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On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote:
Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ?
If your argument is that stream cheating should be an assumed risk, I would agree with you to some extent; however, it appears that your argument is based only on a financial platform. Are you saying that it would be "okay" if someone streamed with no personal gain in mind? Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions. While parameters of a situation change ethical debates frequently (think: stealing medication to save a life of another) I don't believe we're going to find such a beneficent set of circumstances occuring in stream cheating. So your debate shouldn't be about assumed risk or the parameters of the situation, it should be able whether cheating is acceptable or not. I guess in your case it's okay. I can't argue with that opinion, but I think it's unfair to place responsibility on the streamers.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 16 2011 10:17 Satire wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote:
Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ? If your argument is that stream cheating should be an assumed risk, I would agree with you to some extent; however, it appears that your argument is based only on a financial platform. Are you saying that it would be "okay" if someone streamed with no personal gain in mind? Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions. While parameters of a situation change ethical debates frequently (think: stealing medication to save a life of another) I don't believe we're going to find such a beneficent set of circumstances occuring in stream cheating. So your debate shouldn't be about assumed risk or the parameters of the situation, it should be able whether cheating is acceptable or not. I guess in your case it's okay. I can't argue with that opinion, but I think it's unfair to place responsibility on the streamers.
This precisely, well said.
I also don't think that argument condones stream cheaters either, at all.
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On November 16 2011 08:37 Treva wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 08:25 Harstem wrote:On November 16 2011 08:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
So I get streamsniped sometimes, which is amusing because I am in Gold league. It's actually quite a problem for me, makes the matches much tougher because as a gold league player my play is very limited in terms of what I can reliably do so I am far more predictable if people have watched my stream and gotten an idea of my playstyle. I don't really begrudge people for doing it but for a time I did run a short 1 minute delay on my stream to prevent it from happening because it was causing me difficulties at the time. Hi Totalbiscuit, I get that it sometimes is annoying, but is it a good enough reason to just blindly call someone a stream cheater? No it's not a good enough reason for calling someone a stream cheater, however I don't really see how you can just assume everyone should give you the benefit of the doubt that you are honest with your sniping. With something like stream sniping the only thing we really have to go off of in terms of evidence is "You stream cheat." "No I don't.". Unfortunately that's not much to go on so people tend to have their own personal opinions. It is unfair to be called a cheater when you snipe someone's stream but I can't really understand how you don't see why people aren't going to give you the benefit of the doubt, especially with someone like IncontroL and his past experiences with stream snipers.
exactly my thoughts on this.
I mean, yes, you might be that one good non-cheating guy out there, however, Incontrol is right when he says that the world isn't as nice as you think it is. The facts are, people that stream snipe can also stream cheat very easily (just leave the stream open, anyways, no one knows what's going on in your computer, right?).
Imagine this, you are in a room with another guy sitting in the room and you just brought your lunch. You leave 2 mins to go buy something to drink with it, you come back and the lunch is gone, along with the guy. Well, shit that's a bummer!! you may rage a bit, might ruin your day and make you wonder about where is humanity going nowadays, and maybe you will even beat up your partner more than usual at your karate session that afternoon , but, other than that, your just gonna buy another one and be done with it . However, ever gonna leave your lunch alone again in the same situation? Hell no!!!! (I know, maybe not the best example, but it's the best I could come up with in 5 mins to illustrate my point. DISCLAMER: I am in no way saying that a ladder game for a pro is his lunch or like his lunch, take the example for what it is. With that said, don't go stealing people's lunch either ^^)
My point is, stream sniping and stream cheating may be different, buy they are related enough that people will never trust you. You stated your motivations on why you stream snipe, but can you seriously blame anyone of labeling you as a cheater when, in their experience, 95% of those snipers also cheat and that absolutely noone can really verify what you are really doing? I know, you are gonna tell me that saying that you cheat when you don't is not cool, and it's not. However, if you want to have recognition that way then you better be ready when noone will trust you, unless you stream yourself playing without cheating, or something. If you don't want this to happen, you can always try to hit those high level players normally, by having a high enough MMR so it's not only that you COULD play against them if you timed yourself well enough, but more like that they WILL hit you when you are in there, because you are at their level anyways (maybe you already are, but it seems to me that if you were hitting a pro every time you ladder, then you would not be sniping). In that case, no one will dare say anything about you.
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On November 16 2011 10:06 moocow2009 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 09:50 Uncultured wrote:
I'm really amazed at the flagrant disregard for this persons career. Calling him a stream-cheater because he snipes can be very detrimental to his future, if he were to want to become a pro. Basically Incontrols argument comes down to a few different things, because he's changed it a couple times in this thread.
At first his argument was that since there's a likelihood and easy gap to jump from being a sniper, to a cheater, that it's okay to call someone a cheater without evidence of them doing so.
Then he argued that it's okay to call him a cheater because he spammed the chat in-game with his twitter, and was addressing incontrol's viewers, saying that he sniped.
Then he agreed with another poster, who said to take things from incontrols perspective; that he has to deal with the annoyance of steam-cheaters, and thus, because he has to deal with this annoyance it's okay to call someone who doesn't cheat, a cheater.
How are any of these things justification of calling another player, who's at the top, and on a team, and could possibly have a career in starcraft, a cheater, and possibly slander their name and reputation for the future?
First of all, you're grossly taking Incontrol's statements out of context (and no, he didn't change his opinion, he just said the same thing in many different ways to clarify it). What he actually said was that if someone stream-snipes, there's no real reason for him, or anyone, to assume that the person isn't also stream-cheating. They can't just say, "Oh, you have no proof that I was cheating," since it's impossible to get proof. The burden lies on the sniper to prove they aren't cheating, and if they don't want to deal with it, they shouldn't snipe. Secondly, I seriously doubt that this will hurt his career, if he decides to make one in starcraft -- I think you're placing too much weight on a single accusation. Incontrol didn't go out of the way to attack him -- he in fact, did not post about it anywhere. If the accusee hadn't brought it up, I know that I personally would never have known about it. Do you really think that months or a year later, some team wthat is considering signing on Harstem here is going to look back and think, "Oh, Incontrol called him a cheater once on his stream. Better not hire him after all"? Of course not. They'll probably take a look at his record of sniping, but if there's no proof that Incontrol was right when he said that, then they'll dismiss it.
Requote from me earlier in the thread:
"Also, don't take this as me jumping down your throat, I actually have no idea what went on in that game. For all I know all you said was "He's probably cheating, because he's stream sniping" in the game, and that isn't an accusation that someone should really even worry about. It's the idea, from what you said earlier in the thread, that everyone who stream snipes is undoubtedly going to make the jump to stream cheater that I take issue with."
I get it. I'm just saying that calling someone a cheater, just because other people cheat, is incredibly fallacious. I'm not arguing that people shouldn't be ready to accept the fact that they'll be called a cheater by people making fallacious arguments.
I'm not even saying it's wrong for complete strangers to do that. I'm just disappointed that people with actual clout, and fans, like Incontrol, who's words may have an effect, are also saying it.
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So there's stream cheating, which of course is bad.
On the other hand there's stream sniping, i.e. abusing someone elses popularity to boost your ego.
I see the difference but i don't see how any of those is a good thing.
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Tbh, I dont mind stream sniping. I think it's fine that lesser known people wanna face the superstars but cheating is so so wrong.
The issue is also that if you know that you got sniped you will asume that they will watch the stream while they play in order to get the win
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On November 16 2011 10:39 Broodwurst wrote:
So there's stream cheating, which of course is bad.
On the other hand there's stream sniping, i.e. abusing someone elses popularity to boost your ego.
I see the difference but i don't see how any of those is a good thing.
stream sniping can get you a game vs a pro...its good practice if you actually give a damn about improving, but yeah most do it for the 15 minutes of fame.
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I only have one big problem with stream sniping. You’re stealing games from other people who also want to play the pros but don’t feel right about stream sniping. That alone is, to me, a selfish enough act that you shouldn’t do it, but it’s up to you of course.
Just don’t expect people to think it’s fine, because it’s certainly morally ambiguous whether you would never consider cheating or not.
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On November 16 2011 10:17 Satire wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote:
Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ? If your argument is that stream cheating should be an assumed risk, I would agree with you to some extent; however, it appears that your argument is based only on a financial platform. Are you saying that it would be "okay" if someone streamed with no personal gain in mind? Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions. While parameters of a situation change ethical debates frequently (think: stealing medication to save a life of another) I don't believe we're going to find such a beneficent set of circumstances occuring in stream cheating. So your debate shouldn't be about assumed risk or the parameters of the situation, it should be able whether cheating is acceptable or not. I guess in your case it's okay. I can't argue with that opinion, but I think it's unfair to place responsibility on the streamers.
The only reason I mentioned the financial aspect is the assumption that the streamer has made a decision to stream, even though that would open them up to stream "cheating", but they go ahead anyways because it's a tradeoff for them. Comparing this to stealing meds to save someone's life or TB's parked car is a bit over the top, don't you think ? These are ladder matches in a video game. It's not like they are streaming their MLG matches to their opponents.
I see this as akin to playing poker with your opponent placing his cards face up in front of him. Are you cheating to look at his cards ? I say no. It's just really stupid for you opponent to do that in poker because what is the benefit ? Same thing with Starcraft, except the opponent does benefit by streaming games to the public. Whether it's fame, money, ego, whatever. They make that decision to do it. I don't see the top pros streaming their practice sessions where they are working on secret builds, do you ? Why not ? Because they don't wish to "assume the risk" that people learn what they are doing. I think the whole idea of getting upset over people stream "cheating" mere ladder games is a bit silly.
For the record, I've never stream "sniped", "cheated", etc., as even if I tried, I'm not high enough to match against anybody important.
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well, stream cheating doesn't break any rule, so if streamers don't like cheaters, they could delay the streams by 1 min or more.... lol. that is the only way to do it.
but i agree, streamers should know the risk, you can't call somebody a cheater when you let him watch your stream.
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On November 16 2011 10:51 HellionDrop wrote:
well, stream cheating doesn't break any rule, so if streamers don't like cheaters, they could delay the streams by 1 min or more.... lol. that is the only way to do it.
but i agree, streamers should know the risk, you can't call somebody a cheater when you let him watch your stream.
The problem is that a lot of them like to talk/interact with the viewers on stream, and a delay makes that much harder to do. In order to avoid stream cheating, they would have to make some sacrifices that I think they feel they shouldn't have to make.
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Nothing wrong with stream sniping as long as you're not bugging the streamer, aka sniping them multiple games in a row (especially if they've asked you to stop). Just as long as you pause/close the stream while you're playing then I think it's fine. The reason you're probably getting so much flack is b/c of known stream cheaters such as combatex and deezer.
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On November 16 2011 10:51 HellionDrop wrote:
well, stream cheating doesn't break any rule, so if streamers don't like cheaters, they could delay the streams by 1 min or more.... lol. that is the only way to do it.
but i agree, streamers should know the risk, you can't call somebody a cheater when you let him watch your stream.
except that really solves nothing. most streams ARE delayed....does that stop anything at all? lolno. all it does it screw up commercials and make talking with viewers harder than needed.
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I saw you snipe incontrol on his stream lmao =) He called you a "cheater" to get you riled up. I guess it got to you.
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Sure stream snipers are not necessarily stream cheaters, but it usually is the case, so I associate them together.
You are opening his stream to watch him search, thus you're more likely to cheat than someone who only has sc2 open. That's just logic/how people think. If you don't like it then just play normally. Just my 2 cents... If you're going to get around the blizzard ladder system then you should expect some negative consequences.
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If you don't want to be called a cheater then stop stream sniping people. They don't care if they're ignorant by calling you a stream sniper, they're pissed off that you are stream sniping them. You said you want free publicity, well by stream sniping you get bad free publicity. Learn to react to your environment instead of complaining to people expecting them to change and for you to get everything you want just because you think it's ethically correct.
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On November 16 2011 10:47 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 10:17 Satire wrote:On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote:
Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ? If your argument is that stream cheating should be an assumed risk, I would agree with you to some extent; however, it appears that your argument is based only on a financial platform. Are you saying that it would be "okay" if someone streamed with no personal gain in mind? Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions. While parameters of a situation change ethical debates frequently (think: stealing medication to save a life of another) I don't believe we're going to find such a beneficent set of circumstances occuring in stream cheating. So your debate shouldn't be about assumed risk or the parameters of the situation, it should be able whether cheating is acceptable or not. I guess in your case it's okay. I can't argue with that opinion, but I think it's unfair to place responsibility on the streamers. The only reason I mentioned the financial aspect is the assumption that the streamer has made a decision to stream, even though that would open them up to stream "cheating", but they go ahead anyways because it's a tradeoff for them. Comparing this to stealing meds to save someone's life or TB's parked car is a bit over the top, don't you think ? These are ladder matches in a video game. It's not like they are streaming their MLG matches to their opponents. I see this as akin to playing poker with your opponent placing his cards face up in front of him. Are you cheating to look at his cards ? I say no. It's just really stupid for you opponent to do that in poker because what is the benefit ? Same thing with Starcraft, except the opponent does benefit by streaming games to the public. Whether it's fame, money, ego, whatever. They make that decision to do it. I don't see the top pros streaming their practice sessions where they are working on secret builds, do you ? Why not ? Because they don't wish to "assume the risk" that people learn what they are doing. I think the whole idea of getting upset over people stream "cheating" mere ladder games is a bit silly. For the record, I've never stream "sniped", "cheated", etc., as even if I tried, I'm not high enough to match against anybody important.
You missed the main analogy that he was referring to. "Stealing meds" was an aside that doesnt really need focusing on, the main analogy that you should have addressed as:
Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions.
Perhaps stealing is still too harsh of a comparison for you since it involves literally taking from someone else. A better example, then, would be: Following your logic, it's ok for someone to stalk (or constantly harass with phone calls would be closer to the idea of stream sniping) a girl simply because it is an assumed risk of walking around in public for everyone to see, looking as sexy as she does.
I dont care about an occasional stream snipe. Using the example above, of course that girls gonna get hit on by some guys if she goes to a bar. However, constant harassment of a pro streamer should be looked down upon just as constant harassment of a girl could land you a restraining order.
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Stream sniping is still abusing the system no matter what. You don't get to pick who you fight on ladder, its supposed to be pseudo-random.
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On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote:
lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players.
player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous.
Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
I agree with his statement wholesomely. This is the internet and people don't have much at stake regarding their personal image. I am sure everyone has had a bad game or talked trash on the internet guarded by that you actually don't have to physically know the person. Stream sniping/cheating is all one in the same just your not cheating the player in game but rather the matchmaking system. Overall the people who do Stream sniping/cheating just try to get whatever advantage they can and nobody on the internet has any sense of integrity. Regardless of age,race,religion, etc.. etc.. having faith in the internet and people here is a bad idea. More so if the player is exploiting the matchmaking system to get in the same game with the player don't expect the player to hold you to the same level of respect as others. Sniping and cheating its all one in the same its very distasteful way to exploit the game and its inner workings. Hopefully blizzard can come up with something to remedy this whole issue rather than taking the back seat on this.
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Sniping IS cheating. It is the act of rigging the system to give you a specific opponent as opposed to a randomly well matched one.
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EPT
