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RodYan
United States126 Posts
System works like this: -You can block player matchups of up to N number of players total. (Maybe 10 or so) -You can only block player matchups of up to N number of players per 24 hours (Maybe 10 or so) This doesn't do any damage to the ladder system, and it heavily cuts down on repeated stream sniping and stream cheating | ||
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Gauje
Canada25 Posts
There's a significant association between snipers and cheaters. As such while not all snipers cheat, sniping will suggest you are cheating. Thus, streamers are likely to think you cheat. This comes down to your choice. If you are sniping to have fun and challenge yourself against streamers, and don't care that you frustrate them or what they say about you by all means go ahead. If you're trying to develop a reputation in StarCraft 2 and the association between snipers and cheaters could be damaging, don't snipe. It's just that easy. | ||
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TheChostoProject
Mexico96 Posts
On November 16 2011 09:22 RodYan wrote: Honestly? The best solution is for Blizzard to implement a system that allows people to block players they don't want to play against. It's not unreasonable to allow a player to prevent themselves from having to play against a certain player on ladder. System works like this: -You can block player matchups of up to N number of players total. (Maybe 10 or so) -You can only block player matchups of up to N number of players per 24 hours (Maybe 10 or so) This doesn't do any damage to the ladder system, and it heavily cuts down on repeated stream sniping and stream cheating Do you seriously think that letting Blizzard focus on something thats an issue for maybe 100 people out the hundreds of thousands playing the game a good idea? Do you want to delay HOTS 3 more years?? | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
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Entteri
Finland108 Posts
Snipers want respect for winning good people? Go stream yourself beating them and let people see that you are indeed only sniping. | ||
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Noobity
United States871 Posts
When you're at the top (in either skill or popularity) people want to bring you down, simply human nature. It's also human nature to want to stay there, so being suspicious of activities like this is natural. | ||
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moocow2009
77 Posts
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MaV_gGSC
Canada1345 Posts
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote: Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ? It boggles my mind that you can even say this with a straight-face. My car is parked outside, I guess it's ok to steal it, after all, I did let you see it. | ||
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TheChostoProject
Mexico96 Posts
On November 16 2011 09:42 TotalBiscuit wrote: It boggles my mind that you can even say this with a straight-face. My car is parked outside, I guess it's ok to steal it, after all, I did let you see it. But your car is your property. What you're doing in game (information) stops being your property when you stream it to public. You cannot say "everybody, come watch my stream EXCEPT IF YOUR MY OPPONENT YOU FILTHY CHEATER". | ||
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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
At first his argument was that since there's a likelihood and easy gap to jump from being a sniper, to a cheater, that it's okay to call someone a cheater without evidence of them doing so. Then he argued that it's okay to call him a cheater because he spammed the chat in-game with his twitter, and was addressing incontrol's viewers, saying that he sniped. Then he agreed with another poster, who said to take things from incontrols perspective; that he has to deal with the annoyance of steam-cheaters, and thus, because he has to deal with this annoyance it's okay to call someone who doesn't cheat, a cheater. How are any of these things justification of calling another player, who's at the top, and on a team, and could possibly have a career in starcraft, a cheater, and possibly slander their name and reputation for the future? | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On November 16 2011 09:48 TheChostoProject wrote: But your car is your property. What you're doing in game (information) stops being your property when you stream it to public. You cannot say "everybody, come watch my stream EXCEPT IF YOUR MY OPPONENT YOU FILTHY CHEATER". Honestly, I think you're crazy. At best you are grasping at technicalities, trying to play devils advocate or just simply utterly amoral. It doesn't matter if the person is streaming or not, it is not an open invitation to fucking maphack him, which is exactly what you are doing if you watch his stream. The net result is IDENTICAL, it doesn't matter if you are actually using a hack, the intent and the result are exactly the same. So let's dispense with the cute analogies and call it what it is, cheating. | ||
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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
On November 16 2011 09:55 TotalBiscuit wrote: Honestly, I think you're crazy. At best you are grasping at technicalities, trying to play devils advocate or just simply utterly amoral. It doesn't matter if the person is streaming or not, it is not an open invitation to fucking maphack him, which is exactly what you are doing if you watch his stream. The net result is IDENTICAL, it doesn't matter if you are actually using a hack, the intent and the result are exactly the same. So let's dispense with the cute analogies and call it what it is, cheating. Err, yeah I think you're being trolled TB. His argument is asinine, and a de-rail. | ||
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Insomni7
667 Posts
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hytonight
303 Posts
On November 16 2011 09:55 TotalBiscuit wrote: Honestly, I think you're crazy. At best you are grasping at technicalities, trying to play devils advocate or just simply utterly amoral. It doesn't matter if the person is streaming or not, it is not an open invitation to fucking maphack him, which is exactly what you are doing if you watch his stream. The net result is IDENTICAL, it doesn't matter if you are actually using a hack, the intent and the result are exactly the same. So let's dispense with the cute analogies and call it what it is, cheating. worst part about people who think like that...they refuse to listen to reason, and if you somehow convince them then 10 more will take their place. its a sad world. | ||
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Satire
Canada295 Posts
On November 16 2011 06:41 Harstem wrote: EDIT: I only snipe streamers once, if I get matched up with streamers multiple times in a row(while laddering) it is not my fault, but the system's Dear TeamLiquid, most of you guys will not know so let me introduce myself: I am Kevin "Harstem" de Koning a young dutch protoss player who likes to stream snipe famous players every now and then. When the game was released a lot of players started a stream. To get more exposure, get money from commercials, to have fun with the viewers, interact with the community etc. One downside of streaming is the fact that the opponent can easily open your stream and see what you are doing. This is really annoying for the streamers and even though it sometimes is fun to watch it also annoys the viewers. The only way to stop this is by either delaying the stream a few minutes or by turning off the stream. The reason I made this thread is to show people the difference between stream sniping and stream cheating. As I stated above stream-cheating is really annoying and people who win games by stream-cheating should not deserve any credit whatsoever(in my opinion). Stream sniping on the other hand is something completely different. When a person stream snipes, he tries to match a professional/well known player by watching their stream and try to search at the same time. If the MMR of the player sniping and the proffesional/well known player is the same or close to the same there is a high probability to find the streamer! Instead of playing versus average joe you are playing versus Incontrol, Idra, Kas, HuK etc. Unfortunately not all streamers can appreciate it and sometimes they even falsely accuse you of stream-cheating. This is the opposite of what you want, because when I stream snipe I do this to get free good publicity while playing versus extremely good players. The feeling of winning while your opponent is having 5000+ viewers is really hard to describe, but it feels damn good. What I am trying to say is: If someone is stream sniping this doesn't necessarily mean they are stream cheating. Lately I am getting more and more streamers who are saying "don't mind this guy, he is a cheater" without even knowing me. This isn't only putting me in a bad daylight, but it also affects my play. When my opponent tells me "u streamcheat" I scout less, because I know that if I find his proxy pylon or his hidden gate he will be like "See this guy is a cheater, fucking scrub". I hope people learn to appreciate me and my fellow stream snipers more and stop falsely accusing me and others of cheating when we are not. Have a nice day, Kevin "Harstem" de Koning Don't be to harsh on my english please <3 tyty I could not word my feelings any better than Uncultured did in his post Just read through the thread - it was interesting to say the least to see some varying opinions on the subject. Some people say there is an assumed risk when you stream, and you almost "deserve it", or seem to carry an attitude that is part of being famous. I do not believe that. People who play this game seriously and work hard to improve to become the best don't deserve to have their stream abused. Many of those same people stream not only to benefit themselves, but benefit others. It's an added pressure to know that people are out there using their stream against them, and it's things like this that decrease interaction between pro players and their fans - Destiny's stream would be an excellent example of this. With that said - the inherent flaw is within the streaming process itself. When there is a delay, that should definitely help to remedy some of the problems. It would still be possible to stream snipe a little bit if one was aware there was a couple of minutes of delay, but hopefully it will be more difficult. In the least, it would remove the element of stream cheating, and make stream sniping more of an annoyance than a full blown frustration of sorts. Finally, in terms of ethics, whether stream sniping is wrong or right: I believe the harm comes into play when you abuse another players' hard work to further your own. Obviously playing against players that are considered "famous" is exciting, and beating them is more exciting. When one uses that fame to boost their own and are almost addicted to that feeling of power, it is not entirely unreasonable to believe that they wouldn't be able having that stream on to attempt to beat said player. After all, from your original post you've made it evident that you enjoy the attention you get from not only playing, but beating these pros. You simply cannot blame them for being skeptical of your own moral decisions outside of the game. Beyond that, these players already constantly get stream sniped, harassed, and stream cheater upon so really there is no reason for them to distinguish you from players such as Deezer who contribute to the negative stereotypes of these types of behaviors. I cannot say 100% whether you are cheating or not, and within that logical reasoning, lie the seeds of mistrust and contempt from other players. So why do that to yourself? The fame you get is not worth the dignity you are sacrificing. The moral of the story: While I cannot prove you are, or are not, cheating, you are lumping yourself in with a group that is. That is the cost of stream sniping in general. If you are ranked high enough, you will be getting placed against these players naturally. If you are able to compete, you will slowly gather respect among the community in a more natural way. From there, your hard work and skills will become noticed, and rather than being an obnoxious outsider that is attempting to get his 20 minutes of fame through other peoples' work, your hard work and skills will be noticed by others because you are making a name for yourself. If your end goal is to be noticed, it's better to do it through hard work and skills and model someone like Trimaster or Minigun, rather than be lumped into the same group as players like CombatEx and Deezer no? Think about it that way. Good luck regardless - don't let fame go to your head. Being famous is actually a lot work in maintaining composure and appearances. It's really not worth the hassle, nor the trouble.  | ||
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moocow2009
77 Posts
On November 16 2011 09:50 Uncultured wrote: I'm really amazed at the flagrant disregard for this persons career. Calling him a stream-cheater because he snipes can be very detrimental to his future, if he were to want to become a pro. Basically Incontrols argument comes down to a few different things, because he's changed it a couple times in this thread. At first his argument was that since there's a likelihood and easy gap to jump from being a sniper, to a cheater, that it's okay to call someone a cheater without evidence of them doing so. Then he argued that it's okay to call him a cheater because he spammed the chat in-game with his twitter, and was addressing incontrol's viewers, saying that he sniped. Then he agreed with another poster, who said to take things from incontrols perspective; that he has to deal with the annoyance of steam-cheaters, and thus, because he has to deal with this annoyance it's okay to call someone who doesn't cheat, a cheater. How are any of these things justification of calling another player, who's at the top, and on a team, and could possibly have a career in starcraft, a cheater, and possibly slander their name and reputation for the future? First of all, you're grossly taking Incontrol's statements out of context (and no, he didn't change his opinion, he just said the same thing in many different ways to clarify it). What he actually said was that if someone stream-snipes, there's no real reason for him, or anyone, to assume that the person isn't also stream-cheating. They can't just say, "Oh, you have no proof that I was cheating," since it's impossible to get proof. The burden lies on the sniper to prove they aren't cheating, and if they don't want to deal with it, they shouldn't snipe. Secondly, I seriously doubt that this will hurt his career, if he decides to make one in starcraft -- I think you're placing too much weight on a single accusation. Incontrol didn't go out of the way to attack him -- he in fact, did not post about it anywhere. If the accusee hadn't brought it up, I know that I personally would never have known about it. Do you really think that months or a year later, some team wthat is considering signing on Harstem here is going to look back and think, "Oh, Incontrol called him a cheater once on his stream. Better not hire him after all"? Of course not. They'll probably take a look at his record of sniping, but if there's no proof that Incontrol was right when he said that, then they'll dismiss it. | ||
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JediGamer
United States656 Posts
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eohs
United States677 Posts
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
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