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On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote:
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal. Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems. And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor. Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units. And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'. If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm.
You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost.
This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT.
By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg
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On November 05 2011 18:22 _Search_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote:
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal. Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems. And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor. Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units. And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'. If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm. ...which is a perfect comparison because ghosts also take 5 seconds to build. /facepalm
Obviously not, but they don't need to wait for energy to cast their EMP.
/facepalm...
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On November 05 2011 18:17 GhostFall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:14 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:07 GhostFall wrote:
Well of course its retarded to attribute PvT winrate solely KA inclusion and removal. I've already mentioned this a couple times now.
But the winrate argument is this:
You nerf something because that something is overpowered.
KA was nerfed and removed.
Was KA overpowered?
If it was overpowered then why was the winrates of that matchup near 50/50 when it was removed? If it was overpowered, shouldnt winrates have shifted towards the Protoss. This never happened. And we'll never know if it will happen because they removed it so quickly. No, KA wouldn't have skewed win rates in Protoss favour. Terran pretty obviously has an inherent advantage over Protoss, at least at the highest level. KA only hid that because it was also overpowered. I would say: You nerf something because that something is overpowered KA was nerfed and removed Yes KA was overpowered Why were the win rates near 50/50 when it was removed? Because Terran was OP in other areas, KA provided a balance This doesn't justify the reinclusion of KA, it justify's buffs to underpowered areas of Protoss, or nerfs to overpowered areas of Terran So Terran is OP against Protoss. But it was balanced because KA was also OP. Man you would've hated Starcraft 1.
Yeah thats a bad way to balance a game. Sorry if I piss off BW players, but that kind of balance creates situations where one race or another is going to be stuffed because of the other races OP thing.
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On November 05 2011 18:16 hasuterrans wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:07 GhostFall wrote:
Well of course its retarded to attribute PvT winrate solely KA inclusion and removal. I've already mentioned this a couple times now.
But the winrate argument is this:
You nerf something because that something is overpowered.
KA was nerfed and removed.
Was KA overpowered?
If it was overpowered then why was the winrates of that matchup near 50/50 when it was removed? If it was overpowered, shouldnt winrates have shifted towards the Protoss. This never happened. And we'll never know if it will happen because they removed it so quickly. Depends what data you look at. Here is the graph for the Korean server: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HvaeL.png) KA was nerfed b/c of the win rates in Feb. 2011. You'll recall there was huge metagame shift from colossus play to HT play and mass gate way play where builds like double forge were gaining popularity. edit: overall balance has been up and down as blizzard nerfed different races and the metagame shifted extremely fast, emp is getting nerfed, i don't don't understand all the qqing
woo finally, an actual objective counter argument. Only took 3 pages. Kudos to you.
I agree that Protoss players have been qqing a lot. My point is not that KA should go back into the game. My point is, why was 1/1/1 and EMP nerfed after months of play, with winrates going all the way up to 61% for the Terran. Why was KA removed after just one metagame shift? How many different strategies did Protoss use to beat EMP before Blizzard decided to finally nerf EMP? Why didn't they wait until 5 Terrans were left in the GSL before removing KA? I am trying to clarify, the reason why you see SOOOOO many KA threads every couple of weeks, is because of this disparity.
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On November 05 2011 18:23 HystericaLaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote:
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal. Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems. And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor. Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units. And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'. If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm. You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost. This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT. By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg
If there is an advantage, it's so miniscule that it doesnt even matter. The HT can die in those 50 seconds, EMP'd, whatever. You can liken the HT waiting for storm to be it's build time.
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On November 05 2011 18:24 ander wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:22 _Search_ wrote:On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote:
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal. Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems. And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor. Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units. And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'. If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm. ...which is a perfect comparison because ghosts also take 5 seconds to build. /facepalm Obviously not, but they don't need to wait for energy to cast their EMP. /facepalm...
No, just the time it takes to get a Templar with storm is still shorter than it takes the time for an upped Ghost to train and travel to the battle.
On November 05 2011 18:28 ander wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:23 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote:
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instanatly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal. Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems. And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor. Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units. And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'. If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm. You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost. This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT. By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg If there is an advantage, it's so miniscule that it doesnt even matter. The HT can die in those 50 seconds, EMP'd, whatever. You can liken the HT waiting for storm to be it's build time.
Or they can feedback, transform into an Archon...
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On November 05 2011 18:24 ander wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:22 _Search_ wrote:On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote:
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal. Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems. And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor. Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units. And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'. If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm. ...which is a perfect comparison because ghosts also take 5 seconds to build. /facepalm Obviously not, but they don't need to wait for energy to cast their EMP. /facepalm...
Yes they do...
Ghosts wait 50 seconds inside a barracks
HT wait 5 seconds while warping, then 45 seconds somewhere on the map
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On November 05 2011 18:26 GhostFall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:16 hasuterrans wrote:On November 05 2011 18:07 GhostFall wrote:
Well of course its retarded to attribute PvT winrate solely KA inclusion and removal. I've already mentioned this a couple times now.
But the winrate argument is this:
You nerf something because that something is overpowered.
KA was nerfed and removed.
Was KA overpowered?
If it was overpowered then why was the winrates of that matchup near 50/50 when it was removed? If it was overpowered, shouldnt winrates have shifted towards the Protoss. This never happened. And we'll never know if it will happen because they removed it so quickly. Depends what data you look at. Here is the graph for the Korean server: KA was nerfed b/c of the win rates in Feb. 2011. You'll recall there was huge metagame shift from colossus play to HT play and mass gate way play where builds like double forge were gaining popularity. edit: overall balance has been up and down as blizzard nerfed different races and the metagame shifted extremely fast, emp is getting nerfed, i don't don't understand all the qqing woo finally, an actual objective counter argument. Only took 3 pages. Kudos to you. I agree that Protoss players have been qqing a lot. My point is not that KA should go back into the game. My point is, why was 1/1/1 and EMP nerfed after months of play, with winrates going all the way up to 61% for the Terran. Why was KA removed after just one metagame shift? How many different strategies did Protoss use to beat EMP before Blizzard decided to finally nerf EMP? Why didn't they wait until 5 Terrans were left in the GSL before removing KA?
Personally I think hey should revert the KA nerf. Back then nobody used ghosts, and if the did it was very few. Now that Terran's have learned to use ghosts properly te KA nerf is not necessary.
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On November 05 2011 18:28 ander wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:23 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote:
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal. Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems. And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor. Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units. And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'. If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm. You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost. This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT. By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg If there is an advantage, it's so miniscule that it doesnt even matter. The HT can die in those 50 seconds, EMP'd, whatever. You can liken the HT waiting for storm to be it's build time.
No you can't. The HT can still be used while on the map, albeit only for feedback or an archon morph. A ghost building in a barracks can do literally nothing.
Major difference
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On November 05 2011 18:26 GhostFall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:16 hasuterrans wrote:On November 05 2011 18:07 GhostFall wrote:
Well of course its retarded to attribute PvT winrate solely KA inclusion and removal. I've already mentioned this a couple times now.
But the winrate argument is this:
You nerf something because that something is overpowered.
KA was nerfed and removed.
Was KA overpowered?
If it was overpowered then why was the winrates of that matchup near 50/50 when it was removed? If it was overpowered, shouldnt winrates have shifted towards the Protoss. This never happened. And we'll never know if it will happen because they removed it so quickly. Depends what data you look at. Here is the graph for the Korean server: KA was nerfed b/c of the win rates in Feb. 2011. You'll recall there was huge metagame shift from colossus play to HT play and mass gate way play where builds like double forge were gaining popularity. edit: overall balance has been up and down as blizzard nerfed different races and the metagame shifted extremely fast, emp is getting nerfed, i don't don't understand all the qqing woo finally, an actual objective counter argument. Only took 3 pages. Kudos to you. I agree that Protoss players have been qqing a lot. My point is not that KA should go back into the game. My point is, why was 1/1/1 and EMP nerfed after months of play, with winrates going all the way up to 61% for the Terran. Why was KA removed after just one metagame shift? How many different strategies did Protoss use to beat EMP before Blizzard decided to finally nerf EMP? Why didn't they wait until 5 Terrans were left in the GSL before removing KA?
Don't ask me. I don't understand why they nerfed thors just b/c of one tournament or the huge siege tank nerf pre 1.2. Why are they removing the reaper's D-8 charges and giving the reaper regen in HotS? Fuck if I know.
Personally I wish Blizzard would be more conservative in their balance changes and give players more time to figure things out.
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On November 05 2011 18:32 hasuterrans wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:26 GhostFall wrote:On November 05 2011 18:16 hasuterrans wrote:On November 05 2011 18:07 GhostFall wrote:
Well of course its retarded to attribute PvT winrate solely KA inclusion and removal. I've already mentioned this a couple times now.
But the winrate argument is this:
You nerf something because that something is overpowered.
KA was nerfed and removed.
Was KA overpowered?
If it was overpowered then why was the winrates of that matchup near 50/50 when it was removed? If it was overpowered, shouldnt winrates have shifted towards the Protoss. This never happened. And we'll never know if it will happen because they removed it so quickly. Depends what data you look at. Here is the graph for the Korean server: KA was nerfed b/c of the win rates in Feb. 2011. You'll recall there was huge metagame shift from colossus play to HT play and mass gate way play where builds like double forge were gaining popularity. edit: overall balance has been up and down as blizzard nerfed different races and the metagame shifted extremely fast, emp is getting nerfed, i don't don't understand all the qqing woo finally, an actual objective counter argument. Only took 3 pages. Kudos to you. I agree that Protoss players have been qqing a lot. My point is not that KA should go back into the game. My point is, why was 1/1/1 and EMP nerfed after months of play, with winrates going all the way up to 61% for the Terran. Why was KA removed after just one metagame shift? How many different strategies did Protoss use to beat EMP before Blizzard decided to finally nerf EMP? Why didn't they wait until 5 Terrans were left in the GSL before removing KA? Don't ask me. I don't understand why they nerfed thors just b/c of one tournament or the huge siege tank nerf pre 1.2. Why are they removing the reaper's D-8 charges and giving the reaper regen in HotS? Fuck if I know. Personally I wish Blizzard would be more conservative in their balance changes and give players more time to figure things out.
One game in one tourney at that...
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On November 05 2011 18:22 _Search_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote:
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal. Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems. And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor. Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units. And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'. If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm. ...which is a perfect comparison because ghosts also take 5 seconds to build. /facepalm
Not like u need EMP to get back into the game after the big engagement. U have bunkers, PFs and MMM for that.
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On November 05 2011 18:32 hasuterrans wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:26 GhostFall wrote:On November 05 2011 18:16 hasuterrans wrote:On November 05 2011 18:07 GhostFall wrote:
Well of course its retarded to attribute PvT winrate solely KA inclusion and removal. I've already mentioned this a couple times now.
But the winrate argument is this:
You nerf something because that something is overpowered.
KA was nerfed and removed.
Was KA overpowered?
If it was overpowered then why was the winrates of that matchup near 50/50 when it was removed? If it was overpowered, shouldnt winrates have shifted towards the Protoss. This never happened. And we'll never know if it will happen because they removed it so quickly. Depends what data you look at. Here is the graph for the Korean server: KA was nerfed b/c of the win rates in Feb. 2011. You'll recall there was huge metagame shift from colossus play to HT play and mass gate way play where builds like double forge were gaining popularity. edit: overall balance has been up and down as blizzard nerfed different races and the metagame shifted extremely fast, emp is getting nerfed, i don't don't understand all the qqing woo finally, an actual objective counter argument. Only took 3 pages. Kudos to you. I agree that Protoss players have been qqing a lot. My point is not that KA should go back into the game. My point is, why was 1/1/1 and EMP nerfed after months of play, with winrates going all the way up to 61% for the Terran. Why was KA removed after just one metagame shift? How many different strategies did Protoss use to beat EMP before Blizzard decided to finally nerf EMP? Why didn't they wait until 5 Terrans were left in the GSL before removing KA? Don't ask me. I don't understand why they nerfed thors just b/c of one tournament or the huge siege tank nerf pre 1.2. Why are they removing the reaper's D-8 charges and giving the reaper regen in HotS? Fuck if I know. Personally I wish Blizzard would be more conservative in their balance changes and give players more time to figure things out.
Oh god I raged so hard when they nerfed the Thor because of one tournament. Even more so because they said it wasn't imbalanced, but just that "it didn't look right."
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On November 05 2011 18:33 DrGreen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:22 _Search_ wrote:On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote:
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal. Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems. And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor. Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units. And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'. If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm. ...which is a perfect comparison because ghosts also take 5 seconds to build. /facepalm Not like u need EMP to get back into the game after the big engagement. U have bunkers, PFs and MMM for that.
Not what we are talking about. We aren't talking about recovery after losing your army, just the way the spellcasters function and when they can cast their spells etc.
Irrelevant point is irrelevant
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On November 05 2011 18:23 HystericaLaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote:
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal. Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems. And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor. Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units. And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'. If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm. You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost. This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT. By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg
You're just going to ignore the gateway cooldown time? Do you really think toss can literally warp in units every 5 seconds?
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On November 05 2011 18:42 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:23 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote:
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal. Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems. And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor. Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units. And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'. If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm. You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost. This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT. By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg You're just going to ignore the gateway cooldown time? Do you really think toss can literally warp in units every 5 seconds?
Of course not. I don't where you got this assumption. Both Terran and Protoss can create a ghost/HT every 50 seconds.
Difference is, for every production cycle, Protoss have a HT after 5 seconds, Terran have a ghost after 50
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by the way, infestor has 50 sec building time as well.
50 sec infestor building time, 50 sec ghost building time, 5 sec high templar building time + 45 sec waiting time
i think the amulet was way too strong, because if protoss says "i need an high templar now" they get one in 5 seconds, whereas terran/zerg has to plan 50 seconds ahead (and for zerg it is easy to lose a couple hatcheries in 50 seconds, so you have to be aware of where you build them or they are just as dead as HT waiting on the map). Also ghosts/infestor still need an upgrade that does not come cheap to have the same starting energy an HT has if you build it and wait 45 seconds.
oh, and if you think about gateway cooldown time to warp in new stuff, don't forget about the need for larvae to produce anything and that terran has to wait as well until the stuff they are building atm is finished (cancel on unit production is lost unit production, compare it to idle warpgates)
Also, HT standing around for 45 seconds isn't really that vulnerable, don't forget they can morph into a really powerful archon if necessary (infestors burrow, ghosts cloak, but you have to research both as well)
and as has been mentioned before, warpin is still strong for HT, you can warp in to kill banshees w/o cloak and medivacs with a lot energy, also get detection and a pylon and if there ever is an infestor hit squad heading your base just warp in a couple HT and problem solved (see showmatch series Grubby vs Destiny the game on Xel'Naga caverns)
So stats-wise the high templar is already slightly on the OP side of balance. I don't think you should try to fix a matchup by making a single unit too powerful (blizzard seems to think that way too, remember infestor nerf. Now fungal growth is less good and neural parasite often times worthless)
what was rather interesting to me: if zealots get kited to death, terran wins. But have you ever seen a complete surround with zealots + walls + FF on the terran army, with few colossus and archons ( < 3) to provide some AoE? Terran gets annihilated so badly every single time. In PvZ protoss have figured out how to forcefield vs certain unit compositions, in PvT they often times just seem to A-move and rage if their colossi don't smash everything while the terran endlessly kites zealots and colossi with MMM + vikings.
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On November 05 2011 18:46 HystericaLaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:42 tomatriedes wrote:On November 05 2011 18:23 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote:
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal. Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems. And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor. Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units. And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'. If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm. You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost. This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT. By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg You're just going to ignore the gateway cooldown time? Do you really think toss can literally warp in units every 5 seconds? Of course not. I don't where you got this assumption. Both Terran and Protoss can create a ghost/HT every 50 seconds. Difference is, for every production cycle, Protoss have a HT after 5 seconds, Terran have a ghost after 50
Even then, it's not like in the late-game Toss doesn't have plenty of idle gates. They pretty much CAN "literally warp in units every 5 seconds" as the situation and their economy allows.
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On November 05 2011 18:48 _Search_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:46 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:42 tomatriedes wrote:On November 05 2011 18:23 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote:
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal. Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems. And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor. Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units. And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'. If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm. You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost. This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT. By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg You're just going to ignore the gateway cooldown time? Do you really think toss can literally warp in units every 5 seconds? Of course not. I don't where you got this assumption. Both Terran and Protoss can create a ghost/HT every 50 seconds. Difference is, for every production cycle, Protoss have a HT after 5 seconds, Terran have a ghost after 50 Even then, it's not like in the late-game Toss doesn't have plenty of idle gates. They pretty much CAN "literally warp in units every 5 seconds" as the situation and their economy allows.
This is also true. I think you and I have been on the same wavelength for the last few pages 
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On November 05 2011 18:46 HystericaLaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:42 tomatriedes wrote:On November 05 2011 18:23 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote:
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal. Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems. And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor. Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units. And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'. If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm. You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost. This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT. By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg You're just going to ignore the gateway cooldown time? Do you really think toss can literally warp in units every 5 seconds? Of course not. I don't where you got this assumption. Both Terran and Protoss can create a ghost/HT every 50 seconds. Difference is, for every production cycle, Protoss have a HT after 5 seconds, Terran have a ghost after 50
Because the cooldown is part of the protoss production cycle. And it's not true that there are always idle gateways. If you've just warped in units and you want to create a high temp you're going to have to wait for the cooldown to finish. It's disingenuous to act as though protoss is always 5 seonds away from having a high temp ready.
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EPT
