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On November 15 2011 16:49 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 16:40 Mithridates wrote:
This shouldnt be considered match fixing in the traditional sense simply cause Coca received no monetary benefit for throwing the match. Its not like hes making a ton of money by losing... as far as we know. If he feels a friendship with Byun is more important than the weekly and decides to leave why cant he? Because it is the same as a high school defender letting an opposing striker pass him to score a goal because they are neighbors and friends. And that's ok in your book because no money was involved. Dude... That's sooooo fucked up.
Just as messed up as people comparing it to Savior's incident or even murdering...
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On November 15 2011 15:51 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 15:45 FairForever wrote:On November 15 2011 15:40 Kiyo. wrote:On November 15 2011 15:39 anrimayu wrote:On November 15 2011 15:38 Termit wrote:On November 15 2011 15:37 kiy0 wrote:On November 15 2011 13:35 dde wrote:
i wonder if he will leave slayers and start looking for foreign team If he does end up leaving SlayerS, what team manager in his sane mind would give a contract to a player that practices match fixing? Probably all of them. And that's why you're not a Korean SC2 team manager. Otherwise, you would've lost all your fans and sponsors for your team. And that's why you should read nested quotes. They're talking about foreign teams, who clearly don't mind when this happens(Millenium, EG, etc) ?? Which players from Mill and EG? The primary ones I can think of are TT1 (ex-fnatic), Haypro (Liquid), Dimaga (mTw)... I can't think of any others immediately off the top of my head. Stephano, Demuslim/IdrA/Axslav, BratOK -- heck, Morrow and Sjow actually matchfixed. It's not a problem for foreign teams. It's the Korean ones who wouldn't touch him.
Sjow and Morrow didn't matchfix, they asked the organizer if the could and when he said no they didn't.
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On November 15 2011 16:48 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 16:36 pdd wrote:On November 15 2011 16:29 SniXSniPe wrote:On November 15 2011 16:24 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 15 2011 16:23 Fubi wrote:On November 15 2011 16:21 red4ce wrote:
Diamond being so nice just giving Coca and Byun what amounts to a slap on the wrist. It's already mid November. A ban until Jan 1st is basically only a few more weeklies. GSL November is the last code S for the year so Coca and Byun may not lose anything from this at all. Err, being dropped out of Code S and having to requalify all the way from Code B, plus the fact that he got kicked out from the teamhouse = less opportunities to practice with good players is pretty big for me. And also they have yet to determine when they can play again, it could be longer than a few months for all we know Good, it's a well deserved punishment. If he wants to be an idiot he shall get what he deserves. Yeah, because sacrificing several thousands of dollars + a team house + a hurt reputation isn't a bit excessive for 17 year old kid who wasn't even committing that terrible of a deed. All he did was join a tournament to practice, and gave up one game to his friend. I don't see any written rule being broken anywhere--- it's not like this didn't happen at MLG for WhiteRa, or DeMusliM for the EGWC right? He's a Code S player already, he had nothing to gain and he just wanted ZvT practice mostly. For gods sake, you people acted like he was one of the BW players aiming to extort the system and make thousands of dollars in an UNLAWFUL manner. If he had wanted to do something so bad would he really chat in games and make jokes at the same time? If anything, I would be upset with how SlayerS is responding. I imagine they might have had some influence of CoCa giving up his hard earned Code S spot he worked for. MLG admins have the duty to enforce their own laws. Fact that they didn't do anything has no implications whatsoever to SlayerS's decision. DeMusliM actually asked an admin if he could forfeit and didn't actually play the game. He just decided to forfeit. Granted he played through the first couple of rounds in the tournament, but the thing is he didn't make a fool of himself by blatantly disrespecting the competition. I'm pretty sure ESV has tons of forfeits in their weeklies. Those people go unpunished why? Because they don't play the game, get up to 5 or 6 bases against a 1 base opponent chat about throwing the game explicitly in game and then actually throw the game. Oh, and even if they did they probably wouldn't send the replay of what they just did. ESV sometimes has explicit forfeits. In the last monthly finals a Code A or Code S player who was due to play his teammate withdrew in order to let his teammate through that round and give a better chance to get to the finals and take the Code A spot. I recall Orb saying this on stream. But the forfeit was announced by the players and matches didn't take place. That's possibly also a reason Diamond is considering changing the format. When you get Code A/S players playing in a competition which awards a Code A spot, there's obviously going to be "team tactics" in order to help people out, and there already has been, and that's reasonable. Match fixing in the middle of a series however is not acceptable. If Coca had just not played his match in order to assist Byun, that would be different to starting a BO3 and then throwing games.
One thing that is 100% on ESV is not having an optional system for preventing this issue from popping up from square 1. The Korean Weekly was not originally designed with a Code A/S slot in mind, and I should have changed it up once one was added. Now just to future proof it I will be figuring out how to fix the system.
However even with this system it's still on a the player to exploit it. Players like Taeja have destroyed teammates (or ex-teammates) time and time again that have no Code A while being Code A/S himself. He never used that as a opportunity to lose. He is competitive, he wants to be the best, he will accept nothing less then 100%. Not every player has this attitude however, I thought CoCa did before this.
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And it's too late to change my liquibet too!
T__T
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So does that mean we won't see the puppy in prime-matches? 
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Wow a 3 (2?) month ban is NOT LONG ENOUGH for this kind of thing.
i don't even know if i think i lifetime ban from this single tournament would be too far. he got KICKED OUT from his team for this.
wow unsettling and not ok.
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also this thread that should be spotlighted should be "Coca and byun caught match fixing" because THAT's what happned.
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On November 15 2011 16:55 TheNessman wrote:
Wow a 3 (2?) month ban is NOT LONG ENOUGH for this kind of thing.
i don't even know if i think i lifetime ban from this single tournament would be too far. he got KICKED OUT from his team for this.
wow unsettling and not ok.
Yea dude these guys should get sentenced to jail for life.
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wow. i really like coca. that's too bad. somewhat obvious reaction i guess.
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United States15536 Posts
Hot_Bid Hot_Bid
Yeah @SlayersCella said "Just remember what happened today. And never forget it" ... interesting how strongly you come down on this kid
Hot_Bid Hot_Bid
... but when some kids get molested in a clan it's all "we can confirm nor deny" and no strong statements #idontforget
Awesome tweets from the Hot_Bid, reminding us that match fixing is bad, but shit HAS been way worse... and ignored.
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Very sad, such big talent wasted.
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Alot of people in this community needs to take a chill pill. All the "scandals" of SC2 so far (beside the Gus thing) have been minor and are all pointing towards SC2 actually becoming a real sport with the same troubles real sports have.
To me people seem to overreact to everything that might possibly be a scandal. The people who are asking for harsh punishment now seem to riled up exactly like when people said coach Lee should not be able to run a pro team and and his team shouldn't be able to play in the GSL. Same with the Stephano incident where people were asking for him to be banned from all tournaments and that Mill should also not be able to send their players to any tournaments.
RELAX.
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On November 15 2011 16:48 Sephyr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 16:45 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 15 2011 16:15 ZorBa.G wrote:
I feel the punishment from SlayerS and the withdrawal from Code S a fit punishment for a player who has done something very stupid.
Byun should be banned from any entry to major tournaments for a good lengthy period of time.
Regardless if they are good players or not, or however many fan boys they have. There is no room for this stupidity and it should not be tolerated. They deserved to be hit with the full force of punishment.
Many other pros are working their ass off way to much and they don't deserve to have idiots getting up to dodgy shit like this.
How would you feel being in the same round as Byun, you play a tough match and lose against another player... whilst Byun is getting a free ride to the next round?
Personally, I love watching Coca play. But I have lost all respect for him. This is a dog act. QFE. To the guy arguing what match fixing means and all the rest of it. This isn't Harvard University, it's an online forum. You know exactly what this thread is about and what people mean. Basically, your arguing about something completely irrelevant. Completely irrelevant? Every second poster has basically said that this is match-fixing and every third poster has said it's to the same scale of the savior incident. I'm arguing that it's a thrown game and the punishments for throwing this game have been blown way out of proportion. Why should CoCa be unfairly labeled as a match-fixer which puts him in the same boat as Savior? I don't find that fair at all.
So your telling me this is acceptable and both of these players only need a slap on the wrist? For reference, please read what I quoted.
Do you realise this also creates a bad image amongst all professionals of the game. Behaviour like this only creates doubt within competitions. People will actually start to think, "Is this a proper match?"
And as I've stated before, for those who try so hard to help e-sports grow and those who help put on tournaments..... this is like just throwing all of that back in their face. It's disgusting really. I couldn't care less if you think it's a "thrown game" or "match fixing," either way this is probably one of the most disrespecting things you can do to the community and your fans.
I don't see how you think this behaviour should be lightly punished. I really don't.
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On November 15 2011 16:50 eVolvE342 wrote:
your lying to yourself if you don't think this happens all the time in all sorts of competitive events. The only problem here is that they were so blatantly obvious about it... I feel bad for them both
And you are scum for calling me and all the upright, honest men and women who would rather die than cheat.
You need to see a shrink if you think everyone cheats.
You need to come to Indonesia and see what rampant corruption REALLY is like.
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On November 15 2011 16:55 TheNessman wrote:
also this thread that should be spotlighted should be "Coca and byun caught match fixing" because THAT's what happned.
I sincerely hope youre joking
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Cocoa cant afford this, one of the hottest zergs out, right now, I think there is only 2 zergs now left in code s. Leenock and nestea lol. Hmm sad, If Cocoa really wanted to stick to every one, he could just call b.s and make any excuse he wants, they really will never have enough evidence of why he did it, he could so anything he wants, and they really arent allowed to bother him, having said that. Cocoa looks a little guilty. I'd say a warning would be enough, it was innocent
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On November 15 2011 16:56 AsmodeusXI wrote:
Hot_Bid Hot_Bid
Yeah @SlayersCella said "Just remember what happened today. And never forget it" ... interesting how strongly you come down on this kid
Hot_Bid Hot_Bid
... but when some kids get molested in a clan it's all "we can confirm nor deny" and no strong statements #idontforget
Awesome tweets from the Hot_Bid, reminding us that match fixing is bad, but shit HAS been way worse... and ignored.
Maybe because one is a real criminal offence while the other one is not? Are you even allowed to talk about who did what in a molestation case if it isn't settled? Why even compare those two things?
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This left me a bit sad inside :|
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On November 15 2011 16:49 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 16:40 Mithridates wrote:
This shouldnt be considered match fixing in the traditional sense simply cause Coca received no monetary benefit for throwing the match. Its not like hes making a ton of money by losing... as far as we know. If he feels a friendship with Byun is more important than the weekly and decides to leave why cant he? Because it is the same as a high school defender letting an opposing striker pass him to score a goal because they are neighbors and friends. And that's ok in your book because no money was involved. Dude... That's sooooo fucked up.
team sport analogies for a 1on1 game hooO!
it's really not that big a deal. what they did was "wrong" but the entire blame shouldn't lie on them. correct me if i'm wrong but the korean weekly's big pull is the GSL spot and not the money. tournaments like this encourage this sort of thing where a niche of players allowed to compete don't receive the same monetary reward as others.
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On November 15 2011 16:48 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 16:38 Fubi wrote:On November 15 2011 16:30 Diamond wrote:On November 15 2011 16:29 SniXSniPe wrote:On November 15 2011 16:24 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 15 2011 16:23 Fubi wrote:On November 15 2011 16:21 red4ce wrote:
Diamond being so nice just giving Coca and Byun what amounts to a slap on the wrist. It's already mid November. A ban until Jan 1st is basically only a few more weeklies. GSL November is the last code S for the year so Coca and Byun may not lose anything from this at all. Err, being dropped out of Code S and having to requalify all the way from Code B, plus the fact that he got kicked out from the teamhouse = less opportunities to practice with good players is pretty big for me. And also they have yet to determine when they can play again, it could be longer than a few months for all we know Good, it's a well deserved punishment. If he wants to be an idiot he shall get what he deserves. Yeah, because sacrificing several thousands of dollars + a team house + a hurt reputation isn't a bit excessive for 17 year old kid who wasn't even committing that terrible of a deed. All he did was join a tournament to practice, and gave up one game to his friend. I don't see any written rule being broken anywhere--- it's not like this didn't happen at MLG for WhiteRa, or DeMusliM for the EGWC right? For gods sake, you people acted like he was one of the BW players aiming to extort the system and make thousands of dollars in an UNLAWFUL manner. From the Korean Weekly player handbook that is sent to every team, is 9 pages, and has both a English and fully translated Korean copy: "3: No cheating. This includes but is not limited to, hacks, third-party programs, minimap enlargement tools, automated scripts, “macro keys”. This also includes people messaging you in game, or account sharing/playing under an ID you did not register for. Any cheating of any kind will be dealt with harshly and we will also forward the incident to both GOM TV and the Korean Players Association, along with other notable Non-Korean tournament organizers (Teamliquid, NASL, MLG, etc). We take this VERY seriously. Not every type of cheating is covered here, but if there is a new method of cheating we don’t cover currently, it still counts. Do not test this rule. Note that violation of this rule is an automatic forfeiture of your prize money you earned in the event that the violation occurred in." Not that I don't know throwing away the game is wrong or anything, but just want to clarify, which of the following does throwing away a game fall under? : "This includes but is not limited to, hacks, third-party programs, minimap enlargement tools, automated scripts, “macro keys”. This also includes people messaging you in game, or account sharing/playing under an ID you did not register for." I'm guessing the "but is not limited to" part? But then again this would seem really vague for a rule as you can say this for almost anything "not limited to" indeed. I knew match fixing was sensitive in Korean culture, so I did not mention it by name. But either way I could have made a list of 55,000 ways to cheat and still missed some, or just left the rule vague for any situation. Even more so it still can be considered a violation of Rule #2 in the book. Show nested quote +2: The tournament administrator has the final say on all rulings. In the rare event a situation is not covered, the tournament administrator may make a ruling to cover the subject at hand and it will be added to the rules in future events. I don't allow someone "technically not breaking a rule" in my tournaments, I do leave the rules vague enough so anything shady can be covered even if it's the first time it's been seen.
No doubt, it is a very flexible policy. But the flipside is that it is a very arbitrary policy. While I think your decision was fair, more generally in relation to the Korean teams, it just comes off as arbitrary. Something this strict needs to be codified, especially where there is no ill intent.
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EPT
