[D] KA in PvT then and now- NSHoSeo_san vs MVP_sC - Page 15

On November 05 2011 17:27 _Search_ wrote:



Not assuming. Recognizing.

Not people. Code S players.




Now you're equating time spent with skill. Your comparisons are lacking.

And the "science of statistics" DOES agree with me. As Blizzard stated at Blizzcon, only in Code S is Protoss lacking. They're performing totally well in every other tournament on the planet.

On November 05 2011 17:27 _Search_ wrote:


And the "science of statistics" DOES agree with me. As Blizzard stated at Blizzcon, only in Code S is Protoss lacking. They're performing totally well in every other tournament on the planet.

On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote:
People are still herp-derping about this?

The sheer firepower at your fingertips when KA was in the game was ridiculous. Terran had no opportunity to push into the Protoss base if they won the big army battle because 4 or 5 storms could be be warped in to clean up. Not to mention its offensive potential.

Comparing it to infestors and ghosts casting fungal and emp respectively, both of these units have to wait the 50 seconds it takes to build them to be able to cast their spells. When KA was in the game, HT could cast storm after their 5 second warp-in time, and this could happen wherever the Protoss player wanted. Now it takes 50 seconds for all races to be able to cast their primary spell, and HT still has an advantage of not spawning at the gateway they are warped from.

The win rate argument is silly. Firstly, the PvT win rate is being arbitrarily linked to KA inclusion/removal. Last time I checked, HT aren't used to stop a 1/1/1? I'd like to see evidence of it being responsible for the change in win rate, other than 'well it was 50-50 then and it isn't anymore'.

Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.

The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.

As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.

TL;DR: No, read it all

On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote:
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.

The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.

As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.

TL;DR: No, read it all

On November 05 2011 17:49 zanmat0 wrote:




Oh really? The above graph clearly show that PvT was approaching 50/50 balance up until KA was removed, and since, P have been steadily falling behind.

What's next? 10,000 games isn't enough maybe? It's a waste of time to argue with people like you.

On November 05 2011 18:03 ander wrote:


I lol'd

On November 05 2011 17:44 GhostFall wrote:


I.... don't even know how to respond to this.

So I'll just post my first response:



Heck, I have my college stats course book nearby. There are 19 Code S players that are Terran. IF all matchups ZvT, ZvP, PvT are 100% perfectly balanced 50/50 (they're not), do you want me to calculate just how unlikely it is given a perfectly random distribution of people who pick up Starcraft, than it turns out 19 Terran players are in Code S by virtue of just being better. I guarantee this shit will go over yours and most other people's heads. But I'll do it, if you want to know statistically how ludicrous your argument is.

I don't even know how this adds to the discussion????? Fine, let's assume Terran players are just better. THAT STILL doesn't show me any data showing KA was so overpowered it had to be removed because it was removed so quickly.

On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:


Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.

Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.

And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.

On November 05 2011 17:47 ander wrote:


The stats of Code-S are the most heavily weighted because the best players in the world play in Code-S. You can't point to other tournaments and go "see? they're doing fine there, therefore there is no problem" because those arent the best players.

On November 05 2011 18:07 GhostFall wrote:
Well of course its retarded to attribute PvT winrate solely KA inclusion and removal. I've already mentioned this a couple times now.
But the winrate argument is this:

You nerf something because that something is overpowered.
KA was nerfed and removed.
Was KA overpowered?
If it was overpowered then why was the winrates of that matchup near 50/50 when it was removed? If it was overpowered, shouldnt winrates have shifted towards the Protoss. This never happened. And we'll never know if it will happen because they removed it so quickly.

On November 05 2011 18:07 GhostFall wrote:
Well of course its retarded to attribute PvT winrate solely KA inclusion and removal. I've already mentioned this a couple times now.
But the winrate argument is this:

You nerf something because that something is overpowered.
KA was nerfed and removed.
Was KA overpowered?
If it was overpowered then why was the winrates of that matchup near 50/50 when it was removed? If it was overpowered, shouldnt winrates have shifted towards the Protoss. This never happened. And we'll never know if it will happen because they removed it so quickly.

On November 05 2011 18:14 HystericaLaughter wrote:


No, KA wouldn't have skewed win rates in Protoss favour. Terran pretty obviously has an inherent advantage over Protoss, at least at the highest level. KA only hid that because it was also overpowered.

I would say:

You nerf something because that something is overpowered
KA was nerfed and removed
Yes KA was overpowered
Why were the win rates near 50/50 when it was removed? Because Terran was OP in other areas, KA provided a balance

This doesn't justify the reinclusion of KA, it justify's buffs to underpowered areas of Protoss, or nerfs to overpowered areas of Terran

On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:


Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units.

And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'.

On November 05 2011 18:19 Mayd wrote:
After KA nerf San dropped from code s to code b. That's how balanced KA was.

On November 04 2011 23:57 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Well my game knowledge/sense is not that strong in BW but.

At first I felt KA removal was good, considering how you can warp in units in SC2 unlike in SC1; By the time the gateway cooldown is finished, HT would have gained a good bit of energy, around or more than the 62 that HT could start with in BW if you upgraded them.

However now I just realized that Science Vessels needed 100 energy to EMP (the radius was really big tho right? as in, much better than 1 ghost EMP now, and i think it took all shield/energy away) and even if they're upgraded, they start with 62 energy.

So basically in SC2 Ghosts can start with enough energy to EMP right off the bat. So yeah either the EMP radius cooldown should help, assuming that the Science Vessel fulfilled a similar role (idk much about BW sorry), or maybe something in between removing KA and having it would have been better (nerf instead of remove)

On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:


If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm.