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On November 15 2011 16:35 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 16:32 Oktyabr wrote:On November 15 2011 16:23 Fubi wrote:On November 15 2011 16:21 red4ce wrote:
Diamond being so nice just giving Coca and Byun what amounts to a slap on the wrist. It's already mid November. A ban until Jan 1st is basically only a few more weeklies. GSL November is the last code S for the year so Coca and Byun may not lose anything from this at all. Err, being dropped out of Code S and having to requalify all the way from Code B, plus the fact that he got kicked out from the teamhouse = less opportunities to practice with good players is pretty big for me. And also they have yet to determine when they can play again, it could be longer than a few months for all we know Or he could simply leave Slayers without forfeiting his Code S spot, and bam, there, continue playing as per usual. He can even follow that up by tweeting the whole world "bye slayers" and see if any foreigner team wants him. GOMTV hasn't even had a chance to decide on the proper course of action before he vacated his spot. IMO him leaving Code S is indicative that he's actually supportive of the punishment that he has been given by is own team. He obviously wants to stay on Slayers, and hence he's accepting those stipulations imposed on him. This is in no way career ending. Boxer already states explicitly that he still has a future ahead of him, nobody just knows when yet. I don't know about you, but leaving Slayers (and probably won't get accepted into any decent Korean teams because of that) will be worst for your career as you probably won't get good practices anymore and therefore fall behind and eventually fall out of Code S anyways. (not saying this is the reason why he didnt choose to leave Slayers tho)
Which is why this punishment is entirely fair. If Slayers chose to disown him immediately instead of merely demoting him, he'd have not much of a future in any Korean team either.
This situation is merely reflective of Boxer's principles in action. He has an idea of what e-sports should be about, and he doesn't condone any shady behaviour. This punishment is adequately harsh in that sense.
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On November 15 2011 16:11 anrimayu wrote:
Here's the chat log in question. I omitted parts that are irrelevant.
1:00
C: i'll let you win
B: fuck off.
3:48
B: fuck, you said you'll let me win
C: I have to practice, there's 3 Ts in my group
...
C: I'm here just because I don't have other Ts to practice
B: Next opponent is P, so just forfeit
B: Where's your teams T?
C: G-star event
26:20, Coca at 150pop 4 mining bases to Byun's 45pop 0 mining base
B: fuck, get out, fuck fuck
C: I forfeit
B: let's do game 3 too
C: gg *leaves the game
Sounds to me like Coca was treating the tournament like a casual ladder session. Naive, perhaps, but I wouldn't put it as a mark against his integrity. It certainly does sound like he just didn't grasp that his actions would have negative impacts on others.
Definitely wrong, but how do you handle cases where the transgression is a product of naivete rather than lack of integrity?
On November 15 2011 15:12 Diamond wrote:
Ok I have read everything over and it is without a doubt what CoCa and Byun did was 100% wrong. They took away the very spirit the Korean Weekly was built on. While it was created to have a quick, fun tournament for Koreans and inject more money into the scene, it is just that, a tournament, a competition. What CoCa and Byun did was incredibly stupid, and ruins the very foundation the tournament itself is based on (the best player wins).
However I am a man that has made more mistakes in my life then I care to admit. CoCa and Byun are both very young and I in no way feel this was a highly premeditated incident like the Savior incident. They deserve a second chance, but not one without punishment.
Until January 1st, 2012 CoCa and Byun are both suspended from the Korean Weekly. We hope they will use this time to look upon themselves and to make sure this never happens again. Additionally the suspension cannot be lifted without the direct approval of their respective coaches (both the time and approval requirements must be met). I feel this will give them the time they need to work past whatever made them do this. They will also be ineligible for any qualified spots in the next Korean Weekly Finals.
In the meantime I will be looking at alternate formats for the Korean Weekly that will somehow separate Code A and S players from Code B. I do not know what the system is yet, but I will be working on it during our two week break.
I am sorry to everyone.
Banned until January? Given the above, I'm happy with the way this was handled by the tournament, especially since the team-administered actions seem pretty harsh on top. It sucks to have your future destroyed just because of a bit of ignorance.
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Honestly this is no different from throwing games in group play to avoid teamkills. Im sure this has happened but not in the retarded way CoCa and Byun did it
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On November 15 2011 16:41 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 16:40 Sephyr wrote:On November 15 2011 16:36 Dodgin wrote:On November 15 2011 16:34 Sephyr wrote:On November 15 2011 16:30 Diamond wrote:On November 15 2011 16:29 SniXSniPe wrote:On November 15 2011 16:24 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 15 2011 16:23 Fubi wrote:On November 15 2011 16:21 red4ce wrote:
Diamond being so nice just giving Coca and Byun what amounts to a slap on the wrist. It's already mid November. A ban until Jan 1st is basically only a few more weeklies. GSL November is the last code S for the year so Coca and Byun may not lose anything from this at all. Err, being dropped out of Code S and having to requalify all the way from Code B, plus the fact that he got kicked out from the teamhouse = less opportunities to practice with good players is pretty big for me. And also they have yet to determine when they can play again, it could be longer than a few months for all we know Good, it's a well deserved punishment. If he wants to be an idiot he shall get what he deserves. Yeah, because sacrificing several thousands of dollars + a team house + a hurt reputation isn't a bit excessive for 17 year old kid who wasn't even committing that terrible of a deed. All he did was join a tournament to practice, and gave up one game to his friend. I don't see any written rule being broken anywhere--- it's not like this didn't happen at MLG for WhiteRa, or DeMusliM for the EGWC right? For gods sake, you people acted like he was one of the BW players aiming to extort the system and make thousands of dollars in an UNLAWFUL manner. From the Korean Weekly player handbook that is sent to every team, is 9 pages, and has both a English and fully translated Korean copy: "3: No cheating. This includes but is not limited to, hacks, third-party programs, minimap enlargement tools, automated scripts, “macro keys”. This also includes people messaging you in game, or account sharing/playing under an ID you did not register for. Any cheating of any kind will be dealt with harshly and we will also forward the incident to both GOM TV and the Korean Players Association, along with other notable Non-Korean tournament organizers (Teamliquid, NASL, MLG, etc). We take this VERY seriously. Not every type of cheating is covered here, but if there is a new method of cheating we don’t cover currently, it still counts. Do not test this rule. Note that violation of this rule is an automatic forfeiture of your prize money you earned in the event that the violation occurred in." He gave himself an extra game to practice and the crowd an extra game to watch. You yourself gained some extra revenue out of it. Was there anyone who actually did not benefit from this? I honestly cannot believe you're actually saying that match fixing is ok in any form. Do you even know what match-fixing is? I'm pretty sure I stated it a few pages back. Here, let me type it out for you. Match-fixing is when the result of an upcoming match is pre-determined before the game happens. Was this match pre-determined? This is more of a thrown game. He won, but he chose to just throw the game. Idra, Sjow, Morrow, Stephano, Brat_OK and so on have done it before. Do you know that it was not pre-determined?
We don't, therefore we can't say it is. From the current evidence we can only infer that it was decided during the game.
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I think this is BS. The problem I see here is Byun and Coca are not on the same team. Why not help out a team member? Obviously if this was a huge tourney it would not happen. It would be more cut throat than some tourney with a Code A spot.
Take the view of Coca... I am already in Code S this will help my friend. We will play a game W or L Ill leave and give the win over to Byun.
People are overreacting because of the Savior incident, which I do understand. I don't feel Code S spot removal is necessary; not giving the Code A spot to Byun is necessary.
Eh, the only thing that can kill eSports is eSports... here we go! I hear CAL is making a come back lol.
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On November 15 2011 16:41 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 16:40 Sephyr wrote:On November 15 2011 16:36 Dodgin wrote:On November 15 2011 16:34 Sephyr wrote:On November 15 2011 16:30 Diamond wrote:On November 15 2011 16:29 SniXSniPe wrote:On November 15 2011 16:24 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 15 2011 16:23 Fubi wrote:On November 15 2011 16:21 red4ce wrote:
Diamond being so nice just giving Coca and Byun what amounts to a slap on the wrist. It's already mid November. A ban until Jan 1st is basically only a few more weeklies. GSL November is the last code S for the year so Coca and Byun may not lose anything from this at all. Err, being dropped out of Code S and having to requalify all the way from Code B, plus the fact that he got kicked out from the teamhouse = less opportunities to practice with good players is pretty big for me. And also they have yet to determine when they can play again, it could be longer than a few months for all we know Good, it's a well deserved punishment. If he wants to be an idiot he shall get what he deserves. Yeah, because sacrificing several thousands of dollars + a team house + a hurt reputation isn't a bit excessive for 17 year old kid who wasn't even committing that terrible of a deed. All he did was join a tournament to practice, and gave up one game to his friend. I don't see any written rule being broken anywhere--- it's not like this didn't happen at MLG for WhiteRa, or DeMusliM for the EGWC right? For gods sake, you people acted like he was one of the BW players aiming to extort the system and make thousands of dollars in an UNLAWFUL manner. From the Korean Weekly player handbook that is sent to every team, is 9 pages, and has both a English and fully translated Korean copy: "3: No cheating. This includes but is not limited to, hacks, third-party programs, minimap enlargement tools, automated scripts, “macro keys”. This also includes people messaging you in game, or account sharing/playing under an ID you did not register for. Any cheating of any kind will be dealt with harshly and we will also forward the incident to both GOM TV and the Korean Players Association, along with other notable Non-Korean tournament organizers (Teamliquid, NASL, MLG, etc). We take this VERY seriously. Not every type of cheating is covered here, but if there is a new method of cheating we don’t cover currently, it still counts. Do not test this rule. Note that violation of this rule is an automatic forfeiture of your prize money you earned in the event that the violation occurred in." He gave himself an extra game to practice and the crowd an extra game to watch. You yourself gained some extra revenue out of it. Was there anyone who actually did not benefit from this? I honestly cannot believe you're actually saying that match fixing is ok in any form. Do you even know what match-fixing is? I'm pretty sure I stated it a few pages back. Here, let me type it out for you. Match-fixing is when the result of an upcoming match is pre-determined before the game happens. Was this match pre-determined? This is more of a thrown game. He won, but he chose to just throw the game. Idra, Sjow, Morrow, Stephano, Brat_OK and so on have done it before. Do you know that it was not pre-determined?
No one knows if it was pre-determined or not. But by going of the evidence that everyone's been given, it's clear that it wasn't.
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Kids will be kids. He did something stupid, he will pay for it and we will all forget in in a month.
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lol this is stupid... coca so good and out of code s! hope idra takes his spot3
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On November 15 2011 16:15 ZorBa.G wrote:
I feel the punishment from SlayerS and the withdrawal from Code S a fit punishment for a player who has done something very stupid.
Byun should be banned from any entry to major tournaments for a good lengthy period of time.
Regardless if they are good players or not, or however many fan boys they have. There is no room for this stupidity and it should not be tolerated. They deserved to be hit with the full force of punishment.
Many other pros are working their ass off way to much and they don't deserve to have idiots getting up to dodgy shit like this.
How would you feel being in the same round as Byun, you play a tough match and lose against another player... whilst Byun is getting a free ride to the next round?
Personally, I love watching Coca play. But I have lost all respect for him. This is a dog act.
QFE.
To the guy arguing what match fixing means and all the rest of it. This isn't Harvard University, it's an online forum. You know exactly what this thread is about and what people mean.
Basically, your arguing about something completely irrelevant.
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On November 15 2011 16:40 VirgilSC2 wrote:Cella just tweeted:
More and more making it clear that even when this is a "harsh" punishment, it is simply a message to other players in the Korean scene.
-nvm-
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holy moley i just found out about this, damn, so what happens to group d for code s?
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On November 15 2011 16:36 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 16:29 SniXSniPe wrote:On November 15 2011 16:24 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 15 2011 16:23 Fubi wrote:On November 15 2011 16:21 red4ce wrote:
Diamond being so nice just giving Coca and Byun what amounts to a slap on the wrist. It's already mid November. A ban until Jan 1st is basically only a few more weeklies. GSL November is the last code S for the year so Coca and Byun may not lose anything from this at all. Err, being dropped out of Code S and having to requalify all the way from Code B, plus the fact that he got kicked out from the teamhouse = less opportunities to practice with good players is pretty big for me. And also they have yet to determine when they can play again, it could be longer than a few months for all we know Good, it's a well deserved punishment. If he wants to be an idiot he shall get what he deserves. Yeah, because sacrificing several thousands of dollars + a team house + a hurt reputation isn't a bit excessive for 17 year old kid who wasn't even committing that terrible of a deed. All he did was join a tournament to practice, and gave up one game to his friend. I don't see any written rule being broken anywhere--- it's not like this didn't happen at MLG for WhiteRa, or DeMusliM for the EGWC right? He's a Code S player already, he had nothing to gain and he just wanted ZvT practice mostly. For gods sake, you people acted like he was one of the BW players aiming to extort the system and make thousands of dollars in an UNLAWFUL manner. If he had wanted to do something so bad would he really chat in games and make jokes at the same time? If anything, I would be upset with how SlayerS is responding. I imagine they might have had some influence of CoCa giving up his hard earned Code S spot he worked for. MLG admins have the duty to enforce their own laws. Fact that they didn't do anything has no implications whatsoever to SlayerS's decision. DeMusliM actually asked an admin if he could forfeit and didn't actually play the game. He just decided to forfeit. Granted he played through the first couple of rounds in the tournament, but the thing is he didn't make a fool of himself by blatantly disrespecting the competition. I'm pretty sure ESV has tons of forfeits in their weeklies. Those people go unpunished why? Because they don't play the game, get up to 5 or 6 bases against a 1 base opponent chat about throwing the game explicitly in game and then actually throw the game. Oh, and even if they did they probably wouldn't send the replay of what they just did.
ESV sometimes has explicit forfeits. In the last monthly finals a Code A or Code S player who was due to play his teammate withdrew in order to let his teammate through that round and give a better chance to get to the finals and take the Code A spot. I recall Orb saying this on stream. But the forfeit was announced by the players and matches didn't take place. That's possibly also a reason Diamond is considering changing the format. When you get Code A/S players playing in a competition which awards a Code A spot, there's obviously going to be "team tactics" in order to help people out, and there already has been, and that's reasonable.
Match fixing in the middle of a series however is not acceptable. If Coca had just not played his match in order to assist Byun, that would be different to starting a BO3 and then throwing games.
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Edit: Double post 
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On November 15 2011 16:45 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 16:15 ZorBa.G wrote:
I feel the punishment from SlayerS and the withdrawal from Code S a fit punishment for a player who has done something very stupid.
Byun should be banned from any entry to major tournaments for a good lengthy period of time.
Regardless if they are good players or not, or however many fan boys they have. There is no room for this stupidity and it should not be tolerated. They deserved to be hit with the full force of punishment.
Many other pros are working their ass off way to much and they don't deserve to have idiots getting up to dodgy shit like this.
How would you feel being in the same round as Byun, you play a tough match and lose against another player... whilst Byun is getting a free ride to the next round?
Personally, I love watching Coca play. But I have lost all respect for him. This is a dog act. QFE. To the guy arguing what match fixing means and all the rest of it. This isn't Harvard University, it's an online forum. You know exactly what this thread is about and what people mean. Basically, your arguing about something completely irrelevant.
Completely irrelevant? Every second poster has basically said that this is match-fixing and every third poster has said it's to the same scale of the savior incident. I'm arguing that it's a thrown game and the punishments for throwing this game have been blown way out of proportion.
Why should CoCa be unfairly labeled as a match-fixer which puts him in the same boat as Savior? I don't find that fair at all.
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On November 15 2011 16:38 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 16:30 Diamond wrote:On November 15 2011 16:29 SniXSniPe wrote:On November 15 2011 16:24 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 15 2011 16:23 Fubi wrote:On November 15 2011 16:21 red4ce wrote:
Diamond being so nice just giving Coca and Byun what amounts to a slap on the wrist. It's already mid November. A ban until Jan 1st is basically only a few more weeklies. GSL November is the last code S for the year so Coca and Byun may not lose anything from this at all. Err, being dropped out of Code S and having to requalify all the way from Code B, plus the fact that he got kicked out from the teamhouse = less opportunities to practice with good players is pretty big for me. And also they have yet to determine when they can play again, it could be longer than a few months for all we know Good, it's a well deserved punishment. If he wants to be an idiot he shall get what he deserves. Yeah, because sacrificing several thousands of dollars + a team house + a hurt reputation isn't a bit excessive for 17 year old kid who wasn't even committing that terrible of a deed. All he did was join a tournament to practice, and gave up one game to his friend. I don't see any written rule being broken anywhere--- it's not like this didn't happen at MLG for WhiteRa, or DeMusliM for the EGWC right? For gods sake, you people acted like he was one of the BW players aiming to extort the system and make thousands of dollars in an UNLAWFUL manner. From the Korean Weekly player handbook that is sent to every team, is 9 pages, and has both a English and fully translated Korean copy: "3: No cheating. This includes but is not limited to, hacks, third-party programs, minimap enlargement tools, automated scripts, “macro keys”. This also includes people messaging you in game, or account sharing/playing under an ID you did not register for. Any cheating of any kind will be dealt with harshly and we will also forward the incident to both GOM TV and the Korean Players Association, along with other notable Non-Korean tournament organizers (Teamliquid, NASL, MLG, etc). We take this VERY seriously. Not every type of cheating is covered here, but if there is a new method of cheating we don’t cover currently, it still counts. Do not test this rule. Note that violation of this rule is an automatic forfeiture of your prize money you earned in the event that the violation occurred in." Not that I don't know throwing away the game is wrong or anything, but just want to clarify, which of the following does throwing away a game fall under? : "This includes but is not limited to, hacks, third-party programs, minimap enlargement tools, automated scripts, “macro keys”. This also includes people messaging you in game, or account sharing/playing under an ID you did not register for." I'm guessing the "but is not limited to" part? But then again this would seem really vague for a rule as you can say this for almost anything
"not limited to" indeed. I knew match fixing was sensitive in Korean culture, so I did not mention it by name. But either way I could have made a list of 55,000 ways to cheat and still missed some, or just left the rule vague for any situation.
Even more so it still can be considered a violation of Rule #2 in the book.
2: The tournament administrator has the final say on all rulings. In the rare event a situation is not covered, the tournament administrator may make a ruling to cover the subject at hand and it will be added to the rules in future events.
I don't allow someone "technically not breaking a rule" in my tournaments, I do leave the rules vague enough so anything shady can be covered even if it's the first time it's been seen.
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this was just light hearted fun. Give me a fucking break.
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All the internet tough guys need to calm down. Coca and Byun are kids. They've been punished and they'll be back soon with a new perspective and more maturity.
Put down your goddamned pitchforks.
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On November 15 2011 16:40 Mithridates wrote:
This shouldnt be considered match fixing in the traditional sense simply cause Coca received no monetary benefit for throwing the match. Its not like hes making a ton of money by losing... as far as we know. If he feels a friendship with Byun is more important than the weekly and decides to leave why cant he?
Because it is the same as a high school defender letting an opposing striker pass him to score a goal because they are neighbors and friends. And that's ok in your book because no money was involved. Dude... That's sooooo fucked up.
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I really hope there are things we don't know about, like behavioral type things within the SlayerS house.
This is seriously ridiculous.
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your lying to yourself if you don't think this happens all the time in all sorts of competitive events. The only problem here is that they were so blatantly obvious about it... I feel bad for them both
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EPT
