23 Lutto wrote:On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote:
How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything... I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house. Yes I agree with what you said, it was only the "He didnt make any large run" part I didnt like since it did pay off for him in the start. Ofc teams should makes houses and EG house have been good for them but it can also be better if they train better (This is the reason the swedish house died is becuse they didnt really train hard they just played and nothing more) But yes I agree with what you say
the "He didnt make any large run" is in reference to this MLG, but there are plenty of top players that didn't make a run like that. Sjow was the highest placing foreigner was it two MLG's ago at Raleigh, and he went a fast two and out, as did Kiwikaki, Select, Boxer, Slush, Ret, Rain, and Bomber.
|
If the intention was to create drama, you played very clever, sir.
|
On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote:
wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real. the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
Ok forget incontrols comments, read every other post in this thread, jinros wins were long ago, obviously out of the scope of this article if he thinks EG isn't doint well.
|
On November 28 2011 19:43 k10forgotten wrote:
If the intention was to create drama, you played very clever, sir.
There can't be a day that goes by without drama that's for sure.
|
Is there a good reason to spoil a featured article with a paragraph that is nothing but a flamebait? Not only do you randomly hit on EG without a good reason, you also devalue the rest of the article with it. I can't see a justification for either of the two.
|
On November 28 2011 19:33 Zlasher wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 19:23 Lutto wrote:On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote:
How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything... I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house.
I was on incontrols stream when he got mad about this. All you do is bring up his arguments. There is no doubt that Jinro's succes in gsl can be attributed to his practice in the ogs house. Has nothing to do with deserving it.
Jinro is not a good example. Neither is TLO's house in sweden. That wasn't a even a teamhouse, it was just a bunch if friends living and practicing together, completely different from the EG house wich formed for the reason of making the eg members better. And after that you really have no more arguments.
I actually remember incontrol himself being critical on sotg towards some ppl that formed teamhouses. "You're not just gonna get good because you live in the same house" etc.
Why to not invest in the teamhouse? Well im sure it costs money and might not give them much return. Now im sure that the EG teamhouse was a good idea for many reasons, but you can't get all mad when ppl claim that it hasn't done much as far as actually getting the players better.
|
On November 28 2011 19:40 Whiteman103 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 19:38 NoobSkills wrote:On November 28 2011 19:23 Lutto wrote:On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote:
How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything... No it doesn't count. Him winning using an abusing TvZ style and a mech style that nobody adapted against in the other match up's didn't make him the better player for playing in a team house it made him a player who was winning from abuse and lack of smart opponents. When he did wind up facing the decent Code S players he got stomped. It has been said by many that there are plenty of people in Code S who shouldn't be there. It was true back then and it will probably still be true next season even with this format change. Meanwhile their article really isn't saying the team house wasn't a good idea, but pointing out that the house existing isn't enough. It seems like these players are getting worse at match ups despite not only playing in a house together, but after the team has recruited two very good players (huk and puma). EG is still my favorite team, but I would really like a couple more players (machine, inc, demus) to make runs deeper in these tournaments tired of having to watch Puma barely get beat, idra lose series to the accidental gg slip, and Huk continue to Boss it out, but tunnel vision his way out of an advantage. i dont think he was abusing anytihng he was just one of the first players to play a macro style tarren.
Let me rewrite it.
TvZ - abusive (now nerfed) bunker rushes.
TvT and TvP - mech style that enemies LET run them over. When someone thought "hey my normal strategy won't work because he isn't using a normal strategy let me do something else" it was over and both times he was stopped and hard.
So, he made it to two Ro4's because Blizzard made T OP and some people in Code S have no brains. Exaggerated, but true.
|
Dude this is not the school paper news, they shouldn't let you write, that part about EG is just dumb. Got nothin to do with news, it's just flaming and it's not good for anyone. Stop upseting esports
|
Yikes. I don't know about anyone else but I get a little frazzled whenever someone talks about how some team (like EG) needs to cut a player because they are not posting results and pick up other players with the money. Or even just the cutting part. I have faith in the teams managers decision as to why they have the players that they do and I trust that they have more information on the subject than I do. So saying that someone needs to get cut off from a team and given the boot because they aren't doing so well.... I mean. Why? Why does it matter to you what players the team fields? Do you even consider what that person might feel if they read your comment? Why not just support the player because he is trying to make a professional career out of the game we all love? Instead of hating on him and saying that he pretty much needs to get kicked out of the scene. I do not understand it. Please enlighten me.
|
On the EG house:
- Demuslim has probably been the biggest benefactor of the team house as his play really skyrocketed during his stay. I believe he's had some visa problems recently, so he hasn't been able to prove it, but Incontrol stated not too long ago that Demuslim was probably the team ace at this point (he may have been excluding Huk and/or Puma)... then Idra went to China and owned some face. Demuslim was a decent player before EG, but if he's the beast that some say he is now, he's got to be considered a homegrown EG talent.
- Idra went on a big slump after leaving Korea, but in the EG team house he's managed to break out of that slump and should be considered a top 5 foreigner. Would he have done the same outside the EG team house? Maybe.
- Huk, often considered the best of all the foreigners, doesn't normally stay at the team house. However, when he plays in NA tournaments, he can be found at the EG team house getting practice and getting used to the time-zone shift. You shouldn't underestimate the effect the team house may have had on Huk before he won in Orlando.
- Puma, ditto for any NA tournament. Practice in a hotel on a laptop(?) and questionable internet connection or practice in a team house for the days leading up to a tournament? You decide.
The team house has had a different effect on everybody involved. Sure, it's true that the training regime used at the EG house has benefitted some like Demuslim a lot more than it has benefitted others. And maybe doing something like bringing in a full-time coach would help some of the guys, but I think it would also majorly turn off Idra and possibly a few others. However, essentially calling people scrubs for losing to players that don't live in team houses is just plain stupid. Gatored beat a number of quality Koreans (you note them yourself!) and he's not in a team house. Time to cut DRG, Ganzi, and TOP, right?
Let's face it, in SC2, the mechanical skill cap is lower than BW. Luckily, that leaves a lot more room for wins based on strategy. However, strategy is a lot more volatile than mechanics. So SC2's pro-scene will probably always be more volatile than BW's (and even the vast majority of the top BW pros didn't get above 60% win rates). There is only one team house in the world that's producing amazing individual results and that's IM. But even they are reliant on two people (MVP, Nestea) for those results with LosirA and Happy being a bit behind. Everyone else on IM (8-13 other people according to Liquipedia) is code A or lower. Should we judge IM by YongHwa, Seed, and Sopia's results and ask them why they bother having a team house? Slayers gobbles up a ton of talent and has a lot of code S players, but still only has 1 GSL code S win and a lot of people on the outside looking in. Should they break up the team house too?
Do you now realize how stupid the initial argument was?
To be fair, I may agree that things could be done differently at the EG house to improve overall results. However, that wasn't the argument that was made. No matter what they do, EG is still going to have a pretty wide range of results, just like every other team out there.
|
On November 28 2011 19:46 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 19:40 Whiteman103 wrote:On November 28 2011 19:38 NoobSkills wrote:On November 28 2011 19:23 Lutto wrote:On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote:
How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything... No it doesn't count. Him winning using an abusing TvZ style and a mech style that nobody adapted against in the other match up's didn't make him the better player for playing in a team house it made him a player who was winning from abuse and lack of smart opponents. When he did wind up facing the decent Code S players he got stomped. It has been said by many that there are plenty of people in Code S who shouldn't be there. It was true back then and it will probably still be true next season even with this format change. Meanwhile their article really isn't saying the team house wasn't a good idea, but pointing out that the house existing isn't enough. It seems like these players are getting worse at match ups despite not only playing in a house together, but after the team has recruited two very good players (huk and puma). EG is still my favorite team, but I would really like a couple more players (machine, inc, demus) to make runs deeper in these tournaments tired of having to watch Puma barely get beat, idra lose series to the accidental gg slip, and Huk continue to Boss it out, but tunnel vision his way out of an advantage. i dont think he was abusing anytihng he was just one of the first players to play a macro style tarren. Let me rewrite it. TvZ - abusive (now nerfed) bunker rushes. TvT and TvP - mech style that enemies LET run them over. When someone thought "hey my normal strategy won't work because he isn't using a normal strategy let me do something else" it was over and both times he was stopped and hard.
You play to win if youre not then youre dumb, he was still playing good and youre stupid if you think different.. he did not do this 100% of the games during his 2 runs
so please get out
|
On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote:
wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real. the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
Can you really say Huk is EG's best performing player? Idra took down IEM and Asus, Huk won MLG, Puma won IEM and just got 2nd at DH (where he took out Idra and Huk). They are all right up there. Also Idra and Puma were much more involved in their team leagues which they did well in.
|
lol at idra in the leenocktopus pic
|
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
To be fair, do we ever talk about the Sweden house and what results that has shown? What was it, Haypro TLO Sjow and Morrow that lived there? I heard the house is disbanded now but...do you really expect every single person to make a hugely deep run upsetting top koreans just because they live in a house? How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
A practice house does not results make. Like others have mentioned, Idra was slumping HARD around the time of Anaheim, and it brings him back up to the status at which we expect Idra, a truly top foreign contender in every tournament.
Morrow has been non existant for months, Sjow, didn't he go two and out at MLG Providence? TLO?
I think everyone in the house and not just that but the sponsors of that house will say its a worthy investment, to suggest that its not worth its cost just purely due to one MLG tournaments results, which were where you'd expect them to be, is a pretty ludicrous claim and sure adds to the fire of the whole TL EG rivalry just due to the fact that a full time TL Staffer writes this on a post-tournament writeup that hits the front featured section.
I think both team houses (EG and the Swedish one) have similar problem - as far as i know they dont/ didnt have a coach that would regulate the training. Correct me if im wrong about that part Zlasher.
oGs-TL house did provide some interesting results - it made HuK into a star and also shown us that not every western pro could manage the korean house training regiment. Lots of liquid guys pulling out of korea - Haypro, Ret, TLO, Sheth (well he was part of FXO at that time. But he clearly stated that living in korean type team house wasn't for him).
Ps you forgot to mention the ex root team house - Catz, Drewbie and some other guys i don't remember now and FXO Malaysian/ Singaporean ? team house.
Most of those haven't produce good results (not sure about that FXO house).
The root house ceased to exist but it created one of the strongest NA 2v2 teams (Catz and Drewbie).
TL house... Well it created the new EG star and also allowed TL to pick up koreans for the team.
To be honest we would need some complete unbiased article about the effect of western team-houses.
|
Wasn't there a Redbull LAN not long ago that promoted training, which also included some liquid players? I'm pretty sure everyone that attended agreed that the event was a success to some degree. However White-ra said the event was too short and that people were only getting the benefits of working and training together towards the end. Imagine that as a team training house? hmm....
If you're arguing whether training online can produce that same results anyway? I am sure if you asked all the players that attended the Redbull event, all the players would favour a training house. It's the camaraderie. The basic human element of face to face contact, which can go a long way.
I don't know the exact practice regime of EG. However, when have all the EG players been in the house at the exact same time anyway? The house seems to be more there for convenience and accessability considering how much some of their players travel.
I still reckon the EG players have benefited greatly from this setup, regardless of the calibre of player, because in any team you're going to have your star players. I definitely can tell Demuslim has improved from this. Regardless what it comes down to is the players mental state/strength/drive/ability, which a training house can only help so much.
|
On November 28 2011 19:46 skyrunner wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 19:33 Zlasher wrote:On November 28 2011 19:23 Lutto wrote:On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote:
How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything... I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house. I was on incontrols stream when he got mad about this. All you do is bring up his arguments. There is no doubt that Jinro's succes in gsl can be attributed to his practice in the ogs house. Has nothing to do with deserving it. Jinro is not a good example. Neither is TLO's house in sweden. That wasn't a even a teamhouse, it was just a bunch if friends living and practicing together, completely different from the EG house wich formed for the reason of making the eg members better. And after that you really have no more arguments. I actually remember incontrol himself being critical on sotg towards some ppl that formed teamhouses. "You're not just gonna get good because you live in the same house" etc. Why to not invest in the teamhouse? Well im sure it costs money and might not give them much return. Now im sure that the EG teamhouse was a good idea for many reasons, but you can't get all mad when ppl claim that it hasn't done much as far as actually getting the players better.
Yes you can because the players have gotten better. No it hasn't turned Axslav and StrifeCro into champions, but the estro house didn't turn Idra into a BW great in Korea either. But both houses made those players better.
|
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote:
[...]
It is where serious players get more serious and do the best they can to train and get better. It is where legitimate media is produced, serious practice is had and better results are posted..
[...]
But that's exactly what the article is questioning - maybe I misunderstood your point, but are you saying that even if people don't produce better results, they still get practice and better results?
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the EG house and other houses and I do think it was wrong to call out EG in particular.
But the question remains: Are team houses actually better practice environments?
Because EG has set a precedent with a North American house (of these proportions), it is very important to closely look at the results and see if it pays off. Not just for EG but for the whole ESPORTS community. We need to know if such a model is viable and efficient.
Just the players saying they feel like they get better practice is not enough. Though 3 months is too short a time to judge, I feel.
EDIT: Also, I don't think the right response is "Well, maybe we aren't doing so great, but look at THIS team". That just doesn't help anybody.
|
On November 28 2011 19:44 Werk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote:
wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real. the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!.. Ok forget incontrols comments, read every other post in this thread, jinros wins were long ago, obviously out of the scope of this article if he thinks EG isn't doint well.
I think its redicilous how a Offical EG member can't handle alittle news post without ripping on other teams, its a NEWS site, with articles and stuff. if TMZ post something about Lady gaga, do you really think she would go berzerk and call out other singers? i don't agree with the full post about the EG members, but not a single person can deny that some of the players haven't preformed aswell as expected, some have and thats good. but Incontrol Throwing rocks at other people because the house is being questioned is stupid and unprofessional as hell.
|
On November 28 2011 19:46 skyrunner wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 19:33 Zlasher wrote:On November 28 2011 19:23 Lutto wrote:On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote:
How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything... I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house. Jinro is not a good example. Neither is TLO's house in sweden. That wasn't a even a teamhouse, it was just a bunch if friends living and practicing together, completely different from the EG house wich formed for the reason of making the eg members better.
I can't speak for EG but I'm pretty sure the Team House was formed in order to give their players an opportunity to truly become full time players and not live in the esports model of pre 2010. It also creates a central hub for their business as well as media production to occur, along with that, the reason is to give the players the practice environment of a Korean pro-house while still being in the West, where esports has had the explosion, not in Korea. The goal is not to here and now outright make players better, a few walls and a roof can't do that, but it can provide the scenario to get better. After 3-4 months of being in the house can we really say any of those players have gotten worse? Not only are they all streaming now but we, once again, have seen Idra break out of a slump, something a team house hasn't done for other players on other teams with the opportunity to be in a team house. That's just the most obvious example of someone who's gotten better as a result.
Not to mention how can we possibly be judging ALL of these houses based on one event? When you look at a list of the players who went two and out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
