Protoss up 1 base most of game? A gold base ahead for 4 minutes... from 15 minutes till 19 minutes. Harassing with warp prisms. Now SC makes more ghosts, uses snipe or EMP depending on what is better at that point in time. Makes a viking to finally shut down the harass at his main.
Every big engagement goes in favor of Terran I think.
And I don't think you can say SC is better than San, because San beat him earlier in the series when SC tried to do a 1 base all in. SC did beat Oz with a delayed 1/1/1 one base build in game 5. San's PvP seems lacking, but PvT he seems solid... but can't hold on going HT + DT + gateway + warp prism.
Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT?
Im not sure if KA made for a more balanced game but it presents us with a BW situation. Where one thing is really strong for one race the other race has a similarly strong spell/thing which provided for very very interesting back and forth situations.
I used to liken KA to a planetary fortress. If you are going to attack my base you damn well better know it and be prepared for an attack - not just sending small numbers of units.
Well my game knowledge/sense is not that strong in BW but.
At first I felt KA removal was good, considering how you can warp in units in SC2 unlike in SC1; By the time the gateway cooldown is finished, HT would have gained a good bit of energy, around or more than the 62 that HT could start with in BW if you upgraded them.
However now I just realized that Science Vessels needed 100 energy to EMP (the radius was really big tho right? as in, much better than 1 ghost EMP now, and i think it took all shield/energy away) and even if they're upgraded, they start with 62 energy.
So basically in SC2 Ghosts can start with enough energy to EMP right off the bat. So yeah either the EMP radius cooldown should help, assuming that the Science Vessel fulfilled a similar role (idk much about BW sorry), or maybe something in between removing KA and having it would have been better (nerf instead of remove)
All I can say that EMPs were a whole lot less devastating because you could warp in HTs after all the EMPs were off, so even though your army's shields were all gone, you could still safely land storms which would even out the battle a bit.
It didn't make a huge difference in PvZ or PvP. I liked the upgrade personally, I think they should have just made it 15+ energy instead of 25+ or even not touched it at all.
No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
is that really why it was removed? I thought it was because the terran could wipe out the army of protoss, but the toss could just constantly warp in templar with storms and take out the army before it did any more damage.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
Yes I think KA was rather OP because warp in storms are just too damaging and versatile. It only takes about 20-30s for a HT to get the energy it needs from warpin till Storm which adds a slight amount of planning the P has to do.
Trying to base this argument off one game is pretty silly imo, even with the old game (which is how many months old? plus hasn't there been a ton of other balance changes?)
Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT?
Really? You think the most recent patch qualifies as "wildly game changing patches"? This has to be one of the least game changing Patch for SC2 yet, Emp radius nerf is the biggest change and P's will now have an extra handfull of resources when powering upgrades (a piddly amount, but a nice bonus nonetheless). Overall I've found the patches pretty tame with the exception of a few big tweaks (such as WG nerf, ramp vision, Neral Nerf).
I think your argument is just too flimsy, and I think most people will agree that KA was OP.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
HT warp in harass was better with KA just due to less risk of the warp prism being shot down filled with HT. As far as damage, I'd put it somewhere near but below baneling drops on minerals. Fungals vs minerals seems stronger than psi storm as well, and infestors can get there burrowed, so I'd rate that as equal to HT with KA aggression. Bio drops on minerals seem really good still, at least equal to HT + KA if not better since they can take out buildings if the opportunity presents itself.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
What? So why can't you just put your warp prism in to warp mode, warp 2 ht, load em up and drop in your opponent's mineral line. I'm confused.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
If the Terran pulls probes when you start to warp-in you can just cancel it by transforming the prism. In other words, doing damage and just risking a 200 mineral warp prism. If you fly around with HT's in a Warp Prism, there is a good chance it will die with your really expensive HT's inside it. Besides, there are some expansions (usually late-game expansions) where you could warp-in on the high ground behind the base.
What they probably could do to make HT's better again is shorter storm research time and making it a bit cheaper. This would lessen the risk, they have already reduced the reward of going this path. Going back to warp-in HT's with storm is not a good option I think.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
What? So why can't you just put your warp prism in to warp mode, warp 2 ht, load em up and drop in your opponent's mineral line. I'm confused.
Edit: ok I understand you now.
You do, but you wait a bit for them to get enough energy. You just have to wait extra 10 sec ( if you flight is 10 sec).
On November 05 2011 00:17 Jtom wrote:
What about an infestor drop? It does the same only there is no escape.
Dont understand what do you mean? The discussion is about KA and storm drops.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
If the Terran pulls probes when you start to warp-in you can just cancel it by transforming the prism. In other words, doing damage and just risking a 200 mineral warp prism. If you fly around with HT's in a Warp Prism, there is a good chance it will die with your really expensive HT's inside it. Besides, there are some expansions (usually late-game expansions) where you could warp-in on the high ground behind the base.
Imo that late into the game, few seconds off mining time isnt big of a deal. With the risk part i do agree but if you dont risk you wont kill any scvs and that is your goal.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
What about an infestor drop? It does the same only there is no escape.
Shush! You must know by now that one can only complain and want to nerf T and P harrassment options (bf hellions and templar). Insta killing entire mineral lines baneling drops and infestor oh btw you cant get away even if you did spot me pop up (oh yeah cause i can get to your worker line burrowed btw) must not be mentioned! :D
Personally i hated KA, nerfing emp and looking to buff other elements of toss (gateway) units is the better way to go imo.
The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
On November 05 2011 00:05 Tictock wrote: Yes I think KA was rather OP because warp in storms are just too damaging and versatile. It only takes about 20-30s for a HT to get the energy it needs from warpin till Storm which adds a slight amount of planning the P has to do.
Trying to base this argument off one game is pretty silly imo, even with the old game (which is how many months old? plus hasn't there been a ton of other balance changes?)
Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT?
Really? You think the most recent patch qualifies as "wildly game changing patches"? This has to be one of the least game changing Patch for SC2 yet, Emp radius nerf is the biggest change and P's will now have an extra handfull of resources when powering upgrades (a piddly amount, but a nice bonus nonetheless). Overall I've found the patches pretty tame with the exception of a few big tweaks (such as WG nerf, ramp vision, Neral Nerf).
I think your argument is just too flimsy, and I think most people will agree that KA was OP.
Actually it takes 44.44 game seconds for a currently warped in HT to get 75 energy. Energy regen rate is 0.5625 via Liquipedia.
There are several games in the old series that make KA look fine. Like games where SC wins battles even without using ghosts and comes from behind and doesn't use any harassment. Games were balance changes since then don't make a difference other than archons getting big buffs. But more usage of ghosts counters archons, so I think it's a fair comparison.
About the wild balance changes, I was referring to everything done to PvT since KA removal. Archon buffs, immortal buffs, medivac speed decrease ... was that after KA removal... etc. And Browder himself said the upgrade changes for the PTR was huge in the TL interview.
Wait, am I missing something from the OP? I really don't understand how those 2 games show anything about KA at all. First game is San vs Sc and second game is Oz vs MKP. So you are trying to analyze balance based off of 2 games with completely different players? You may have a point but the extreme lack of effort to provide any basis seriously hinders this argument. IIRC, even a large portion of Protoss players back then were convinced that KA was pretty damn broken.
Khaydarian amulet was OK, warpgates are not. They just felt they couldn't remove warpgates since they made Protoss unique and novel to rts games. In my opinion they made a mistake. Blizzard just couldn't back down on something they hyped so much.
I think one thing people dont consider is travel time... HT is one of the slowest units in the game, far slower than roaches before speed upgrade off creep, and lack of KA means if we want to storm offensively we have to walk many of these very slow units across the map, and if something goes wrong, miscontrol etc and they ever clump up, or they just all get EMP'd, we simply dont have templar for that attack any more as all the new ones were either being warped at home, or have only 50 energy. Its very hard to play with templar, and very unforgiving if you mess up slightly because of that...
Also, i liked that with KA, if protoss lost an engagement and was down a notable number of supply, they could fall back and use warp in storms to stay alive... as it stands, terran can fall back to bunkers/pf's, and if the protoss player doesnt have a 50+ supply lead OR a large number of colossi, he cant really engage i think, whereas protoss is far more vunerable to just dieing.
It's just going to take time... Watch White-Ra's games. The guy is a FUCKING BEAST. He uses speed upgraded warp prisms to hold his HT safe from EMP, and drop micros them JUST LIKE REAVERS back in BW. KA needed to be removed / changed, as it was a bit OP to be able to warp in a very powerful storm anywhere on the map at any given time (with psi)... but with play like WhiteRa's warp prism / HT... there is no need for KA.
nerfing KA or some way in which the HT interacts with the upgrade would have been enough to help the balance of the game. blizzard decided to just faceroll balance the ability by deleting it and imo hurt the balance a little. people have been suggesting KA be modified (nerfed) but not removed since blizzard announced its removal. some suggest that HTs start with a cooldown on storm but keep KA as-is. some suggest that the upgrade give less than 25 energy. anything but remove it, really. browder said at blizzcon that they are very happy with they way they handled KA. i think they handled it very poorly
On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote: The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote: The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
the nature of warp-in made KA very powerful. instantly reinforcing a holofield position with a storm or two was amazing. HTs building out of a gateway weren't the concern.
On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote: The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference
Are you seriously going to use 2 games as a basis for your point?
Lets forget that Ghosts were not used that much before, lets forget that equally skilled players can take games off each other any other day, lets forget that unti control has improved dramatically, hell lets not even take into account that maybe SC played better on that specific game?
We can argue all we want about the past game changes(and seriously?¨ wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced.¨) same as we can argue why 150 mins spawning pool was balanced in SC, but its useless to argue only one change things have changed a lot since then(and I am not talking about Patches solely, players have gotten waaay better).
In my opinion the KA change was perfectly fine, I don´t think an outright removal was a solution(and hopefully Blizzard will revise that on HotS) but Storm with amulet was a free get out of jail card for P most of the time. I do think it should have been tweaked instead of removing, but seriously is there a point to this? You don´t provide much analysis aside from ¨Oh this game with KA looked pretty even¨ and ¨this game without KA was not even, coincidence?¨
On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote: The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference
Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot.
You just -CANNOT- make KA work together with WG tech. It's ridiculous. Not even worth discussing.
The only HT modifications that I can see happening are - +MS change, +Range on Feedback/Storm or both. And I assume one of them will actually get implemented.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
I would argue that in the time it takes to warp in an HT and storm the mineral line, the probes could all be pulled safely away.
In 5 seconds.. +2 seconds for the storm, to kill most of the workers on a mineral line
I bet you that 8 stimmed marines (which represent less of an investment) could wipe out an entire mineral line in 7 seconds as well
The thing is that 8 marines could kill more than just a couple of probes (that could have easily been pulled away)
KA did 2 things Basically heavily weaken drops and make Toss reinforcements that much stronger (Basically make it impossible to counter after big engagements since double stim hurts your units so much.
KA had no offensive use that could not be solved with micro.
On November 05 2011 00:52 n0ise wrote: KA is fine on it's own.
You just -CANNOT- make KA work together with WG tech. It's ridiculous. Not even worth discussing.
The only HT modifications that I can see happening are - +MS change, +Range on Feedback/Storm or both. And I assume one of them will actually get implemented.
Then I would argue that it is ridiculous that medivacs can heal. In BW (like so many people like to bring up), if you wanted to heal your stimmed marines, you would need to bring some medivacs with them. 6 marines and 2 medics in a dropship deal much less than 8 marines in a medivac
On November 05 2011 00:30 SupLilSon wrote: Wait, am I missing something from the OP? I really don't understand how those 2 games show anything about KA at all. First game is San vs Sc and second game is Oz vs MKP. So you are trying to analyze balance based off of 2 games with completely different players? You may have a point but the extreme lack of effort to provide any basis seriously hinders this argument. IIRC, even a large portion of Protoss players back then were convinced that KA was pretty damn broken.
All of the games from the old series involved KA just about. Game 9 of the new series is of the same players with heavy HT play but no KA. That's 6 games, plus a non KA game to show San and SC's skill is still about equal.
San is known for liking HT play, but the fact that he gets curbstomped when he's a whole gold base ahead (3 bases to 2) for 4 game minutes is mindblowing. I think that one game is a perfect example of why KA makes more sense than the route Blizz is trying to take.
Leave EMP on ghosts (at 1.5 radius) and we get KA back
OR
Give KA back but either make Templars un-warpable or take a long time to warp.
OR
Give Ghosts less energy/make EMP cost more
The pre-KA-change situation was borderline imba, and Blizzard's fix may have been somewhat harsh on Protoss, but the changes you suggested might be a bit rough for us Terrans (and Dustin Browder, lol) to accept.
On November 04 2011 23:51 RemrafGrez wrote: Old games with khaydarin amulet lasted 40+ minutes and were very close going to one player or the other. See here: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors2/vod/62509
Protoss up 1 base most of game? A gold base ahead for 4 minutes... from 15 minutes till 19 minutes. Harassing with warp prisms. Now SC makes more ghosts, uses snipe or EMP depending on what is better at that point in time. Makes a viking to finally shut down the harass at his main.
Every big engagement goes in favor of Terran I think.
And I don't think you can say SC is better than San, because San beat him earlier in the series when SC tried to do a 1 base all in. SC did beat Oz with a delayed 1/1/1 one base build in game 5. San's PvP seems lacking, but PvT he seems solid... but can't hold on going HT + DT + gateway + warp prism.
Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT?
Sc is way better than San and has been way better than San for a long time...
On November 04 2011 23:51 RemrafGrez wrote: Old games with khaydarin amulet lasted 40+ minutes and were very close going to one player or the other. See here: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors2/vod/62509
Protoss up 1 base most of game? A gold base ahead for 4 minutes... from 15 minutes till 19 minutes. Harassing with warp prisms. Now SC makes more ghosts, uses snipe or EMP depending on what is better at that point in time. Makes a viking to finally shut down the harass at his main.
Every big engagement goes in favor of Terran I think.
And I don't think you can say SC is better than San, because San beat him earlier in the series when SC tried to do a 1 base all in. SC did beat Oz with a delayed 1/1/1 one base build in game 5. San's PvP seems lacking, but PvT he seems solid... but can't hold on going HT + DT + gateway + warp prism.
Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT?
Sc is way better than San and has been way better than San for a long time...
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
Easier said than done, anybody who expects the radius EMP change to balance PvT is a fool, the radius is not the problem it's the fact that's it's instant, it's not a research and it does too much damage.
On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote: The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference
Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot.
Great point! We should have troops calldown if they bring back KA.. NOW WE'RE TALKING!
And a lot of you are just looking at PvT, what about PvZ and PvP?
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
Easier said than done, anybody who expects the radius EMP change to balance PvT is a fool, the radius is not the problem it's the fact that's it's instant, it's not a research and it does too much damage.
Agreed. The blanket emps will still wreck the protoss army just the same as before. There will be no change. Prior to 1.4.2, the emps just redundantly hit multiple units multiple times.
The net effect is that instead of draining all protoss sheilds and energy with 700 redundant sheild drain, there will only be 200 redundant sheild drain...
On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote: The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference
Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot.
Great point! We should have troops calldown.. NOW WE'RE TALKING!
And a lot of you are just looking at PvT, what about PvZ and PvP?
PvZ KA will help defend vs mutas It may be an alternative to colosus against hydras. KA not good vs roaches, brood lords, ultras.. onyl good vs clumped lings and vs hydras. drop play is risky vs zerg because they get easy map cotnrol
PvP this would be interesting. obviuosly mirror matches should be held to a different measure of balance.. but if this results in less colosus battles, id be all for it
What if KA came back but instead of increasing starting energy it just increased the rate of energy generation by a small amount so that storms from warp ins came quicker but weren't instant?
I would say the KA was OP and u cant compare storm with EMP just for the one reason u can kill units with a storm but u can get off 1 billion emps on the protoss army and no unit will die ...
On November 05 2011 00:50 Noocta wrote: Stop with KA seriously.
Warp a templar, wait for energy to storm = produce a ghost/ infestor with energy upgrade
It's the SAME TIME.
This might be true, but then what is the point of having high templars on warpgate tech? If you have to warp in and wait, then there is no difference to having made them from a gateway or a robo. It seems useless to have high templars on warpgat etech if you have to wait anyway. It makes high templars the exceptions to warpgate tech, which feels awkward.
On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote: The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference
Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot.
Great point! We should have troops calldown.. NOW WE'RE TALKING!
And a lot of you are just looking at PvT, what about PvZ and PvP?
PvZ KA will help defend vs mutas It may be an alternative to colosus against hydras. KA not good vs roaches, brood lords, ultras.. onyl good vs clumped lings and vs hydras. drop play is risky vs zerg because they get easy map cotnrol
PvP this would be interesting. obviuosly mirror matches should be held to a different measure of balance.. but if this results in less colosus battles, id be all for it
You are confusing what is good. Storm is good against Mutas and an alternative to Colossi vs Hydras. KA does not make storm better or worse vs these things. What KA does it make it so it removes any strategical positioning with your HT and army. You don't have to use anything to defend until you need to defend which removes a big element of play. The opponent can no longer force your hand into a specific position so he can abuse a hole it creates somewhere else since with KA there are no holes.
That in a nutshell is why KA was removed. It doesn't add options to the game, it removes them.
On November 04 2011 23:51 RemrafGrez wrote: Old games with khaydarin amulet lasted 40+ minutes and were very close going to one player or the other. See here: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors2/vod/62509
Protoss up 1 base most of game? A gold base ahead for 4 minutes... from 15 minutes till 19 minutes. Harassing with warp prisms. Now SC makes more ghosts, uses snipe or EMP depending on what is better at that point in time. Makes a viking to finally shut down the harass at his main.
Every big engagement goes in favor of Terran I think.
And I don't think you can say SC is better than San, because San beat him earlier in the series when SC tried to do a 1 base all in. SC did beat Oz with a delayed 1/1/1 one base build in game 5. San's PvP seems lacking, but PvT he seems solid... but can't hold on going HT + DT + gateway + warp prism.
Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT?
Sc is way better than San and has been way better than San for a long time...
This!! I remember that game. First off, I think it was on old Terminus where every player could turtle on 3bases. Sc basically won after 20minutes, but San could just everytime instant warp in storm which saved him as Sc was running around with very few medivacs. Sc finally won after 40min after destroying several expos when San ran out of gas and couldnt produce hts anymore. He was called wack-a-mole toss because of this game. It only showed how broke KA and warp tech in combination was as San stayed waaaaay longer in that game than he should have. I still think blizzard shouldnt remove KA, maybe only add 15energy instead of 25? But the example of the OP was just terrible....
On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote: The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference
Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot.
Great point! We should have troops calldown if they bring back KA.. NOW WE'RE TALKING!
And a lot of you are just looking at PvT, what about PvZ and PvP?
Storms have always been a non-issue in PvP. In PvZ they only seemed to impact super heavy muta plays. There was a series between San (I think) and Nestea in the GSL a while back where he barely held a heavy, heavy muta play using warp in storms. I don't really see this as an issue because heavy muta plays are something P lacks a really solid response to and it wouldn't break the matchup by any means.
On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote: The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference
Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot.
Great point! We should have troops calldown.. NOW WE'RE TALKING!
And a lot of you are just looking at PvT, what about PvZ and PvP?
PvZ KA will help defend vs mutas It may be an alternative to colosus against hydras. KA not good vs roaches, brood lords, ultras.. onyl good vs clumped lings and vs hydras. drop play is risky vs zerg because they get easy map cotnrol
PvP this would be interesting. obviuosly mirror matches should be held to a different measure of balance.. but if this results in less colosus battles, id be all for it
You are confusing what is good. Storm is good against Mutas and an alternative to Colossi vs Hydras. KA does not make storm better or worse vs these things. What KA does it make it so it removes any strategical positioning with your HT and army. You don't have to use anything to defend until you need to defend which removes a big element of play. The opponent can no longer force your hand into a specific position so he can abuse a hole it creates somewhere else since with KA there are no holes.
That in a nutshell is why KA was removed. It doesn't add options to the game, it removes them.
KA doesnt make the deathball stronger. Any templars sitting in your deathabll will already have enough energy anyways.
Protoss units are not very mobile, and they are very weak when not all together. Protoss is also the race that is most dependent on gas. It is too weakening to them to have 2 HT and a couple zealots sitting in EVERY base.
Drops are already really devastating. If your gates are on cooldown, you have no choice but to move your whole (or at least half) army do defend the drop.
On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote: The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference
Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot.
Great point! We should have troops calldown.. NOW WE'RE TALKING!
And a lot of you are just looking at PvT, what about PvZ and PvP?
PvZ KA will help defend vs mutas It may be an alternative to colosus against hydras. KA not good vs roaches, brood lords, ultras.. onyl good vs clumped lings and vs hydras. drop play is risky vs zerg because they get easy map cotnrol
PvP this would be interesting. obviuosly mirror matches should be held to a different measure of balance.. but if this results in less colosus battles, id be all for it
You are confusing what is good. Storm is good against Mutas and an alternative to Colossi vs Hydras. KA does not make storm better or worse vs these things. What KA does it make it so it removes any strategical positioning with your HT and army. You don't have to use anything to defend until you need to defend which removes a big element of play. The opponent can no longer force your hand into a specific position so he can abuse a hole it creates somewhere else since with KA there are no holes.
That in a nutshell is why KA was removed. It doesn't add options to the game, it removes them.
KA doesnt make the deathball stronger. Any templars sitting in your deathabll will already have enough energy anyways.
Protoss units are not very mobile, and they are very weak when not all together. Protoss is also the race that is most dependent on gas. It is too weakening to them to have 2 HT and a couple zealots sitting in EVERY base.
Drops are already really devastating. If your gates are on cooldown, you have no choice but to move your whole (or at least half) army do defend the drop.
You basically saying you want a invincible race. Cool
Every big engagement should favor terran as it takes them so much longer to reproduce, I thought the 100 pages of thread on the KA patch pretty much mooted discussion of this but apparently not. The upgrade made it so that as long as a Protoss had gas, the amount of units Terran had at the end of engagements were irrelevant, it was ridiculous and needed to be nerfed/removed.
I still played random then too, so I wasn't favored one way or the other, but every Protoss had to admit that it was a bit too easy. Game length really doesn't mean anything, and you need a RIDICULOUSLY LARGER sample to say it does. And sC is >san then and now IMO.
On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote: The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference
Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot.
Great point! We should have troops calldown.. NOW WE'RE TALKING!
And a lot of you are just looking at PvT, what about PvZ and PvP?
PvZ KA will help defend vs mutas It may be an alternative to colosus against hydras. KA not good vs roaches, brood lords, ultras.. onyl good vs clumped lings and vs hydras. drop play is risky vs zerg because they get easy map cotnrol
PvP this would be interesting. obviuosly mirror matches should be held to a different measure of balance.. but if this results in less colosus battles, id be all for it
You are confusing what is good. Storm is good against Mutas and an alternative to Colossi vs Hydras. KA does not make storm better or worse vs these things. What KA does it make it so it removes any strategical positioning with your HT and army. You don't have to use anything to defend until you need to defend which removes a big element of play. The opponent can no longer force your hand into a specific position so he can abuse a hole it creates somewhere else since with KA there are no holes.
That in a nutshell is why KA was removed. It doesn't add options to the game, it removes them.
KA doesnt make the deathball stronger. Any templars sitting in your deathabll will already have enough energy anyways.
Protoss units are not very mobile, and they are very weak when not all together. Protoss is also the race that is most dependent on gas. It is too weakening to them to have 2 HT and a couple zealots sitting in EVERY base.
Drops are already really devastating. If your gates are on cooldown, you have no choice but to move your whole (or at least half) army do defend the drop.
You basically saying you want a invincible race. Cool
How does that make the race invincible? 1 storm wont stop a drop all on its own. Drops require a hell of a lot more than 1 template to drop.
Protoss never wins a battle cost effectively in small numbers unless someone is attacking into a place they really shouldnt be attackign into.
There is such little risk attacking protoss as a harassment. You get in, do damage, and are out before protoss can respond.
Against terran and zerg, whatever you drop in the enemy base will almost certainly die before doing damage greater than the cost of the units doing the damage.
Are you saying you want to be able to have blind success doing drops? You dont want there to be any risk involved?
On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote: The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference
Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot.
Great point! We should have troops calldown.. NOW WE'RE TALKING!
And a lot of you are just looking at PvT, what about PvZ and PvP?
PvZ KA will help defend vs mutas It may be an alternative to colosus against hydras. KA not good vs roaches, brood lords, ultras.. onyl good vs clumped lings and vs hydras. drop play is risky vs zerg because they get easy map cotnrol
PvP this would be interesting. obviuosly mirror matches should be held to a different measure of balance.. but if this results in less colosus battles, id be all for it
You are confusing what is good. Storm is good against Mutas and an alternative to Colossi vs Hydras. KA does not make storm better or worse vs these things. What KA does it make it so it removes any strategical positioning with your HT and army. You don't have to use anything to defend until you need to defend which removes a big element of play. The opponent can no longer force your hand into a specific position so he can abuse a hole it creates somewhere else since with KA there are no holes.
That in a nutshell is why KA was removed. It doesn't add options to the game, it removes them.
KA doesnt make the deathball stronger. Any templars sitting in your deathabll will already have enough energy anyways.
Protoss units are not very mobile, and they are very weak when not all together. Protoss is also the race that is most dependent on gas. It is too weakening to them to have 2 HT and a couple zealots sitting in EVERY base.
Drops are already really devastating. If your gates are on cooldown, you have no choice but to move your whole (or at least half) army do defend the drop.
You basically saying you want a invincible race. Cool
No, he is saying that Protoss defense sucks and that KA adds some needed defense. For example, Protoss is the only race that can actually have their buildings unpowered, as in they can have their buildings not die but still not be able to build anything. KA adds defense to Protoss bases late game.
Is adding in KA balanced? I cannot say, but it would not make Protoss invincible. It might make them OP, or it might make them more stable. It also might limit options if it forces Protoss to go Templar every game, but who knows? The game was different when it was taken away. There have been a lot of changes and it is difficult to tel what would happen if they re-introduced it. It's a moot point though since they definitely will not bring it back.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
I'm pretty sure it has been explicitly said that this IS one of the reasons it was removed. Blizzard said they didn't like the idea of basically warping in storms because it makes the HT like a one-time spell rather than a unit. They said this applied mostly to harass and also to big battles if i remember correctly...
I also like how a lot of people in favor of bringing KA back are arguing for it by saying that it's not that good. kind of ironic! haha
On November 05 2011 00:30 SupLilSon wrote: Wait, am I missing something from the OP? I really don't understand how those 2 games show anything about KA at all. First game is San vs Sc and second game is Oz vs MKP. So you are trying to analyze balance based off of 2 games with completely different players? You may have a point but the extreme lack of effort to provide any basis seriously hinders this argument. IIRC, even a large portion of Protoss players back then were convinced that KA was pretty damn broken.
All of the games from the old series involved KA just about. Game 9 of the new series is of the same players with heavy HT play but no KA. That's 6 games, plus a non KA game to show San and SC's skill is still about equal.
San is known for liking HT play, but the fact that he gets curbstomped when he's a whole gold base ahead (3 bases to 2) for 4 game minutes is mindblowing. I think that one game is a perfect example of why KA makes more sense than the route Blizz is trying to take.
One game shows that they are equal skill level? You must not watch GSL too much... Sc is a far superior player to San and IMO KA was the only reason San even took games from Sc. KA in conjunction with warpgate was a terrible function to have in the game. 6 supply of templar could wipe out 50+ supply of bio on a whim. And you would have games like the Sc vs San game where a Terran player would be astronomically ahead yet not be able to do anything because of the pure strength of KA.
On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote: The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference
Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot.
Great point! We should have troops calldown.. NOW WE'RE TALKING!
And a lot of you are just looking at PvT, what about PvZ and PvP?
PvZ KA will help defend vs mutas It may be an alternative to colosus against hydras. KA not good vs roaches, brood lords, ultras.. onyl good vs clumped lings and vs hydras. drop play is risky vs zerg because they get easy map cotnrol
PvP this would be interesting. obviuosly mirror matches should be held to a different measure of balance.. but if this results in less colosus battles, id be all for it
You are confusing what is good. Storm is good against Mutas and an alternative to Colossi vs Hydras. KA does not make storm better or worse vs these things. What KA does it make it so it removes any strategical positioning with your HT and army. You don't have to use anything to defend until you need to defend which removes a big element of play. The opponent can no longer force your hand into a specific position so he can abuse a hole it creates somewhere else since with KA there are no holes.
That in a nutshell is why KA was removed. It doesn't add options to the game, it removes them.
KA doesnt make the deathball stronger. Any templars sitting in your deathabll will already have enough energy anyways.
Protoss units are not very mobile, and they are very weak when not all together. Protoss is also the race that is most dependent on gas. It is too weakening to them to have 2 HT and a couple zealots sitting in EVERY base.
Drops are already really devastating. If your gates are on cooldown, you have no choice but to move your whole (or at least half) army do defend the drop.
Try practicing more. It sounds like that's more your problem rather than a lack of KA. One templar at each base can shut down drops and the warpgate mechanic means that you don't even need units waiting before hand. Increase the speed of your play and terran drop play will be less of a hindrance.
Zerg can expand all over the map at will. Their units are so fast and they have such good map control that it makes it safe.
Terran can fly over an expansion and defend it with a PF that will be up in a minute. Unless we want to go engage with our whole army, the expansion goes uncontested.
If protoss wants to expand, you just send a handfull of lings or a medivac full of marines to it and its gone?
Protoss can not expand as freely as the other races becuase it cant defend its bases when they are spread so far apart.
On November 05 2011 01:18 MarcL wrote: I would say the KA was OP and u cant compare storm with EMP just for the one reason u can kill units with a storm but u can get off 1 billion emps on the protoss army and no unit will die ...
If you EMP their entire army it will die pretty damn quick. Just look at any high level TvP.
On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote: The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference
Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot.
Great point! We should have troops calldown.. NOW WE'RE TALKING!
And a lot of you are just looking at PvT, what about PvZ and PvP?
PvZ KA will help defend vs mutas It may be an alternative to colosus against hydras. KA not good vs roaches, brood lords, ultras.. onyl good vs clumped lings and vs hydras. drop play is risky vs zerg because they get easy map cotnrol
PvP this would be interesting. obviuosly mirror matches should be held to a different measure of balance.. but if this results in less colosus battles, id be all for it
You are confusing what is good. Storm is good against Mutas and an alternative to Colossi vs Hydras. KA does not make storm better or worse vs these things. What KA does it make it so it removes any strategical positioning with your HT and army. You don't have to use anything to defend until you need to defend which removes a big element of play. The opponent can no longer force your hand into a specific position so he can abuse a hole it creates somewhere else since with KA there are no holes.
That in a nutshell is why KA was removed. It doesn't add options to the game, it removes them.
KA doesnt make the deathball stronger. Any templars sitting in your deathabll will already have enough energy anyways.
Protoss units are not very mobile, and they are very weak when not all together. Protoss is also the race that is most dependent on gas. It is too weakening to them to have 2 HT and a couple zealots sitting in EVERY base.
Drops are already really devastating. If your gates are on cooldown, you have no choice but to move your whole (or at least half) army do defend the drop.
Try practicing more. It sounds like that's more your problem rather than a lack of KA. One templar at each base can shut down drops and the warpgate mechanic means that you don't even need units waiting before hand. Increase the speed of your play and terran drop play will be less of a hindrance.
Are you serious? What league are you? who are you to tell me to "practice more"
Protoss cant afford to build 12 observers as a heads up for when drops are coming. Unless they want to reduce the cost of observers, we need KA as a means of dealing with drops and base trade scenarios.
On November 05 2011 00:30 SupLilSon wrote: Wait, am I missing something from the OP? I really don't understand how those 2 games show anything about KA at all. First game is San vs Sc and second game is Oz vs MKP. So you are trying to analyze balance based off of 2 games with completely different players? You may have a point but the extreme lack of effort to provide any basis seriously hinders this argument. IIRC, even a large portion of Protoss players back then were convinced that KA was pretty damn broken.
All of the games from the old series involved KA just about. Game 9 of the new series is of the same players with heavy HT play but no KA. That's 6 games, plus a non KA game to show San and SC's skill is still about equal.
San is known for liking HT play, but the fact that he gets curbstomped when he's a whole gold base ahead (3 bases to 2) for 4 game minutes is mindblowing. I think that one game is a perfect example of why KA makes more sense than the route Blizz is trying to take.
One game shows that they are equal skill level? You must not watch GSL too much... Sc is a far superior player to San and IMO KA was the only reason San even took games from Sc. KA in conjunction with warpgate was a terrible function to have in the game. 6 supply of templar could wipe out 50+ supply of bio on a whim. And you would have games like the Sc vs San game where a Terran player would be astronomically ahead yet not be able to do anything because of the pure strength of KA.
SC was not a far superior player to San then, and the only reason why he lost was because he missed a shit ton of EMPs and made bone headed mistakes throughout that entire series. People arguing that KA removal was proper really don't understand the game at all, because as a P, the only way to defend against 2+ Medivac drops without over comitting as P was through the usage of KA.
Since the removal of KA, PvT win percentage plummeted from 50% (Yes, at the time when KA was at it's height in popularity, Protoss was still only winning 50% of the time against Terran in tournament play) to a poor like mid to low 40s. Blizzard obviously made a mistake, and KA removal was obviously crippling to an entire tech tree that was based on KA.
Not to mention that nothing was given in return to Protoss except an Archon buff which really isn't even that good, since Marines eat through Archon shields like breakfast anyways, same with mass EMPs which has become extremely popular lately. Storm was balanced around the fact that Khydarian Amulet existed; if KA was to be removed, they need to revert Storm back to the old beta radius where it was way bigger and much more useful. Right now Storm is pretty much terrible against any decent Terran, and going Templar tech is suicide for the most part.
Right now if you have a hard to defend 3rd, Terran basically gets a free win without even having to do anything but harass/contain with drops and trade armies with Protoss effectively (which isn't hard to do as long as you fight in an open area where you can surround/get a good concave). All the talk about Terran having a weak late game (of which there were plenty of top pros whining about) was total nonsense after watching guys like Puma and MVP absolutely destroy Archon/Templar/Colossus armies with MMMGViking and solid EMPs.
In short, KA removal was bad, especially when Protoss was given 0 compensation for it. Protoss has no way to secure 3rds without dying if the 3rd is slightly too far away from the natural. Warp-ins are not strong enough to defend against Rax drops. If you watch any recent mid to late game TvP, it favors Terran heavily now with their ability to just harass literally for free and do massive damage. That was a huge problem that all Protoss players were worried about, and clearly that is what is what causing Protoss to lose so much (other than 1-1-1 which was just silly). Couple that with the fact that Terran players actually learn to split and fight only when they can get a good concave, plus much better Ghost usage, = alot of Protoss players getting creamed left and right.
On November 05 2011 01:18 MarcL wrote: I would say the KA was OP and u cant compare storm with EMP just for the one reason u can kill units with a storm but u can get off 1 billion emps on the protoss army and no unit will die ...
If you EMP their entire army it will die pretty damn quick. Just look at any high level TvP.
2 ghosts by themselves will never kill 50+ supply of protoss deathball. 2 HT w/ KA will kill 50+ supply of MMM. That is the point he is making. KA was a "EASY" button. Protoss could be down 200-70 food and still be holding off subsequent attacks just purely by defending a ramp with KA HT.
On November 05 2011 00:30 SupLilSon wrote: Wait, am I missing something from the OP? I really don't understand how those 2 games show anything about KA at all. First game is San vs Sc and second game is Oz vs MKP. So you are trying to analyze balance based off of 2 games with completely different players? You may have a point but the extreme lack of effort to provide any basis seriously hinders this argument. IIRC, even a large portion of Protoss players back then were convinced that KA was pretty damn broken.
All of the games from the old series involved KA just about. Game 9 of the new series is of the same players with heavy HT play but no KA. That's 6 games, plus a non KA game to show San and SC's skill is still about equal.
San is known for liking HT play, but the fact that he gets curbstomped when he's a whole gold base ahead (3 bases to 2) for 4 game minutes is mindblowing. I think that one game is a perfect example of why KA makes more sense than the route Blizz is trying to take.
One game shows that they are equal skill level? You must not watch GSL too much... Sc is a far superior player to San and IMO KA was the only reason San even took games from Sc. KA in conjunction with warpgate was a terrible function to have in the game. 6 supply of templar could wipe out 50+ supply of bio on a whim. And you would have games like the Sc vs San game where a Terran player would be astronomically ahead yet not be able to do anything because of the pure strength of KA.
SC was not a far superior player to San then, and the only reason why he lost was because he missed a shit ton of EMPs and made bone headed mistakes throughout that entire series. People arguing that KA removal was proper really don't understand the game at all, because as a P, the only way to defend against 2+ Medivac drops without over comitting as P was through the usage of KA.
Since the removal of KA, PvT win percentage plummeted from 50% (Yes, at the time when KA was at it's height in popularity, Protoss was still only winning 50% of the time against Terran in tournament play) to a poor like mid to low 40s. Blizzard obviously made a mistake, and KA removal was obviously crippling to an entire tech tree that was based on KA.
Not to mention that nothing was given in return to Protoss except an Archon buff which really isn't even that good, since Marines eat through Archon shields like breakfast anyways, same with mass EMPs which has become extremely popular lately. Storm was balanced around the fact that Khydarian Amulet existed; if KA was to be removed, they need to revert Storm back to the old beta radius where it was way bigger and much more useful. Right now Storm is pretty much terrible against any decent Terran, and going Templar tech is suicide for the most part.
Right now if you have a hard to defend 3rd, Terran basically gets a free win without even having to do anything but harass/contain with drops and trade armies with Protoss effectively (which isn't hard to do as long as you fight in an open area where you can surround/get a good concave). All the talk about Terran having a weak late game (of which there were plenty of top pros whining about) was total nonsense after watching guys like Puma and MVP absolutely destroy Archon/Templar/Colossus armies with MMMGViking and solid EMPs.
In short, KA removal was bad, especially when Protoss was given 0 compensation for it. Protoss has no way to secure 3rds without dying if the 3rd is slightly too far away from the natural. Warp-ins are not strong enough to defend against Rax drops. If you watch any recent mid to late game TvP, it favors Terran heavily now with their ability to just harass literally for free and do massive damage. That was a huge problem that all Protoss players were worried about, and clearly that is what is what causing Protoss to lose so much (other than 1-1-1 which was just silly).
Ok, w.e don't believe Jinro, a player who probably has 100% more experience and knowledge with both those players... I'm not gonna argue who is better and who is not.
On November 05 2011 01:18 MarcL wrote: I would say the KA was OP and u cant compare storm with EMP just for the one reason u can kill units with a storm but u can get off 1 billion emps on the protoss army and no unit will die ...
If you EMP their entire army it will die pretty damn quick. Just look at any high level TvP.
2 ghosts by themselves will never kill 50+ supply of protoss deathball. 2 HT w/ KA will kill 50+ supply of MMM. That is the point he is making. KA was a "EASY" button. Protoss could be down 200-70 food and still be holding off subsequent attacks just purely by defending a ramp with KA HT.
Your example seems fair (though I would argue that a PF is capable of the same),
How about reducing the radius of KA storms? I would be fine with that.
Terrans always scream that we should spread our untis.. how about you spread yours?
On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote: The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference
Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot.
Great point! We should have troops calldown.. NOW WE'RE TALKING!
And a lot of you are just looking at PvT, what about PvZ and PvP?
PvZ KA will help defend vs mutas It may be an alternative to colosus against hydras. KA not good vs roaches, brood lords, ultras.. onyl good vs clumped lings and vs hydras. drop play is risky vs zerg because they get easy map cotnrol
PvP this would be interesting. obviuosly mirror matches should be held to a different measure of balance.. but if this results in less colosus battles, id be all for it
You are confusing what is good. Storm is good against Mutas and an alternative to Colossi vs Hydras. KA does not make storm better or worse vs these things. What KA does it make it so it removes any strategical positioning with your HT and army. You don't have to use anything to defend until you need to defend which removes a big element of play. The opponent can no longer force your hand into a specific position so he can abuse a hole it creates somewhere else since with KA there are no holes.
That in a nutshell is why KA was removed. It doesn't add options to the game, it removes them.
KA doesnt make the deathball stronger. Any templars sitting in your deathabll will already have enough energy anyways.
Protoss units are not very mobile, and they are very weak when not all together. Protoss is also the race that is most dependent on gas. It is too weakening to them to have 2 HT and a couple zealots sitting in EVERY base.
Drops are already really devastating. If your gates are on cooldown, you have no choice but to move your whole (or at least half) army do defend the drop.
Try practicing more. It sounds like that's more your problem rather than a lack of KA. One templar at each base can shut down drops and the warpgate mechanic means that you don't even need units waiting before hand. Increase the speed of your play and terran drop play will be less of a hindrance.
Are you serious? What league are you? who are you to tell me to "practice more"
Protoss cant afford to build 12 observers as a heads up for when drops are coming. Unless they want to reduce the cost of observers, we need KA as a means of dealing with drops and base trade scenarios.
My league is irrelevant. I'm a diamond so yea, youd beat me 1v1. But there are GM players that would tell you the same thing. All I'm saying is the problems you so adamantly argue are inherent to protoss are in fact fixable. Watch some protoss who are better than you (because believe me you are nowhere near good, being in masters doesn't mean shit to a pro), they deal with drops and can expand just as aggressively as terran and zerg. You really just sound whiny.
On November 05 2011 01:18 MarcL wrote: I would say the KA was OP and u cant compare storm with EMP just for the one reason u can kill units with a storm but u can get off 1 billion emps on the protoss army and no unit will die ...
If you EMP their entire army it will die pretty damn quick. Just look at any high level TvP.
2 ghosts by themselves will never kill 50+ supply of protoss deathball. 2 HT w/ KA will kill 50+ supply of MMM. That is the point he is making. KA was a "EASY" button. Protoss could be down 200-70 food and still be holding off subsequent attacks just purely by defending a ramp with KA HT.
Your example seems fair (though I would argue that a PF is capable of the same),
How about reducing the radius of KA storms? I would be fine with that.
Terrans always scream that we should spread our untis.. how about you spread yours?
PF is only hard to deal with for toss if you A-move at it. If you kill the repairing SCV, it goes down in under 5 seconds. Its gotten to a point where most pro Terrans don't even get PF because its so useless against someone who micros.
On November 05 2011 00:30 SupLilSon wrote: Wait, am I missing something from the OP? I really don't understand how those 2 games show anything about KA at all. First game is San vs Sc and second game is Oz vs MKP. So you are trying to analyze balance based off of 2 games with completely different players? You may have a point but the extreme lack of effort to provide any basis seriously hinders this argument. IIRC, even a large portion of Protoss players back then were convinced that KA was pretty damn broken.
All of the games from the old series involved KA just about. Game 9 of the new series is of the same players with heavy HT play but no KA. That's 6 games, plus a non KA game to show San and SC's skill is still about equal.
San is known for liking HT play, but the fact that he gets curbstomped when he's a whole gold base ahead (3 bases to 2) for 4 game minutes is mindblowing. I think that one game is a perfect example of why KA makes more sense than the route Blizz is trying to take.
One game shows that they are equal skill level? You must not watch GSL too much... Sc is a far superior player to San and IMO KA was the only reason San even took games from Sc. KA in conjunction with warpgate was a terrible function to have in the game. 6 supply of templar could wipe out 50+ supply of bio on a whim. And you would have games like the Sc vs San game where a Terran player would be astronomically ahead yet not be able to do anything because of the pure strength of KA.
SC was not a far superior player to San then, and the only reason why he lost was because he missed a shit ton of EMPs and made bone headed mistakes throughout that entire series. People arguing that KA removal was proper really don't understand the game at all, because as a P, the only way to defend against 2+ Medivac drops without over comitting as P was through the usage of KA.
Since the removal of KA, PvT win percentage plummeted from 50% (Yes, at the time when KA was at it's height in popularity, Protoss was still only winning 50% of the time against Terran in tournament play) to a poor like mid to low 40s. Blizzard obviously made a mistake, and KA removal was obviously crippling to an entire tech tree that was based on KA.
Not to mention that nothing was given in return to Protoss except an Archon buff which really isn't even that good, since Marines eat through Archon shields like breakfast anyways, same with mass EMPs which has become extremely popular lately. Storm was balanced around the fact that Khydarian Amulet existed; if KA was to be removed, they need to revert Storm back to the old beta radius where it was way bigger and much more useful. Right now Storm is pretty much terrible against any decent Terran, and going Templar tech is suicide for the most part.
Right now if you have a hard to defend 3rd, Terran basically gets a free win without even having to do anything but harass/contain with drops and trade armies with Protoss effectively (which isn't hard to do as long as you fight in an open area where you can surround/get a good concave). All the talk about Terran having a weak late game (of which there were plenty of top pros whining about) was total nonsense after watching guys like Puma and MVP absolutely destroy Archon/Templar/Colossus armies with MMMGViking and solid EMPs.
In short, KA removal was bad, especially when Protoss was given 0 compensation for it. Protoss has no way to secure 3rds without dying if the 3rd is slightly too far away from the natural. Warp-ins are not strong enough to defend against Rax drops. If you watch any recent mid to late game TvP, it favors Terran heavily now with their ability to just harass literally for free and do massive damage. That was a huge problem that all Protoss players were worried about, and clearly that is what is what causing Protoss to lose so much (other than 1-1-1 which was just silly).
Ok, w.e don't believe Jinro, a player who probably has 100% more experience and knowledge with both those players... I'm not gonna argue who is better and who is not.
You realize that Jinro and Tyler actually argued against the removal of KA when it was being removed right? They wanted alternatives rather than removals. In fact, alot of pro Terran players stated that removal of KA was NOT the way to balance the game. Right now, you see Protoss players unable to secure their 3rd against Terran players in nearly every single high level game, unless it is a map where the 3rd is easy to get to. That reason is because there is NO more KA. Without it, you get utterly creamed by octodrops that will constantly happen, as the Terran player slowly pulls ahead by continuously expanding and just massing cheap effective infantry that can trade armies with you all day.
And at the time, results wise BOTH San and SC were equals. You aren't going to win that argument, period.
On November 05 2011 01:18 MarcL wrote: I would say the KA was OP and u cant compare storm with EMP just for the one reason u can kill units with a storm but u can get off 1 billion emps on the protoss army and no unit will die ...
If you EMP their entire army it will die pretty damn quick. Just look at any high level TvP.
2 ghosts by themselves will never kill 50+ supply of protoss deathball. 2 HT w/ KA will kill 50+ supply of MMM. That is the point he is making. KA was a "EASY" button. Protoss could be down 200-70 food and still be holding off subsequent attacks just purely by defending a ramp with KA HT.
Your example seems fair (though I would argue that a PF is capable of the same),
How about reducing the radius of KA storms? I would be fine with that.
Terrans always scream that we should spread our untis.. how about you spread yours?
The best terran are spreading their units against hts with storm. Example: watch around 26min
On November 05 2011 00:37 RemrafGrez wrote: [quote]
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference
Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot.
Great point! We should have troops calldown.. NOW WE'RE TALKING!
And a lot of you are just looking at PvT, what about PvZ and PvP?
PvZ KA will help defend vs mutas It may be an alternative to colosus against hydras. KA not good vs roaches, brood lords, ultras.. onyl good vs clumped lings and vs hydras. drop play is risky vs zerg because they get easy map cotnrol
PvP this would be interesting. obviuosly mirror matches should be held to a different measure of balance.. but if this results in less colosus battles, id be all for it
You are confusing what is good. Storm is good against Mutas and an alternative to Colossi vs Hydras. KA does not make storm better or worse vs these things. What KA does it make it so it removes any strategical positioning with your HT and army. You don't have to use anything to defend until you need to defend which removes a big element of play. The opponent can no longer force your hand into a specific position so he can abuse a hole it creates somewhere else since with KA there are no holes.
That in a nutshell is why KA was removed. It doesn't add options to the game, it removes them.
KA doesnt make the deathball stronger. Any templars sitting in your deathabll will already have enough energy anyways.
Protoss units are not very mobile, and they are very weak when not all together. Protoss is also the race that is most dependent on gas. It is too weakening to them to have 2 HT and a couple zealots sitting in EVERY base.
Drops are already really devastating. If your gates are on cooldown, you have no choice but to move your whole (or at least half) army do defend the drop.
Try practicing more. It sounds like that's more your problem rather than a lack of KA. One templar at each base can shut down drops and the warpgate mechanic means that you don't even need units waiting before hand. Increase the speed of your play and terran drop play will be less of a hindrance.
Are you serious? What league are you? who are you to tell me to "practice more"
Protoss cant afford to build 12 observers as a heads up for when drops are coming. Unless they want to reduce the cost of observers, we need KA as a means of dealing with drops and base trade scenarios.
My league is irrelevant. I'm a diamond so yea, youd beat me 1v1. But there are GM players that would tell you the same thing. All I'm saying is the problems you so adamantly argue are inherent to protoss are in fact fixable. Watch some protoss who are better than you (because believe me you are nowhere near good, being in masters doesn't mean shit to a pro), they deal with drops and can expand just as aggressively as terran and zerg. You really just sound whiny.
I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw a four base Protoss. It seems that Protoss have been going for 2 and 3 base timings because defending a fourth base and your main is nigh impossible. Protoss can definitely not expand as aggressively as Terran and Zerg, and they definitely deal with drops much more poorly. When they have blink, it gets a little better, but blink is no mutalisk.
A couple of reasons that I feel KA is good for the game:
1) HT are more exciting than colossi for both players. I would much rather watch an intense micro-battle between ghosts and HTs than watch some colossi and vikings a-move into each other.
2) I feel that the biggest problem with PvT design-wise is that bio armies are too strong and too adaptable for how mobile they are. If KA was still in the game, pure bio armies would just get rolled, rather than just having to add some ghosts and keep on going MMM. I really really really want to see HT armies just win straight up fights against bio, so that terrans can then have a choice between bio (extremely mobile but loses straight-up engagement) and mech (powerful but immobile). TvT and TvZ are arguably the best 2 matchups because of that choice, but bio is >>>>> mech in PvT. The reason is that you can't just throw a few ghosts or vikings into your bio-ball to deal with tanks or banelings. You have to completely change your army composition.
However, I think KA warp-ins are arguably too strong. What I would like to see is the option to either 1) warp in a templar with 50 energy (same cost/cooldown as now) 2) warp in a templar with 75 energy (make it cost more and have a longer cooldown)
On November 05 2011 01:53 Kovaz wrote: A couple of reasons that I feel KA is good for the game:
1) HT are more exciting than colossi for both players. I would much rather watch an intense micro-battle between ghosts and HTs than watch some colossi and vikings a-move into each other.
2) I feel that the biggest problem with PvT design-wise is that bio armies are too strong and too adaptable for how mobile they are. If KA was still in the game, pure bio armies would just get rolled, rather than just having to add some ghosts and keep on going MMM. I really really really want to see HT armies just win straight up fights against bio, so that terrans can then have a choice between bio (extremely mobile but loses straight-up engagement) and mech (powerful but immobile). TvT and TvZ are arguably the best 2 matchups because of that choice, but bio is >>>>> mech in PvT. The reason is that you can't just throw a few ghosts or vikings into your bio-ball to deal with tanks or banelings. You have to completely change your army composition.
However, I think KA warp-ins are arguably too strong. What I would like to see is the option to either 1) warp in a templar with 50 energy (same cost/cooldown as now) 2) warp in a templar with 75 energy (make it cost more and have a longer cooldown)
KA amulet was never overpowered. Period. Statistics prove that fact. Protoss never was above Terran by more than 2% in tournament play, and the second it was removed, has never come close to going back to 50% except during the month of June 2011 which is more of a statistical anomaly more than anything. Anyone coming in here trying to state otherwise is carrying some serious bias. All KA merely did was not allow Terran to constantly drop/swarm the Protoss player to death, and forced him to actually be cost effective in his trades rather than just suicide units constantly at the Protoss player (which is what exactly is occurring right now).
I did forget that Protoss did indeed have a strong hold over Terran in the month of March, but that was mostly due to the fact that Protoss players were beginning to switch to HT tech because it was a much stronger way of defending your bases and countering heavy bio pressure/harass than Colossus tech. Immediately once it was removed though, Protoss went straight into the gutter. I would call that a knee jerk nerf because of all the complaining.
On November 05 2011 01:53 Kovaz wrote: A couple of reasons that I feel KA is good for the game:
1) HT are more exciting than colossi for both players. I would much rather watch an intense micro-battle between ghosts and HTs than watch some colossi and vikings a-move into each other.
2) I feel that the biggest problem with PvT design-wise is that bio armies are too strong and too adaptable for how mobile they are. If KA was still in the game, pure bio armies would just get rolled, rather than just having to add some ghosts and keep on going MMM. I really really really want to see HT armies just win straight up fights against bio, so that terrans can then have a choice between bio (extremely mobile but loses straight-up engagement) and mech (powerful but immobile). TvT and TvZ are arguably the best 2 matchups because of that choice, but bio is >>>>> mech in PvT. The reason is that you can't just throw a few ghosts or vikings into your bio-ball to deal with tanks or banelings. You have to completely change your army composition.
However, I think KA warp-ins are arguably too strong. What I would like to see is the option to either 1) warp in a templar with 50 energy (same cost/cooldown as now) 2) warp in a templar with 75 energy (make it cost more and have a longer cooldown)
KA amulet was never overpowered. Period. Statistics prove that fact. Protoss never was above Terran by more than 2% in tournament play, and the second it was removed, has never come close to going back to 50% except during the month of June 2011 which is more of a statistical anomaly more than anything. Anyone coming in here trying to state otherwise is carrying some serious bias. All KA merely did was not allow Terran to constantly drop/swarm the Protoss player to death, and forced him to actually be cost effective in his trades rather than just suicide units constantly at the Protoss player (which is what exactly is occurring right now).
As much as I want it back in the game too, statistics don't prove that. Whether or not Protoss was doing well has nothing to do with how OP KA is because people were not playing optimally back then, and because there have been other changes to the game since then. The fact that since then ghosts have become much more popular is an example of a change in the way Terrans play that might mean EMP was always OP, but underused. You cannot prove KA is OP, and since it is gone you cannot prove it is not OP either.
On November 05 2011 01:53 Kovaz wrote: A couple of reasons that I feel KA is good for the game:
1) HT are more exciting than colossi for both players. I would much rather watch an intense micro-battle between ghosts and HTs than watch some colossi and vikings a-move into each other.
2) I feel that the biggest problem with PvT design-wise is that bio armies are too strong and too adaptable for how mobile they are. If KA was still in the game, pure bio armies would just get rolled, rather than just having to add some ghosts and keep on going MMM. I really really really want to see HT armies just win straight up fights against bio, so that terrans can then have a choice between bio (extremely mobile but loses straight-up engagement) and mech (powerful but immobile). TvT and TvZ are arguably the best 2 matchups because of that choice, but bio is >>>>> mech in PvT. The reason is that you can't just throw a few ghosts or vikings into your bio-ball to deal with tanks or banelings. You have to completely change your army composition.
However, I think KA warp-ins are arguably too strong. What I would like to see is the option to either 1) warp in a templar with 50 energy (same cost/cooldown as now) 2) warp in a templar with 75 energy (make it cost more and have a longer cooldown)
KA amulet was never overpowered. Period. Statistics prove that fact. Protoss never was above Terran by more than 2% in tournament play, and the second it was removed, has never come close to going back to 50% except during the month of June 2011 which is more of a statistical anomaly more than anything. Anyone coming in here trying to state otherwise is carrying some serious bias. All KA merely did was not allow Terran to constantly drop/swarm the Protoss player to death, and forced him to actually be cost effective in his trades rather than just suicide units constantly at the Protoss player (which is what exactly is occurring right now).
As much as I want it back in the game too, statistics don't prove that. Whether or not Protoss was doing well has nothing to do with how OP KA is because people were not playing optimally back then, and because there have been other changes to the game since then. The fact that since then ghosts have become much more popular is an example of a change in the way Terrans play that might mean EMP was always OP, but underused. You cannot prove KA is OP, and since it is gone you cannot prove it is not OP either.
So all that you stated was that no one can prove anything was/is OP or balanced, and as such that the removal of KA was bad. I can prove to you with real hard statistics that the removal of KA was bad.
Look at the month of March 2011. Protoss is winning by ALOT right? Why? Because KA usage was starting to see alot of play. Terran players didn't adjust to playing against it yet, and had yet to ever face such heavy usage of HT. What happens? Rather than Terran players actually adjusting their play to a new development in the metagame, they simply CRY (which is the truth, look at the posts on TL of high level Terran players during those months) rather than manning up and trying to figure out how to counter heavy HT usage.
What happens? KA is removed immediately because Protoss is actually beating Terran in tournaments now (when before they were getting smashed by almost 60% almost every month except the month of April). The whole singular reason that it was removed was because of a knee jerk reaction to a huge spike in Protoss victories that had never occured before. The second KA is removed, Terran win percentage immediately goes up, and continues to go up because they figure out how to utilize Ghosts better. 3 months in tournament play since March 2011 have shown Terran players absolutely SMASHING Protoss players. This is not some coincidence; you do not just go from a 58% to 40% swing within a matter of months. KA was CRUCIAL to defending your 3rd and 4th without having to overcommit an army or resources on warp-ins. The removal of it was a boneheaded decision that was fueled by a bunch of Terran whining because Protoss was actually for once winning (look at the graphs, it supports my arguments).
KA was imbalanced, that's why it was removed. KA with warp gates allowed a HT to be warped almost anywhere on the map with instant sci storm. In contrast, ghosts take 45 second to train, then they walk to where they need to go so reinforcing a battle in the middle of the map or getting ghosts to counter Templar was impossible.
If one race has an ability to do something, that the other race is simply incapable of dealing with regardless of skill, That's the definition of imbalanced. Regardless of how skilled a player is, it is not possible to train a ghost, and transport that ghost to the battle field in time to counter a warped in HT with KA. Its simple math. That's why the removal was necessary - and a good change.
Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT?
This is ridiculous. "Wildly game changing patches?" There have been 0 wild game changing patches. The patches have been small changes that have improved the game, nothing wild has occurred.
The game is very balanced but as Blizzard has stated, Terran has an edge against Protoss in very high level play in Korea. And Blizzard is addressing this issue with the upcoming ghost nurf, the small upgrade cost changes among other changes recently.
if your going to create a thread regarding balance issues, its wise to make your assertions based on plenty of examples in a more thorough way than this post does. You never addressed any of the issues as to why KA was removed in the first place or attempted to show why that was a mistake. You just assert it was a mistake because Protoss is having trouble vs Terran now.
Its entirely possible, and in my judgement correct, to say that KA removal was necessary and a good change but Protoss does seem to have other issues that need to be looked into.
On November 05 2011 01:53 Kovaz wrote: A couple of reasons that I feel KA is good for the game:
1) HT are more exciting than colossi for both players. I would much rather watch an intense micro-battle between ghosts and HTs than watch some colossi and vikings a-move into each other.
2) I feel that the biggest problem with PvT design-wise is that bio armies are too strong and too adaptable for how mobile they are. If KA was still in the game, pure bio armies would just get rolled, rather than just having to add some ghosts and keep on going MMM. I really really really want to see HT armies just win straight up fights against bio, so that terrans can then have a choice between bio (extremely mobile but loses straight-up engagement) and mech (powerful but immobile). TvT and TvZ are arguably the best 2 matchups because of that choice, but bio is >>>>> mech in PvT. The reason is that you can't just throw a few ghosts or vikings into your bio-ball to deal with tanks or banelings. You have to completely change your army composition.
However, I think KA warp-ins are arguably too strong. What I would like to see is the option to either 1) warp in a templar with 50 energy (same cost/cooldown as now) 2) warp in a templar with 75 energy (make it cost more and have a longer cooldown)
KA amulet was never overpowered. Period. Statistics prove that fact. Protoss never was above Terran by more than 2% in tournament play, and the second it was removed, has never come close to going back to 50% except during the month of June 2011 which is more of a statistical anomaly more than anything. Anyone coming in here trying to state otherwise is carrying some serious bias. All KA merely did was not allow Terran to constantly drop/swarm the Protoss player to death, and forced him to actually be cost effective in his trades rather than just suicide units constantly at the Protoss player (which is what exactly is occurring right now).
As much as I want it back in the game too, statistics don't prove that. Whether or not Protoss was doing well has nothing to do with how OP KA is because people were not playing optimally back then, and because there have been other changes to the game since then. The fact that since then ghosts have become much more popular is an example of a change in the way Terrans play that might mean EMP was always OP, but underused. You cannot prove KA is OP, and since it is gone you cannot prove it is not OP either.
So all that you stated was that no one can prove anything was/is OP or balanced, and as such that the removal of KA was bad. I can prove to you with real hard statistics that the removal of KA was bad.
Look at the month of March 2011. Protoss is winning by ALOT right? Why? Because KA usage was starting to see alot of play. Terran players didn't adjust to playing against it yet, and had yet to ever face such heavy usage of HT. What happens? Rather than Terran players actually adjusting their play to a new development in the metagame, they simply CRY (which is the truth, look at the posts on TL of high level Terran players during those months) rather than manning up and trying to figure out how to counter heavy HT usage.
What happens? KA is removed immediately because Protoss is actually beating Terran in tournaments now (when before they were getting smashed by almost 60% almost every month except the month of April). The whole singular reason that it was removed was because of a knee jerk reaction to a huge spike in Protoss victories that had never occured before. The second KA is removed, Terran win percentage immediately goes up, and continues to go up because they figure out how to utilize Ghosts better. 3 months in tournament play since March 2011 have shown Terran players absolutely SMASHING Protoss players. This is not some coincidence; you do not just go from a 58% to 40% swing within a matter of months. KA was CRUCIAL to defending your 3rd and 4th without having to overcommit an army or resources on warp-ins. The removal of it was a boneheaded decision that was fueled by a bunch of Terran whining because Protoss was actually for once winning (look at the graphs, it supports my arguments).
All you have proved is that Protoss strategy relied heavily on KA, and with its removal Protoss strategy was worse. This does not prove that the removal of KA was bad. Look, in general, I agree with your point and the idea that KA is beneficial for expanding more and protecting more bases. But I am not a pro, and I do not understand all the intricacies at play, so I cannot say if it was or was not OP, and I don't think you can as well. I believe that post KA change I have heard Protoss pros like Tyler and Incontrol state that KA removal was a good thing. At least I have heard them say that at some point. I don't know if they still feel that way, or even if they are right, but you cannot prove something was necessary or not OP when strategies change and when people were playing worse than they are now.
The fact that Protoss strategy was relying on KA does not mean that its removal was bad for the game. You have no causal link there.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that is a slower method and gives your opponent reaction time whilst if you just unload it's faster and gives less reaction time.
On November 05 2011 02:21 mlspmatt wrote: KA was imbalanced, that's why it was removed. KA with warp gates allowed a HT to be warped almost anywhere on the map with instant sci storm. In contrast, ghosts take 45 second to train, then they walk to where they need to go so reinforcing a battle in the middle of the map or getting ghosts to counter Templar was impossible.
If one race has an ability to do something, that the other race is simply incapable of dealing with regardless of skill, That's the definition of imbalanced. Regardless of how skilled a player is, it is not possible to train a ghost, and transport that ghost to the battle field in time to counter a warped in HT with KA. Its simple math. That's why the removal was necessary - and a good change.
This is also poor logic. You are taking one unit as a counter to HT and then saying that because that unit does not work as well as the other unit, then HT must be OP. That is not the case. Perhaps bio play is not the optimal strategy against high templar play. Perhaps mech play in TvP, although harder to pull off, might be the optimal strategy, in which case it would be difficult to storm sieged tanks with vikings protecting form warp prism high templar.
I am getting a little annoyed here with everyone trying to prove it was balanced or imbalanced. You cannot prove that. You can't. Seeing as the races are so different, with so many different strengths and weaknesses, proving balance is ridiculously difficult.
Instead of talking about whether it was balanced or not, since I am sure there is a way to keep it in the game and make it balanced, why don't we discuss whether or not it was an interesting mechanic? Someone earlier mentioned that it was boring and less skillful to warp in instant damage like the high templar is. One possible result of KA is that Zergling run bys would be much more difficult to achieve since storm decimates zerglings. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?
Personally, I thought KA was more likely to allow Protoss to get a 4th or 5th base, and I like longer macro games so this appealed to me. What are some other negatives and positives of the mechanic that have nothing to do with balance?
On November 05 2011 01:18 MarcL wrote: I would say the KA was OP and u cant compare storm with EMP just for the one reason u can kill units with a storm but u can get off 1 billion emps on the protoss army and no unit will die ...
If you EMP their entire army it will die pretty damn quick. Just look at any high level TvP.
2 ghosts by themselves will never kill 50+ supply of protoss deathball. 2 HT w/ KA will kill 50+ supply of MMM. That is the point he is making. KA was a "EASY" button. Protoss could be down 200-70 food and still be holding off subsequent attacks just purely by defending a ramp with KA HT.
Only if you're bad. A few storms shouldn't kill anything if you can micro at all. The problem is when they have so many storms that they blanket storms your army with and you can't escape from it.
I don't think they should have the KA to be honest. It was too strong and had too many uses. If anything to help Protoss, just nerf EMP.
On November 05 2011 01:53 Kovaz wrote: A couple of reasons that I feel KA is good for the game:
1) HT are more exciting than colossi for both players. I would much rather watch an intense micro-battle between ghosts and HTs than watch some colossi and vikings a-move into each other.
2) I feel that the biggest problem with PvT design-wise is that bio armies are too strong and too adaptable for how mobile they are. If KA was still in the game, pure bio armies would just get rolled, rather than just having to add some ghosts and keep on going MMM. I really really really want to see HT armies just win straight up fights against bio, so that terrans can then have a choice between bio (extremely mobile but loses straight-up engagement) and mech (powerful but immobile). TvT and TvZ are arguably the best 2 matchups because of that choice, but bio is >>>>> mech in PvT. The reason is that you can't just throw a few ghosts or vikings into your bio-ball to deal with tanks or banelings. You have to completely change your army composition.
However, I think KA warp-ins are arguably too strong. What I would like to see is the option to either 1) warp in a templar with 50 energy (same cost/cooldown as now) 2) warp in a templar with 75 energy (make it cost more and have a longer cooldown)
KA amulet was never overpowered. Period. Statistics prove that fact. Protoss never was above Terran by more than 2% in tournament play, and the second it was removed, has never come close to going back to 50% except during the month of June 2011 which is more of a statistical anomaly more than anything. Anyone coming in here trying to state otherwise is carrying some serious bias. All KA merely did was not allow Terran to constantly drop/swarm the Protoss player to death, and forced him to actually be cost effective in his trades rather than just suicide units constantly at the Protoss player (which is what exactly is occurring right now).
As much as I want it back in the game too, statistics don't prove that. Whether or not Protoss was doing well has nothing to do with how OP KA is because people were not playing optimally back then, and because there have been other changes to the game since then. The fact that since then ghosts have become much more popular is an example of a change in the way Terrans play that might mean EMP was always OP, but underused. You cannot prove KA is OP, and since it is gone you cannot prove it is not OP either.
So all that you stated was that no one can prove anything was/is OP or balanced, and as such that the removal of KA was bad. I can prove to you with real hard statistics that the removal of KA was bad. KA lead to more dynamic play, and heavy macro based play, and 0 death ball situations. How that is bad for the game, I'll never know. Even if it was "slightly" OP, the positives outweigh the negatives. Simply return EMP to the old EMP radius to counter KA (which was fucking gigantic) and you have a balanced game IMO.
Look at the month of March 2011. Protoss is winning by ALOT right? Why? Because KA usage was starting to see alot of play. Terran players didn't adjust to playing against it yet, and had yet to ever face such heavy usage of HT. What happens? Rather than Terran players actually adjusting their play to a new development in the metagame, they simply CRY (which is the truth, look at the posts on TL of high level Terran players during those months) rather than manning up and trying to figure out how to counter heavy HT usage.
What happens? KA is removed immediately because Protoss is actually beating Terran in tournaments now (when before they were getting smashed by almost 60% almost every month except the month of April). The whole singular reason that it was removed was because of a knee jerk reaction to a huge spike in Protoss victories that had never occured before. The second KA is removed, Terran win percentage immediately goes up, and continues to go up because they figure out how to utilize Ghosts better. 3 months in tournament play since March 2011 have shown Terran players absolutely SMASHING Protoss players. This is not some coincidence; you do not just go from a 58% to 40% swing within a matter of months. KA was CRUCIAL to defending your 3rd and 4th without having to overcommit an army or resources on warp-ins. The removal of it was a boneheaded decision that was fueled by a bunch of Terran whining because Protoss was actually for once winning (look at the graphs, it supports my arguments).
All you have proved is that Protoss strategy relied heavily on KA, and with its removal Protoss strategy was worse. This does not prove that the removal of KA was bad. Look, in general, I agree with your point and the idea that KA is beneficial for expanding more and protecting more bases. But I am not a pro, and I do not understand all the intricacies at play, so I cannot say if it was or was not OP, and I don't think you can as well. I believe that post KA change I have heard Protoss pros like Tyler and Incontrol state that KA removal was a good thing. At least I have heard them say that at some point. I don't know if they still feel that way, or even if they are right, but you cannot prove something was necessary or not OP when strategies change and when people were playing worse than they are now.
The fact that Protoss strategy was relying on KA does not mean that its removal was bad for the game. You have no causal link there.
The removal of KA was bad for the game; it has lead to a total domination of Terran over Protoss by 60% or more in tournament play in certain months. If you think that isn't bad for the game, I don't know what to tell you.
On November 05 2011 02:21 mlspmatt wrote: KA was imbalanced, that's why it was removed. KA with warp gates allowed a HT to be warped almost anywhere on the map with instant sci storm. In contrast, ghosts take 45 second to train, then they walk to where they need to go so reinforcing a battle in the middle of the map or getting ghosts to counter Templar was impossible.
If one race has an ability to do something, that the other race is simply incapable of dealing with regardless of skill, That's the definition of imbalanced. Regardless of how skilled a player is, it is not possible to train a ghost, and transport that ghost to the battle field in time to counter a warped in HT with KA. Its simple math. That's why the removal was necessary - and a good change.
Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT?
This is ridiculous. "Wildly game changing patches?" There have been 0 wild game changing patches. The patches have been small changes that have improved the game, nothing wild has occurred.
The game is very balanced but as Blizzard has stated, Terran has an edge against Protoss in very high level play in Korea. And Blizzard is addressing this issue with the upcoming ghost nurf, the small upgrade cost changes among other changes recently.
if your going to create a thread regarding balance issues, its wise to make your assertions based on plenty of examples in a more thorough way than this post does. You never addressed any of the issues as to why KA was removed in the first place or attempted to show why that was a mistake. You just assert it was a mistake because Protoss is having trouble vs Terran now.
Its entirely possible, and in my judgement correct, to say that KA removal was necessary and a good change but Protoss does seem to have other issues that need to be looked into.
1) Terran has a significant "edge'. I'd call it more of a galaxy than an edge to be honest. If you're looking at Korean only games, Terrans have a gigantic chasam between Protoss that is basically insurmountable at the moment.
2) Removal of abilities and reworking units of the race aren't wildly game changes? Have you ever seen a highly competitive game where they just REMOVE something, or totally rework the unit (Void Ray) in order to balance?
3) The game is not balanced. Tournament play shows Terran has total domination over Zerg and Protoss, with Protoss being on the shortend of the stick getting absolutely smashed by Zerg at the moment because they are unable to secure 3rds cost effectively without being Roach busted every single game.
4) KA being "imbalanced" lead to 1 month of bad Terran win percentage between TvP. It was more flavor of the month that Terran hadn't adapted to yet, considering Terran players didn't know how to even EMP correctly half the time.
5) KA wasn't even imbalanced; for 6 months Terran held a gigantic advantage over Protoss, and yet somehow KA is supposedly only overpowered when Protoss starts winning alot in March. But don't worry, as long as Terran keeps winning 60% or more in literally every match-up, there's no issues!
Even IF KA was supposedly imbalanced, Blizzard should have allowed more time for it to play it, rather than immediately knee jerk nerfing it like they did.
Your arguments are based on opinions of your own. My arguments are based on hard raw statistics. Pretty sure someone has the better argument.
On November 05 2011 01:53 Kovaz wrote: A couple of reasons that I feel KA is good for the game:
1) HT are more exciting than colossi for both players. I would much rather watch an intense micro-battle between ghosts and HTs than watch some colossi and vikings a-move into each other.
2) I feel that the biggest problem with PvT design-wise is that bio armies are too strong and too adaptable for how mobile they are. If KA was still in the game, pure bio armies would just get rolled, rather than just having to add some ghosts and keep on going MMM. I really really really want to see HT armies just win straight up fights against bio, so that terrans can then have a choice between bio (extremely mobile but loses straight-up engagement) and mech (powerful but immobile). TvT and TvZ are arguably the best 2 matchups because of that choice, but bio is >>>>> mech in PvT. The reason is that you can't just throw a few ghosts or vikings into your bio-ball to deal with tanks or banelings. You have to completely change your army composition.
However, I think KA warp-ins are arguably too strong. What I would like to see is the option to either 1) warp in a templar with 50 energy (same cost/cooldown as now) 2) warp in a templar with 75 energy (make it cost more and have a longer cooldown)
KA amulet was never overpowered. Period. Statistics prove that fact. Protoss never was above Terran by more than 2% in tournament play, and the second it was removed, has never come close to going back to 50% except during the month of June 2011 which is more of a statistical anomaly more than anything. Anyone coming in here trying to state otherwise is carrying some serious bias. All KA merely did was not allow Terran to constantly drop/swarm the Protoss player to death, and forced him to actually be cost effective in his trades rather than just suicide units constantly at the Protoss player (which is what exactly is occurring right now).
As much as I want it back in the game too, statistics don't prove that. Whether or not Protoss was doing well has nothing to do with how OP KA is because people were not playing optimally back then, and because there have been other changes to the game since then. The fact that since then ghosts have become much more popular is an example of a change in the way Terrans play that might mean EMP was always OP, but underused. You cannot prove KA is OP, and since it is gone you cannot prove it is not OP either.
So all that you stated was that no one can prove anything was/is OP or balanced, and as such that the removal of KA was bad. I can prove to you with real hard statistics that the removal of KA was bad.
Look at the month of March 2011. Protoss is winning by ALOT right? Why? Because KA usage was starting to see alot of play. Terran players didn't adjust to playing against it yet, and had yet to ever face such heavy usage of HT. What happens? Rather than Terran players actually adjusting their play to a new development in the metagame, they simply CRY (which is the truth, look at the posts on TL of high level Terran players during those months) rather than manning up and trying to figure out how to counter heavy HT usage.
What happens? KA is removed immediately because Protoss is actually beating Terran in tournaments now (when before they were getting smashed by almost 60% almost every month except the month of April). The whole singular reason that it was removed was because of a knee jerk reaction to a huge spike in Protoss victories that had never occured before. The second KA is removed, Terran win percentage immediately goes up, and continues to go up because they figure out how to utilize Ghosts better. 3 months in tournament play since March 2011 have shown Terran players absolutely SMASHING Protoss players. This is not some coincidence; you do not just go from a 58% to 40% swing within a matter of months. KA was CRUCIAL to defending your 3rd and 4th without having to overcommit an army or resources on warp-ins. The removal of it was a boneheaded decision that was fueled by a bunch of Terran whining because Protoss was actually for once winning (look at the graphs, it supports my arguments).
All you have proved is that Protoss strategy relied heavily on KA, and with its removal Protoss strategy was worse. This does not prove that the removal of KA was bad. Look, in general, I agree with your point and the idea that KA is beneficial for expanding more and protecting more bases. But I am not a pro, and I do not understand all the intricacies at play, so I cannot say if it was or was not OP, and I don't think you can as well. I believe that post KA change I have heard Protoss pros like Tyler and Incontrol state that KA removal was a good thing. At least I have heard them say that at some point. I don't know if they still feel that way, or even if they are right, but you cannot prove something was necessary or not OP when strategies change and when people were playing worse than they are now.
The fact that Protoss strategy was relying on KA does not mean that its removal was bad for the game. You have no causal link there.
The removal of KA was bad for the game; it has lead to a total domination of Terran over Protoss by 60% or more in tournament play in certain months. If you think that isn't bad for the game, I don't know what to tell you.
KA was imbalanced. Looking at the gameplay, you can obviously see how hard it is for Terran when Protoss is spamming storms nonstop and when Protoss warps in HT to storm MMM drops instead of reacting to them. I'm glad it was removed.
But I think it was just that TvP was inherently in favor of Terran in Korea because of drops and how good the Terran can micro their MMM, so the KA just evened that out. If anything you shouldn't blame KA being removed as the win rate dropping, MMM is just too good vs gateway units.
On November 05 2011 01:53 Kovaz wrote: A couple of reasons that I feel KA is good for the game:
1) HT are more exciting than colossi for both players. I would much rather watch an intense micro-battle between ghosts and HTs than watch some colossi and vikings a-move into each other.
2) I feel that the biggest problem with PvT design-wise is that bio armies are too strong and too adaptable for how mobile they are. If KA was still in the game, pure bio armies would just get rolled, rather than just having to add some ghosts and keep on going MMM. I really really really want to see HT armies just win straight up fights against bio, so that terrans can then have a choice between bio (extremely mobile but loses straight-up engagement) and mech (powerful but immobile). TvT and TvZ are arguably the best 2 matchups because of that choice, but bio is >>>>> mech in PvT. The reason is that you can't just throw a few ghosts or vikings into your bio-ball to deal with tanks or banelings. You have to completely change your army composition.
However, I think KA warp-ins are arguably too strong. What I would like to see is the option to either 1) warp in a templar with 50 energy (same cost/cooldown as now) 2) warp in a templar with 75 energy (make it cost more and have a longer cooldown)
KA amulet was never overpowered. Period. Statistics prove that fact. Protoss never was above Terran by more than 2% in tournament play, and the second it was removed, has never come close to going back to 50% except during the month of June 2011 which is more of a statistical anomaly more than anything. Anyone coming in here trying to state otherwise is carrying some serious bias. All KA merely did was not allow Terran to constantly drop/swarm the Protoss player to death, and forced him to actually be cost effective in his trades rather than just suicide units constantly at the Protoss player (which is what exactly is occurring right now).
As much as I want it back in the game too, statistics don't prove that. Whether or not Protoss was doing well has nothing to do with how OP KA is because people were not playing optimally back then, and because there have been other changes to the game since then. The fact that since then ghosts have become much more popular is an example of a change in the way Terrans play that might mean EMP was always OP, but underused. You cannot prove KA is OP, and since it is gone you cannot prove it is not OP either.
So all that you stated was that no one can prove anything was/is OP or balanced, and as such that the removal of KA was bad. I can prove to you with real hard statistics that the removal of KA was bad.
Look at the month of March 2011. Protoss is winning by ALOT right? Why? Because KA usage was starting to see alot of play. Terran players didn't adjust to playing against it yet, and had yet to ever face such heavy usage of HT. What happens? Rather than Terran players actually adjusting their play to a new development in the metagame, they simply CRY (which is the truth, look at the posts on TL of high level Terran players during those months) rather than manning up and trying to figure out how to counter heavy HT usage.
What happens? KA is removed immediately because Protoss is actually beating Terran in tournaments now (when before they were getting smashed by almost 60% almost every month except the month of April). The whole singular reason that it was removed was because of a knee jerk reaction to a huge spike in Protoss victories that had never occured before. The second KA is removed, Terran win percentage immediately goes up, and continues to go up because they figure out how to utilize Ghosts better. 3 months in tournament play since March 2011 have shown Terran players absolutely SMASHING Protoss players. This is not some coincidence; you do not just go from a 58% to 40% swing within a matter of months. KA was CRUCIAL to defending your 3rd and 4th without having to overcommit an army or resources on warp-ins. The removal of it was a boneheaded decision that was fueled by a bunch of Terran whining because Protoss was actually for once winning (look at the graphs, it supports my arguments).
All you have proved is that Protoss strategy relied heavily on KA, and with its removal Protoss strategy was worse. This does not prove that the removal of KA was bad. Look, in general, I agree with your point and the idea that KA is beneficial for expanding more and protecting more bases. But I am not a pro, and I do not understand all the intricacies at play, so I cannot say if it was or was not OP, and I don't think you can as well. I believe that post KA change I have heard Protoss pros like Tyler and Incontrol state that KA removal was a good thing. At least I have heard them say that at some point. I don't know if they still feel that way, or even if they are right, but you cannot prove something was necessary or not OP when strategies change and when people were playing worse than they are now.
The fact that Protoss strategy was relying on KA does not mean that its removal was bad for the game. You have no causal link there.
The removal of KA was bad for the game; it has lead to a total domination of Terran over Protoss by 60% or more in tournament play in certain months. If you think that isn't bad for the game, I don't know what to tell you.
KA was imbalanced. Looking at the gameplay, you can obviously see how hard it is for Terran when Protoss is spamming storms nonstop and when Protoss warps in HT to storm MMM drops instead of reacting to them. I'm glad it was removed.
But I think it was just that TvP was inherently in favor of Terran in Korea because of drops and how good the Terran can micro their MMM, so the KA just evened that out. If anything you shouldn't blame KA being removed as the win rate dropping, MMM is just too good vs gateway units.
KA was not imbalanced; for 6 months Protoss had no significant advantage over Terran. For the majority of those 6 months, they were being smashed. Only when KA started picking up in popularity did Protoss suddenly start winning tournaments across the board, and it was for a VERY short period of time too.
I didn't see Terran players whine about KA during beta, or during the 6 months of total domination that they had over the world of SC2. So how come they only started to cry about it during the month of March when a race actually tries something new for once?
On November 05 2011 00:30 SupLilSon wrote: Wait, am I missing something from the OP? I really don't understand how those 2 games show anything about KA at all. First game is San vs Sc and second game is Oz vs MKP. So you are trying to analyze balance based off of 2 games with completely different players? You may have a point but the extreme lack of effort to provide any basis seriously hinders this argument. IIRC, even a large portion of Protoss players back then were convinced that KA was pretty damn broken.
All of the games from the old series involved KA just about. Game 9 of the new series is of the same players with heavy HT play but no KA. That's 6 games, plus a non KA game to show San and SC's skill is still about equal.
San is known for liking HT play, but the fact that he gets curbstomped when he's a whole gold base ahead (3 bases to 2) for 4 game minutes is mindblowing. I think that one game is a perfect example of why KA makes more sense than the route Blizz is trying to take.
One game shows that they are equal skill level? You must not watch GSL too much... Sc is a far superior player to San and IMO KA was the only reason San even took games from Sc. KA in conjunction with warpgate was a terrible function to have in the game. 6 supply of templar could wipe out 50+ supply of bio on a whim. And you would have games like the Sc vs San game where a Terran player would be astronomically ahead yet not be able to do anything because of the pure strength of KA.
SC was not a far superior player to San then, and the only reason why he lost was because he missed a shit ton of EMPs and made bone headed mistakes throughout that entire series. People arguing that KA removal was proper really don't understand the game at all, because as a P, the only way to defend against 2+ Medivac drops without over comitting as P was through the usage of KA.
Since the removal of KA, PvT win percentage plummeted from 50% (Yes, at the time when KA was at it's height in popularity, Protoss was still only winning 50% of the time against Terran in tournament play) to a poor like mid to low 40s. Blizzard obviously made a mistake, and KA removal was obviously crippling to an entire tech tree that was based on KA.
Not to mention that nothing was given in return to Protoss except an Archon buff which really isn't even that good, since Marines eat through Archon shields like breakfast anyways, same with mass EMPs which has become extremely popular lately. Storm was balanced around the fact that Khydarian Amulet existed; if KA was to be removed, they need to revert Storm back to the old beta radius where it was way bigger and much more useful. Right now Storm is pretty much terrible against any decent Terran, and going Templar tech is suicide for the most part.
Right now if you have a hard to defend 3rd, Terran basically gets a free win without even having to do anything but harass/contain with drops and trade armies with Protoss effectively (which isn't hard to do as long as you fight in an open area where you can surround/get a good concave). All the talk about Terran having a weak late game (of which there were plenty of top pros whining about) was total nonsense after watching guys like Puma and MVP absolutely destroy Archon/Templar/Colossus armies with MMMGViking and solid EMPs.
In short, KA removal was bad, especially when Protoss was given 0 compensation for it. Protoss has no way to secure 3rds without dying if the 3rd is slightly too far away from the natural. Warp-ins are not strong enough to defend against Rax drops. If you watch any recent mid to late game TvP, it favors Terran heavily now with their ability to just harass literally for free and do massive damage. That was a huge problem that all Protoss players were worried about, and clearly that is what is what causing Protoss to lose so much (other than 1-1-1 which was just silly).
Ok, w.e don't believe Jinro, a player who probably has 100% more experience and knowledge with both those players... I'm not gonna argue who is better and who is not.
You realize that Jinro and Tyler actually argued against the removal of KA when it was being removed right? They wanted alternatives rather than removals. In fact, alot of pro Terran players stated that removal of KA was NOT the way to balance the game. Right now, you see Protoss players unable to secure their 3rd against Terran players in nearly every single high level game, unless it is a map where the 3rd is easy to get to. That reason is because there is NO more KA. Without it, you get utterly creamed by octodrops that will constantly happen, as the Terran player slowly pulls ahead by continuously expanding and just massing cheap effective infantry that can trade armies with you all day.
And at the time, results wise BOTH San and SC were equals. You aren't going to win that argument, period.
Results matter very little when determining who is better -_-
On November 05 2011 02:21 mlspmatt wrote: KA was imbalanced, that's why it was removed. KA with warp gates allowed a HT to be warped almost anywhere on the map with instant sci storm. In contrast, ghosts take 45 second to train, then they walk to where they need to go so reinforcing a battle in the middle of the map or getting ghosts to counter Templar was impossible.
If one race has an ability to do something, that the other race is simply incapable of dealing with regardless of skill, That's the definition of imbalanced. Regardless of how skilled a player is, it is not possible to train a ghost, and transport that ghost to the battle field in time to counter a warped in HT with KA. Its simple math. That's why the removal was necessary - and a good change.
This is also poor logic. You are taking one unit as a counter to HT and then saying that because that unit does not work as well as the other unit, then HT must be OP. That is not the case. Perhaps bio play is not the optimal strategy against high templar play. Perhaps mech play in TvP, although harder to pull off, might be the optimal strategy, in which case it would be difficult to storm sieged tanks with vikings protecting form warp prism high templar.
I am getting a little annoyed here with everyone trying to prove it was balanced or imbalanced. You cannot prove that. You can't. Seeing as the races are so different, with so many different strengths and weaknesses, proving balance is ridiculously difficult.
Instead of talking about whether it was balanced or not, since I am sure there is a way to keep it in the game and make it balanced, why don't we discuss whether or not it was an interesting mechanic? Someone earlier mentioned that it was boring and less skillful to warp in instant damage like the high templar is. One possible result of KA is that Zergling run bys would be much more difficult to achieve since storm decimates zerglings. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?
Personally, I thought KA was more likely to allow Protoss to get a 4th or 5th base, and I like longer macro games so this appealed to me. What are some other negatives and positives of the mechanic that have nothing to do with balance?
I can't take seriously anyone who doesn't think the ghost is the unit designed to counter HT. I'm sorry, that's beyond ridiculous.
Perhaps bio play is not the optimal strategy against high templar play. Perhaps mech play in TvP, although harder to pull off, might be the optimal strategy, in which case it would be difficult to storm sieged tanks with vikings protecting form warp prism high templar.
You might be right here. If i can just get protoss players to tell me before the game what build they're going to do, then i can adjust my play and use mech. Otherwise, by the time Protoss techs to HT, Terran already has his infrastructure built, upgrades started, and its too late.
Do you watch starcraft? Your arguing an ability that was removed months and months ago was a bad decision and your reasoning is that of a 6 year old - Ghosts may not be the best counter to HT and maybe Terran should use Mech vs HT.
I don't really understand all these comments like "KA was obviously OP" or "KA was obviously imbalanced" Virtually every single player is biased, or every single player isn't skilled eough to deal with it.
If you take out bias out of it, statistically the matchup favored the TERRAN at the height of KA. If you take out bias, KA strategies were only around for a month, not even enough time or a full metagame shift. Blizzard seriously removed and ability based off 1 small month of pro data. what happened to the wait and see approach?
The thing that irritates me is that with the energy upgrade for infestors it's just the build time for infestor to be able to lay down fungels. Same goes for ghosts, they can spawn and launch EMPs. Now, I know its arguable that warp-cooldown isn't an unit producing time factor, but let's say we do - we have to wait ~40 seconds for cooldown, ~5 seconds for the warpin and then wait ~44 seconds to be able to storm. I really dont understand why they removed KA.
You are comparing 9 games where it was balanced to 900 games when it made protoss win. I am not seeing the argument here. It's like saying when roach was 1 supply, it made for better games because in these 5 games I chose it was super close.
Hey, remember how everyone was complaining that Protoss is way too boring to play with/against as it had pretty much one viable army composition that revolved around cololsi with added templar in the late game?
Remember how Blizzard addressed this by making the Archon, Immortal and WP more useful, thus giving P player more options? Remember how they also fixed the shittiest and most boring MU in the entire game?
This is just a reminder.
4) KA being "imbalanced" lead to 1 month of bad Terran win percentage between TvP. It was more flavor of the month that Terran hadn't adapted to yet, considering Terran players didn't know how to even EMP correctly half the time.
Except there was talk about Blizzard 'looking into' KA since December 2010/January 2011. What now?
On November 05 2011 00:30 SupLilSon wrote: Wait, am I missing something from the OP? I really don't understand how those 2 games show anything about KA at all. First game is San vs Sc and second game is Oz vs MKP. So you are trying to analyze balance based off of 2 games with completely different players? You may have a point but the extreme lack of effort to provide any basis seriously hinders this argument. IIRC, even a large portion of Protoss players back then were convinced that KA was pretty damn broken.
All of the games from the old series involved KA just about. Game 9 of the new series is of the same players with heavy HT play but no KA. That's 6 games, plus a non KA game to show San and SC's skill is still about equal.
San is known for liking HT play, but the fact that he gets curbstomped when he's a whole gold base ahead (3 bases to 2) for 4 game minutes is mindblowing. I think that one game is a perfect example of why KA makes more sense than the route Blizz is trying to take.
One game shows that they are equal skill level? You must not watch GSL too much... Sc is a far superior player to San and IMO KA was the only reason San even took games from Sc. KA in conjunction with warpgate was a terrible function to have in the game. 6 supply of templar could wipe out 50+ supply of bio on a whim. And you would have games like the Sc vs San game where a Terran player would be astronomically ahead yet not be able to do anything because of the pure strength of KA.
SC was not a far superior player to San then, and the only reason why he lost was because he missed a shit ton of EMPs and made bone headed mistakes throughout that entire series. People arguing that KA removal was proper really don't understand the game at all, because as a P, the only way to defend against 2+ Medivac drops without over comitting as P was through the usage of KA.
Since the removal of KA, PvT win percentage plummeted from 50% (Yes, at the time when KA was at it's height in popularity, Protoss was still only winning 50% of the time against Terran in tournament play) to a poor like mid to low 40s. Blizzard obviously made a mistake, and KA removal was obviously crippling to an entire tech tree that was based on KA.
Not to mention that nothing was given in return to Protoss except an Archon buff which really isn't even that good, since Marines eat through Archon shields like breakfast anyways, same with mass EMPs which has become extremely popular lately. Storm was balanced around the fact that Khydarian Amulet existed; if KA was to be removed, they need to revert Storm back to the old beta radius where it was way bigger and much more useful. Right now Storm is pretty much terrible against any decent Terran, and going Templar tech is suicide for the most part.
Right now if you have a hard to defend 3rd, Terran basically gets a free win without even having to do anything but harass/contain with drops and trade armies with Protoss effectively (which isn't hard to do as long as you fight in an open area where you can surround/get a good concave). All the talk about Terran having a weak late game (of which there were plenty of top pros whining about) was total nonsense after watching guys like Puma and MVP absolutely destroy Archon/Templar/Colossus armies with MMMGViking and solid EMPs.
In short, KA removal was bad, especially when Protoss was given 0 compensation for it. Protoss has no way to secure 3rds without dying if the 3rd is slightly too far away from the natural. Warp-ins are not strong enough to defend against Rax drops. If you watch any recent mid to late game TvP, it favors Terran heavily now with their ability to just harass literally for free and do massive damage. That was a huge problem that all Protoss players were worried about, and clearly that is what is what causing Protoss to lose so much (other than 1-1-1 which was just silly).
Ok, w.e don't believe Jinro, a player who probably has 100% more experience and knowledge with both those players... I'm not gonna argue who is better and who is not.
You realize that Jinro and Tyler actually argued against the removal of KA when it was being removed right? They wanted alternatives rather than removals. In fact, alot of pro Terran players stated that removal of KA was NOT the way to balance the game. Right now, you see Protoss players unable to secure their 3rd against Terran players in nearly every single high level game, unless it is a map where the 3rd is easy to get to. That reason is because there is NO more KA. Without it, you get utterly creamed by octodrops that will constantly happen, as the Terran player slowly pulls ahead by continuously expanding and just massing cheap effective infantry that can trade armies with you all day.
And at the time, results wise BOTH San and SC were equals. You aren't going to win that argument, period.
Results matter very little when determining who is better -_-
Khaydarin was way too strong.
I would agree that KA was too strong in it's old form, but straight up removing it was not any better. I think however an upgrade should be available that let's templar spawn with 60-65 energy. Enough energy such that if you engage an enemy army on their side of the map and happen to get beaten, you'll be able to warp templar in and have AoE defense available as a response.
I was thinking about making topic like that few months ago. KA gave toss some sort of defensive advantage which P doesnt have at all.
warp prism storms OP? they're easier to spot and defend then baneling drops or BFH. Long games were more entertaining one year ago. Remember Mana vs Naama? Back and forth all game long, now the game usually ends after one big engagement.
Waiting 44.4 sec to get storm is really pain in the ass, basically u are investing in something useless for almost one minute and even after that u are not sure to do any damage (compared to emp/fungal)
On November 05 2011 02:51 GhostFall wrote: I don't really understand all these comments like "KA was obviously OP" or "KA was obviously imbalanced" Virtually every single player is biased, or every single player isn't skilled eough to deal with it.
If you take out bias out of it, statistically the matchup favored the TERRAN at the height of KA. If you take out bias, KA strategies were only around for a month, not even enough time or a full metagame shift. Blizzard seriously removed and ability based off 1 small month of pro data. what happened to the wait and see approach?
They nurfed reapers like the day after Morrows Reaper assault vs Idra. Thors were nurfed the week after Thorzains Thor build was so successful in TSL 3. When Blizzard sees something they think is clearly wrong, they fix it immediately.
I don't understand this discussion at all. When Browder mentioned KA in a HOTS interviews, he chuckled as to how they thought KA would ever be balanced in combination with warp gates. He didn't say it was a close call, he didn't say it needed a lot of thought, he said it was obvious.
On November 05 2011 02:21 mlspmatt wrote: KA was imbalanced, that's why it was removed. KA with warp gates allowed a HT to be warped almost anywhere on the map with instant sci storm. In contrast, ghosts take 45 second to train, then they walk to where they need to go so reinforcing a battle in the middle of the map or getting ghosts to counter Templar was impossible.
If one race has an ability to do something, that the other race is simply incapable of dealing with regardless of skill, That's the definition of imbalanced. Regardless of how skilled a player is, it is not possible to train a ghost, and transport that ghost to the battle field in time to counter a warped in HT with KA. Its simple math. That's why the removal was necessary - and a good change.
This is also poor logic. You are taking one unit as a counter to HT and then saying that because that unit does not work as well as the other unit, then HT must be OP. That is not the case. Perhaps bio play is not the optimal strategy against high templar play. Perhaps mech play in TvP, although harder to pull off, might be the optimal strategy, in which case it would be difficult to storm sieged tanks with vikings protecting form warp prism high templar.
I am getting a little annoyed here with everyone trying to prove it was balanced or imbalanced. You cannot prove that. You can't. Seeing as the races are so different, with so many different strengths and weaknesses, proving balance is ridiculously difficult.
Instead of talking about whether it was balanced or not, since I am sure there is a way to keep it in the game and make it balanced, why don't we discuss whether or not it was an interesting mechanic? Someone earlier mentioned that it was boring and less skillful to warp in instant damage like the high templar is. One possible result of KA is that Zergling run bys would be much more difficult to achieve since storm decimates zerglings. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?
Personally, I thought KA was more likely to allow Protoss to get a 4th or 5th base, and I like longer macro games so this appealed to me. What are some other negatives and positives of the mechanic that have nothing to do with balance?
I can't take seriously anyone who doesn't think the ghost is the unit designed to counter HT. I'm sorry, that's beyond ridiculous.
Perhaps bio play is not the optimal strategy against high templar play. Perhaps mech play in TvP, although harder to pull off, might be the optimal strategy, in which case it would be difficult to storm sieged tanks with vikings protecting form warp prism high templar.
You might be right here. If i can just get protoss players to tell me before the game what build they're going to do, then i can adjust my play and use mech. Otherwise, by the time Protoss techs to HT, Terran already has his infrastructure built, upgrades started, and its too late.
Do you watch starcraft? Your arguing an ability that was removed months and months ago was a bad decision and your reasoning is that of a 6 year old - Ghosts may not be the best counter to HT and maybe Terran should use Mech vs HT.
I am arguing that balance is almost impossible to logically argue through because there are way too many factors and match ups involved. I am arguing that you have insufficient and imperfect data. I am arguing that due to shifts in the future metagame, it is possible that KA may be OP or may not be OP.
I am also arguing that whether or not a unit is supposed to hard counter another unit, does not mean that that is the only way to play. Your logic is very poor. Vikings hard counter BroodLords which means I shouldn't use Ghosts to snipe Broodlords? Marauders hard counter Ultralisks, so I shouldn't use Ghosts to snipe Ultralisks? Ghosts can EMP Infestors, so I shouldn't use Siege tanks to outrange infesters and kill them? What?
I am arguing that Ghosts work very well in bio play, they transition nicely into it because you already have barracks with tech labs on them. I am also saying that if you were playing mech, then high templars would be outranged by siege tanks (the way infestors are) so you could arguably handle them, especially since with enough blue flame hellions, you could roast them fairly well. I am not sure how viable the strategy is because Bio play is easier and more popular than mech in TvP, and because KA is removed.
Your theorycrafting is terrible though. You can tech to Ghosts after barracks. Literally, one building after barracks and you can build ghosts. To get High Templars you have to build a Cyber Core, then a Twilight Council, then a Templar Archives, then research Storm, then research KA for the situation you are describing. Are you seriously trying to argue that with KA it is impossible for Terran to get ghosts out in time?
On November 05 2011 02:21 mlspmatt wrote: KA was imbalanced, that's why it was removed. KA with warp gates allowed a HT to be warped almost anywhere on the map with instant sci storm. In contrast, ghosts take 45 second to train, then they walk to where they need to go so reinforcing a battle in the middle of the map or getting ghosts to counter Templar was impossible.
If one race has an ability to do something, that the other race is simply incapable of dealing with regardless of skill, That's the definition of imbalanced. Regardless of how skilled a player is, it is not possible to train a ghost, and transport that ghost to the battle field in time to counter a warped in HT with KA. Its simple math. That's why the removal was necessary - and a good change.
This is also poor logic. You are taking one unit as a counter to HT and then saying that because that unit does not work as well as the other unit, then HT must be OP. That is not the case. Perhaps bio play is not the optimal strategy against high templar play. Perhaps mech play in TvP, although harder to pull off, might be the optimal strategy, in which case it would be difficult to storm sieged tanks with vikings protecting form warp prism high templar.
I am getting a little annoyed here with everyone trying to prove it was balanced or imbalanced. You cannot prove that. You can't. Seeing as the races are so different, with so many different strengths and weaknesses, proving balance is ridiculously difficult.
Instead of talking about whether it was balanced or not, since I am sure there is a way to keep it in the game and make it balanced, why don't we discuss whether or not it was an interesting mechanic? Someone earlier mentioned that it was boring and less skillful to warp in instant damage like the high templar is. One possible result of KA is that Zergling run bys would be much more difficult to achieve since storm decimates zerglings. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?
Personally, I thought KA was more likely to allow Protoss to get a 4th or 5th base, and I like longer macro games so this appealed to me. What are some other negatives and positives of the mechanic that have nothing to do with balance?
I agree with you in general, in particular about the ridiculous reductive ghost v templar (v infestor) comparisons, as if all three casters are supposed to be completely equal or equivalent, rather than suitably useful to their particular races.
Painuser (I think on SoTG) talked about how KA made it impossible for a terran to just roll through a protoss after winning a major engagement, as is kind of shown in the sC v San game. He was correct but that was for me exactly what made KA a good thing. You're terran, you've taken a significant advantage through good play, so consolidate your advantage, the game shouldn't be over just because you've won a big battle. The potential for the protoss to claw his back if the terran doesn't micro well out of the storms made for good games, as did the sight of San hanging on by his fingernails.
It's worth noting who won the San v sC game in the end, and brings up the other point about "warp-in storms", 150 gas for one storm. I mean 5sec warp-in for storm is great but you still need a really massive economy for the amount of storms that could really devastate an army. So what did sC do, just kept wearing San down until his economy wasn't able to support 1 storm per 150 gas.
When I watched that game despite the protoss losing I thought it pointed to a bright future for PvT as a spectacle. Others may disagree, I guess some people thought it a bit silly but personally I wish we still had the chance for pro games like that.
There is a reasonable point about the power of colossus + storm in a death ball, especially if you have a pylon in the vicinity.. but I really rather they'd addressed this by doing something to colossus rather than getting rid of KA. I'm disappointed that there doesn't seem to be any sight of it's re-emergence in HOTS.
On November 05 2011 00:30 SupLilSon wrote: Wait, am I missing something from the OP? I really don't understand how those 2 games show anything about KA at all. First game is San vs Sc and second game is Oz vs MKP. So you are trying to analyze balance based off of 2 games with completely different players? You may have a point but the extreme lack of effort to provide any basis seriously hinders this argument. IIRC, even a large portion of Protoss players back then were convinced that KA was pretty damn broken.
All of the games from the old series involved KA just about. Game 9 of the new series is of the same players with heavy HT play but no KA. That's 6 games, plus a non KA game to show San and SC's skill is still about equal.
San is known for liking HT play, but the fact that he gets curbstomped when he's a whole gold base ahead (3 bases to 2) for 4 game minutes is mindblowing. I think that one game is a perfect example of why KA makes more sense than the route Blizz is trying to take.
One game shows that they are equal skill level? You must not watch GSL too much... Sc is a far superior player to San and IMO KA was the only reason San even took games from Sc. KA in conjunction with warpgate was a terrible function to have in the game. 6 supply of templar could wipe out 50+ supply of bio on a whim. And you would have games like the Sc vs San game where a Terran player would be astronomically ahead yet not be able to do anything because of the pure strength of KA.
I watched all the old games in the OP and I never saw one where Terran was astronomically ahead and couldn't win. I did however see one old game and one new game where the Protoss was astronomically ahead and lost. I mean a 4 minute lead on a gold base... ????
this thread contains so much bias and misinformation. -,.- everyone just please take a step back and read what you've wrote, review it, see if it makes sense before posting. comparing psi storm and emp, ht drop to medivac drop, blaming KA while ignoring WG, these stuff just induces facepalm and derails the discussion.
now with that said, KA's removal i think is unfair, it should have reduced the gain by half so it still takes time to gain enough energy for storm but taking it away was just damn harsh. there are times where my split templars get emp blanketed and forced to just make archons. now i make templars and leave them in base for just in case of emp wipe...but that shouldn't be necessary.
On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote: The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference
Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot.
Great point! We should have troops calldown.. NOW WE'RE TALKING!
And a lot of you are just looking at PvT, what about PvZ and PvP?
PvZ KA will help defend vs mutas It may be an alternative to colosus against hydras. KA not good vs roaches, brood lords, ultras.. onyl good vs clumped lings and vs hydras. drop play is risky vs zerg because they get easy map cotnrol
PvP this would be interesting. obviuosly mirror matches should be held to a different measure of balance.. but if this results in less colosus battles, id be all for it
You are confusing what is good. Storm is good against Mutas and an alternative to Colossi vs Hydras. KA does not make storm better or worse vs these things. What KA does it make it so it removes any strategical positioning with your HT and army. You don't have to use anything to defend until you need to defend which removes a big element of play. The opponent can no longer force your hand into a specific position so he can abuse a hole it creates somewhere else since with KA there are no holes.
That in a nutshell is why KA was removed. It doesn't add options to the game, it removes them.
KA doesnt make the deathball stronger. Any templars sitting in your deathabll will already have enough energy anyways.
Protoss units are not very mobile, and they are very weak when not all together. Protoss is also the race that is most dependent on gas. It is too weakening to them to have 2 HT and a couple zealots sitting in EVERY base.
Drops are already really devastating. If your gates are on cooldown, you have no choice but to move your whole (or at least half) army do defend the drop.
Try practicing more. It sounds like that's more your problem rather than a lack of KA. One templar at each base can shut down drops and the warpgate mechanic means that you don't even need units waiting before hand. Increase the speed of your play and terran drop play will be less of a hindrance.
One templar cannot shut down all drop play by itself, come on. Hell, one templar can't even kill marauder drops if they sit through an entire storm.
I think that HTs would be super viable if they had KA or a speedupgrade: If you specifically look for it in progames you see HTs usually getting of one storm or/and a feedback and then dying, even if they are made into archons. If they had higher speed they would be able to be reused or get morphed into archons safely. Why reintroducing KA would make them super viable doesnt need to be explained does it?
We don't actually know if KA was OP or not. People seem to be forgetting that when KA was still in the game HT were actually used less often in PvT than they are now. Colossi were almost always the more popular choice back then, HT only saw use fairly late game. Terran almost never build Ghosts until HT were on the field also.
The famous San game was actually played AFTER the KA removal was up on the PTR, prior to that we heard almost 0 complaints directed at HT, in fact it was often the opposite, people would complain that only Colossi were viable and the Templar tech path too weak.
There was never a period where Protoss were smashing Terran in every tournament by warping in HT with Storm everywhere, it simply never happened.
Like many others, I think the proper response would be to bring back Amulet but have it only do +15 energy, so you could warp in Templar but they wouldn't immediately have Storms. It would take about 8 seconds to build up to 75 energy, which I think it balanced given that Infestors get an immediate Fungal with their upgrade.
The only reason I can see for not doing this is if Blizzard wants HT's to be Protoss's "timing dilemma" the same way that Drones vs. Army is for Zerg. Do you warp in a round of Templar now knowing that if you get hit in the next 45 seconds you'll probably lose or get smashed, or do you make the safer play and warp in normal units that give you safety for the next 45 seconds but have less utility past 45 seconds?
This coming from a zerg who already sucks against Protoss...
On November 05 2011 00:00 VeryAverage wrote: All I can say that EMPs were a whole lot less devastating because you could warp in HTs after all the EMPs were off, so even though your army's shields were all gone, you could still safely land storms which would even out the battle a bit.
It didn't make a huge difference in PvZ or PvP. I liked the upgrade personally, I think they should have just made it 15+ energy instead of 25+ or even not touched it at all.
They were also a whole lot less devastating because the pathing spread out units a lot more, few Terrans got more than a couple SVs in TvP (I know I didn't), and Protoss wasn't completely dependent on its Tier 3 units like they are in SC2. But when you have someone like David Kim balancing the game, who admitted to not watching GSL very much and who primarily consults NA players, who are bad except Huk and Idra, and we know Idra's opinion can't be taken too seriously, then we can expect things like KA removal.
The famous San game was actually played AFTER the KA removal was up on the PTR, prior to that we heard almost 0 complaints directed at HT, in fact it was often the opposite, people would complain that only Colossi were viable and the Templar tech path too weak.
Lower-tier NA pros complained. GG. I recall David Kim asking Catz and Minigun on the matter, and I in fact was watching Minigun's stream those many months ago when dayvie was consulting him. lol. I wish Kim would focus on where people know how to play the game, that being Korea, rather than on the second worst realm.
KA was way to strong for 2days meta game since toss evolved so much compared to T. T is overpowerd in the late game and its a known fact however so few games get there that it seems pointless to brain storm how to balance it now before HOTS release. With KA we won't have the problems we do now but is the T who would be underpowerd almost all game long and toss that would be unbeatable late game. Its not like tosses can't win a game if they are better by a decent-large margin without risking hugely ( see: HuK/Sase/Naniwa PvT )and honestly it seems to me that Sage/MC have a weaker pvt right now then our foreign toss "trio". If there is an easy "balance" button then i say press it but i see non and KA is not it, KA is switching up whos owning and who is forced to get ahead early/mid/early-late game to win
On November 05 2011 03:15 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On November 05 2011 00:00 VeryAverage wrote: All I can say that EMPs were a whole lot less devastating because you could warp in HTs after all the EMPs were off, so even though your army's shields were all gone, you could still safely land storms which would even out the battle a bit.
It didn't make a huge difference in PvZ or PvP. I liked the upgrade personally, I think they should have just made it 15+ energy instead of 25+ or even not touched it at all.
They were also a whole lot less devastating because the pathing spread out units a lot more, few Terrans got more than a couple SVs in TvP (I know I didn't), and Protoss wasn't completely dependent on its Tier 3 units like they are in SC2. But when you have someone like David Kim balancing the game, who admitted to not watching GSL very much and who primarily consults NA players, who are bad except Huk and Idra, and we know Idra's opinion can't be taken too seriously, then we can expect things like KA removal.
When the hell did David Kim said that o.o For all i know he takes korean ladder wlrs and gsl more seriously then NA/EU Gsl is the only god damn tournament that is sponsored in a huge way by blizzard dam it.
On November 05 2011 03:15 Aterons_toss wrote: KA was way to strong for 2days meta game since toss evolved so much compared to T. T is overpowerd in the late game and its a known fact however so few games get there that it seems pointless to brain storm how to balance it now before HOTS release. With KA we won't have the problems we do now but is the T who would be underpowerd almost all game long and toss that would be unbeatable late game. Its not like tosses can't win a game if they are better by a decent-large margin without risking hugely ( see: HuK/Sase/Naniwa PvT )and honestly it seems to me that Sage/MC have a weaker pvt right now then our foreign toss "trio". If there is an easy "balance" button then i say press it but i see non and KA is not it, KA is switching up whos owning and who is forced to get ahead early/mid/early-late game to win
On November 05 2011 03:15 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On November 05 2011 00:00 VeryAverage wrote: All I can say that EMPs were a whole lot less devastating because you could warp in HTs after all the EMPs were off, so even though your army's shields were all gone, you could still safely land storms which would even out the battle a bit.
It didn't make a huge difference in PvZ or PvP. I liked the upgrade personally, I think they should have just made it 15+ energy instead of 25+ or even not touched it at all.
They were also a whole lot less devastating because the pathing spread out units a lot more, few Terrans got more than a couple SVs in TvP (I know I didn't), and Protoss wasn't completely dependent on its Tier 3 units like they are in SC2. But when you have someone like David Kim balancing the game, who admitted to not watching GSL very much and who primarily consults NA players, who are bad except Huk and Idra, and we know Idra's opinion can't be taken too seriously, then we can expect things like KA removal.
When the hell did David Kim said that o.o For all i know he takes korean ladder wlrs and gsl more seriously then NA/EU Gsl is the only god damn tournament that is sponsored in a huge way by blizzard dam it.
I'm not going to look through interviews to find it, but I'm just surprised you weren't around even recently, because it caused quite a stir. People were even mentioning it in the Questions for Browder thread just a couple weeks ago. And so what if the GSL is the highest skill tournament? If he was serious, he would be learning Korean (if he doesn't) or getting someone who can translate, and would be consulting high-level Korean pros on B.net, not low-tier NA pros. On top of that, he would be watching every set of the GSL (apparently the GSL is too boring; he'd rather watch international tournaments or low-skilled players from NA).
I've said this before, and it is too damn powerful for THIS game. WARP in with WARP PRISM BUFF is TOO strong. if it was implemented again, now that people use warp prism, you could warp in a storm in your opponents mineral line whenever u want. lolz~!
On November 04 2011 23:51 RemrafGrez wrote: Old games with khaydarin amulet lasted 40+ minutes and were very close going to one player or the other. See here: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors2/vod/62509
Protoss up 1 base most of game? A gold base ahead for 4 minutes... from 15 minutes till 19 minutes. Harassing with warp prisms. Now SC makes more ghosts, uses snipe or EMP depending on what is better at that point in time. Makes a viking to finally shut down the harass at his main.
Every big engagement goes in favor of Terran I think.
And I don't think you can say SC is better than San, because San beat him earlier in the series when SC tried to do a 1 base all in. SC did beat Oz with a delayed 1/1/1 one base build in game 5. San's PvP seems lacking, but PvT he seems solid... but can't hold on going HT + DT + gateway + warp prism.
Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT?
Sc is way better than San and has been way better than San for a long time...
Cause the 22 best RTS gamers in the entire world just happened to pick terran am i right?
On November 05 2011 03:24 Grampz wrote: I've said this before, and it is too damn powerful for THIS game. WARP in with WARP PRISM BUFF is TOO strong. if it was implemented again, now that people use warp prism, you could warp in a storm in your opponents mineral line whenever u want. lolz~!
By "whenever you want" do you mean past the 11-13 minute mark at expansions that don't have turrets or spore crawlers?
On November 05 2011 03:24 Grampz wrote: I've said this before, and it is too damn powerful for THIS game. WARP in with WARP PRISM BUFF is TOO strong. if it was implemented again, now that people use warp prism, you could warp in a storm in your opponents mineral line whenever u want. lolz~!
That was actually done. Not often, but it was. Besides, not warping in but having the ht loaded makes a storm drop stronger as it requires a faster reaction from your opponent, and it's not that different than say a baneling bomb anyway.
On topic: i think if the ghost vs templar battle was a bit more even, ka not being ingame wouldn't be that big of a deal. Snipe and emp having range of 9 and 2.25 speed for templar would even things out decently; KA together with warpgates causes too many issues imo. It would still be nice if it was +15 energy instead, but oh well...
On November 05 2011 03:24 Grampz wrote: I've said this before, and it is too damn powerful for THIS game. WARP in with WARP PRISM BUFF is TOO strong. if it was implemented again, now that people use warp prism, you could warp in a storm in your opponents mineral line whenever u want. lolz~!
dude, how do you play this game? are you also worried about burrowed infestors? dt rushes? cloack banshee? i dont know what games you've been playing but storm drops have been around for almost a decade in THIS(starcraft) game.
I have always felt even top pros can't feed back enough ghost and spread there Templars enough to ever trade evenly in emp vs Storm battles It's to much of a luck factor sometimes. Also it bothers me they never tried balancing the ka first before a full remove yet things like fungal np and emp all have changed or had changes tested on the ptr. I think if they reduced the cost of the ka and gave it say a plus 10 or 12 energy it would fit Nicely where Protoss couldnt use it as a crutch but would also close the gap where if you see and incoming counter attack u could warp it in time if scouted early but couldn't if u didn't scout it wary enough
It would be nice if Protoss were rewarded for being able to expand more, instead of punished because defense of multipronged attacks is harder for them than other races.
Currently it also seems like Terran gets too big of an advantage if they win an egagement. White Ra often complains on his stream about Terran being able to finish you when their units are all in the red.
I think they shouldn't just remove stuff from the game if it may be OP. They could have atleast tweak it, I believe that if they would have led the metagame evolve more or just reduce the amount of energy it adds so the storm after warpin isn't instant, it could have worked. Before KA removel Protoss was really strong PvT, without it emps just crush the shit out of the protoss army late game (not saying EMP is OP or anything, just that without KA ghost are stronger than HT). As I said I don't like the attitude of just removing stuff if it's too strong, I'd have prefered to see the game evolve with it, especially given that protoss is already really low on unit specific upgrades (especially given that they also removed void ray speed).
The point to removing KA was the fact that if all 3 races paid for their respective spellcasters at the same time, HTs would end up with over 100 energy when the infestors popped which was extremely imbalanced. The only way KA should be implemented back into the game is if they remove warp gates or don't allow it to work with warp gates but only if you use gateways to make templar.
On November 04 2011 23:51 RemrafGrez wrote: Old games with khaydarin amulet lasted 40+ minutes and were very close going to one player or the other. See here: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors2/vod/62509
Protoss up 1 base most of game? A gold base ahead for 4 minutes... from 15 minutes till 19 minutes. Harassing with warp prisms. Now SC makes more ghosts, uses snipe or EMP depending on what is better at that point in time. Makes a viking to finally shut down the harass at his main.
Every big engagement goes in favor of Terran I think.
And I don't think you can say SC is better than San, because San beat him earlier in the series when SC tried to do a 1 base all in. SC did beat Oz with a delayed 1/1/1 one base build in game 5. San's PvP seems lacking, but PvT he seems solid... but can't hold on going HT + DT + gateway + warp prism.
Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT?
Sc is way better than San and has been way better than San for a long time...
Cause the 22 best RTS gamers in the entire world just happened to pick terran am i right?
While that would be one of the world's most remarkable coincidences, the chances of that happening are next to nonexistent. Blizzard's complacency and ignorance reminds me of playing CnC Generals, where I'd abuse the hell out of AF and Toxic general, and people would still claim the game is perfectly balanced...
I think it removed all offensive potential of the protoss (push-wise, you can still drop fine).
Explanation: Before, you could push into a terrans defensive stance, he'd have ghosts set up to emp all your templar, missile turrets to kill your obs when it gets close... but at least you can warp in more templar to storm. Now, if you push, you better hope you manage to get a storm off before all your templar get EMP'ed, or else your gateway army gets wasted getting clogged by supply depots, bunkers, and PFs.
My playstyle has become so defensive, because it is easier to split up templars and set up observers. I can for sure feedback a couple ghosts and get off some storms, compared to 0 storm and 0 feedback when I'm on the offensive.
On November 05 2011 00:50 Noocta wrote: Stop with KA seriously.
Warp a templar, wait for energy to storm = produce a ghost/ infestor with energy upgrade
It's the SAME TIME.
That's a terrible comparison because infestors and ghosts are much better units than templars overall.
They're the spellcaster of the other races. Buff templar spells, add another one, but don't bring KA back. Spellcaster shoudl not be able to be produce to instaly use their 75 energy spell. Build time for terran and zerg, energy wanting for toss.
I can't even know how people can think "heh, it wasn'"t this bad ". These kind of people could make you feel like 7 range speed voidray were fine. My gosh.
On November 05 2011 00:50 Noocta wrote: Stop with KA seriously.
Warp a templar, wait for energy to storm = produce a ghost/ infestor with energy upgrade
It's the SAME TIME.
That's a terrible comparison because infestors and ghosts are much better units than templars overall.
They're the spellcaster of the other races. Buff templar spells, add another one, but don't bring KA back. Spellcaster shoudl not be able to be produce to instaly use their 75 energy spell. Build time for terran and zerg, energy wanting for toss.
I can't even know how people can think "heh, it wasn'"t this bad ". These kind of people could make you feel like 7 range speed voidray were fine. My gosh.
You have to consider that p is balanced around having that extra round of units right now, rather than being in the production queue, so in that sense it hurts to not have templars, but you have a good point. The big problem with it is that P is op with KA, and up wihout it in lategame pvt situations, so i don't know how you balance that. I hope they someday just remove warpgates, ff's and make gateway units better, but i have the feeling it's not gonna happen
Well something just doesn't add up. People don't factor in slow movement of HT or reaction time for defense. Everything below in game seconds.
It takes 5 game seconds to warp in a unit from warp gates. It may take you a 2 to 4 game seconds to respond to a base raid anyway (unless you spotted it well beforehand), so more like 7 to 9 (we'll call it 8) seconds to get him on the field. It takes 3.5 seconds to walk the distance of a nexus with a HT after he is warped in. Note you can't warp in next to the drop or you die instantly, so you have to walk. It takes 1 second to cast storm, and storm lasts 4 seconds.
Add those up. You get 8 + 3.5 + 1 + 4 = 16.5 seconds!! It takes longer if you warp further away for safety. You start doing damage with storm at about 12.5 seconds. Longer if you walk further than a nexus, shorter if you saw the drop incoming and reacted before he landed.
It takes about 16 seconds for 2 dropships (16 marines) full of stimmed marines to kill a nexus. 14 seconds for 8 (2 dropships full) stimmed marauders to kill a nexus. 12 seconds for +1 stimmed marines to do the same thing.
So are you telling me unprepared Protoss were killing ANY marines with warped in HT to storm? BS, that is not true and there are your numbers to prove it. Now if the Protoss saw you coming and instantly reacted, he could get HT there soon enough. But every race has ways of dealing with drops if they spot them, so that should be fine.
And note, marauders, even after stimming, have 105 HP so one storm can't kill them. They can sit through the entire 4 seconds of storm and not die even if their medivacs are out of energy or healing another target.
So let me get this straight... even with KA warp ins Terran still have the ability to kill a Nexus... a nexus has MORE HP than any other building in the game!!! Either by being sneaky with marine drops or by just taking the damage with marauder drops.
So no, Protoss have to warp in lots of units to defend a drop. KA warp in Storm being LESS powerful than just warping in a bunch of charge zealots, unless the bio is hidden behind buildings or something.
--------- ---------
Some more fun facts:
8 secs to unload 8 marines from medivac.
8 marines takes about 15 seconds (less if you stim earlier) to unload right next to and kill a HT archives, twilight council, robo support (all have 500 HP/500 SP). Robotics facility only has 450/450 though.
Did you know if you drop marines while the medivac is still moving, they unload spaced apart perfectly so that a psi storm can only hit 2 marines at most? Right click your medivac dropship somewhere, then click the unload command and click on the medivac while it is still moving.
Did you know it takes 19 seconds for a HT to walk from the top right corner of the natural expansion nexus to the top right corner of the main nexus at the bottom position of Shattered Temple?
How long before 20 +1 attack speedlings kill a nexus? l5 seconds.
Are so called KA "warp in storms" good against...
Offense / Raiding Bases: -against spines, cannons, etc. ? No -running away workers? No
Defense: -baneling drops in the middle of your probes? NO -zerglings hold position in the middle of your probes? NO -Red health stimmed bio killing you and all your melee units as they are warped in to defend your base? Yes!! That's fair enough, right?
TL;DR:
A group of stimmed marines can kill a nexus before you can get a HT there if you were not planning for it. That means a group of stimmed marines can kill your HT archives and your twilight council in the time it takes to get HT there to stop them.
That means... warping in HT to storm is not very effective. Chargelots and DTs are more useful.
On November 05 2011 03:15 yakitate304 wrote: Like many others, I think the proper response would be to bring back Amulet but have it only do +15 energy, so you could warp in Templar but they wouldn't immediately have Storms. It would take about 8 seconds to build up to 75 energy, which I think it balanced given that Infestors get an immediate Fungal with their upgrade.
Casters are different. I might as well complain about wanting some kind of anti-energy unit spell on Infestors since both Ghosts and HTs have one.
Besides, I like Starcraft so much in part because the races are truly different.
Now regarding KA, whether it was imbalanced or not I have no idea, but I didn't like it as a spectator. It did seem a bit like paying 150g for a storm, especially since Archons were less useful back then.
On November 05 2011 00:50 Noocta wrote: Stop with KA seriously.
Warp a templar, wait for energy to storm = produce a ghost/ infestor with energy upgrade
It's the SAME TIME.
That's a terrible comparison because infestors and ghosts are much better units than templars overall.
They're the spellcaster of the other races. Buff templar spells, add another one, but don't bring KA back. Spellcaster shoudl not be able to be produce to instaly use their 75 energy spell. Build time for terran and zerg, energy wanting for toss.
I can't even know how people can think "heh, it wasn'"t this bad ". These kind of people could make you feel like 7 range speed voidray were fine. My gosh.
You have to consider that p is balanced around having that extra round of units right now, rather than being in the production queue, so in that sense it hurts to not have templars, but you have a good point. The big problem with it is that P is op with KA, and up wihout it in lategame pvt situations, so i don't know how you balance that. I hope they someday just remove warpgates, ff's and make gateway units better, but i have the feeling it's not gonna happen
I like your post, and it has me thinking.
One way to balance the game would be to give Protoss some way to deal with bio cost efficiently when coming from slightly behind. Colossus don't often work because Terran can overmake vikings if they are slightly ahead.
It should be a unit that does AOE damage but can't be hit by vikings. Now where would I find one of those that can do something and be produced soon enough that it will make a difference? If the old KA was too good and the new naked HT is too bad, why not somewhere in between?! It has only been suggested a million times, but I don't know why Blizzard doesn't consider it.
KA was probably too strong but what about ghosts? They should have been nerfed more already. PvT at the highest level of play seems to favor terran and I wonder how much it would change if KA would be brought back. Terrans would still be dominating at the highest level of play I think.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
If the Terran pulls probes when you start to warp-in you can just cancel it by transforming the prism. In other words, doing damage and just risking a 200 mineral warp prism. If you fly around with HT's in a Warp Prism, there is a good chance it will die with your really expensive HT's inside it. Besides, there are some expansions (usually late-game expansions) where you could warp-in on the high ground behind the base.
What they probably could do to make HT's better again is shorter storm research time and making it a bit cheaper. This would lessen the risk, they have already reduced the reward of going this path. Going back to warp-in HT's with storm is not a good option I think.
wait, you honestly think that ht needs buffing? are you insane? unline emp, storm does actual damage and kills units.
do what the terrans do and do not clump your units if your that scared of emp. not hard.
I would just like to link the interview that TL did with Dustin Browder at blizzcon.:
In this recent interview he talk about(amoug other things) how the removal of KA came to be. And it was pretty clear that KA was at gunpoint already from launch. They were concerned about it being OP but tried it anyway. In retrospec they can now easily see that it was OP and had to go.
So i really don't think it is going to happen. It is seems to be one of the choices that Blizzard is certain about. You might argue that protoss was stronger and still were balanced with KA but it seems that blizzard won't try to balance protoss around it.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
If the Terran pulls probes when you start to warp-in you can just cancel it by transforming the prism. In other words, doing damage and just risking a 200 mineral warp prism. If you fly around with HT's in a Warp Prism, there is a good chance it will die with your really expensive HT's inside it. Besides, there are some expansions (usually late-game expansions) where you could warp-in on the high ground behind the base.
What they probably could do to make HT's better again is shorter storm research time and making it a bit cheaper. This would lessen the risk, they have already reduced the reward of going this path. Going back to warp-in HT's with storm is not a good option I think.
wait, you honestly think that ht needs buffing? are you insane? unline emp, storm does actual damage and kills units.
do what the terrans do and do not clump your units if your that scared of emp. not hard.
Plague didn't kill things in Broodwar either, I guess it must be inferior to Psi Storm and people should just stop clumping things up, not hard right?
On a serious note, HT's certainly don't need buffing more so its other units that need...er..nerfing
Khaydarin amulet was really good for the top level players. The problem was with the lower leagues having a huge difficulty moving units out of storms the instant someone warped a templar in.
Yeah I know, balancing the game among the lower leagues is ridiculous.
On November 05 2011 03:24 Grampz wrote: I've said this before, and it is too damn powerful for THIS game. WARP in with WARP PRISM BUFF is TOO strong. if it was implemented again, now that people use warp prism, you could warp in a storm in your opponents mineral line whenever u want. lolz~!
dude, how do you play this game? are you also worried about burrowed infestors? dt rushes? cloack banshee? i dont know what games you've been playing but storm drops have been around for almost a decade in THIS(starcraft) game.
you idiot, i'm not saying it hasn't been done before, but it would take 0 SKILL to do it.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
If the Terran pulls probes when you start to warp-in you can just cancel it by transforming the prism. In other words, doing damage and just risking a 200 mineral warp prism. If you fly around with HT's in a Warp Prism, there is a good chance it will die with your really expensive HT's inside it. Besides, there are some expansions (usually late-game expansions) where you could warp-in on the high ground behind the base.
What they probably could do to make HT's better again is shorter storm research time and making it a bit cheaper. This would lessen the risk, they have already reduced the reward of going this path. Going back to warp-in HT's with storm is not a good option I think.
wait, you honestly think that ht needs buffing? are you insane? unline emp, storm does actual damage and kills units.
do what the terrans do and do not clump your units if your that scared of emp. not hard.
you can spread all you like, 6-7 ghosts emp'ing will still hit everything - and you can still dodge a storm :D
The issue with the amulet was that it took no thought to pull off, no skills or planning. You simply warped in a templar at whatever pylon was necessary and did a truckton of damage to a clump of the opponents army. Add an endgame situation where both players are floating 1k/1k and you can do that over and over, and eventually you simply kill off the opponents army with just 3-4 templars, because even if they dodged the first storm after a second, they'd still taken a bunch of damage. The issue wasn't that storm was to strong, it was simply amulet in combination with warp ins.
Edit: Here's a personal experience I had fighting a toss endgame with KA still there to illustrate my point.
I killed off his army in a blob v blob battle, and was about to push up into his main to finish him off. All of a sudden I eat two storms on the ramp, and most of my already injured army just melts to two warped in high templars... If the HTs had been there beforehand as a preemptive thing, I'd be fine with it, but it was literally an oh shit-button that did guaranteed damage.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
If the Terran pulls probes when you start to warp-in you can just cancel it by transforming the prism. In other words, doing damage and just risking a 200 mineral warp prism. If you fly around with HT's in a Warp Prism, there is a good chance it will die with your really expensive HT's inside it. Besides, there are some expansions (usually late-game expansions) where you could warp-in on the high ground behind the base.
What they probably could do to make HT's better again is shorter storm research time and making it a bit cheaper. This would lessen the risk, they have already reduced the reward of going this path. Going back to warp-in HT's with storm is not a good option I think.
wait, you honestly think that ht needs buffing? are you insane? unline emp, storm does actual damage and kills units.
do what the terrans do and do not clump your units if your that scared of emp. not hard.
EMP does an instant 100 damage to Protoss, at 10 range with (currently) a 2 AoE. Storm does 80 damage in a 1.5 AoE at 9 range. High Templars cannot cloak. High Templars cannot attack. High Templars are slow as shit. High Templars do not have an energy upgrade, unlike Ghosts.
And yes, it is ridiculously hard to split your army against an invisible foe that can carpet bomb your entire army in a second.
Well something just doesn't add up. People don't factor in slow movement of HT or reaction time for defense. Everything below in game seconds.
It takes 5 game seconds to warp in a unit from warp gates. It may take you a 2 to 4 game seconds to respond to a base raid anyway (unless you spotted it well beforehand), so more like 7 to 9 (we'll call it 8) seconds to get him on the field. It takes 3.5 seconds to walk the distance of a nexus with a HT after he is warped in. Note you can't warp in next to the drop or you die instantly, so you have to walk. It takes 1 second to cast storm, and storm lasts 4 seconds.
Add those up. You get 8 + 3.5 + 1 + 4 = 16.5 seconds!! It takes longer if you warp further away for safety. You start doing damage with storm at about 12.5 seconds. Longer if you walk further than a nexus, shorter if you saw the drop incoming and reacted before he landed.
It takes about 16 seconds for 2 dropships (16 marines) full of stimmed marines to kill a nexus. 14 seconds for 8 (2 dropships full) stimmed marauders to kill a nexus. 12 seconds for +1 stimmed marines to do the same thing.
So are you telling me unprepared Protoss were killing ANY marines with warped in HT to storm? BS, that is not true and there are your numbers to prove it. Now if the Protoss saw you coming and instantly reacted, he could get HT there soon enough. But every race has ways of dealing with drops if they spot them, so that should be fine.
And note, marauders, even after stimming, have 105 HP so one storm can't kill them. They can sit through the entire 4 seconds of storm and not die even if their medivacs are out of energy or healing another target.
So let me get this straight... even with KA warp ins Terran still have the ability to kill a Nexus... a nexus has MORE HP than any other building in the game!!! Either by being sneaky with marine drops or by just taking the damage with marauder drops.
So no, Protoss have to warp in lots of units to defend a drop. KA warp in Storm being LESS powerful than just warping in a bunch of charge zealots, unless the bio is hidden behind buildings or something.
--------- ---------
Some more fun facts:
8 secs to unload 8 marines from medivac.
8 marines takes about 15 seconds (less if you stim earlier) to unload right next to and kill a HT archives, twilight council, robo support (all have 500 HP/500 SP). Robotics facility only has 450/450 though.
Did you know if you drop marines while the medivac is still moving, they unload spaced apart perfectly so that a psi storm can only hit 2 marines at most? Right click your medivac dropship somewhere, then click the unload command and click on the medivac while it is still moving.
Did you know it takes 19 seconds for a HT to walk from the top right corner of the natural expansion nexus to the top right corner of the main nexus at the bottom position of Shattered Temple?
How long before 20 +1 attack speedlings kill a nexus? l5 seconds.
Are so called KA "warp in storms" good against...
Offense / Raiding Bases: -against spines, cannons, etc. ? No -running away workers? No
Defense: -baneling drops in the middle of your probes? NO -zerglings hold position in the middle of your probes? NO -Red health stimmed bio killing you and all your melee units as they are warped in to defend your base? Yes!! That's fair enough, right?
TL;DR:
A group of stimmed marines can kill a nexus before you can get a HT there if you were not planning for it. That means a group of stimmed marines can kill your HT archives and your twilight council in the time it takes to get HT there to stop them.
That means... warping in HT to storm is not very effective. Chargelots and DTs are more useful.
So again, why nerf KA?
They weren't good defensively, sure. But they're hell strong offensively. Warping in a round of HT when you're about to attack so you have a bunch of storms in 5 seconds? You call that balanced? It's only fair that each race has to wait to get their spellcasters OR spellcasters energy. 50 seconds on infestors, added with the pathogen glands too. Ghosts take a while to pop and have an energy upgrade as well. It was just too strong.
Warpin on the high ground on XNC @ the natural 3rd. Dead SCV's/Drones/Probes. Warpin on the low ground on XNC @ the gold. Dead SCV's/Drones/Probes.
No race should be able to instantly create a spellcaster that can use its strongest spell off of the get-go.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
If the Terran pulls probes when you start to warp-in you can just cancel it by transforming the prism. In other words, doing damage and just risking a 200 mineral warp prism. If you fly around with HT's in a Warp Prism, there is a good chance it will die with your really expensive HT's inside it. Besides, there are some expansions (usually late-game expansions) where you could warp-in on the high ground behind the base.
What they probably could do to make HT's better again is shorter storm research time and making it a bit cheaper. This would lessen the risk, they have already reduced the reward of going this path. Going back to warp-in HT's with storm is not a good option I think.
wait, you honestly think that ht needs buffing? are you insane? unline emp, storm does actual damage and kills units.
do what the terrans do and do not clump your units if your that scared of emp. not hard.
Plague didn't kill things in Broodwar either, I guess it must be inferior to Psi Storm and people should just stop clumping things up, not hard right?
On a serious note, HT's certainly don't need buffing more so its other units that need...er..nerfing
HT needs a buff to move speed... if you have HT in your army, you have to move with the speed of a battlecruiser.
it's the most expensive tech of all the casters (ghost/infestor) and yet can't have a move speed of 2.25... Why Blizz??
Well something just doesn't add up. People don't factor in slow movement of HT or reaction time for defense. Everything below in game seconds.
It takes 5 game seconds to warp in a unit from warp gates. It may take you a 2 to 4 game seconds to respond to a base raid anyway (unless you spotted it well beforehand), so more like 7 to 9 (we'll call it 8) seconds to get him on the field. It takes 3.5 seconds to walk the distance of a nexus with a HT after he is warped in. Note you can't warp in next to the drop or you die instantly, so you have to walk. It takes 1 second to cast storm, and storm lasts 4 seconds.
Add those up. You get 8 + 3.5 + 1 + 4 = 16.5 seconds!! It takes longer if you warp further away for safety. You start doing damage with storm at about 12.5 seconds. Longer if you walk further than a nexus, shorter if you saw the drop incoming and reacted before he landed.
It takes about 16 seconds for 2 dropships (16 marines) full of stimmed marines to kill a nexus. 14 seconds for 8 (2 dropships full) stimmed marauders to kill a nexus. 12 seconds for +1 stimmed marines to do the same thing.
So are you telling me unprepared Protoss were killing ANY marines with warped in HT to storm? BS, that is not true and there are your numbers to prove it. Now if the Protoss saw you coming and instantly reacted, he could get HT there soon enough. But every race has ways of dealing with drops if they spot them, so that should be fine.
And note, marauders, even after stimming, have 105 HP so one storm can't kill them. They can sit through the entire 4 seconds of storm and not die even if their medivacs are out of energy or healing another target.
So let me get this straight... even with KA warp ins Terran still have the ability to kill a Nexus... a nexus has MORE HP than any other building in the game!!! Either by being sneaky with marine drops or by just taking the damage with marauder drops.
So no, Protoss have to warp in lots of units to defend a drop. KA warp in Storm being LESS powerful than just warping in a bunch of charge zealots, unless the bio is hidden behind buildings or something.
--------- ---------
Some more fun facts:
8 secs to unload 8 marines from medivac.
8 marines takes about 15 seconds (less if you stim earlier) to unload right next to and kill a HT archives, twilight council, robo support (all have 500 HP/500 SP). Robotics facility only has 450/450 though.
Did you know if you drop marines while the medivac is still moving, they unload spaced apart perfectly so that a psi storm can only hit 2 marines at most? Right click your medivac dropship somewhere, then click the unload command and click on the medivac while it is still moving.
Did you know it takes 19 seconds for a HT to walk from the top right corner of the natural expansion nexus to the top right corner of the main nexus at the bottom position of Shattered Temple?
How long before 20 +1 attack speedlings kill a nexus? l5 seconds.
Are so called KA "warp in storms" good against...
Offense / Raiding Bases: -against spines, cannons, etc. ? No -running away workers? No
Defense: -baneling drops in the middle of your probes? NO -zerglings hold position in the middle of your probes? NO -Red health stimmed bio killing you and all your melee units as they are warped in to defend your base? Yes!! That's fair enough, right?
TL;DR:
A group of stimmed marines can kill a nexus before you can get a HT there if you were not planning for it. That means a group of stimmed marines can kill your HT archives and your twilight council in the time it takes to get HT there to stop them.
That means... warping in HT to storm is not very effective. Chargelots and DTs are more useful.
So again, why nerf KA?
They weren't good defensively, sure. But they're hell strong offensively. Warping in a round of HT when you're about to attack so you have a bunch of storms in 5 seconds? You call that balanced? It's only fair that each race has to wait to get their spellcasters OR spellcasters energy. 50 seconds on infestors, added with the pathogen glands too. Ghosts take a while to pop and have an energy upgrade as well. It was just too strong.
Warpin on the high ground on XNC @ the natural 3rd. Dead SCV's/Drones/Probes. Warpin on the low ground on XNC @ the gold. Dead SCV's/Drones/Probes.
No race should be able to instantly create a spellcaster that can use its strongest spell off of the get-go.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but it's not exactly comparable. For one thing, Protoss is also the only race that has to upgrade its best attack. High Templar do not come with PsiStorm, which seems to be something a lot of people are forgetting. Ghosts come with EMP, Infestors come with Fungal Growth. Those two have to get an upgrade that allows them to cast it right away when they come out, while teching to High Templar takes the longest even without having to upgrade PsiStorm. The drawbacks for teching as Protoss are fairly significant.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
What about an infestor drop? It does the same only there is no escape.
Shush! You must know by now that one can only complain and want to nerf T and P harrassment options (bf hellions and templar). Insta killing entire mineral lines baneling drops and infestor oh btw you cant get away even if you did spot me pop up (oh yeah cause i can get to your worker line burrowed btw) must not be mentioned! :D
Personally i hated KA, nerfing emp and looking to buff other elements of toss (gateway) units is the better way to go imo.
I agree with you only in the context that "nerfing emp and looking to buff other elements of toss units" is a correct path now, but I really think they should never have removed KA, why not just nerf it, the problem was INSTANT storms right(as that is the primary Terran complaint)? Nerfing KA would have removed that issue. God that decision really screwed the pooch down the line lol.
On November 05 2011 04:15 Oreo7 wrote: It made it so 2-3 emps couldn't make the terran win the game out right. As it is, protoss can't really reinforce armies with anything but zeals.
they are getting battle hellions so they counter the last unit protoss has in pvt, colossi is very very easy countered, and force antiair like stalkers which against mmmghost is seriously nothing
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
If the Terran pulls probes when you start to warp-in you can just cancel it by transforming the prism. In other words, doing damage and just risking a 200 mineral warp prism. If you fly around with HT's in a Warp Prism, there is a good chance it will die with your really expensive HT's inside it. Besides, there are some expansions (usually late-game expansions) where you could warp-in on the high ground behind the base.
What they probably could do to make HT's better again is shorter storm research time and making it a bit cheaper. This would lessen the risk, they have already reduced the reward of going this path. Going back to warp-in HT's with storm is not a good option I think.
wait, you honestly think that ht needs buffing? are you insane? unline emp, storm does actual damage and kills units.
do what the terrans do and do not clump your units if your that scared of emp. not hard.
EMP does an instant 100 damage to Protoss, at 10 range with (currently) a 2 AoE. Storm does 80 damage in a 1.5 AoE at 9 range. High Templars cannot cloak. High Templars cannot attack. High Templars are slow as shit. High Templars do not have an energy upgrade, unlike Ghosts.
And yes, it is ridiculously hard to split your army against an invisible foe that can carpet bomb your entire army in a second.
you forgot that storm deals its damage over time also terran has medivacs which heal all the bio at a decent rate just like how protoss shields regen, emp cant outright kill a unit but if used with a bio army after a carpet bomb of emps then the P just has no chance due to having a half health no energy army vs a full force stimmed marine marauder medivac ghost viking force all the P can do is warpin a ton of chargelots and hope that the armies are traded evenly (a bad thing for P due to how long it takes for colossi to be created)
I don't think that KA needs to return, but templars definitely need to be a bit more capable in rough, particularly scrappy situations. They need a movement buff or a weak attack or SOMETHING. I would be happy with either a return to the walking speed of 2.25 (zealot, colossus, sentry etc) OR a small attack. Ghosts can cloak, they keep pace with unstimmed bio, and they can attack, or snipe while cloaked assuming there's enough energy (and in HoTS, cloak wont deplete energy so it will be easier to snipe while cloaked). Infestors can burrow-move and they can also launch infested terrans to buy time or defend themselves.
HT are just absolutely HELPLESS alone, they have absolutely no option to defend themselves from ANYTHING. Imagine seeing 2 HT roam the map trying to find something to feedback. It's never EVER going to happen, yet you have almost every tvp, tvz, zvp, zvz, and zvt where cloaked ghosts or burrowed infestors are making a move on the map, alone, landing key game changing spells.
You can't call it "racial diversity" when its nothing more than a direct weakness, and Blizzard cannot balance a game unit-for-unit, by food cost, DPS, build time, etc (as they are doing) without giving similar options to all races.
On November 05 2011 04:46 kyarisan wrote: I don't think that KA needs to return, but templars definitely need to be a bit more capable in rough, particularly scrappy situations. They need a movement buff or a weak attack or SOMETHING. I would be happy with either a return to the walking speed of 2.25 (zealot, colossus, sentry etc) OR a small attack. Ghosts can cloak, they keep pace with unstimmed bio, and they can attack, or snipe while cloaked assuming there's enough energy (and in HoTS, cloak wont deplete energy so it will be easier to snipe while cloaked). Infestors can burrow-move and they can also launch infested terrans to buy time or defend themselves.
HT are just absolutely HELPLESS alone, they have absolutely no option to defend themselves from ANYTHING. Imagine seeing 2 HT roam the map trying to find something to feedback. It's never EVER going to happen, yet you have almost every tvp, tvz, zvp, zvz, and zvt where cloaked ghosts or burrowed infestors are making a move on the map, alone, landing key game changing spells.
You can't call it "racial diversity" when its nothing more than a direct weakness, and Blizzard cannot balance a game unit-for-unit, by food cost, DPS, build time, etc (as they are doing) without giving similar options to all races.
2.25 move speed and 63/faster regen energy upgrade, thats it! do it blizzardTT
amulet wouldn't change anything currently, as the hts would simple get sniped away. instant spells (fungal can count as one too) that have higher range then a dot spell is just bad. So they should simply reduce fungal and emp to range 8 and keep the 2 range radius. that would get rid of the only problem toss has. Opponents casters in front, while theirs that are slower have to be behind or atleast within the army, so there is no way to stop opponent casters with their casts from affecting the army. Radius of 1,5 (fungal should follow soon) is still the same range, and won't remove the chance of the opponent casters being in front of the army, as they can tank a storm. Now hts will be able to go in front of the army and storm the casters moving in, problem is that they can tank it but a faster double storm + archon more works. radius 1.5 is really weak though when you attack. So caster vs caster will look like tvt.
Amulet won't come back anyway, but its not the current problem. Its the ability of the other races to abuse a range 0.5 advantage on instant spells(since fungal stops movement when you outrange something it could be counted as an instant spell), allowing the opponent casters to be in front of the army, while toss can't. (most also try feedback instead of storm most of the times, biggest mistake you can do) That way hts can't protect the army. The problem though a full ghost barrage on the whole toss army is deadly, chained fungals are deadly. And one storm hitting under 100 hp units full (which is hard to avoid in 200 supply vs 200 supply) is deadly. That is one storm compared to 4 fungals or 4 emps. And a storm barrage on for example a bio or stacked air army is instant death with no losses for the toss. So yeah storm should be harder to get on the opponents army. But at the moment its just to hard on pro level. On noob level you just have to drop 1 templar at a time with your prism and storm and win. So a buff to hts isn't really needed :3. Just a change making micro against them harder
Sc is way better than San and has been way better than San for a long time...
Hey Jinro, your sentiments back then were largely what Protoss' really agreed with, a Nerf would be way more appropriate. You guessed that it would screw with P, and it did, what has changed from then till now? P has gone to crap, can you really argue against this? It makes for such interesting and fun games (shit it makes em pretty balanced in the fact that Protoss has a change against an equal Terran opponent). I dunno Jinro you're really flippy floppy.
On February 26 2011 15:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I think this change is gonna be too big, P needs at least the old BW upgrade back (+50 mana, starts with 63 mana instead of 50).
With HTs starting at 50, its like you cant even warp them in in advance vs units in the middle of the map. Its a bit extreme that you can just warp them in as you spot the dropship unloading in your base, but they need something.
Yes Jinro, you thought right, "this change [was] too big."
This was from the removal announcement 8 months ago. Even then we questioned that removal, it was out of the blue, they should nerfed colossus, etc. Both terran and Zerg would have liked that, and the fun dynamics of HT play would have emerged, but Blizzard didn't even foster that. It was an unnecessary-COMPLETE removal then I thought, and as it turns out, yea it was unnecessary, that's why Protoss has such terrible success rates these days.
On November 05 2011 01:46 SupLilSon wrote:
Ok, w.e don't believe Jinro, a player who probably has 100% more experience and knowledge with both those players... I'm not gonna argue who is better and who is not.
SupLilSon, no no no, you have it wrong. Jinro is a player who has probaby has more experience and knowledge, and i'm not gonna argue who is better and who is not, Jinro knows more than I ever will, which is why we Protoss agreed with his sentiments, anything else?
I think this change is gonna be too big, P needs at least the old BW upgrade back (+50 mana, starts with 63 mana instead of 50).
With HTs starting at 50, its like you cant even warp them in in advance vs units in the middle of the map.
Terrans were a lot shittier back then. If they played like they do now, with KA around, they'd do fine. Because Terrans engage properly now, use EMPs properly, get adequate ghosts. Blizzard failed this period, they should have let KA play out, they never even saw it in action against a REAL-Terran of today (ala MMA, MvP, etc).
On November 05 2011 01:16 Logros wrote: I actually haven't seen any games where KA was so OP, especially against Terran. Yes it's strong but without it Protoss has really been struggling.
Exactly, no one saw KA as completly OP back then, because it wasn't, Colossus was the issue. Even with KA still in effect, Terran still win easily, back then T just didn't use many ghosts, everyone saw. As soon as Koreans implemented more T rates have skyrocketed. Putting KA back in still wouldn't balance Terran agains Toss, as blizzard said they are the most complete race.
On November 05 2011 04:15 Shaok wrote: Khaydarin amulet was really good for the top level players. The problem was with the lower leagues having a huge difficulty moving units out of storms the instant someone warped a templar in.
Yeah I know, balancing the game among the lower leagues is ridiculous.
This is honestly what I think they did it for. Which makes me... very unhappy to say the least.
On November 05 2011 04:15 Shaok wrote: Khaydarin amulet was really good for the top level players. The problem was with the lower leagues having a huge difficulty moving units out of storms the instant someone warped a templar in.
Yeah I know, balancing the game among the lower leagues is ridiculous.
This is honestly what I think they did it for. Which makes me... very unhappy to say the least.
Laugh out loud, actually that seems a bit plausible, but I don't think they did it because of that. Did Blizzard assume no one was going to get better at unit control/microing? Skill across leagues have gone up, pretty hard to dispute. (cept GM luls) Reminds me of the argument Storm can kill "50 MM units!!!!!" and "EMP kills nothing." I wish my storm could kill 50MM units lol, which they do only when a Terran stands under it for the full duration while macroing or some shit lol what kind of argument is that Terrans, try harder.
On November 05 2011 04:46 kyarisan wrote: I don't think that KA needs to return, but templars definitely need to be a bit more capable in rough, particularly scrappy situations. They need a movement buff or a weak attack or SOMETHING. I would be happy with either a return to the walking speed of 2.25 (zealot, colossus, sentry etc) OR a small attack. Ghosts can cloak, they keep pace with unstimmed bio, and they can attack, or snipe while cloaked assuming there's enough energy (and in HoTS, cloak wont deplete energy so it will be easier to snipe while cloaked). Infestors can burrow-move and they can also launch infested terrans to buy time or defend themselves.
HT are just absolutely HELPLESS alone, they have absolutely no option to defend themselves from ANYTHING. Imagine seeing 2 HT roam the map trying to find something to feedback. It's never EVER going to happen, yet you have almost every tvp, tvz, zvp, zvz, and zvt where cloaked ghosts or burrowed infestors are making a move on the map, alone, landing key game changing spells.
You can't call it "racial diversity" when its nothing more than a direct weakness, and Blizzard cannot balance a game unit-for-unit, by food cost, DPS, build time, etc (as they are doing) without giving similar options to all races.
This I hope noone will try to argue with. HT need some love to be more usable and more fun. Simple as that. Speed to 2.25 or something is critical at this juncture if KA is never to see the light of day again.
KA removal was good because it was rather abusive, but I don't get why they didn't compensate for HTs afterwards. I mean, why keep the storm upgrade? Infestors and ghosts don't need emp or fungal upgrade.
Also, could you imagine warping in storm drops with the new warp prism with KA? Jesus.
On November 05 2011 03:24 Grampz wrote: I've said this before, and it is too damn powerful for THIS game. WARP in with WARP PRISM BUFF is TOO strong. if it was implemented again, now that people use warp prism, you could warp in a storm in your opponents mineral line whenever u want. lolz~!
dude, how do you play this game? are you also worried about burrowed infestors? dt rushes? cloack banshee? i dont know what games you've been playing but storm drops have been around for almost a decade in THIS(starcraft) game.
you idiot, i'm not saying it hasn't been done before, but it would take 0 SKILL to do it.
firstly, fuck you for the "idiot" comment. secondly, what do you exactly mean by zero skill because i dont see the relation between drop and skill. drops can be stopped if they're seen by any race and attempting a drop is similar throughout all races.
if you're talking about potential damage by ht warp in storms, how is that different than just dropping templars already with energy? are you saying dropping templars take more skills than warping in templars? or there's more risk if ht's are loaded on the prism, and therefore that equates to more skill?
and do tell what you mean by "whenever" and how is that different than any other type of drops?
I am wondering why there is so much whine about TvP. We are in EU / NA right? Am I the only one who doesn't see terrans dominating here? EU and NA have 50 terrans in GM this season. Both protoss and zergs win tournaments. I really don't see a problem. In Korea there might be a small problem, but only in the GSL code S imo. Grandmaster korea has around 70 terrans, so that doesn't point towards imbalance. I see protoss and zerg players winning tournaments in korea.
as a protoss player, and regardless of balance, i found the removal of KA made using hts way more fun. Before they were more or less expendable in the late game, now u actaully have to control them. That said, when u compare the pros and cons of ghosts vs hts it becomes pretty clear which side has the advantage.
I have been a proponent of giving the HT something to make up for the complete removal. (well first I wanted them just to reduce the amount of +energy) But a few things that I think would really help out: HT movement speed increase. No research for storm. Every other caster comes with 2 spells without research. Why the hell does our HT (which is already the shittiest) only come with 1? Just enough HP to not die so quickly to snipe. Snipe out ranges feedback and with the slow movement speed it is way too easy for terrans to snipe any HT that a protoss player moves into position.
I am wondering why there is so much whine about TvP. We are in EU / NA right? Am I the only one who doesn't see terrans dominating here? EU and NA have 50 terrans in GM this season. Both protoss and zergs win tournaments. I really don't see a problem. In Korea there might be a small problem, but only in the GSL code S imo. Grandmaster korea has around 70 terrans, so that doesn't point towards imbalance. I see protoss and zerg players winning tournaments in korea.
Undeniable: Outside of Korea we have seen no sign of terran imba. Where are the eu & american T tournament victories? Select won the blizzard invitational america recently. What else?
On November 05 2011 07:46 me_viet wrote: those graphs, if anything shows that ZvT needs to be fixed. Biggest w/l difference at ~17%
edit: herp derp
Ya. But if anything, those graphs shows that the game may be balanced at lower levels (plat, diam, master) but at higher levels (gm/pros/korea), the game is not even close to be balanced : (
On November 04 2011 23:53 ZeromuS wrote: Im not sure if KA made for a more balanced game but it presents us with a BW situation. Where one thing is really strong for one race the other race has a similarly strong spell/thing which provided for very very interesting back and forth situations.
I used to liken KA to a planetary fortress. If you are going to attack my base you damn well better know it and be prepared for an attack - not just sending small numbers of units.
Except that protoss was more near 50% W:L with it (not over either, under) and once it was taken away it went down and down?
I am wondering why there is so much whine about TvP. We are in EU / NA right? Am I the only one who doesn't see terrans dominating here? EU and NA have 50 terrans in GM this season. Both protoss and zergs win tournaments. I really don't see a problem. In Korea there might be a small problem, but only in the GSL code S imo. Grandmaster korea has around 70 terrans, so that doesn't point towards imbalance. I see protoss and zerg players winning tournaments in korea.
These stats are fishy as hell. Everyone who follows the tournaments knows that terrans are not dominating. There is only 1 tournament where terrans dominate and that is code S GSL. Why do we see these graphs? Look around you, check the tournaments, see it with your own eyes.
On November 05 2011 07:46 me_viet wrote: those graphs, if anything shows that ZvT needs to be fixed. Biggest w/l difference at ~17%
edit: herp derp
Ya. But if anything, those graphs shows that the game may be balanced at lower levels (plat, diam, master) but at higher levels (gm/pros/korea), the game is not even close to be balanced : (
Check my ladder stats. The game is pretty much balanced in gm / master.
I think that it can be agreed that the only MU where KA made a difference was PvT. This means that bringing it back would only really have balance repercussions in PvT.
Back when it was removed, ghosts were almost non-existent in PvT, possibly because of their old cost (150/150), but also because terrans didn't really know how to use them.
Now, with the increased ghost usage, I don't think that KA would be overpowered for several reasons:
1. With ghosts being able to be made in greater numbers due to their cost, there should always be some remaining after a large engagement, meaning that P can't just use infinite HTs since they can be sniped/EMPed whilst warping.
2. Having to spend 150 gas per storm would mean that the P would have an almost exclusively zealot/archon/HT army. This can be seen in the original San vs sC game. Dealing with such a rigid composition should be fairly straight forwards for any player, regardless of race. (Theory craft: mass hellions?)
3. Although warp-in storms were powerful drop defence, it cost 150 gas per storm, with about 3 storms needed to clean-up a drop normally. This is far more expensive than a planetary or spines/spores, especially for the gas dependent protoss army.
4. Warp-in storms were sometimes used for harass of worker lines. However in the vast majority of these cases the damage was only done because the defender didn't move their workers, or didn't respond to the red dot on their minimap fast enough. Again, this also cost 150 gas per storm, whereas a baneling drop (which can chase workers) costs 100 gas, and hellions cost no gas (and can also chase workers).
TL;DR: The only reason that KA was powerful was because opponents dealt with HTs badly.
On November 05 2011 07:59 CortoMontez wrote: TL;DR: The only reason that KA was powerful was because opponents dealt with HTs badly.
It's funny you say that, you and everyone else going on about how the only reason KA was to powerful was because the opponents weren't fighting it properly.
I am wondering why there is so much whine about TvP. We are in EU / NA right? Am I the only one who doesn't see terrans dominating here? EU and NA have 50 terrans in GM this season. Both protoss and zergs win tournaments. I really don't see a problem. In Korea there might be a small problem, but only in the GSL code S imo. Grandmaster korea has around 70 terrans, so that doesn't point towards imbalance. I see protoss and zerg players winning tournaments in korea.
These stats are fishy as hell. Everyone who follows the tournaments knows that terrans are not dominating. There is only 1 tournament where terrans dominate and that is code S GSL. Why do we see these graphs? Look around you, check the tournaments, see it with your own eyes.
Have you really watched every single tournament played daily? Every single round? If so, you have a lot more free time than me.
But if the argument is that the game should be balanced at the highest level, then GSL code S having such a dominant Terran presence SHOULD be worrying.
On November 05 2011 06:33 Snowbear wrote: I am wondering why there is so much whine about TvP. We are in EU / NA right? Am I the only one who doesn't see terrans dominating here? EU and NA have 50 terrans in GM this season. Both protoss and zergs win tournaments. I really don't see a problem. In Korea there might be a small problem, but only in the GSL code S imo. Grandmaster korea has around 70 terrans, so that doesn't point towards imbalance. I see protoss and zerg players winning tournaments in korea.
maybe im being an ignorant terran here, but isn't the problem with late game tvp that i can blanket EMP every single one of your units, not the fact that your Templar don't have the energy to begin with?
This is just me coming up with an idea off the top of my head, if it's bad I blame it solely on being really tired Blizzard could try and add KA back in to the game, and then make it so that HT's are built from the Templar Archives instead of the gateways, that way they would be more in line with how the infestor and ghost are, they could possibly buff feedback as well since snipe/infested terran imo are better
I don't know why there's no discussion about how bad the Korean Protoss play style is. Protoss strength is late game, yet the Korean Protoss are the cheesiest players on the planet. Hongun, Genius, Tassadar, Alicia, even MC at times can't help himself and uses some crappy void-ray or DT garbage. Its a pandemic.
A bunch of upgraded charge-Lots in a Max v Max battle - TvP - is a nightmare. Marauders do nothing vs them, marines die to any Colossus or storm, EMP isn't that effective vs Charge-Lots, and you have to kite your bio from the C-Lots leaving your Vikings to die to any Stalkers/Archons before the Colossus die.
Its so much a pain in the ass Blizzard is introducing a new unit (Battle Hellion) to help this problem specifically. MC demolished MVP in this exact situation on Wednesday night, yet the very next game he All-Inned off of 2 base and got crushed. Go figure.
I'm not saying "Protoss is fine, just play better" - I do believe they have some weaknesses that need to be addressed. KA not one of them. But for #@$^ sake, they can at least stop with the stupid shit and at least try and play to the strength of the race.
On November 05 2011 08:32 mlspmatt wrote: I don't know why there's no discussion about how bad the Korean Protoss play style is. Protoss strength is late game, yet the Korean Protoss are the cheesiest players on the planet. Hongun, Genius, Tassadar, Alicia, even MC at times can't help himself and uses some crappy void-ray or DT garbage. Its a pandemic.
A bunch of upgraded charge-Lots in a Max v Max battle - TvP - is a nightmare. Marauders do nothing vs them, marines die to any Colossus or storm, EMP isn't that effective vs Charge-Lots, and you have to kite your bio from the C-Lots leaving your Vikings to die to any Stalkers/Archons before the Colossus die.
Its so much a pain in the ass Blizzard is introducing a new unit (Battle Hellion) to help this problem specifically. MC demolished MVP in this exact situation on Wednesday night, yet the very next game he All-Inned off of 2 base and got crushed. Go figure.
I'm not saying "Protoss is fine, just play better" - I do believe they have some weaknesses that need to be addressed. KA not one of them. But for #@$^ sake, they can at least stop with the stupid shit and at least try and play to the strength of the race.
This is a good point. Can't actually see any korean 'toss that is "macro oriented".The closest one is actually HuK, and he's better than all of those (atm). But I still think HT are underpowered compared to the other races casters. A usability buff would be enough I think; KA would overpower them again - although it's mostly against Terran so I got no problem with that ;D, but David Kim would
Completely irrelevant for any imbalance that may or may not exist in the current version of the game - KA was fucking stupid. Warp in storms were retarded, and anyone who couldn't see that simply wanted to have an advantage, not a balanced game.
On November 05 2011 08:32 mlspmatt wrote: I don't know why there's no discussion about how bad the Korean Protoss play style is. Protoss strength is late game, yet the Korean Protoss are the cheesiest players on the planet. Hongun, Genius, Tassadar, Alicia, even MC at times can't help himself and uses some crappy void-ray or DT garbage. Its a pandemic.
A bunch of upgraded charge-Lots in a Max v Max battle - TvP - is a nightmare. Marauders do nothing vs them, marines die to any Colossus or storm, EMP isn't that effective vs Charge-Lots, and you have to kite your bio from the C-Lots leaving your Vikings to die to any Stalkers/Archons before the Colossus die.
Its so much a pain in the ass Blizzard is introducing a new unit (Battle Hellion) to help this problem specifically. MC demolished MVP in this exact situation on Wednesday night, yet the very next game he All-Inned off of 2 base and got crushed. Go figure.
I'm not saying "Protoss is fine, just play better" - I do believe they have some weaknesses that need to be addressed. KA not one of them. But for #@$^ sake, they can at least stop with the stupid shit and at least try and play to the strength of the race.
This is one of the most ignorant posts I've ever read on this website, ever. You're trying to act like you understand the game, but clearly, you don't.
blizzard was stupid. The game was balanced with KA. Toss was near 50% winrate, games were 10x much more fun to watch with all the constant back and forth type action. drops are way to devastating to toss these days. Even when KA was in, the first 2 gsl champions were zerg, and protoss were struggling in the GSL until MC came in, and even then most of his games won were really strong cheeses. After they took out KA, they had ALL sorts of balanced problems, protoss winrates dropped hard in korea.
On November 05 2011 08:32 mlspmatt wrote: I don't know why there's no discussion about how bad the Korean Protoss play style is. Protoss strength is late game, yet the Korean Protoss are the cheesiest players on the planet. Hongun, Genius, Tassadar, Alicia, even MC at times can't help himself and uses some crappy void-ray or DT garbage. Its a pandemic.
Protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out, or broodlord/infestor for the other MU. The idea that Protoss is strong in the late game is a myth created earlier in the game's life when people didn't know anything really.
Protoss players are cheesy because *nothing else works*. Simple as that. The race is just a bit shitty.
On November 05 2011 08:03 me_viet wrote: But if the argument is that the game should be balanced at the highest level, then GSL code S having such a dominant Terran presence SHOULD be worrying.
Code S had a shitty tournament structure that didn't allow for a lot of change.
Add to that terran stability, early dominance during the beginnings of SC2 and simply more and/or better players and you have a recipe for GomTvT.
On November 05 2011 08:32 mlspmatt wrote: I don't know why there's no discussion about how bad the Korean Protoss play style is. Protoss strength is late game, yet the Korean Protoss are the cheesiest players on the planet. Hongun, Genius, Tassadar, Alicia, even MC at times can't help himself and uses some crappy void-ray or DT garbage. Its a pandemic.
Protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out, or broodlord/infestor for the other MU. The idea that Protoss is strong in the late game is a myth created earlier in the game's life when people didn't know anything really.
Protoss players are cheesy because *nothing else works*. Simple as that. The race is just a bit shitty.
Guess what. In a couple of months the "protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out" is going to be a myth, just the same way.
On November 05 2011 08:46 Dalavita wrote: Guess what. In a couple of months the "protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out" is going to be a myth, just the same way.
It's called metagame.
Maybe. Because they're being nerfed. That's not called metagame.
On November 05 2011 08:46 Dalavita wrote: Guess what. In a couple of months the "protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out" is going to be a myth, just the same way.
It's called metagame.
Maybe. Because they're being nerfed. That's not called metagame.
On November 05 2011 08:46 Dalavita wrote: Guess what. In a couple of months the "protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out" is going to be a myth, just the same way.
It's called metagame.
Maybe. Because they're being nerfed. That's not called metagame.
Bad players will argue that indeed.
Protoss has no way of dealing with ghosts, this is nothing new. If they stop obliterating every toss player in the world, it will only be because they got nerfed.
Apparently Blizzard agrees with me since, yknow, they're nerfing them.
KA was imba, because you could warp in anywhere. Maybe it shifted the balance but it's for the better and I'm glad blizzard is trying to balance around the removal rather than put KA back in and expect things all races to get 50% win rate. No KA was broken, instant warp in and storming an army was a huge problem, once protoss got to that level with storm and KA they were extremely hard to bust and almost impossible to beat as terran. Yea we see more ghost play now a days but the EMP nerf is going to be fine.
Immortal buff was necessary, Acrhon buff was as well, all of those fixes were to help PvP. I don't know what other kind of drastic changes you might be thinking about, but this game has evolved past KA and it won't return.
I honestly think these statistics people are throwing out are a bit out of the blue, I dont see Terrans dominating anything else then code S atm, evry other tournament is divided between TZP pretty equally it seems. And due to the stale nature of GSL and the many Terrans that got into GSL in the early days due to smaller maps and better 1 base play I am not so surpriced to see more terrans in GSL. But I do believe evryone need to step back and just play the game more. And remember that mapchoises and map pools affect results alot also...
On November 05 2011 08:46 Dalavita wrote: Guess what. In a couple of months the "protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out" is going to be a myth, just the same way.
It's called metagame.
Maybe. Because they're being nerfed. That's not called metagame.
Bad players will argue that indeed.
Bad players will argue that ghosts being nerfed makes them easier to deal with?
On November 05 2011 08:46 Dalavita wrote: Guess what. In a couple of months the "protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out" is going to be a myth, just the same way.
It's called metagame.
Maybe. Because they're being nerfed. That's not called metagame.
Bad players will argue that indeed.
Protoss has no way of dealing with ghosts, this is nothing new. If they stop obliterating every toss player in the world, it will only be because they got nerfed.
Apparently Blizzard agrees with me since, yknow, they're nerfing them.
Yea, nothing Protoss has can kill a ghost. They are invincible against chargelots and colossi especially. Their attacks just bounce off the ghost armor!
I still think they should put back in a reworked amulet - one that regenerates energy at a quicker rate. This is for two reasons: first is that I think most people generally agree that templar needs some sort of buff, and this upgrade is different from the other two casters so its good in terms of 'racial diversity.'
But more importantly, I think it adds more strategic decision making elements to the game, I mean right now, when you see a protoss use up templar energy with storm you see them instantly morphing into an archon. I would like it so that its feasible to sometimes instead choose to remain in templar form and wait for energy to recharge again, just pressing [T] followed up by [C] instantly everytime without hesitation makes the game less fun since there's no thought process behind it imo.
Y isnt this thread closed yet? Its so stupid people pulling out this topic again. KA was so strong back then, a p with 4 bases can simply spam hts then spam storms after losing an engagement and turn the tides around. but i do agree that it was too much a nerf, thats y they nerfed ghost too, only to remove 100 shields, and now nerfing the radius. I would like to see them buffing feedback range by 1 though, it would make up a more challenging micro war in TvP. But overall I see that being a btr solution than have KA not been removed.
On November 05 2011 08:32 mlspmatt wrote: I don't know why there's no discussion about how bad the Korean Protoss play style is. Protoss strength is late game, yet the Korean Protoss are the cheesiest players on the planet. Hongun, Genius, Tassadar, Alicia, even MC at times can't help himself and uses some crappy void-ray or DT garbage. Its a pandemic.
Protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out, or broodlord/infestor for the other MU. The idea that Protoss is strong in the late game is a myth created earlier in the game's life when people didn't know anything really.
Protoss players are cheesy because *nothing else works*. Simple as that. The race is just a bit shitty.
That argument panned out real well against Terrans back in the Steppes of War days too. However, Terrans got nerfed (directly and indirectly) into having to play more macro oriented play styles. Those same map changes that forced Terran to rethink early game had little effect on warp-in Protoss, nor did any balance changes really affect Protoss early game aggressive options. Face it, Protoss are able to win a lot with gimmick play and tend to focus on that style, especially in Korea.
On November 05 2011 08:32 mlspmatt wrote: I don't know why there's no discussion about how bad the Korean Protoss play style is. Protoss strength is late game, yet the Korean Protoss are the cheesiest players on the planet. Hongun, Genius, Tassadar, Alicia, even MC at times can't help himself and uses some crappy void-ray or DT garbage. Its a pandemic.
Protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out, or broodlord/infestor for the other MU. The idea that Protoss is strong in the late game is a myth created earlier in the game's life when people didn't know anything really.
Protoss players are cheesy because *nothing else works*. Simple as that. The race is just a bit shitty.
That argument panned out real well against Terrans back in the Steppes of War days too. However, Terrans got nerfed (directly and indirectly) into having to play more macro oriented play styles. Those same map changes that forced Terran to rethink early game had little effect on warp-in Protoss, nor did any balance changes really affect Protoss early game aggressive options. Face it, Protoss are able to win a lot with gimmick play and tend to focus on that style, especially in Korea.
On November 05 2011 08:32 mlspmatt wrote: I don't know why there's no discussion about how bad the Korean Protoss play style is. Protoss strength is late game, yet the Korean Protoss are the cheesiest players on the planet. Hongun, Genius, Tassadar, Alicia, even MC at times can't help himself and uses some crappy void-ray or DT garbage. Its a pandemic.
Protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out, or broodlord/infestor for the other MU. The idea that Protoss is strong in the late game is a myth created earlier in the game's life when people didn't know anything really.
Protoss players are cheesy because *nothing else works*. Simple as that. The race is just a bit shitty.
That argument panned out real well against Terrans back in the Steppes of War days too. However, Terrans got nerfed (directly and indirectly) into having to play more macro oriented play styles. Those same map changes that forced Terran to rethink early game had little effect on warp-in Protoss, nor did any balance changes really affect Protoss early game aggressive options. Face it, Protoss are able to win a lot with gimmick play and tend to focus on that style, especially in Korea.
Amen to this.
so you agree that the current Protoss design is shit and needs a revamp.
weaker timing pushes and more end game capabilities?!
On November 05 2011 08:32 mlspmatt wrote: I don't know why there's no discussion about how bad the Korean Protoss play style is. Protoss strength is late game, yet the Korean Protoss are the cheesiest players on the planet. Hongun, Genius, Tassadar, Alicia, even MC at times can't help himself and uses some crappy void-ray or DT garbage. Its a pandemic.
Protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out, or broodlord/infestor for the other MU. The idea that Protoss is strong in the late game is a myth created earlier in the game's life when people didn't know anything really.
Protoss players are cheesy because *nothing else works*. Simple as that. The race is just a bit shitty.
That argument panned out real well against Terrans back in the Steppes of War days too. However, Terrans got nerfed (directly and indirectly) into having to play more macro oriented play styles. Those same map changes that forced Terran to rethink early game had little effect on warp-in Protoss, nor did any balance changes really affect Protoss early game aggressive options. Face it, Protoss are able to win a lot with gimmick play and tend to focus on that style, especially in Korea.
Wow you are dense, you are just confirming what Yaotzin said. Toss is so garbage they are pigeonholed in to gimmicky shit. "Nothing else works." An entire race has to be based around all-ins to win? What kind of balance is that.
On November 05 2011 08:32 mlspmatt wrote: I don't know why there's no discussion about how bad the Korean Protoss play style is. Protoss strength is late game, yet the Korean Protoss are the cheesiest players on the planet. Hongun, Genius, Tassadar, Alicia, even MC at times can't help himself and uses some crappy void-ray or DT garbage. Its a pandemic.
Protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out, or broodlord/infestor for the other MU. The idea that Protoss is strong in the late game is a myth created earlier in the game's life when people didn't know anything really.
Protoss players are cheesy because *nothing else works*. Simple as that. The race is just a bit shitty.
That argument panned out real well against Terrans back in the Steppes of War days too. However, Terrans got nerfed (directly and indirectly) into having to play more macro oriented play styles. Those same map changes that forced Terran to rethink early game had little effect on warp-in Protoss, nor did any balance changes really affect Protoss early game aggressive options. Face it, Protoss are able to win a lot with gimmick play and tend to focus on that style, especially in Korea.
Wow you are dense, you are just confirming what Yaotzin said. Toss is so garbage they are pigeonholed in to gimmicky shit. "Nothing else works."
even if i kind of agree with your post, please try not to insult people...
On November 05 2011 08:32 mlspmatt wrote: I don't know why there's no discussion about how bad the Korean Protoss play style is. Protoss strength is late game, yet the Korean Protoss are the cheesiest players on the planet. Hongun, Genius, Tassadar, Alicia, even MC at times can't help himself and uses some crappy void-ray or DT garbage. Its a pandemic.
Protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out, or broodlord/infestor for the other MU. The idea that Protoss is strong in the late game is a myth created earlier in the game's life when people didn't know anything really.
Protoss players are cheesy because *nothing else works*. Simple as that. The race is just a bit shitty.
That argument panned out real well against Terrans back in the Steppes of War days too. However, Terrans got nerfed (directly and indirectly) into having to play more macro oriented play styles. Those same map changes that forced Terran to rethink early game had little effect on warp-in Protoss, nor did any balance changes really affect Protoss early game aggressive options. Face it, Protoss are able to win a lot with gimmick play and tend to focus on that style, especially in Korea.
Amen to this.
so you agree that the current Protoss design is shit and needs a revamp.
weaker timing pushes and more end game capabilities?!
Except without the "end game" capabilities part. As long as "top" Protoss feel that they can use gimmicky all-in-ish builds, they will continue to prepare them as go-to builds. You can give them all the options and end-game buffs in the world, but as long as they have that deck of powerful early options, they will continue to use them at the detriment of tournament results, as long as they continue to work in practice. I guarantee you, no Protoss in GSL goes into their matches having practiced builds they lose a lot with in practice.
On November 05 2011 08:32 mlspmatt wrote: I don't know why there's no discussion about how bad the Korean Protoss play style is. Protoss strength is late game, yet the Korean Protoss are the cheesiest players on the planet. Hongun, Genius, Tassadar, Alicia, even MC at times can't help himself and uses some crappy void-ray or DT garbage. Its a pandemic.
Protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out, or broodlord/infestor for the other MU. The idea that Protoss is strong in the late game is a myth created earlier in the game's life when people didn't know anything really.
Protoss players are cheesy because *nothing else works*. Simple as that. The race is just a bit shitty.
That argument panned out real well against Terrans back in the Steppes of War days too. However, Terrans got nerfed (directly and indirectly) into having to play more macro oriented play styles. Those same map changes that forced Terran to rethink early game had little effect on warp-in Protoss, nor did any balance changes really affect Protoss early game aggressive options. Face it, Protoss are able to win a lot with gimmick play and tend to focus on that style, especially in Korea.
Amen to this.
so you agree that the current Protoss design is shit and needs a revamp.
weaker timing pushes and more end game capabilities?!
Except without the "end game" capabilities part. As long as "top" Protoss feel that they can use gimmicky all-in-ish builds, they will continue to prepare them as go-to builds. You can give them all the options and end-game buffs in the world, but as long as they have that deck of powerful early options, they will continue to use them at the detriment of tournament results, as long as they continue to work in practice. I guarantee you, no Protoss in GSL goes into their matches having practiced builds they lose a lot with in practice.
i kind of agree with you. that is what would happen.
the reality is a little different though, i think. i remember MC trying to play macro games against terrans, see the finals NASL and IEM against Puma and he got utterly destroyed despite of playing better (imo).
the trend is last month(s) has been back from macro games to gimmicky timing attacks because macro games failed protoss so hard.
edit: btw, I am not saying KA was fine the way it was!
On November 05 2011 08:43 koolaid1990 wrote: blizzard was stupid. The game was balanced with KA. Toss was near 50% winrate, games were 10x much more fun to watch with all the constant back and forth type action. drops are way to devastating to toss these days. Even when KA was in, the first 2 gsl champions were zerg, and protoss were struggling in the GSL until MC came in, and even then most of his games won were really strong cheeses. After they took out KA, they had ALL sorts of balanced problems, protoss winrates dropped hard in korea.
KA was in no way balanced and i'm not sure where you got the 50% from. I distinctly remember many terrans saying that you couldn't let protoss get templar or else you'd lose (Drewbie said on stream once "hey guys i got a new sick tvp build. What I do is scan every minute and when i see a templar archive, i bring every single scv and allin them". There were many games where a terran would absolutely demolish a protoss army (which in of itself at the time was rare) and protoss would warp in 5 storms and herp derp the terran's army is gone. That doesn't seem like fun to watch. Now that terrans have gotten ridiculously good with ghosts, should the KA be put back in? Definitely not in its previous form, but a +15 energy or faster energy regen would be something neat to try out.
As for the people saying that Protosses cheese because that's the only thing viable, that's completely retarded. Do you really think that if "Macro protoss" was buffed (which it doesn't really need to be), people like Hongun, Hwangsin, Genius, and every single other alliny-protosses would suddenly adopt macro play? No, they allin because it's very easy to execute and can easily grant you free-wins which is what you're looking for when you're a bad player.
On November 05 2011 08:43 koolaid1990 wrote: blizzard was stupid. The game was balanced with KA. Toss was near 50% winrate, games were 10x much more fun to watch with all the constant back and forth type action. drops are way to devastating to toss these days. Even when KA was in, the first 2 gsl champions were zerg, and protoss were struggling in the GSL until MC came in, and even then most of his games won were really strong cheeses. After they took out KA, they had ALL sorts of balanced problems, protoss winrates dropped hard in korea.
KA was in no way balanced and i'm not sure where you got the 50% from. I distinctly remember many terrans saying that you couldn't let protoss get templar or else you'd lose (Drewbie said on stream once "hey guys i got a new sick tvp build. What I do is scan every minute and when i see a templar archive, i bring every single scv and allin them". There were many games where a terran would absolutely demolish a protoss army (which in of itself at the time was rare) and protoss would warp in 5 storms and herp derp the terran's army is gone. That doesn't seem like fun to watch. Now that terrans have gotten ridiculously good with ghosts, should the KA be put back in? Definitely not in its previous form, but a +15 energy or faster energy regen would be something neat to try out.
As for the people saying that Protosses cheese because that's the only thing viable, that's completely retarded. Do you really think that if "Macro protoss" was buffed (which it doesn't really need to be), people like Hongun, Hwangsin, Genius, and every single other alliny-protosses would suddenly adopt macro play? No, they allin because it's very easy to execute and can easily grant you free-wins which is what you're looking for when you're a bad player.
if we want to talk about pro level game balance please do not quote destiny or anyone of that caliber.
then i would like to hear which protoss isn't alliny right now in your opinion?
aside from that you say that with KA protoss just warped templars in and roflstomped the terran. that's kind of unlikely unless the terran decided to go on a full out attack at the protoss base, you know because HTs are damn slow. so they were used as defensive mechanism.
again, I am not saying KA was ok the way it was but your arguing is kinda of imo.
I used to not thinking that KA was op, but then I watched White Ra's games. My God, those were hopeless. You literally just can't stop KA templar and a few zealots even if you know they're gonna come. You can't just send big chunk of your army to defend 2,3 bases at once because your main army has to station against the protoss's. You can send a group of army to defend the drop/sneaked pylon, but with equal supplies, KA templar + upgraded chargelots are much better than MMM. Even if you can defend 1 wave, it's gonna come again and your mmm out of hp to do anything good.
On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote: The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference
Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot.
Great point! We should have troops calldown.. NOW WE'RE TALKING!
And a lot of you are just looking at PvT, what about PvZ and PvP?
PvZ KA will help defend vs mutas It may be an alternative to colosus against hydras. KA not good vs roaches, brood lords, ultras.. onyl good vs clumped lings and vs hydras. drop play is risky vs zerg because they get easy map cotnrol
PvP this would be interesting. obviuosly mirror matches should be held to a different measure of balance.. but if this results in less colosus battles, id be all for it
You are confusing what is good. Storm is good against Mutas and an alternative to Colossi vs Hydras. KA does not make storm better or worse vs these things. What KA does it make it so it removes any strategical positioning with your HT and army. You don't have to use anything to defend until you need to defend which removes a big element of play. The opponent can no longer force your hand into a specific position so he can abuse a hole it creates somewhere else since with KA there are no holes.
That in a nutshell is why KA was removed. It doesn't add options to the game, it removes them.
KA doesnt make the deathball stronger. Any templars sitting in your deathabll will already have enough energy anyways.
Protoss units are not very mobile, and they are very weak when not all together. Protoss is also the race that is most dependent on gas. It is too weakening to them to have 2 HT and a couple zealots sitting in EVERY base.
Drops are already really devastating. If your gates are on cooldown, you have no choice but to move your whole (or at least half) army do defend the drop.
You basically saying you want a invincible race. Cool
No, he is saying that Protoss defense sucks and that KA adds some needed defense. For example, Protoss is the only race that can actually have their buildings unpowered, as in they can have their buildings not die but still not be able to build anything. KA adds defense to Protoss bases late game.
Is adding in KA balanced? I cannot say, but it would not make Protoss invincible. It might make them OP, or it might make them more stable. It also might limit options if it forces Protoss to go Templar every game, but who knows? The game was different when it was taken away. There have been a lot of changes and it is difficult to tel what would happen if they re-introduced it. It's a moot point though since they definitely will not bring it back.
And that's the problem. KA doesn't add defense. It adds offense. If KA could somehow be magically worked to be a defensive-only ability relating to templar then it might be alright, but due to the warpgate mechanics, it was just too easy to get templar instantly to the exact right place on the map as and when they were required. KA wasn't defensive, it was whatever it needed to be, and gave you an instant storm where you wanted. If you think Protoss needs some kind of defensive buff, then KA will never be it.
On November 05 2011 08:32 mlspmatt wrote: I don't know why there's no discussion about how bad the Korean Protoss play style is. Protoss strength is late game, yet the Korean Protoss are the cheesiest players on the planet. Hongun, Genius, Tassadar, Alicia, even MC at times can't help himself and uses some crappy void-ray or DT garbage. Its a pandemic.
Protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out, or broodlord/infestor for the other MU. The idea that Protoss is strong in the late game is a myth created earlier in the game's life when people didn't know anything really.
Protoss players are cheesy because *nothing else works*. Simple as that. The race is just a bit shitty.
That argument panned out real well against Terrans back in the Steppes of War days too. However, Terrans got nerfed (directly and indirectly) into having to play more macro oriented play styles. Those same map changes that forced Terran to rethink early game had little effect on warp-in Protoss, nor did any balance changes really affect Protoss early game aggressive options. Face it, Protoss are able to win a lot with gimmick play and tend to focus on that style, especially in Korea.
Amen to this.
so you agree that the current Protoss design is shit and needs a revamp.
weaker timing pushes and more end game capabilities?!
Except without the "end game" capabilities part. As long as "top" Protoss feel that they can use gimmicky all-in-ish builds, they will continue to prepare them as go-to builds. You can give them all the options and end-game buffs in the world, but as long as they have that deck of powerful early options, they will continue to use them at the detriment of tournament results, as long as they continue to work in practice. I guarantee you, no Protoss in GSL goes into their matches having practiced builds they lose a lot with in practice.
i kind of agree with you. that is what would happen.
the reality is a little different though, i think. i remember MC trying to play macro games against terrans, see the finals NASL and IEM against Puma and he got utterly destroyed despite of playing better (imo).
the trend is last month(s) has been back from macro games to gimmicky timing attacks because macro games failed protoss so hard.
edit: btw, I am not saying KA was fine the way it was!
I really think it's a matter of having that fall-back mindset. Back in the dark days of SCV pulls, we had a few Terrans try macro games and get mild, if not abysmal, results. The metagame revolved around Terrans really driving hard stim, seige, and banshee timing pushes. Luckily, it was a very systematic and discrete process, allowing Terrans to adapt slowly and not fall out of the scene. 1-1-1 is almost a window into that past, except the macro metagame had evolved as the fall-back.
It's reverse for Protoss right now. KA wouldn't fix that, nor would endgame buffs. The only way to highlight any REAL endgame problems would be to remove all effective early game fall-backs, like was done to Terran. I personally don't prefer that approach, but I retain my belief that is the only way to be remotely certain of endgame weaknesses.
IMO KA should make an HT start with like 65-68 energy or something, that way you can't warp in --> storm, but you also don't have to wait too long for more. I don't like how Blizzard handles some balance changes sometimes. Like, they are getting rid of the Carrier in HotS after never tweaking it's build time, cost, strength, or anything really... and when they got rid of KA it went from instant storm to 'wait 44 seconds for storm'. In general they really do a great job though.
I'd really like to see a KA still in the game, but instead of: +25 starting energy, cost 150/150 It could be: +15 starting energy, cost 100/100 or 125/125
KA was a great upgrade and idea in general. I like that it made the game last longer, because if Terran beat your army in a big fight you could still hang on because of KA.
It was overpower as hell, even you had like 50-100 supply lead, terran were unable to break protoss even if you win the first fight coz next warp in and you had to go back and wait until your ghost get enough energy, god those days were terrible...
On November 05 2011 08:43 koolaid1990 wrote: blizzard was stupid. The game was balanced with KA. Toss was near 50% winrate, games were 10x much more fun to watch with all the constant back and forth type action. drops are way to devastating to toss these days. Even when KA was in, the first 2 gsl champions were zerg, and protoss were struggling in the GSL until MC came in, and even then most of his games won were really strong cheeses. After they took out KA, they had ALL sorts of balanced problems, protoss winrates dropped hard in korea.
KA was in no way balanced and i'm not sure where you got the 50% from. I distinctly remember many terrans saying that you couldn't let protoss get templar or else you'd lose (Drewbie said on stream once "hey guys i got a new sick tvp build. What I do is scan every minute and when i see a templar archive, i bring every single scv and allin them". There were many games where a terran would absolutely demolish a protoss army (which in of itself at the time was rare) and protoss would warp in 5 storms and herp derp the terran's army is gone. That doesn't seem like fun to watch. Now that terrans have gotten ridiculously good with ghosts, should the KA be put back in? Definitely not in its previous form, but a +15 energy or faster energy regen would be something neat to try out.
As for the people saying that Protosses cheese because that's the only thing viable, that's completely retarded. Do you really think that if "Macro protoss" was buffed (which it doesn't really need to be), people like Hongun, Hwangsin, Genius, and every single other alliny-protosses would suddenly adopt macro play? No, they allin because it's very easy to execute and can easily grant you free-wins which is what you're looking for when you're a bad player.
if we want to talk about pro level game balance please do not quote destiny or anyone of that caliber.
aside from that you say that with KA protoss just warped templars in and roflstomped the terran. that's kind of unlikely unless the terran decided to go on a full out attack at the protoss base, you know because HTs are damn slow. so they were used as defensive mechanism.
then i would like to hear which protoss isn't alliny right now in your opinion
Drewbie at the time was quite good. He wasn't tip-top, but reasonably good. I also don't really trust korean balance opinions because things can be lost in translation and koreans like to stir up drama :p. The problem was that let's say a terran won a battle very decisively. There's two things he can do, mass expand or attack. Mass expand works because the terran has a huge army lead so protoss can't do anything about it. However, you can mass expand when you're both maxed and sitting around and armies die so fast in 200/200 engagements that having 6 bases instead of 4 doesn't really matter until bases start mining out. So really, counter-attacking should be the most ideal option, because you can take advantage Of your army lead to deny bases, but you couldn't do that because of KA. So really, you basically could only sit there, letting the protoss remax and you rinse-repeat until some guy bashes their way to victory. Tl;dr. protoss could fuck up majorly, and terran couldn't do anything about it.
I haven't watched enough gsl recently but sage,jyp, and oz have looked solid and played smart in the games that i've seen. Hero plays well too, some of his tactics could be gimmicky but really, what is considered gimmicky now could be considered completely standard later on. Huk has great micro, but sometimes can be too agressive at times that he shouldn't be.
On November 05 2011 08:43 koolaid1990 wrote: blizzard was stupid. The game was balanced with KA. Toss was near 50% winrate, games were 10x much more fun to watch with all the constant back and forth type action. drops are way to devastating to toss these days. Even when KA was in, the first 2 gsl champions were zerg, and protoss were struggling in the GSL until MC came in, and even then most of his games won were really strong cheeses. After they took out KA, they had ALL sorts of balanced problems, protoss winrates dropped hard in korea.
KA was in no way balanced and i'm not sure where you got the 50% from. I distinctly remember many terrans saying that you couldn't let protoss get templar or else you'd lose (Drewbie said on stream once "hey guys i got a new sick tvp build. What I do is scan every minute and when i see a templar archive, i bring every single scv and allin them". There were many games where a terran would absolutely demolish a protoss army (which in of itself at the time was rare) and protoss would warp in 5 storms and herp derp the terran's army is gone. That doesn't seem like fun to watch. Now that terrans have gotten ridiculously good with ghosts, should the KA be put back in? Definitely not in its previous form, but a +15 energy or faster energy regen would be something neat to try out.
As for the people saying that Protosses cheese because that's the only thing viable, that's completely retarded. Do you really think that if "Macro protoss" was buffed (which it doesn't really need to be), people like Hongun, Hwangsin, Genius, and every single other alliny-protosses would suddenly adopt macro play? No, they allin because it's very easy to execute and can easily grant you free-wins which is what you're looking for when you're a bad player.
On November 05 2011 00:37 RemrafGrez wrote: [quote]
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference
Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot.
Great point! We should have troops calldown.. NOW WE'RE TALKING!
And a lot of you are just looking at PvT, what about PvZ and PvP?
PvZ KA will help defend vs mutas It may be an alternative to colosus against hydras. KA not good vs roaches, brood lords, ultras.. onyl good vs clumped lings and vs hydras. drop play is risky vs zerg because they get easy map cotnrol
PvP this would be interesting. obviuosly mirror matches should be held to a different measure of balance.. but if this results in less colosus battles, id be all for it
You are confusing what is good. Storm is good against Mutas and an alternative to Colossi vs Hydras. KA does not make storm better or worse vs these things. What KA does it make it so it removes any strategical positioning with your HT and army. You don't have to use anything to defend until you need to defend which removes a big element of play. The opponent can no longer force your hand into a specific position so he can abuse a hole it creates somewhere else since with KA there are no holes.
That in a nutshell is why KA was removed. It doesn't add options to the game, it removes them.
KA doesnt make the deathball stronger. Any templars sitting in your deathabll will already have enough energy anyways.
Protoss units are not very mobile, and they are very weak when not all together. Protoss is also the race that is most dependent on gas. It is too weakening to them to have 2 HT and a couple zealots sitting in EVERY base.
Drops are already really devastating. If your gates are on cooldown, you have no choice but to move your whole (or at least half) army do defend the drop.
You basically saying you want a invincible race. Cool
No, he is saying that Protoss defense sucks and that KA adds some needed defense. For example, Protoss is the only race that can actually have their buildings unpowered, as in they can have their buildings not die but still not be able to build anything. KA adds defense to Protoss bases late game.
Is adding in KA balanced? I cannot say, but it would not make Protoss invincible. It might make them OP, or it might make them more stable. It also might limit options if it forces Protoss to go Templar every game, but who knows? The game was different when it was taken away. There have been a lot of changes and it is difficult to tel what would happen if they re-introduced it. It's a moot point though since they definitely will not bring it back.
And that's the problem. KA doesn't add defense. It adds offense. If KA could somehow be magically worked to be a defensive-only ability relating to templar then it might be alright, but due to the warpgate mechanics, it was just too easy to get templar instantly to the exact right place on the map as and when they were required. KA wasn't defensive, it was whatever it needed to be, and gave you an instant storm where you wanted. If you think Protoss needs some kind of defensive buff, then KA will never be it.
Yes, KA does add some to offense since you can reinforce with KAed High Templar, but in the majority of situations KA added defense. Dropped by Terran? KAed Templar for defense. Terran/Zerg attacking your 3rd/fourth? KAed Templar for defense. It was for the majority of the time a defensive ability, since it comes so late game. You are extremely unlikely to have a hidden pylon in your base in late game when you get KA, so offensively it can only work as a reinforcement.
Like I said, it might be OP as offense/defense, or it might not. But it certainly added a lot to defense and I don't think you can argue that it did not.
On November 05 2011 08:03 me_viet wrote: But if the argument is that the game should be balanced at the highest level, then GSL code S having such a dominant Terran presence SHOULD be worrying.
Code S had a shitty tournament structure that didn't allow for a lot of change.
Add to that terran stability, early dominance during the beginnings of SC2 and simply more and/or better players and you have a recipe for GomTvT.
On November 05 2011 08:32 mlspmatt wrote: I don't know why there's no discussion about how bad the Korean Protoss play style is. Protoss strength is late game, yet the Korean Protoss are the cheesiest players on the planet. Hongun, Genius, Tassadar, Alicia, even MC at times can't help himself and uses some crappy void-ray or DT garbage. Its a pandemic.
Protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out, or broodlord/infestor for the other MU. The idea that Protoss is strong in the late game is a myth created earlier in the game's life when people didn't know anything really.
Protoss players are cheesy because *nothing else works*. Simple as that. The race is just a bit shitty.
Guess what. In a couple of months the "protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out" is going to be a myth, just the same way.
One of the reasons Protoss players really dislike removing KA was there literally was no time for Terrans to adapt.
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Take for example EMP. Blizzard waited for MONTHS. MONTHS of waiting to see Protoss players find a solution on their own or do things differently. Waited until there were only 5 Protoss left in the GSL Code S. Now finally they're nerfing EMP to 1.5 radius.
With KA, there was never any waiting. KA strategies were literally only being used for about 1 month. Terrans never adapted, the metagame never shifted. It was just flat out removed. Why didn't Blizzard ever wait for Terrans to try out counter strategies in TvP? Why didn't Blizzard wait until there were only 5 Terrans left in Code S before removing KA? This is why Protoss players are so bitter about KA. Because it never had a chance to be explored. Do you wanna know how many Terran still were in Code S when KA was removed? 14/32. More than Protoss. More than Zerg. More than a 1/3rd
If KA was kept, and it turned out to be OP, Protoss would not be asking for KA as much as they are now. But as it is, we'll never know.
On November 05 2011 11:49 GhostFall wrote: One of the reasons Protoss players really dislike removing KA was there literally was no time for Terrans to adapt.
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Take for example EMP. Blizzard waited for MONTHS. MONTHS of waiting to see Protoss players find a solution on their own or do things differently. Waited until there were only 5 Protoss left in the GSL Code S. Now finally they're nerfing EMP to 1.5 radius.
With KA, there was never any waiting. KA strategies were literally only being used for about 1 month. Terrans never adapted, the metagame never shifted. It was just flat out removed. Why didn't Blizzard ever wait for Terrans to try out counter strategies in TvP? Why didn't Blizzard wait until there were only 5 Terrans left in Code S before removing KA? This is why Protoss players are so bitter about KA. Because it never had a chance to be explored. Do you wanna know how many Terran still were in Code S when KA was removed? 14/32. More than Protoss. More than Zerg. More than a 1/3rd
If KA was kept, and it turned out to be OP, Protoss would not be asking for KA as much as they are now. But as it is, we'll never know.
Never, explored. Just flat out removed, sentiments of all Protoss.
On November 05 2011 08:43 koolaid1990 wrote: blizzard was stupid. The game was balanced with KA. Toss was near 50% winrate, games were 10x much more fun to watch with all the constant back and forth type action. drops are way to devastating to toss these days. Even when KA was in, the first 2 gsl champions were zerg, and protoss were struggling in the GSL until MC came in, and even then most of his games won were really strong cheeses. After they took out KA, they had ALL sorts of balanced problems, protoss winrates dropped hard in korea.
KA was in no way balanced and i'm not sure where you got the 50% from. I distinctly remember many terrans saying that you couldn't let protoss get templar or else you'd lose (Drewbie said on stream once "hey guys i got a new sick tvp build. What I do is scan every minute and when i see a templar archive, i bring every single scv and allin them". There were many games where a terran would absolutely demolish a protoss army (which in of itself at the time was rare) and protoss would warp in 5 storms and herp derp the terran's army is gone. That doesn't seem like fun to watch. Now that terrans have gotten ridiculously good with ghosts, should the KA be put back in? Definitely not in its previous form, but a +15 energy or faster energy regen would be something neat to try out.
As for the people saying that Protosses cheese because that's the only thing viable, that's completely retarded. Do you really think that if "Macro protoss" was buffed (which it doesn't really need to be), people like Hongun, Hwangsin, Genius, and every single other alliny-protosses would suddenly adopt macro play? No, they allin because it's very easy to execute and can easily grant you free-wins which is what you're looking for when you're a bad player.
it's not biased towards any race, either. though some may disagree, but they are only disagreeing because it doesn't uphold their position on the balance of the game. thus proving that KA made the game more balanced (damn near it too) in both matchups and once it was taken away (march) toss became much more shitty. there was never a such a thing that it was impossible to win vs toss.
On November 05 2011 00:50 Noocta wrote: Stop with KA seriously.
Warp a templar, wait for energy to storm = produce a ghost/ infestor with energy upgrade
It's the SAME TIME.
I think the main concern is that they balanced HT around having this upgrade, and then they just removed it without doing anything to compensate. If they had originally designed SC2 and HT without having KA, maybe things would have been different, maybe they would have increased the HT movement speed? Part of the reason I think HT were made to be so slow was because of KA and being able to have useful templar anywhere on the map.
Would be nice if they made HT a little faster (2.25) so they weren't so clumsy and annoying to use offensively.
On November 05 2011 08:43 koolaid1990 wrote: blizzard was stupid. The game was balanced with KA. Toss was near 50% winrate, games were 10x much more fun to watch with all the constant back and forth type action. drops are way to devastating to toss these days. Even when KA was in, the first 2 gsl champions were zerg, and protoss were struggling in the GSL until MC came in, and even then most of his games won were really strong cheeses. After they took out KA, they had ALL sorts of balanced problems, protoss winrates dropped hard in korea.
As for the people saying that Protosses cheese because that's the only thing viable, that's completely retarded. Do you really think that if "Macro protoss" was buffed (which it doesn't really need to be), people like Hongun, Hwangsin, Genius, and every single other alliny-protosses would suddenly adopt macro play? No, they allin because it's very easy to execute and can easily grant you free-wins which is what you're looking for when you're a bad player.
Whoops my bad, I was under the illusion pro-players who play this game for a living will do whatever they think has the best chance of winning so you know, they can actually make a living. I didn't realize that they only all-inned because it required less effort. I guess they don't care about winning or money or success, as long as they can avoid evil macro games like the plague they are happy!
On November 05 2011 08:43 koolaid1990 wrote: blizzard was stupid. The game was balanced with KA. Toss was near 50% winrate, games were 10x much more fun to watch with all the constant back and forth type action. drops are way to devastating to toss these days. Even when KA was in, the first 2 gsl champions were zerg, and protoss were struggling in the GSL until MC came in, and even then most of his games won were really strong cheeses. After they took out KA, they had ALL sorts of balanced problems, protoss winrates dropped hard in korea.
KA was in no way balanced and i'm not sure where you got the 50% from. I distinctly remember many terrans saying that you couldn't let protoss get templar or else you'd lose (Drewbie said on stream once "hey guys i got a new sick tvp build. What I do is scan every minute and when i see a templar archive, i bring every single scv and allin them". There were many games where a terran would absolutely demolish a protoss army (which in of itself at the time was rare) and protoss would warp in 5 storms and herp derp the terran's army is gone. That doesn't seem like fun to watch. Now that terrans have gotten ridiculously good with ghosts, should the KA be put back in? Definitely not in its previous form, but a +15 energy or faster energy regen would be something neat to try out.
As for the people saying that Protosses cheese because that's the only thing viable, that's completely retarded. Do you really think that if "Macro protoss" was buffed (which it doesn't really need to be), people like Hongun, Hwangsin, Genius, and every single other alliny-protosses would suddenly adopt macro play? No, they allin because it's very easy to execute and can easily grant you free-wins which is what you're looking for when you're a bad player.
it's not biased towards any race, either. though some may disagree, but they are only disagreeing because it doesn't uphold their position on the balance of the game. thus proving that KA made the game more balanced (damn near it too) in both matchups and once it was taken away (march) toss became much more shitty. there was never a such a thing that it was impossible to win vs toss.
That's why the most balanced window was in June, 2-3 months after the KA nerf. Makes PERFECT sense that KA was the glue holding everything together! It's so obvious now!
Never mind that those graphs do nothing to filter out cases of skill gaps skewing results, like Korean (mainly Terran) participation in MLG and other open Western tournaments. Even then, however, there is no way to make solid qualitative judgments about (im)balanced aspects of any race based on those quantitative numbers. The only reasonable conclusion you can make is that Protoss performed worse than the other 2 races in the same conditions. The data in no way even suggests KA removal tilted Protoss winrates in one way or another.
On November 05 2011 00:50 Noocta wrote: Stop with KA seriously.
Warp a templar, wait for energy to storm = produce a ghost/ infestor with energy upgrade
It's the SAME TIME.
I think the main concern is that they balanced HT around having this upgrade, and then they just removed it without doing anything to compensate. If they had originally designed SC2 and HT without having KA, maybe things would have been different, maybe they would have increased the HT movement speed? Part of the reason I think HT were made to be so slow was because of KA and being able to have useful templar anywhere on the map.
Would be nice if they made HT a little faster (2.25) so they weren't so clumsy and annoying to use offensively.
Or maybe they designed KA around the fact that every other significant caster has a +25 energy upgrade. That would make the most sense from a development standpoint.
On November 05 2011 12:15 Benzzro wrote: Team Liquid - The place bronze players discuss balance.
Benzzro - Silver player specializing in overgeneralizing.
Calling someone a silver player when they just dissed all the noobs on TL, damn near perfect assumption my friend,
I was making an overly ignorant comment based on your overly generalized statement. And no you dissed everyone on TL, not just the "noobs." Get off your high horse.
When you kill every ghost or he runs out of energy, you can't do anything as a reaction. With KA, you could warp in templars that have storm and actually make use of the fact that he as no ghosts.
On November 05 2011 12:15 Benzzro wrote: Team Liquid - The place bronze players discuss balance.
Benzzro - Silver player specializing in overgeneralizing.
Calling someone a silver player when they just dissed all the noobs on TL, damn near perfect assumption my friend,
I was making an overly ignorant comment based on your overly generalized statement. And no you dissed everyone on TL, not just the "noobs." Get off your high horse.
But most of the posts in this thread are written by people obviously in low leagues that don't have the game knowledge to construct a legitimate post, yet they do anyway, no? Sorry if saying something hurts your feelings, truth hurts sometimes.
On November 05 2011 08:43 koolaid1990 wrote: blizzard was stupid. The game was balanced with KA. Toss was near 50% winrate, games were 10x much more fun to watch with all the constant back and forth type action. drops are way to devastating to toss these days. Even when KA was in, the first 2 gsl champions were zerg, and protoss were struggling in the GSL until MC came in, and even then most of his games won were really strong cheeses. After they took out KA, they had ALL sorts of balanced problems, protoss winrates dropped hard in korea.
KA was in no way balanced and i'm not sure where you got the 50% from. I distinctly remember many terrans saying that you couldn't let protoss get templar or else you'd lose (Drewbie said on stream once "hey guys i got a new sick tvp build. What I do is scan every minute and when i see a templar archive, i bring every single scv and allin them". There were many games where a terran would absolutely demolish a protoss army (which in of itself at the time was rare) and protoss would warp in 5 storms and herp derp the terran's army is gone. That doesn't seem like fun to watch. Now that terrans have gotten ridiculously good with ghosts, should the KA be put back in? Definitely not in its previous form, but a +15 energy or faster energy regen would be something neat to try out.
As for the people saying that Protosses cheese because that's the only thing viable, that's completely retarded. Do you really think that if "Macro protoss" was buffed (which it doesn't really need to be), people like Hongun, Hwangsin, Genius, and every single other alliny-protosses would suddenly adopt macro play? No, they allin because it's very easy to execute and can easily grant you free-wins which is what you're looking for when you're a bad player.
it's not biased towards any race, either. though some may disagree, but they are only disagreeing because it doesn't uphold their position on the balance of the game. thus proving that KA made the game more balanced (damn near it too) in both matchups and once it was taken away (march) toss became much more shitty. there was never a such a thing that it was impossible to win vs toss.
That's why the most balanced window was in June, 2-3 months after the KA nerf. Makes PERFECT sense that KA was the glue holding everything together! It's so obvious now!
Never mind that those graphs do nothing to filter out cases of skill gaps skewing results, like Korean (mainly Terran) participation in MLG and other open Western tournaments. Even then, however, there is no way to make solid qualitative judgments about (im)balanced aspects of any race based on those quantitative numbers. The only reasonable conclusion you can make is that Protoss performed worse than the other 2 races in the same conditions. The data in no way even suggests KA removal tilted Protoss winrates in one way or another.
Not sure what type of curve your seeing, but protoss did better in 1 month out of 7 since the removal of KA. do you see the downward curve my friend? or are you that delusional?
On November 05 2011 12:15 Benzzro wrote: Team Liquid - The place bronze players discuss balance.
Benzzro - Silver player specializing in overgeneralizing.
Calling someone a silver player when they just dissed all the noobs on TL, damn near perfect assumption my friend,
I was making an overly ignorant comment based on your overly generalized statement. And no you dissed everyone on TL, not just the "noobs." Get off your high horse.
But most of the posts in this thread are written by people obviously in low leagues that don't have the game knowledge to construct a legitimate post, yet they do anyway, no? Sorry if saying something hurts your feelings, truth hurts sometimes.
It seemed like KA was removed because it allowed Protoss to often remain in games where they were losing/had lost major engagements. Similar to how Dustin Browder said Zerg need a better method for winning a game they are way ahead in the event of the Terran turtling hard... sometimes balance isn't in terms of gaining an advantage, but rather using your advantage to actually win the game. KA was stopping Terrans from using their advantages to win the game.
An early Alicia game in the GSL on Shakuras had Alicia using KA to perfection; except in a realistic view Alicia was just getting destroyed all game in every engagement but afterwards would be able to warp in HTs and destroy all the remaining Bio/Storm drop the mineral lines. It made for an exciting game and great drama, but it was the first time it clicked for me that the KA was too strong. It was a brilliant use of KA but I've never been surprised that post the KA nerf Alicia has struggled to remain relevant.
Just looking at winrates of the races isn't specific enough to examine the balance of KA. Races can lose but have particular spells be unbalanced; it is possible the rest of the Protoss arsenal was so weak that it allowed Terrans to over-compensate and protect themselves specifically against HTs in a manner that let Terrans win >50% of games.
What would the solution to that be? Strengthen the rest of the Protoss arsenal, and nerf HTs. Blizzard has done exactly this.
KA was broken plane and simple. It let protoss creep back into games with cannons + warp in templar and you basically could'nt do anything. You would kill an entire toss army and then 2 temps would warp in and rape your shit. There was basically no way to attack past a certain point in the game.
On a balance note, it should make sense that if Ghosts are beating HTs too easily, it is possible that the reason is that Colossus are too weak. When looking at how two sides are balanced you have to look at the whole arsenal. Maybe currently its just too easy for Terrans to focus on Ghost production. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, but taking a wide view of how all units interact is how you have to look at the game.
We will never truly know if KA was overpowered or balanced in PvT. This is because at the time, tosses were using HTs, but terrans were just starting to utilize ghosts when KA was taken out. We never really got to see how superb ghost micro would play out against KA.
I mean think about it this way. What if terrans had started using ghosts before protosses had tried HTs? Blizzard very well might have taken out ghosts' energy upgrade instead, and then spent the rest of their days trying to buff terran and nerf toss to get the matchup back to 50/50.
I think the reason that HTs were used before ghosts was because the main function of HTs remained the same from BW, whereas the role of the ghost in BW was very different. That familiarity may have been played the biggest part in HTs eventually losing KA.
On November 05 2011 13:16 Dante_A_ wrote: It seemed like KA was removed because it allowed Protoss to often remain in games where they were losing/had lost major engagements. Similar to how Dustin Browder said Zerg need a better method for winning a game they are way ahead in the event of the Terran turtling hard... sometimes balance isn't in terms of gaining an advantage, but rather using your advantage to actually win the game. KA was stopping Terrans from using their advantages to win the game.
An early Alicia game in the GSL on Shakuras had Alicia using KA to perfection; except in a realistic view Alicia was just getting destroyed all game in every engagement but afterwards would be able to warp in HTs and destroy all the remaining Bio/Storm drop the mineral lines. It made for an exciting game and great drama, but it was the first time it clicked for me that the KA was too strong. It was a brilliant use of KA but I've never been surprised that post the KA nerf Alicia has struggled to remain relevant.
Just looking at winrates of the races isn't specific enough to examine the balance of KA. Races can lose but have particular spells be unbalanced; it is possible the rest of the Protoss arsenal was so weak that it allowed Terrans to over-compensate and protect themselves specifically against HTs in a manner that let Terrans win >50% of games.
What would the solution to that be? Strengthen the rest of the Protoss arsenal, and nerf HTs. Blizzard has done exactly this.
The issue is that it is too easy for Terran to gain said advantage because Protoss has NO cost effective counters to drop outside of just being godly with their observer/watch tower control, which never happens because Protoss is always on the defensive until they can get a huge 150+ deathball going.
KA was the only thing preventing from Terran leveraging their ridiculous early/mid game advantage with early Bio pressure/drops into an insurmountable advantage. Right now, it is IMPOSSIBLE to secure 3rd/4th bases on most maps because it is too easy to lose that extended base to literally one drop. Just look at NASL recently with White-Ra and Puma. White-Ra was SO FAR AHEAD the entire time, had built up his advantage through ridiculous level of play, and still lost a game because Puma managed to sneak ONE drop into White-Ra's base. White-Ra had literally no units that could stop it, because Marines/Medivac is obscenely cost effective to the point that it is retarded beyond reason. I don't care what you say; White-Ra should NOT have lost that game simply because of one drop. If KA still existed in the game, he would have massacred that drop and would have won the series 2-0 easily, instead of having to severely outplay Puma again in G3 only to barely win because EMPs are currently obscenely ridiculous against Protoss deathballs.
Blizzard strengthened the rest of the Protoss arsenal? How? If anything all Blizzard has done is completely fucked the balance of the game by changing Protoss.
1) Void Ray rework that turned them from timing attack into deathball syndrome units. This sent ZvP into a MASSIVE spiral of idiotic deathball turtling that was terrible for the game, and was literally some of the most imbalanced shit I have ever seen. Why was the Void Ray reworked/changed? Because Maka and a few other Terrans were complaining to Blizzard that a strategy that recently popped up for a total of a WEEK was suddenly broken/unstoppable/unbeatable. This is a well documented case that anyone can atest to. VR change was done because a few Terran pros/high level players (who are now bottom echelon pros now) wanted to play super greedy and 1-1-1 while expanding off of it (which was at the time what almost every Terran pro did in TvP).
2) As a result of Void Ray/Colossus/Stalker deathballs that became prominent after allowing Void Rays to do extra to massive (thus nullifying Brood Lord/Ultra armies late game), Blizzard had to respond by making Infestors way better, when they were already good. What happened? The infestor became one of the most broken units in the game ever. Not a single professional player on this forum will tell you that Infestors after their buff were balanced. You had Z players literally massing nothing but Infestors and just smashing armies left and right. It was absolutely ridiculous. All of this stemmed from the idiotic Void Ray change.
3) Protoss removal of Khydarian Amulet, which was a result of Terran outcries for literally a MONTH because they were actually losing for once. If you don't believe me, look at the statistics prior to April/March, where Terran literally dominated Protoss in tournament play for 6 months straight. There was not a single outcry about KA prior to those months; look at the TL archives, B.net Archives, etc. etc. etc. However, when Blizzard announced that they were removing KA, all of a sudden you had a bunch of Terran players whining about KA simply out of the blue.
4) As a result of KA removal, Protoss has simply plummeted because of their inability to properly defend extended bases away from their main. Terran drops are insanely cost effective, and have far too much punch behind them, and Protoss has literally 0 ways to cost effectively defend them other than getting lucky with observers and catching them with feedbacks. Look at the months after the KA removal. Terran domination of Protoss is even worse after the removal of KA then it was during the beginning of retail (when no one used HTs, instead were spamming Colossus). 3 months have shown win percentages of almost 60% or more. Prior to KA removal, Terran was still winning, but not by that much. It's pretty obvious that the removal of KA has SIGNIFICANTLY affected the balance of TvP by a wide margin.
On November 05 2011 13:24 Sadist wrote: KA was broken plane and simple. It let protoss creep back into games with cannons + warp in templar and you basically could'nt do anything. You would kill an entire toss army and then 2 temps would warp in and rape your shit. There was basically no way to attack past a certain point in the game.
KA was broken when the Protoss is sitting on massive amounts of gas, in which case you were likely doing something wrong. I know you are an excellent player Sadist, way better than I am, but even you should know that if the Protoss has enough gas to CONSTANTLY spam Templars the entire game, then you likely deserved to lose the game. This is especially true considering Terran has so many ways to force cost inefficient trades with Protoss through Maurader kiting/drops/EMP.
On November 05 2011 08:43 koolaid1990 wrote: blizzard was stupid. The game was balanced with KA. Toss was near 50% winrate, games were 10x much more fun to watch with all the constant back and forth type action. drops are way to devastating to toss these days. Even when KA was in, the first 2 gsl champions were zerg, and protoss were struggling in the GSL until MC came in, and even then most of his games won were really strong cheeses. After they took out KA, they had ALL sorts of balanced problems, protoss winrates dropped hard in korea.
KA was in no way balanced and i'm not sure where you got the 50% from. I distinctly remember many terrans saying that you couldn't let protoss get templar or else you'd lose (Drewbie said on stream once "hey guys i got a new sick tvp build. What I do is scan every minute and when i see a templar archive, i bring every single scv and allin them". There were many games where a terran would absolutely demolish a protoss army (which in of itself at the time was rare) and protoss would warp in 5 storms and herp derp the terran's army is gone. That doesn't seem like fun to watch. Now that terrans have gotten ridiculously good with ghosts, should the KA be put back in? Definitely not in its previous form, but a +15 energy or faster energy regen would be something neat to try out.
As for the people saying that Protosses cheese because that's the only thing viable, that's completely retarded. Do you really think that if "Macro protoss" was buffed (which it doesn't really need to be), people like Hongun, Hwangsin, Genius, and every single other alliny-protosses would suddenly adopt macro play? No, they allin because it's very easy to execute and can easily grant you free-wins which is what you're looking for when you're a bad player.
it's not biased towards any race, either. though some may disagree, but they are only disagreeing because it doesn't uphold their position on the balance of the game. thus proving that KA made the game more balanced (damn near it too) in both matchups and once it was taken away (march) toss became much more shitty. there was never a such a thing that it was impossible to win vs toss.
That's why the most balanced window was in June, 2-3 months after the KA nerf. Makes PERFECT sense that KA was the glue holding everything together! It's so obvious now!
Never mind that those graphs do nothing to filter out cases of skill gaps skewing results, like Korean (mainly Terran) participation in MLG and other open Western tournaments. Even then, however, there is no way to make solid qualitative judgments about (im)balanced aspects of any race based on those quantitative numbers. The only reasonable conclusion you can make is that Protoss performed worse than the other 2 races in the same conditions. The data in no way even suggests KA removal tilted Protoss winrates in one way or another.
How nice of you to clearly overlook the fact that Protoss win percentage vs T immediately dropped and has continued to drop after the removal of KA.
On November 05 2011 13:16 Dante_A_ wrote: It seemed like KA was removed because it allowed Protoss to often remain in games where they were losing/had lost major engagements. Similar to how Dustin Browder said Zerg need a better method for winning a game they are way ahead in the event of the Terran turtling hard... sometimes balance isn't in terms of gaining an advantage, but rather using your advantage to actually win the game. KA was stopping Terrans from using their advantages to win the game.
An early Alicia game in the GSL on Shakuras had Alicia using KA to perfection; except in a realistic view Alicia was just getting destroyed all game in every engagement but afterwards would be able to warp in HTs and destroy all the remaining Bio/Storm drop the mineral lines. It made for an exciting game and great drama, but it was the first time it clicked for me that the KA was too strong. It was a brilliant use of KA but I've never been surprised that post the KA nerf Alicia has struggled to remain relevant.
Just looking at winrates of the races isn't specific enough to examine the balance of KA. Races can lose but have particular spells be unbalanced; it is possible the rest of the Protoss arsenal was so weak that it allowed Terrans to over-compensate and protect themselves specifically against HTs in a manner that let Terrans win >50% of games.
What would the solution to that be? Strengthen the rest of the Protoss arsenal, and nerf HTs. Blizzard has done exactly this.
The issue is that it is too easy for Terran to gain said advantage because Protoss has NO cost effective counters to drop outside of just being godly with their observer/watch tower control, which never happens because Protoss is always on the defensive until they can get a huge 150+ deathball going.
KA was the only thing preventing from Terran leveraging their ridiculous early/mid game advantage with early Bio pressure/drops into an insurmountable advantage. Right now, it is IMPOSSIBLE to secure 3rd/4th bases on most maps because it is too easy to lose that extended base to literally one drop. Just look at NASL recently with White-Ra and Puma. White-Ra was SO FAR AHEAD the entire time, had built up his advantage through ridiculous level of play, and still lost a game because Puma managed to sneak ONE drop into White-Ra's base. White-Ra had literally no units that could stop it, because Marines/Medivac is obscenely cost effective to the point that it is retarded beyond reason. I don't care what you say; White-Ra should NOT have lost that game simply because of one drop. If KA still existed in the game, he would have massacred that drop and would have won the series 2-0 easily, instead of having to severely outplay Puma again in G3 only to barely win because EMPs are currently obscenely ridiculous against Protoss deathballs.
Blizzard strengthened the rest of the Protoss arsenal? How? If anything all Blizzard has done is completely fucked the balance of the game by changing Protoss.
1) Void Ray rework that turned them from timing attack into deathball syndrome units. This sent ZvP into a MASSIVE spiral of idiotic deathball turtling that was terrible for the game, and was literally some of the most imbalanced shit I have ever seen. Why was the Void Ray reworked/changed? Because Maka and a few other Terrans were complaining to Blizzard that a strategy that recently popped up for a total of a WEEK was suddenly broken/unstoppable/unbeatable. This is a well documented case that anyone can atest to. VR change was done because a few Terran pros/high level players (who are now bottom echelon pros now) wanted to play super greedy and 1-1-1 while expanding off of it (which was at the time what almost every Terran pro did in TvP).
2) As a result of Void Ray/Colossus/Stalker deathballs that became prominent after allowing Void Rays to do extra to massive (thus nullifying Brood Lord/Ultra armies late game), Blizzard had to respond by making Infestors way better, when they were already good. What happened? The infestor became one of the most broken units in the game ever. Not a single professional player on this forum will tell you that Infestors after their buff were balanced. You had Z players literally massing nothing but Infestors and just smashing armies left and right. It was absolutely ridiculous. All of this stemmed from the idiotic Void Ray change.
3) Protoss removal of Khydarian Amulet, which was a result of Terran outcries for literally a MONTH because they were actually losing for once. If you don't believe me, look at the statistics prior to April/March, where Terran literally dominated Protoss in tournament play for 6 months straight. There was not a single outcry about KA prior to those months; look at the TL archives, B.net Archives, etc. etc. etc. However, when Blizzard announced that they were removing KA, all of a sudden you had a bunch of Terran players whining about KA simply out of the blue.
4) As a result of KA removal, Protoss has simply plummeted because of their inability to properly defend extended bases away from their main. Terran drops are insanely cost effective, and have far too much punch behind them, and Protoss has literally 0 ways to cost effectively defend them other than getting lucky with observers and catching them with feedbacks. Look at the months after the KA removal. Terran domination of Protoss is even worse after the removal of KA then it was during the beginning of retail (when no one used HTs, instead were spamming Colossus). 3 months have shown win percentages of almost 60% or more. Prior to KA removal, Terran was still winning, but not by that much. It's pretty obvious that the removal of KA has SIGNIFICANTLY affected the balance of TvP by a wide margin.
On November 05 2011 13:24 Sadist wrote: KA was broken plane and simple. It let protoss creep back into games with cannons + warp in templar and you basically could'nt do anything. You would kill an entire toss army and then 2 temps would warp in and rape your shit. There was basically no way to attack past a certain point in the game.
KA was broken when the Protoss is sitting on massive amounts of gas, in which case you were likely doing something wrong. I know you are an excellent player Sadist, way better than I am, but even you should know that if the Protoss has enough gas to CONSTANTLY spam Templars the entire game, then you likely deserved to lose the game. This is especially true considering Terran has so many ways to force cost inefficient trades with Protoss through Maurader kiting/drops/EMP.
On November 05 2011 08:43 koolaid1990 wrote: blizzard was stupid. The game was balanced with KA. Toss was near 50% winrate, games were 10x much more fun to watch with all the constant back and forth type action. drops are way to devastating to toss these days. Even when KA was in, the first 2 gsl champions were zerg, and protoss were struggling in the GSL until MC came in, and even then most of his games won were really strong cheeses. After they took out KA, they had ALL sorts of balanced problems, protoss winrates dropped hard in korea.
KA was in no way balanced and i'm not sure where you got the 50% from. I distinctly remember many terrans saying that you couldn't let protoss get templar or else you'd lose (Drewbie said on stream once "hey guys i got a new sick tvp build. What I do is scan every minute and when i see a templar archive, i bring every single scv and allin them". There were many games where a terran would absolutely demolish a protoss army (which in of itself at the time was rare) and protoss would warp in 5 storms and herp derp the terran's army is gone. That doesn't seem like fun to watch. Now that terrans have gotten ridiculously good with ghosts, should the KA be put back in? Definitely not in its previous form, but a +15 energy or faster energy regen would be something neat to try out.
As for the people saying that Protosses cheese because that's the only thing viable, that's completely retarded. Do you really think that if "Macro protoss" was buffed (which it doesn't really need to be), people like Hongun, Hwangsin, Genius, and every single other alliny-protosses would suddenly adopt macro play? No, they allin because it's very easy to execute and can easily grant you free-wins which is what you're looking for when you're a bad player.
it's not biased towards any race, either. though some may disagree, but they are only disagreeing because it doesn't uphold their position on the balance of the game. thus proving that KA made the game more balanced (damn near it too) in both matchups and once it was taken away (march) toss became much more shitty. there was never a such a thing that it was impossible to win vs toss.
That's why the most balanced window was in June, 2-3 months after the KA nerf. Makes PERFECT sense that KA was the glue holding everything together! It's so obvious now!
Never mind that those graphs do nothing to filter out cases of skill gaps skewing results, like Korean (mainly Terran) participation in MLG and other open Western tournaments. Even then, however, there is no way to make solid qualitative judgments about (im)balanced aspects of any race based on those quantitative numbers. The only reasonable conclusion you can make is that Protoss performed worse than the other 2 races in the same conditions. The data in no way even suggests KA removal tilted Protoss winrates in one way or another.
How nice of you to clearly overlook the fact that Protoss win percentage vs T immediately dropped and has continued to drop after the removal of KA.
Well put and my assumptions as well...
IMO -> It's not protoss QQ because it's not impossible to win its just simply harder to win as protoss atm with our strats against theirs balance or no balance. If KA was the cause then a lot of game research should be done, but i honestly think it started before that with how gateway units and barracks units work cost efficiency wise.
On November 05 2011 11:49 GhostFall wrote: One of the reasons Protoss players really dislike removing KA was there literally was no time for Terrans to adapt.
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Take for example EMP. Blizzard waited for MONTHS. MONTHS of waiting to see Protoss players find a solution on their own or do things differently. Waited until there were only 5 Protoss left in the GSL Code S. Now finally they're nerfing EMP to 1.5 radius.
With KA, there was never any waiting. KA strategies were literally only being used for about 1 month. Terrans never adapted, the metagame never shifted. It was just flat out removed. Why didn't Blizzard ever wait for Terrans to try out counter strategies in TvP? Why didn't Blizzard wait until there were only 5 Terrans left in Code S before removing KA? This is why Protoss players are so bitter about KA. Because it never had a chance to be explored. Do you wanna know how many Terran still were in Code S when KA was removed? 14/32. More than Protoss. More than Zerg. More than a 1/3rd
If KA was kept, and it turned out to be OP, Protoss would not be asking for KA as much as they are now. But as it is, we'll never know.
If KA actually allowed protoss to come back from a severe deficit, wouldn't that just make the HT a 150gas mule?
On a more serious note, KA will probably never return, since Blizz stated that they are making no massive changes before HoTS, and in HoTS there are new harassment and defensive options added to protoss.
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Tanks are rarely used in TvP outside of some well known All-Ins, and some seldom used Mech-oriented strategies.
I'd argue that the Tank was balanced for TvT and TvZ. And it is from this that it has become very hard for most players to use them effectively in TvP.
So many Protoss units counter Tanks and they often become more detrimental to your own units than the oppositions. Beefy Chargelots taking Tank shots like they were nothing, causing huge splash damage to your own forces. Stalkers blinking on top of Terran's units and letting the Siege Splash wreck their Bio, or forcing Unsieges. Immortals. There's many reasons why we don't see Tanks often in TvP.
On November 05 2011 14:32 CortoMontez wrote: If KA actually allowed protoss to come back from a severe deficit, wouldn't that just make the HT a 150gas mule?
On a more serious note, KA will probably never return, since Blizz stated that they are making no massive changes before HoTS, and in HoTS there are new harassment and defensive options added to protoss.
That and the fact that Browder said in interview that KA was something they now considered to have been obviously wrong in the first place and a stupid inclusion at release.
It's sad: it suggests an attitude that they're not willing to reconsider past changes based on newer developments. Supterstartran gave an excellent example above of the sort of thing that can lead to.
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Tanks are rarely used in TvP outside of some well known All-Ins, and some seldom used Mech-oriented strategies.
I'd argue that the Tank was balanced for TvT and TvZ. And it is from this that it has become very hard for most players to use them effectively in TvP.
So many Protoss units counter Tanks and they often become more detrimental to your own units than the oppositions. Beefy Chargelots taking Tank shots like they were nothing, causing huge splash damage to your own forces. Stalkers blinking on top of Terran's units and letting the Siege Splash wreck their Bio, or forcing Unsieges. Immortals. There's many reasons why we don't see Tanks often in TvP.
I didn't say tanks. I said mech. Hellions/Thors/Tanks. And there's absolutely no way for you to say Mech doesn't work against Protoss who went KA. There's also absolutely no way for me to say Mech does work against Protoss who went KA. It's all theorycraft because no one had a chance to do anything about it. No one had a chance to use mech against KA. No one is using mech now, because why use mech when bio is just clearly better because KA doesn't exist anymore? But we can say, that statistically that Protoss is not a balanced matchup against Terran. We can say that EMP should get nerfed to 1.5 radius. Why? Because we have 7 months of data. So why don't we have 7 months of data on KA? Why was it removed so quickly?
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Tanks are rarely used in TvP outside of some well known All-Ins, and some seldom used Mech-oriented strategies.
I'd argue that the Tank was balanced for TvT and TvZ. And it is from this that it has become very hard for most players to use them effectively in TvP.
So many Protoss units counter Tanks and they often become more detrimental to your own units than the oppositions. Beefy Chargelots taking Tank shots like they were nothing, causing huge splash damage to your own forces. Stalkers blinking on top of Terran's units and letting the Siege Splash wreck their Bio, or forcing Unsieges. Immortals. There's many reasons why we don't see Tanks often in TvP.
I didn't say tanks. I said mech. Hellions/Thors/Tanks. And there's absolutely no way for you to say Mech doesn't work against Protoss who went KA. There's also absolutely no way for me to say Mech does work against Protoss who went KA. It's all theorycraft because no one had a chance to do anything about it. No one had a chance to use mech against KA. No one is using mech now, because why use mech when bio is just clearly better because KA doesn't exist anymore? But we can say, that statistically that Protoss is not a balanced matchup against Terran. We can say that EMP should get nerfed to 1.5 radius. Why? Because we have 7 months of data. So why don't we have 7 months of data on KA? Why was it removed so quickly?
You really think instant warp in with storm is balanced? Hi look, a 4k terran MMM army that just finished a fight and is in orange/yellow/red, let's just warp in 5 templars and look at that army fall to 0... It was close to impossible to push after winning a huge fight in TvP if the protoss had templar tech back in the days. Had to wait for ghosts
i think the KA removal has more implications in pvz. Mutas were manageable when you could warp in and storm, but now I feel they are really hard to deal with. Infestors and ghosts > hts :/
On November 05 2011 15:05 oxxo wrote: KA was ridiculously broken. Take a step back and look at it objectively.
Ok. Objectively. No bias. Just pure statistics. The purest objective measure we got is statistics.
KA was removed at the end of march.
The winrates for TvP in Korean tournaments was 51.5% for the Terran and 48.5% for the Protoss. At the time there were 14 Terrans/9 Protoss/9 Zerg in Code S.
After KA was removed.
The winrate for TvP in Korean tournaments favored Terran up to 61.2% to 38.8% for Protoss. It is now currently 57.7% in favor of Terran to 42.3% for Protoss Currently, there are 19 Terrans/ 5 Protoss/ 7 Zerg in Code S. Immortals have been increased to 6 range. Emp will be changed to 1.5
Tell me how else can I objectively look at it? This is just pure statistics. No bias. I am just telling you the numbers. Edit - This is a serious question. I am not asking flippantly. How else can I look at it objectively?
Edit #2: I'll also look at it objectively from the Zerg side. Before KA removal The winrates for ZvP in Korean tournaments was 55.8% for the Protoss and 44.2% for the Zerg. After KA removal: Currently the winrate for ZvP in Korean tournaments is 59.2% for the Zerg and 40.8% for the Protoss. Zerg has recieved a Fungal buff in damage, nerf in duration, buff in ability to stop stalkers from blinking.
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Tanks are rarely used in TvP outside of some well known All-Ins, and some seldom used Mech-oriented strategies.
I'd argue that the Tank was balanced for TvT and TvZ. And it is from this that it has become very hard for most players to use them effectively in TvP.
So many Protoss units counter Tanks and they often become more detrimental to your own units than the oppositions. Beefy Chargelots taking Tank shots like they were nothing, causing huge splash damage to your own forces. Stalkers blinking on top of Terran's units and letting the Siege Splash wreck their Bio, or forcing Unsieges. Immortals. There's many reasons why we don't see Tanks often in TvP.
I didn't say tanks. I said mech. Hellions/Thors/Tanks. And there's absolutely no way for you to say Mech doesn't work against Protoss who went KA. There's also absolutely no way for me to say Mech does work against Protoss who went KA. It's all theorycraft because no one had a chance to do anything about it. No one had a chance to use mech against KA. No one is using mech now, because why use mech when bio is just clearly better because KA doesn't exist anymore? But we can say, that statistically that Protoss is not a balanced matchup against Terran. We can say that EMP should get nerfed to 1.5 radius. Why? Because we have 7 months of data. So why don't we have 7 months of data on KA? Why was it removed so quickly?
You really think instant warp in with storm is balanced? Hi look, a 4k terran MMM army that just finished a fight and is in orange/yellow/red, let's just warp in 5 templars and look at that army fall to 0... It was close to impossible to push after winning a huge fight in TvP if the protoss had templar tech back in the days. Had to wait for ghosts
I don't think instant warp in with storm is balanced. I don't think instant warp in storm is overpowered either. I am saying there was no data backing up either conclusion. And before any data was gathered, it was removed. Why? EMP only got changed after 7 months of data. That is the much more correct way of balancing things. So why was KA removed after 1 month?
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Tanks are rarely used in TvP outside of some well known All-Ins, and some seldom used Mech-oriented strategies.
I'd argue that the Tank was balanced for TvT and TvZ. And it is from this that it has become very hard for most players to use them effectively in TvP.
So many Protoss units counter Tanks and they often become more detrimental to your own units than the oppositions. Beefy Chargelots taking Tank shots like they were nothing, causing huge splash damage to your own forces. Stalkers blinking on top of Terran's units and letting the Siege Splash wreck their Bio, or forcing Unsieges. Immortals. There's many reasons why we don't see Tanks often in TvP.
I didn't say tanks. I said mech. Hellions/Thors/Tanks. And there's absolutely no way for you to say Mech doesn't work against Protoss who went KA. There's also absolutely no way for me to say Mech does work against Protoss who went KA. It's all theorycraft because no one had a chance to do anything about it. No one had a chance to use mech against KA. No one is using mech now, because why use mech when bio is just clearly better because KA doesn't exist anymore? But we can say, that statistically that Protoss is not a balanced matchup against Terran. We can say that EMP should get nerfed to 1.5 radius. Why? Because we have 7 months of data. So why don't we have 7 months of data on KA? Why was it removed so quickly?
You really think instant warp in with storm is balanced? Hi look, a 4k terran MMM army that just finished a fight and is in orange/yellow/red, let's just warp in 5 templars and look at that army fall to 0... It was close to impossible to push after winning a huge fight in TvP if the protoss had templar tech back in the days. Had to wait for ghosts
I don't think instant warp in with storm is balanced. I don't think instant warp in storm is overpowered either. I am saying there was no data backing up either conclusion. And before any data was gathered, it was removed. Why? EMP only got changed after 7 months of data. That is the much more correct way of balancing things. So why was KA removed after 1 month?
I'm not trying to be snarky here but wasn't KA removed after the 1.3 patch was implemented? That was live in March, 2011. SCII came out in July, 2010. That was 8 months, not the 1 month you're claiming.
As for your arguments on KA. Nothing has changed for Storms at all in the game. The spell itself has been left the same. The only thing that has changed now is that Protoss requires a bit more foresight and planning when using HighTemplars for Storms.
You're talking as if KA was an entire tech path, unit-composition or strategy.
Also in your example. You said "See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere." Meaning Tanks.
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Tanks are rarely used in TvP outside of some well known All-Ins, and some seldom used Mech-oriented strategies.
I'd argue that the Tank was balanced for TvT and TvZ. And it is from this that it has become very hard for most players to use them effectively in TvP.
So many Protoss units counter Tanks and they often become more detrimental to your own units than the oppositions. Beefy Chargelots taking Tank shots like they were nothing, causing huge splash damage to your own forces. Stalkers blinking on top of Terran's units and letting the Siege Splash wreck their Bio, or forcing Unsieges. Immortals. There's many reasons why we don't see Tanks often in TvP.
I didn't say tanks. I said mech. Hellions/Thors/Tanks. And there's absolutely no way for you to say Mech doesn't work against Protoss who went KA. There's also absolutely no way for me to say Mech does work against Protoss who went KA. It's all theorycraft because no one had a chance to do anything about it. No one had a chance to use mech against KA. No one is using mech now, because why use mech when bio is just clearly better because KA doesn't exist anymore? But we can say, that statistically that Protoss is not a balanced matchup against Terran. We can say that EMP should get nerfed to 1.5 radius. Why? Because we have 7 months of data. So why don't we have 7 months of data on KA? Why was it removed so quickly?
You really think instant warp in with storm is balanced? Hi look, a 4k terran MMM army that just finished a fight and is in orange/yellow/red, let's just warp in 5 templars and look at that army fall to 0... It was close to impossible to push after winning a huge fight in TvP if the protoss had templar tech back in the days. Had to wait for ghosts
I don't think instant warp in with storm is balanced. I don't think instant warp in storm is overpowered either. I am saying there was no data backing up either conclusion. And before any data was gathered, it was removed. Why? EMP only got changed after 7 months of data. That is the much more correct way of balancing things. So why was KA removed after 1 month?
I'm not trying to be snarky here but wasn't KA removed after the 1.3 patch was implemented? That was live in March, 2011. SCII came out in July, 2010. That was 8 months, not the 1 month you're claiming.
It was in the game since launch. But the first time we saw heavily based KA strategies in GSL was 1 month before it was removed. KA was researched of course, but the first time we saw strategies based around getting KA was approximately 1 month before. This was because Collosus strategies completely dominated and overshadowed KA strategies. It is similiar to how we only started to see Infestor strategies a couple months after the "deathball months" because roach/hydra/corruptor was the current dominant strategy. Finding good viable strategies take a long time. That's why it is important to spend time on big changes like nerfing EMP or something like removing an upgrade.
Edit: I am also incorrect in saying we have 7 months of data on EMP. We have about 4-5 months of data for EMP, because heavy ghost strategies only started appearing in tournaments around that time.
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Tanks are rarely used in TvP outside of some well known All-Ins, and some seldom used Mech-oriented strategies.
I'd argue that the Tank was balanced for TvT and TvZ. And it is from this that it has become very hard for most players to use them effectively in TvP.
So many Protoss units counter Tanks and they often become more detrimental to your own units than the oppositions. Beefy Chargelots taking Tank shots like they were nothing, causing huge splash damage to your own forces. Stalkers blinking on top of Terran's units and letting the Siege Splash wreck their Bio, or forcing Unsieges. Immortals. There's many reasons why we don't see Tanks often in TvP.
I didn't say tanks. I said mech. Hellions/Thors/Tanks. And there's absolutely no way for you to say Mech doesn't work against Protoss who went KA. There's also absolutely no way for me to say Mech does work against Protoss who went KA. It's all theorycraft because no one had a chance to do anything about it. No one had a chance to use mech against KA. No one is using mech now, because why use mech when bio is just clearly better because KA doesn't exist anymore? But we can say, that statistically that Protoss is not a balanced matchup against Terran. We can say that EMP should get nerfed to 1.5 radius. Why? Because we have 7 months of data. So why don't we have 7 months of data on KA? Why was it removed so quickly?
You really think instant warp in with storm is balanced? Hi look, a 4k terran MMM army that just finished a fight and is in orange/yellow/red, let's just warp in 5 templars and look at that army fall to 0... It was close to impossible to push after winning a huge fight in TvP if the protoss had templar tech back in the days. Had to wait for ghosts
I don't think instant warp in with storm is balanced. I don't think instant warp in storm is overpowered either. I am saying there was no data backing up either conclusion. And before any data was gathered, it was removed. Why? EMP only got changed after 7 months of data. That is the much more correct way of balancing things. So why was KA removed after 1 month?
I'm not trying to be snarky here but wasn't KA removed after the 1.3 patch was implemented? That was live in March, 2011. SCII came out in July, 2010. That was 8 months, not the 1 month you're claiming.
It was in the game since launch. But the first time we heavily based KA strategies in GSL was 1 month before it was removed. KA was researched of course, but the first time we saw strategies based around getting KA was approximately 1 month before. This was because Collosus strategies completely dominated and overshadowed KA strategies.
Seeing as David Kim has said that he doesn't keep up with GSL that much, we can't say that Blizzard only took 1 month in analyzing the data when they're looking at BNet info.
And again as posted in my edit, the only KA strategy you can really refer to is Storm Drops. Other than that, Psi-Storms have remained the same. Nothing has changed with the spell itself, just how fast you can get it. Now it just requires Protoss to have some more foresight and prepare beforehand.
There was something off with Protoss players being able to fly an empty low-risk Mineral only Transport, and then warp in 2 Templars when they hit the Mineral lines. KA just didn't fit in well with the Warp-In mechanic.
This is just my opinion, but I don't believe looking at data that isn't from the top level of competition is worth factoring into balance.
I mean it is important to look at lower levels to double check stuff isn't blowing up. And to make sure something isn't ridiculously hard to do. But overall, I don't see much point at looking at Bnet info.
Seeing protoss win games solely on the fact that they could warp in multiple HT's with storm was pretty stupid if you ask me. You'd see a Terran win numerous big fights in the late game yet the protoss couldn't be touched because of mass zealot/HT warp-ins that would keep the game alive when in reality it shouldn't have.
I'd be more than happy to see KA back if they tuned the upgrade so that warp-in storms weren't available straight off the bat but possibly so that it's a cheaper upgrade with a smaller return. I'm sure that'd help protoss greatly without making them far too strong and it'd strengthen them in the current state where they're a bit too weak vs Terran.
The problem for Blizzard was not statistics or winrates, I believe, it was more of a design thing. They don't want warp in storms in their games, balanced or not, as well as they don't want mass thors in TvP, balanced or not. So they nerf and they try to buff other things (well they did that too late, Protoss is now pratically extinct in GSL).
As a protoss player, I think that it kinda killed the High templar compared to beastly infestors and godly ghosts. Honestly, nerfing KA to +15 or even +10 would have been fine instead of +25, I don't know why they removed it altogether. They should buff other things on the HT, like speed, range, storm radius or something, it's clearly the weakest caster.
If it was a design decision I can understand that. If they don't want to see warp-in storms balanced or not, then it achieved that effect.
But in terms of balance there were so many things that could be done. I liked incontrol's suggestion on sotg once, "When high templar warp in, have storm have a cooldown so you couldn't storm immediately, but you still had the energy."
Of course he then said, "Blizzard is never going to put that in the game because I came up with it."
From reading many of the replies, it seems that one of the main reasons that people are claiming that KA was OP is because it could beat bio cost-efficiently in combination with zealots. This suggests that rather than KA being imbalanced, it simply means that against a protoss going HT zealot, the terran will need to make... hellions!
Warp-in storms are hardly useful against a unit which can dodge them so easily, and hellions roast the entire HT/zealot composition.
On November 05 2011 13:36 Fig wrote: We will never truly know if KA was overpowered or balanced in PvT. This is because at the time, tosses were using HTs, but terrans were just starting to utilize ghosts when KA was taken out. We never really got to see how superb ghost micro would play out against KA.
I mean think about it this way. What if terrans had started using ghosts before protosses had tried HTs? Blizzard very well might have taken out ghosts' energy upgrade instead, and then spent the rest of their days trying to buff terran and nerf toss to get the matchup back to 50/50.
I think the reason that HTs were used before ghosts was because the main function of HTs remained the same from BW, whereas the role of the ghost in BW was very different. That familiarity may have been played the biggest part in HTs eventually losing KA.
This sums up my thoughts perfectly. I was one of the early adopters of KA, and yes, it felt kinda broken, but it was the only cost effective way to deal with 2 medivac drops in the midgame, because 8 marauders destroy any composition of a midgame warp in (6-8 gates) of gateway units built if microed and are guaranteed damage whether the Protoss scouts it or not since they can snipe buildings so fast. Near the end of KA being used, I did start to see Terrans actually using ghosts to deal with Templar and it worked insanely well but we never got to play with the matchup enough to see if it solved the issue. And then after the patch most Terrans just went blind vikings because they new we had no AoE options other than colossus.
It's so frustrating how Blizzard says they need to take their time with dealing with the 1/1/1 and ghosts, when they outright removed so many options for Protoss a year ago without even seeing what would happen with the metagame and left us with so few options.
I'd rather they got rid of warpgate and made gateway units cost effective, which would also allow KA back.
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Tanks are rarely used in TvP outside of some well known All-Ins, and some seldom used Mech-oriented strategies.
I'd argue that the Tank was balanced for TvT and TvZ. And it is from this that it has become very hard for most players to use them effectively in TvP.
So many Protoss units counter Tanks and they often become more detrimental to your own units than the oppositions. Beefy Chargelots taking Tank shots like they were nothing, causing huge splash damage to your own forces. Stalkers blinking on top of Terran's units and letting the Siege Splash wreck their Bio, or forcing Unsieges. Immortals. There's many reasons why we don't see Tanks often in TvP.
I didn't say tanks. I said mech. Hellions/Thors/Tanks. And there's absolutely no way for you to say Mech doesn't work against Protoss who went KA. There's also absolutely no way for me to say Mech does work against Protoss who went KA. It's all theorycraft because no one had a chance to do anything about it. No one had a chance to use mech against KA. No one is using mech now, because why use mech when bio is just clearly better because KA doesn't exist anymore? But we can say, that statistically that Protoss is not a balanced matchup against Terran. We can say that EMP should get nerfed to 1.5 radius. Why? Because we have 7 months of data. So why don't we have 7 months of data on KA? Why was it removed so quickly?
You really think instant warp in with storm is balanced? Hi look, a 4k terran MMM army that just finished a fight and is in orange/yellow/red, let's just warp in 5 templars and look at that army fall to 0... It was close to impossible to push after winning a huge fight in TvP if the protoss had templar tech back in the days. Had to wait for ghosts
Come on, that is not an argument. It is the same as me saying that "LOL that MMM army will still be in green if they just EMP'd. With EMP Protoss loses 50% of their units' health instantly and can't cast spells either, storm just does damage, how's that for balance?"
On November 05 2011 16:01 CortoMontez wrote: From reading many of the replies, it seems that one of the main reasons that people are claiming that KA was OP is because it could beat bio cost-efficiently in combination with zealots. This suggests that rather than KA being imbalanced, it simply means that against a protoss going HT zealot, the terran will need to make... battle hellions!
Warp-in storms are hardly useful against a unit which can dodge them so easily, and hellions roast the entire HT/zealot composition.
On November 05 2011 15:05 oxxo wrote: KA was ridiculously broken. Take a step back and look at it objectively.
Ok. Objectively. No bias. Just pure statistics. The purest objective measure we got is statistics.
KA was removed at the end of march.
The winrates for TvP in Korean tournaments was 51.5% for the Terran and 48.5% for the Protoss. At the time there were 14 Terrans/9 Protoss/9 Zerg in Code S.
After KA was removed.
The winrate for TvP in Korean tournaments favored Terran up to 61.2% to 38.8% for Protoss. It is now currently 57.7% in favor of Terran to 42.3% for Protoss Currently, there are 19 Terrans/ 5 Protoss/ 7 Zerg in Code S. Immortals have been increased to 6 range. Emp will be changed to 1.5
Tell me how else can I objectively look at it? This is just pure statistics. No bias. I am just telling you the numbers. Edit - This is a serious question. I am not asking flippantly. How else can I look at it objectively?
Edit #2: I'll also look at it objectively from the Zerg side. Before KA removal The winrates for ZvP in Korean tournaments was 55.8% for the Protoss and 44.2% for the Zerg. After KA removal: Currently the winrate for ZvP in Korean tournaments is 59.2% for the Zerg and 40.8% for the Protoss. Zerg has recieved a Fungal buff in damage, nerf in duration, buff in ability to stop stalkers from blinking.
There's nothing objective about using limited data.
Despite the common Protoss rhetoric GSL is not the only tournament out there and believe it or not, Protoss actually fare very well outside of the GSL.
Of course when Huk wins MLG every Protoss on SotG immediately claims it has nothing to do with the race and everything to do with the player. Yet when Genius, San, MC and Anypro bomb out of Code S through awful, terrible play it's somehow not the singer but the song.
P.S. Heck, Protoss even does well in Code A. They just get (rightfully) eliminated from Code S and all of a sudden Tosses think they have a right to complain about the removal of blindingly-obviously broken spells.
KA was the closest SC2 ever got to an instant win button. Of course it was nerfed.
On November 05 2011 15:05 oxxo wrote: KA was ridiculously broken. Take a step back and look at it objectively.
Ok. Objectively. No bias. Just pure statistics. The purest objective measure we got is statistics.
KA was removed at the end of march.
The winrates for TvP in Korean tournaments was 51.5% for the Terran and 48.5% for the Protoss. At the time there were 14 Terrans/9 Protoss/9 Zerg in Code S.
After KA was removed.
The winrate for TvP in Korean tournaments favored Terran up to 61.2% to 38.8% for Protoss. It is now currently 57.7% in favor of Terran to 42.3% for Protoss Currently, there are 19 Terrans/ 5 Protoss/ 7 Zerg in Code S. Immortals have been increased to 6 range. Emp will be changed to 1.5
Tell me how else can I objectively look at it? This is just pure statistics. No bias. I am just telling you the numbers. Edit - This is a serious question. I am not asking flippantly. How else can I look at it objectively?
Edit #2: I'll also look at it objectively from the Zerg side. Before KA removal The winrates for ZvP in Korean tournaments was 55.8% for the Protoss and 44.2% for the Zerg. After KA removal: Currently the winrate for ZvP in Korean tournaments is 59.2% for the Zerg and 40.8% for the Protoss. Zerg has recieved a Fungal buff in damage, nerf in duration, buff in ability to stop stalkers from blinking.
There's nothing objective about using limited data.
Despite the common Protoss rhetoric GSL is not the only tournament out there and believe it or not, Protoss actually fare very well outside of the GSL.
Of course when Huk wins MLG every Protoss on SotG immediately claims it has nothing to do with the race and everything to do with the player. Yet when Genius, San, MC and Anypro bomb out of Code S through awful, terrible play it's somehow not the singer but the song.
P.S. Heck, Protoss even does well in Code A. They just get (rightfully) eliminated from Code S and all of a sudden Tosses think they have a right to complain about the removal of blindingly-obviously broken spells.
That data is drawn from ALL tournaments listed from TLPD for Korea. Not just GSL. Not just MLG. But all tournaments. What else can I use? Like do you want me to use non Korean tournament data as well?
In which case it is PvT was 49.6% for Protoss versus 50.4% before KA removal. Now it is currently 52.8% for Terran vs the 47.2% of Protoss
Obviously, there are tons of factors that go into these winrates. Not just the KA removal. But do any of these numbers indicate enough data to have removed KA? Again, my argument is neither for or against the OPness of KA. Just why was it removed so quickly in comparison to EMP which took months to change? KA was removed when PvT showed a 50/50 split. EMP was nerfed only after months of data indicating a statistical imbalance for Terran. Why the disparity? This disparity is why you constantly see these "Bring back KA threads every couple of weeks" from protoss players.
Even though I'm not entirely convinced that KA should come back in its original form, I'm baffled at the argument most terrans are making: that a terran should be able to punish a protoss heavily after winning an engagement.
I never ever attack into a terran base after winning a battle. why? because I know that he's going to have an army waiting there if not also a planetary. In fact, in most games I win, the terran ggs before I've even set foot inside their base after I've drained their resources. Maybe terran bio shouldn't be able to run into a protoss base with orange hp and wreak havoc. I mean storm can only do so much. If the terran does indeed crush the protoss and has a ton of green marauders left, KA isn't going to save the protoss. But if the bio units are indeed in the orange and about to die from a few storms (terran can still dodge the storms too), that means that the protoss wasn't completely hopeless in the preceding battle and maybe deserves to be able to defend his bases (and terran always has the option to fall back and save his units).
On November 05 2011 15:05 oxxo wrote: KA was ridiculously broken. Take a step back and look at it objectively.
Ok. Objectively. No bias. Just pure statistics. The purest objective measure we got is statistics.
KA was removed at the end of march.
The winrates for TvP in Korean tournaments was 51.5% for the Terran and 48.5% for the Protoss. At the time there were 14 Terrans/9 Protoss/9 Zerg in Code S.
After KA was removed.
The winrate for TvP in Korean tournaments favored Terran up to 61.2% to 38.8% for Protoss. It is now currently 57.7% in favor of Terran to 42.3% for Protoss Currently, there are 19 Terrans/ 5 Protoss/ 7 Zerg in Code S. Immortals have been increased to 6 range. Emp will be changed to 1.5
Tell me how else can I objectively look at it? This is just pure statistics. No bias. I am just telling you the numbers. Edit - This is a serious question. I am not asking flippantly. How else can I look at it objectively?
Edit #2: I'll also look at it objectively from the Zerg side. Before KA removal The winrates for ZvP in Korean tournaments was 55.8% for the Protoss and 44.2% for the Zerg. After KA removal: Currently the winrate for ZvP in Korean tournaments is 59.2% for the Zerg and 40.8% for the Protoss. Zerg has recieved a Fungal buff in damage, nerf in duration, buff in ability to stop stalkers from blinking.
There's nothing objective about using limited data.
Despite the common Protoss rhetoric GSL is not the only tournament out there and believe it or not, Protoss actually fare very well outside of the GSL.
Of course when Huk wins MLG every Protoss on SotG immediately claims it has nothing to do with the race and everything to do with the player. Yet when Genius, San, MC and Anypro bomb out of Code S through awful, terrible play it's somehow not the singer but the song.
P.S. Heck, Protoss even does well in Code A. They just get (rightfully) eliminated from Code S and all of a sudden Tosses think they have a right to complain about the removal of blindingly-obviously broken spells.
KA was the closest SC2 ever got to an instant win button. Of course it was nerfed.
Just reading the second part made me laugh.
HuK, one man, becomes the first repeat MLG champion and only foreigner to win since the korean invites began. However, 4 players fall out of GSL code S because they slump, play bad, or whatever excuse people come up with and those events are thought of as equal?
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
Because wiping out mineral lines with blue flame hellions is so much harder, right? This argument is inane.
On November 05 2011 15:05 oxxo wrote: KA was ridiculously broken. Take a step back and look at it objectively.
Ok. Objectively. No bias. Just pure statistics. The purest objective measure we got is statistics.
KA was removed at the end of march.
The winrates for TvP in Korean tournaments was 51.5% for the Terran and 48.5% for the Protoss. At the time there were 14 Terrans/9 Protoss/9 Zerg in Code S.
After KA was removed.
The winrate for TvP in Korean tournaments favored Terran up to 61.2% to 38.8% for Protoss. It is now currently 57.7% in favor of Terran to 42.3% for Protoss Currently, there are 19 Terrans/ 5 Protoss/ 7 Zerg in Code S. Immortals have been increased to 6 range. Emp will be changed to 1.5
Tell me how else can I objectively look at it? This is just pure statistics. No bias. I am just telling you the numbers. Edit - This is a serious question. I am not asking flippantly. How else can I look at it objectively?
Edit #2: I'll also look at it objectively from the Zerg side. Before KA removal The winrates for ZvP in Korean tournaments was 55.8% for the Protoss and 44.2% for the Zerg. After KA removal: Currently the winrate for ZvP in Korean tournaments is 59.2% for the Zerg and 40.8% for the Protoss. Zerg has recieved a Fungal buff in damage, nerf in duration, buff in ability to stop stalkers from blinking.
The meta game changes so fast. Attributing everything that has happened since KA removal, because of the KA removal, is ridiculous. In this time span Zerg figured out how to be really aggressive in the early game and not have to deal with late game death balls as much. Terran figured out the 1-1-1 was an insta win until the most recent patches. Terrans started making ghosts, lots of them, in both MU's
I didn't realize Protoss had such a hard on for KA. But you guys are blinded by your feelings and current frustration. Some things are clearly imbalanced and obvious. Mass reapers vs Zerg - insta-nurfed. 1 supply roaches was obviously broken and insta-nurfed. Once Blue flame became popular it was obvious there was a problem and insta-nurf.
KA was the same thing. It was so obviously broken. You could not advance after a decisive battle cause you'd get stormed to death. So you'd have to stand there, wait 40 seconds for your ghost to build, then god knows how long to get a couple across the map. Its absurd.
It's comical that people are defending it. KA may very well have been covering up weaknesses in Protoss that we didn't know existed, but its also possible these weaknesses would show themselves anyway just KA removal sped up the process. Even still, arguing for a clearly imbalanced ability, because its removal shed light on the real weaknesses in protoss is totally flawed logic.
I wouldn't be surprised if in 6 months Terran were bitching cause their race was doing shitty. Wasn't MVP complaining 6-8 months ago that Terran was the worst race, had shitty late game, couldn't compete on larger maps? How fast things change.
Toss is in a Code 'S' slump. It'll be fine in a couple months.
I think KA should be brought back. Yes it was good, but it created a nice dynamic between HTs and Ghosts, and it forced the Terran to actually consider doing something other than just making a bioball. PvT is the most stagnant matchup in terms of unit compositions right now, because bio is the best answer to everything Protoss can make.
If it is brought back then what's the worst thing that can happen? If we somehow end up in a situation with 19 Protoss and 5 Terrans in Code S, then it could be reconsidered. But we all know that would never happen, Protoss would get the shit nerfed out of it in other ways before things ever reached that level...
On November 05 2011 15:05 oxxo wrote: KA was ridiculously broken. Take a step back and look at it objectively.
Ok. Objectively. No bias. Just pure statistics. The purest objective measure we got is statistics.
KA was removed at the end of march.
The winrates for TvP in Korean tournaments was 51.5% for the Terran and 48.5% for the Protoss. At the time there were 14 Terrans/9 Protoss/9 Zerg in Code S.
After KA was removed.
The winrate for TvP in Korean tournaments favored Terran up to 61.2% to 38.8% for Protoss. It is now currently 57.7% in favor of Terran to 42.3% for Protoss Currently, there are 19 Terrans/ 5 Protoss/ 7 Zerg in Code S. Immortals have been increased to 6 range. Emp will be changed to 1.5
Tell me how else can I objectively look at it? This is just pure statistics. No bias. I am just telling you the numbers. Edit - This is a serious question. I am not asking flippantly. How else can I look at it objectively?
Edit #2: I'll also look at it objectively from the Zerg side. Before KA removal The winrates for ZvP in Korean tournaments was 55.8% for the Protoss and 44.2% for the Zerg. After KA removal: Currently the winrate for ZvP in Korean tournaments is 59.2% for the Zerg and 40.8% for the Protoss. Zerg has recieved a Fungal buff in damage, nerf in duration, buff in ability to stop stalkers from blinking.
There's nothing objective about using limited data.
Despite the common Protoss rhetoric GSL is not the only tournament out there and believe it or not, Protoss actually fare very well outside of the GSL.
Of course when Huk wins MLG every Protoss on SotG immediately claims it has nothing to do with the race and everything to do with the player. Yet when Genius, San, MC and Anypro bomb out of Code S through awful, terrible play it's somehow not the singer but the song.
P.S. Heck, Protoss even does well in Code A. They just get (rightfully) eliminated from Code S and all of a sudden Tosses think they have a right to complain about the removal of blindingly-obviously broken spells.
KA was the closest SC2 ever got to an instant win button. Of course it was nerfed.
First of all, balance matters at the most at the very top because that's where all the money's at. MLG Orlando, which Huk won, has only a $5,000 first place prize (compared to $50,000 for GSL Code S and Blizzcon). I'd be hard pressed to see a Protoss winning MLG Providence.
And for people saying that instant storm is broken because it takes away skill and factor of preparedness, that's true. But when you consider how ridiculous fast stimmed marauder can take out a Nexus (marauder also didn't exist in bw btw), it all of a sudden seems much more necessary.
There's also the issue with mech (remember, bio is supposed to be vulnerable to splash) not really being viable against Protoss due to Blizzard's awesome idea to not give either Dark Swarm or lurker to Zerg, which made mid-to-late-game TvZ massive lopsided in Terran's favor, until they nerfed the shit out of Siege Tank. If Siege Tank still does 60 dmg a shot I'd imagine it being a perfectly awesome fit for a Terran's army against Protoss, with Ghost to help emp Immortals and Zealots, etc, and maybe some vikings if the siege tanks don't already kill Colossus fast enough.
And another thing to keep in mind, Protoss didn't have warp-in in BW, but Terran also didn't have PFs and Sensor Tower, nor Zerg with creep speed bonus.
On November 05 2011 15:05 oxxo wrote: KA was ridiculously broken. Take a step back and look at it objectively.
Ok. Objectively. No bias. Just pure statistics. The purest objective measure we got is statistics.
KA was removed at the end of march.
The winrates for TvP in Korean tournaments was 51.5% for the Terran and 48.5% for the Protoss. At the time there were 14 Terrans/9 Protoss/9 Zerg in Code S.
After KA was removed.
The winrate for TvP in Korean tournaments favored Terran up to 61.2% to 38.8% for Protoss. It is now currently 57.7% in favor of Terran to 42.3% for Protoss Currently, there are 19 Terrans/ 5 Protoss/ 7 Zerg in Code S. Immortals have been increased to 6 range. Emp will be changed to 1.5
Tell me how else can I objectively look at it? This is just pure statistics. No bias. I am just telling you the numbers. Edit - This is a serious question. I am not asking flippantly. How else can I look at it objectively?
Edit #2: I'll also look at it objectively from the Zerg side. Before KA removal The winrates for ZvP in Korean tournaments was 55.8% for the Protoss and 44.2% for the Zerg. After KA removal: Currently the winrate for ZvP in Korean tournaments is 59.2% for the Zerg and 40.8% for the Protoss. Zerg has recieved a Fungal buff in damage, nerf in duration, buff in ability to stop stalkers from blinking.
There's nothing objective about using limited data.
Despite the common Protoss rhetoric GSL is not the only tournament out there and believe it or not, Protoss actually fare very well outside of the GSL.
Of course when Huk wins MLG every Protoss on SotG immediately claims it has nothing to do with the race and everything to do with the player. Yet when Genius, San, MC and Anypro bomb out of Code S through awful, terrible play it's somehow not the singer but the song.
P.S. Heck, Protoss even does well in Code A. They just get (rightfully) eliminated from Code S and all of a sudden Tosses think they have a right to complain about the removal of blindingly-obviously broken spells.
That data is drawn from ALL tournaments listed from TLPD for Korea. Not just GSL. Not just MLG. But all tournaments. What else can I use? Like do you want me to use non Korean tournament data as well?
In which case it is PvT was 49.6% for Protoss versus 50.4% before KA removal. Now it is currently 52.8% for Terran vs the 47.2% of Protoss
Obviously, there are tons of factors that go into these winrates. But do any of these numbers indicate enough data to have removed KA? Again, my argument is neither for or against the OPness of KA. Just why was it removed so quickly in comparison to EMP which took months to change? KA was removed when PvT showed a 50/50 split. EMP was nerfed only after months of data indicating a statistical imbalance for Terran. Why the disparity? This disparity is why you constantly see these "Bring back KA threads every couple of weeks" from protoss players.
Mr I give you numbers. How long does an infestor take to hatch? How long does a ghost take to recruit? How long pre-KA nerf was a HT sitting there to get enough energy for a storm?
There is your answer. Instantly warping in a unit without having to wait for energy to casts its 'major' spell was broken, fullstop. A protoss could hold off an entire marine medivac ball that survived the slaughter of the protoss army, so the marines and medivacs were already hurt.. then you barrel into the natural only to find your army gets taken out as soon as the warpgates were off of cd. Or wait! What about that group of marine medivac that were holding fort, just barely, after surviving every storm the HT could do? Wait it's not over yet!
What race had a spell caster who could impact the game so heavily? Warpgates removed it's weakness all together(speed), some might say that the health of it is it's weakness, but that's pretty much for every caster.
Also everyone is forgetting that the HT can morph into an archon after it's energy is depleted, essentially recycling the unit. So it's a useful unit overall. Removing the KA has only put the HT back on the board as a balanced unit. It's not overpowered like it was, and it's definitely not underpowered as it is now. Sorry that you Protoss have to play the game of equals, of waiting for enough energy to engage.
On November 05 2011 15:05 oxxo wrote: KA was ridiculously broken. Take a step back and look at it objectively.
Ok. Objectively. No bias. Just pure statistics. The purest objective measure we got is statistics.
KA was removed at the end of march.
The winrates for TvP in Korean tournaments was 51.5% for the Terran and 48.5% for the Protoss. At the time there were 14 Terrans/9 Protoss/9 Zerg in Code S.
After KA was removed.
The winrate for TvP in Korean tournaments favored Terran up to 61.2% to 38.8% for Protoss. It is now currently 57.7% in favor of Terran to 42.3% for Protoss Currently, there are 19 Terrans/ 5 Protoss/ 7 Zerg in Code S. Immortals have been increased to 6 range. Emp will be changed to 1.5
Tell me how else can I objectively look at it? This is just pure statistics. No bias. I am just telling you the numbers. Edit - This is a serious question. I am not asking flippantly. How else can I look at it objectively?
Edit #2: I'll also look at it objectively from the Zerg side. Before KA removal The winrates for ZvP in Korean tournaments was 55.8% for the Protoss and 44.2% for the Zerg. After KA removal: Currently the winrate for ZvP in Korean tournaments is 59.2% for the Zerg and 40.8% for the Protoss. Zerg has recieved a Fungal buff in damage, nerf in duration, buff in ability to stop stalkers from blinking.
The meta game changes so fast. Attributing everything that has happened since KA removal, because of the KA removal, is ridiculous. In this time span Zerg figured out how to be really aggressive in the early game and not have to deal with late game death balls as much. Terran figured out the 1-1-1 was an insta win until the most recent patches. Terrans started making ghosts, lots of them, in both MU's
I didn't realize Protoss had such a hard on for KA. But you guys are blinded by your feelings and current frustration. Some things are clearly imbalanced and obvious. Mass reapers vs Zerg - insta-nurfed. 1 supply roaches was obviously broken and insta-nurfed. Once Blue flame became popular it was obvious there was a problem and insta-nurf.
In one of my posts I specifically said, there were tons of factors that went into those winrates. OBviously, it would be ridiculous to attribute the winrates solely on the removal of KA. But, where was the data to show KA was obviously imbalanced? KA was removed when the PvT matchup was 50/50. There was not enough data to indicate it was balanced. There was not enough data to indicate it was overpowered. So why the change so quickly?
There was months of data on mass reapers vs Zerg. And Blue Flame Hellions is another one of those changes I absolutely believe should not have been nerfed until more data was collected. For exactly the same reason I don't believe KA should've been removed.
On November 05 2011 15:05 oxxo wrote: KA was ridiculously broken. Take a step back and look at it objectively.
Ok. Objectively. No bias. Just pure statistics. The purest objective measure we got is statistics.
KA was removed at the end of march.
The winrates for TvP in Korean tournaments was 51.5% for the Terran and 48.5% for the Protoss. At the time there were 14 Terrans/9 Protoss/9 Zerg in Code S.
After KA was removed.
The winrate for TvP in Korean tournaments favored Terran up to 61.2% to 38.8% for Protoss. It is now currently 57.7% in favor of Terran to 42.3% for Protoss Currently, there are 19 Terrans/ 5 Protoss/ 7 Zerg in Code S. Immortals have been increased to 6 range. Emp will be changed to 1.5
Tell me how else can I objectively look at it? This is just pure statistics. No bias. I am just telling you the numbers. Edit - This is a serious question. I am not asking flippantly. How else can I look at it objectively?
Edit #2: I'll also look at it objectively from the Zerg side. Before KA removal The winrates for ZvP in Korean tournaments was 55.8% for the Protoss and 44.2% for the Zerg. After KA removal: Currently the winrate for ZvP in Korean tournaments is 59.2% for the Zerg and 40.8% for the Protoss. Zerg has recieved a Fungal buff in damage, nerf in duration, buff in ability to stop stalkers from blinking.
There's nothing objective about using limited data.
Despite the common Protoss rhetoric GSL is not the only tournament out there and believe it or not, Protoss actually fare very well outside of the GSL.
Of course when Huk wins MLG every Protoss on SotG immediately claims it has nothing to do with the race and everything to do with the player. Yet when Genius, San, MC and Anypro bomb out of Code S through awful, terrible play it's somehow not the singer but the song.
P.S. Heck, Protoss even does well in Code A. They just get (rightfully) eliminated from Code S and all of a sudden Tosses think they have a right to complain about the removal of blindingly-obviously broken spells.
That data is drawn from ALL tournaments listed from TLPD for Korea. Not just GSL. Not just MLG. But all tournaments. What else can I use?
Using win stats to dictate balance makes as much sense as using population to determine prosperity. Balance is much more nuanced.
I really hope tosses aren't so biased that they don't recognize that the Korean Terrans are leagues above the Korean Tosses. San Zenith was garbage. SC is by far the stronger player.
Even when Trickster was eliminated from Code S some of his biggest fans had to admit that he didn't belong there.
Using win stats to dictate balance makes as much sense as using population to determine prosperity. Balance is much more nuanced.
I really hope tosses aren't so biased that they don't recognize that the Korean Terrans are leagues above the Korean Tosses. San Zenith was garbage. SC is by far the stronger player.
Even when Trickster was eliminated from Code S some of his biggest fans had to admit that he didn't belong there.
It's incredible what arguments Terrans will come up with to justify that either of their matchups are balanced. Not only is what you said ridiculous, given that Korean Ps practice just as hard as Korean Ts, it is impossible to prove. Please stop throwing the science of statistics out the window every time it doesn't agree with you.
On November 05 2011 15:05 oxxo wrote: KA was ridiculously broken. Take a step back and look at it objectively.
Ok. Objectively. No bias. Just pure statistics. The purest objective measure we got is statistics.
KA was removed at the end of march.
The winrates for TvP in Korean tournaments was 51.5% for the Terran and 48.5% for the Protoss. At the time there were 14 Terrans/9 Protoss/9 Zerg in Code S.
After KA was removed.
The winrate for TvP in Korean tournaments favored Terran up to 61.2% to 38.8% for Protoss. It is now currently 57.7% in favor of Terran to 42.3% for Protoss Currently, there are 19 Terrans/ 5 Protoss/ 7 Zerg in Code S. Immortals have been increased to 6 range. Emp will be changed to 1.5
Tell me how else can I objectively look at it? This is just pure statistics. No bias. I am just telling you the numbers. Edit - This is a serious question. I am not asking flippantly. How else can I look at it objectively?
Edit #2: I'll also look at it objectively from the Zerg side. Before KA removal The winrates for ZvP in Korean tournaments was 55.8% for the Protoss and 44.2% for the Zerg. After KA removal: Currently the winrate for ZvP in Korean tournaments is 59.2% for the Zerg and 40.8% for the Protoss. Zerg has recieved a Fungal buff in damage, nerf in duration, buff in ability to stop stalkers from blinking.
There's nothing objective about using limited data.
Despite the common Protoss rhetoric GSL is not the only tournament out there and believe it or not, Protoss actually fare very well outside of the GSL.
Of course when Huk wins MLG every Protoss on SotG immediately claims it has nothing to do with the race and everything to do with the player. Yet when Genius, San, MC and Anypro bomb out of Code S through awful, terrible play it's somehow not the singer but the song.
P.S. Heck, Protoss even does well in Code A. They just get (rightfully) eliminated from Code S and all of a sudden Tosses think they have a right to complain about the removal of blindingly-obviously broken spells.
That data is drawn from ALL tournaments listed from TLPD for Korea. Not just GSL. Not just MLG. But all tournaments. What else can I use?
Using win stats to dictate balance makes as much sense as using population to determine prosperity. Balance is much more nuanced.
I really hope tosses aren't so biased that they don't recognize that the Korean Terrans are leagues above the Korean Tosses. San Zenith was garbage. SC is by far the stronger player.
Even when Trickster was eliminated from Code S some of his biggest fans had to admit that he didn't belong there.
Wtf? Lol this argument just pisses me off. There is absolutely NO WAY that you can completely disregard hard FACT by simply stating "terran players are better". That is your opinion.
You suggest that Terran is winning just because Terran players are better than Protoss players. That's like saying if you and I were in a race and you were driving this:
And i was driving this:
Then after you won, you said: "I'm the better driver."
On November 05 2011 15:05 oxxo wrote: KA was ridiculously broken. Take a step back and look at it objectively.
Ok. Objectively. No bias. Just pure statistics. The purest objective measure we got is statistics.
KA was removed at the end of march.
The winrates for TvP in Korean tournaments was 51.5% for the Terran and 48.5% for the Protoss. At the time there were 14 Terrans/9 Protoss/9 Zerg in Code S.
After KA was removed.
The winrate for TvP in Korean tournaments favored Terran up to 61.2% to 38.8% for Protoss. It is now currently 57.7% in favor of Terran to 42.3% for Protoss Currently, there are 19 Terrans/ 5 Protoss/ 7 Zerg in Code S. Immortals have been increased to 6 range. Emp will be changed to 1.5
Tell me how else can I objectively look at it? This is just pure statistics. No bias. I am just telling you the numbers. Edit - This is a serious question. I am not asking flippantly. How else can I look at it objectively?
Edit #2: I'll also look at it objectively from the Zerg side. Before KA removal The winrates for ZvP in Korean tournaments was 55.8% for the Protoss and 44.2% for the Zerg. After KA removal: Currently the winrate for ZvP in Korean tournaments is 59.2% for the Zerg and 40.8% for the Protoss. Zerg has recieved a Fungal buff in damage, nerf in duration, buff in ability to stop stalkers from blinking.
I didn't realize Protoss had such a hard on for KA. But you guys are blinded by your feelings and current frustration. Some things are clearly imbalanced and obvious. Mass reapers vs Zerg - insta-nurfed. 1 supply roaches was obviously broken and insta-nurfed. Once Blue flame became popular it was obvious there was a problem and insta-nurf.
KA was the same thing. It was so obviously broken. You could not advance after a decisive battle cause you'd get stormed to death. So you'd have to stand there, wait 40 seconds for your ghost to build, then god knows how long to get a couple across the map. Its absurd.
You couldn't advance after decisive battle? Not like it doesnt happen in TvZ. TvP didnt end after one battle? Obviously that's bad from viewer stand point, right? Waiting 40 sec for ghost was hard? Now if u want to play HT u need to wait 40s before being able to do anything, u need to leave hundredths of gas idle in bases which makes main unit composition weak as fuck.
With KA removal protoss lost the only defender advantage toss ever had, thats why after 1.3 we never see TvPs go longer then 3-4 base play, cause one battle = one game.
Was KA OP? I'm not sure. Storm isnt instant spell and it introduces a lot of micro into the game. And after KA removal there's no P builds which core is Storm play (ye, archons are good after their buff but it has nothing to do with KA). I feel like changing warp-in time of HT from 5s to 10s might be enough.
On November 05 2011 15:05 oxxo wrote: KA was ridiculously broken. Take a step back and look at it objectively.
Ok. Objectively. No bias. Just pure statistics. The purest objective measure we got is statistics.
KA was removed at the end of march.
The winrates for TvP in Korean tournaments was 51.5% for the Terran and 48.5% for the Protoss. At the time there were 14 Terrans/9 Protoss/9 Zerg in Code S.
After KA was removed.
The winrate for TvP in Korean tournaments favored Terran up to 61.2% to 38.8% for Protoss. It is now currently 57.7% in favor of Terran to 42.3% for Protoss Currently, there are 19 Terrans/ 5 Protoss/ 7 Zerg in Code S. Immortals have been increased to 6 range. Emp will be changed to 1.5
Tell me how else can I objectively look at it? This is just pure statistics. No bias. I am just telling you the numbers. Edit - This is a serious question. I am not asking flippantly. How else can I look at it objectively?
Edit #2: I'll also look at it objectively from the Zerg side. Before KA removal The winrates for ZvP in Korean tournaments was 55.8% for the Protoss and 44.2% for the Zerg. After KA removal: Currently the winrate for ZvP in Korean tournaments is 59.2% for the Zerg and 40.8% for the Protoss. Zerg has recieved a Fungal buff in damage, nerf in duration, buff in ability to stop stalkers from blinking.
I didn't realize Protoss had such a hard on for KA. But you guys are blinded by your feelings and current frustration. Some things are clearly imbalanced and obvious. Mass reapers vs Zerg - insta-nurfed. 1 supply roaches was obviously broken and insta-nurfed. Once Blue flame became popular it was obvious there was a problem and insta-nurf.
KA was the same thing. It was so obviously broken. You could not advance after a decisive battle cause you'd get stormed to death. So you'd have to stand there, wait 40 seconds for your ghost to build, then god knows how long to get a couple across the map. Its absurd.
You couldn't advance after decisive battle? Not like it doesnt happen in TvZ. TvP didnt end after one battle? Obviously that's bad from viewer stand point, right? Waiting 40 sec for ghost was hard? Now if u want to play HT u need to wait 40s before being able to do anything, u need to leave hundredths of gas idle in bases which makes main unit composition weak as fuck.
With KA removal protoss lost the only defender advantage toss ever had, thats why after 1.3 we never see TvPs go longer then 3-4 base play, cause one battle = one game.
Was KA OP? I'm not sure. Storm isnt instant spell and it introduces a lot of micro into the game. And after KA removal there's no P builds which core is Storm play (ye, archons are good after their buff but it has nothing to do with KA). I feel like changing warp-in time of HT from 5s to 10s might be enough.
Hmm, actually, I'm quite sure that archons were buffed to counter-balance a bit the KA nerf. It has not been enough though, of course.
On November 05 2011 17:03 GhostFall wrote: You want me to remain objective by assuming people who play Terrans are somehow inherently better than people who play Protoss?
Using win stats to dictate balance makes as much sense as using population to determine prosperity. Balance is much more nuanced.
I really hope tosses aren't so biased that they don't recognize that the Korean Terrans are leagues above the Korean Tosses. San Zenith was garbage. SC is by far the stronger player.
Even when Trickster was eliminated from Code S some of his biggest fans had to admit that he didn't belong there.
It's incredible what arguments Terrans will come up with to justify that either of their matchups are balanced. Not only is what you said ridiculous, given that Korean Ps practice just as hard as Korean Ts, it is impossible to prove. Please stop throwing the science of statistics out the window every time it doesn't agree with you.
Now you're equating time spent with skill. Your comparisons are lacking.
And the "science of statistics" DOES agree with me. As Blizzard stated at Blizzcon, only in Code S is Protoss lacking. They're performing totally well in every other tournament on the planet.
On November 05 2011 17:03 GhostFall wrote: You want me to remain objective by assuming people who play Terrans are somehow inherently better than people who play Protoss?
Not assuming. Recognizing.
Not people. Code S players.
*Sigh* Good old "Terran players are obviously better. So much more solid and skilled!" I mean, who dies to some 1/1/1 anyway? Terran players sure don't. God Protoss are such noobs....
Well, I've been saying how broken EMP is since that NASL finals between oGsMC and (then TSL) Puma. After I saw MC outmacro, outmicro, outthink, out-everything Puma and lose to a few EMPs, my hopes were gone. EMP breaks PvT in a way I find absurd. It costs nothing but energy. Ghosts can cloak, shoot air, shoot ground, snipe and even call Nukes. I mean... Compare that to a 50/150 unit whose only useful ability is to Storm? And even so, it needs a 200/200 + forever research.
I'm saying Storm is HTs only useful ability in PvT because who would go HT tech to feedback medivacs? And whoever says "But that thing can turn into an Archon!"
Yeah... Archons have 350 shield and 10 life? EMP takes 100 shield for free from a group of units.3 EMPs = dead protoss army (incluing archons).
Something is very wrong with this game.
EDIT: Allow me to clarify what I think: Apart from EMP, PvT is probably the most balanced match up so far. Marines and Marauder are awesomely powerful, but we can deal with them if half our health does not suddenly disappear.
EDIT Number 2: I've said this before and I will say it again: The main issue with the Protoss race is the Warpgate Technology. Remove that, balance units, race fixed. Oh, and get rid of the sentry.
On November 05 2011 15:41 ReignFayth wrote: giving protoss KA again would be nice, PvT would prob be 50/50
Maybe 50-50 isn't balanced, you know? Let's say average game time is 14 minutes, with Terran winning 60% of games under that and Protoss winning 60% of games longer than that. How does that look to you? How about a rock paper scissors matchup like BW ZvZ? Let's blindly go for a certain build, and see if we get ahead or behind without anything happening in the game. Protoss was too weak before KA and too strong after it. Blizzard "fixed" one problem but forgot to fix the other. Like I said a few times, the bane of Protoss matchups balance is warpgate and Sentry, and the designers are stuck on solving balance without tackling the major issues.
On November 05 2011 17:03 GhostFall wrote: You want me to remain objective by assuming people who play Terrans are somehow inherently better than people who play Protoss?
Not assuming. Recognizing.
Not people. Code S players.
I.... don't even know how to respond to this.
So I'll just post my first response:
On November 05 2011 17:03 GhostFall wrote: You want me to remain objective by assuming people who play Terrans are somehow inherently better than people who play Protoss?
Heck, I have my college stats course book nearby. There are 19 Code S players that are Terran. IF all matchups ZvT, ZvP, PvT are 100% perfectly balanced 50/50 (they're not), do you want me to calculate just how unlikely it is given a perfectly random distribution of people who pick up Starcraft, than it turns out 19 Terran players are in Code S by virtue of just being better. I guarantee this shit will go over yours and most other people's heads. But I'll do it, if you want to know statistically how ludicrous your argument is.
I don't even know how this adds to the discussion????? Fine, let's assume Terran players are just better. THAT STILL doesn't show me any data showing KA was so overpowered it had to be removed because it was removed so quickly. I can give you statistical examples of Terrans beating Protoss. I can cite numerous different strategies that Protoss have tried, only to lose to EMP. I can do that because there is months and months of data on EMP. You have absolutely no statistical evidence that KA was overpowered. You might be able to cite a couple different strategies tried against KA, all of them bio, but no where near the number I can cite for EMP. The only thing you can say is KA was OP because you say so. Why is this the case? Because KA was only in the metagame for a single month before it was removed.
Maybe you think KA is overpowered. Maybe you're absolutely right. But right now, there is no where enough evidence to show that KA was overpowered. I'm not arguing KA was balanced. I'm not arguing KA was perfectly fine. I'm telling you, objectively you cannot say KA was overpowered. Which is why I ask the question: Why was KA removed so quickly, when EMP was changed after months and months of data collection?
On November 05 2011 17:03 GhostFall wrote: You want me to remain objective by assuming people who play Terrans are somehow inherently better than people who play Protoss?
Using win stats to dictate balance makes as much sense as using population to determine prosperity. Balance is much more nuanced.
I really hope tosses aren't so biased that they don't recognize that the Korean Terrans are leagues above the Korean Tosses. San Zenith was garbage. SC is by far the stronger player.
Even when Trickster was eliminated from Code S some of his biggest fans had to admit that he didn't belong there.
It's incredible what arguments Terrans will come up with to justify that either of their matchups are balanced. Not only is what you said ridiculous, given that Korean Ps practice just as hard as Korean Ts, it is impossible to prove. Please stop throwing the science of statistics out the window every time it doesn't agree with you.
Now you're equating time spent with skill. Your comparisons are lacking.
And the "science of statistics" DOES agree with me. As Blizzard stated at Blizzcon, only in Code S is Protoss lacking. They're performing totally well in every other tournament on the planet.
The stats of Code-S are the most heavily weighted because the best players in the world play in Code-S. You can't point to other tournaments and go "see? they're doing fine there, therefore there is no problem" because those arent the best players.
And the "science of statistics" DOES agree with me. As Blizzard stated at Blizzcon, only in Code S is Protoss lacking. They're performing totally well in every other tournament on the planet.
Oh really? The above graph clearly show that PvT was approaching 50/50 balance up until KA was removed, and since, P have been steadily falling behind.
What's next? 10,000 games isn't enough maybe? It's a waste of time to argue with people like you.
The sheer firepower at your fingertips when KA was in the game was ridiculous. Terran had no opportunity to push into the Protoss base if they won the big army battle because 4 or 5 storms could be be warped in to clean up. Not to mention its offensive potential.
Comparing it to infestors and ghosts casting fungal and emp respectively, both of these units have to wait the 50 seconds it takes to build them to be able to cast their spells. When KA was in the game, HT could cast storm after their 5 second warp-in time, and this could happen wherever the Protoss player wanted. Now it takes 50 seconds for all races to be able to cast their primary spell, and HT still has an advantage of not spawning at the gateway they are warped from.
The win rate argument is silly. Firstly, the PvT win rate is being arbitrarily linked to KA inclusion/removal. Last time I checked, HT aren't used to stop a 1/1/1? I'd like to see evidence of it being responsible for the change in win rate, other than 'well it was 50-50 then and it isn't anymore'.
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: People are still herp-derping about this?
The sheer firepower at your fingertips when KA was in the game was ridiculous. Terran had no opportunity to push into the Protoss base if they won the big army battle because 4 or 5 storms could be be warped in to clean up. Not to mention its offensive potential.
Comparing it to infestors and ghosts casting fungal and emp respectively, both of these units have to wait the 50 seconds it takes to build them to be able to cast their spells. When KA was in the game, HT could cast storm after their 5 second warp-in time, and this could happen wherever the Protoss player wanted. Now it takes 50 seconds for all races to be able to cast their primary spell, and HT still has an advantage of not spawning at the gateway they are warped from.
The win rate argument is silly. Firstly, the PvT win rate is being arbitrarily linked to KA inclusion/removal. Last time I checked, HT aren't used to stop a 1/1/1? I'd like to see evidence of it being responsible for the change in win rate, other than 'well it was 50-50 then and it isn't anymore'.
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
And the "science of statistics" DOES agree with me. As Blizzard stated at Blizzcon, only in Code S is Protoss lacking. They're performing totally well in every other tournament on the planet.
Oh really? The above graph clearly show that PvT was approaching 50/50 balance up until KA was removed, and since, P have been steadily falling behind.
What's next? 10,000 games isn't enough maybe? It's a waste of time to argue with people like you.
Well the statistics certainly showed that the removal of KA contributed to the decline of Protoss. However, anybody following the trend and metagame will also see that the increasing gap in those above months was also brought about by the increasing use of BFH ( which has now been nerfed ) and infestors ( which also has now been nerfed ).
Personally I would like to see KA back in a less potent form. PvT was my favourite match-up to watch then, and now it's just something to cringe at whenever watching.
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: People are still herp-derping about this?
The sheer firepower at your fingertips when KA was in the game was ridiculous. Terran had no opportunity to push into the Protoss base if they won the big army battle because 4 or 5 storms could be be warped in to clean up. Not to mention its offensive potential.
Comparing it to infestors and ghosts casting fungal and emp respectively, both of these units have to wait the 50 seconds it takes to build them to be able to cast their spells. When KA was in the game, HT could cast storm after their 5 second warp-in time, and this could happen wherever the Protoss player wanted. Now it takes 50 seconds for all races to be able to cast their primary spell, and HT still has an advantage of not spawning at the gateway they are warped from.
The win rate argument is silly. Firstly, the PvT win rate is being arbitrarily linked to KA inclusion/removal. Last time I checked, HT aren't used to stop a 1/1/1? I'd like to see evidence of it being responsible for the change in win rate, other than 'well it was 50-50 then and it isn't anymore'.
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
I lol'd
Why? I didn't mean they win straight up fights against ghosts, obviously they don't. I just mean that having the ability to spawn anywhere on the map is better than coming out of gateways
Well of course its retarded to attribute PvT winrate solely KA inclusion and removal. I've already mentioned this a couple times now. But the winrate argument is this:
You nerf something because that something is overpowered. KA was nerfed and removed. Was KA overpowered? If it was overpowered then why was the winrates of that matchup near 50/50 when it was removed? If it was overpowered, shouldnt winrates have shifted towards the Protoss. This never happened. And we'll never know if it will happen because they removed it so quickly.
On November 05 2011 17:03 GhostFall wrote: You want me to remain objective by assuming people who play Terrans are somehow inherently better than people who play Protoss?
On November 05 2011 17:03 GhostFall wrote: You want me to remain objective by assuming people who play Terrans are somehow inherently better than people who play Protoss?
Heck, I have my college stats course book nearby. There are 19 Code S players that are Terran. IF all matchups ZvT, ZvP, PvT are 100% perfectly balanced 50/50 (they're not), do you want me to calculate just how unlikely it is given a perfectly random distribution of people who pick up Starcraft, than it turns out 19 Terran players are in Code S by virtue of just being better. I guarantee this shit will go over yours and most other people's heads. But I'll do it, if you want to know statistically how ludicrous your argument is.
I don't even know how this adds to the discussion????? Fine, let's assume Terran players are just better. THAT STILL doesn't show me any data showing KA was so overpowered it had to be removed because it was removed so quickly.
You ignore so much it blows my mind.
- Korea has the ONLY server with more Terrans in M and GM than the other races. - Terran had the MOST BW pros switch over, and the highest profile BW pros. Toss had nearly 0, and some of the few that did switched to Terran (MKP, etc.). - Terran is more celebrated in Korea than the other races. - In Code S Zergs have been dominating Protoss just as much, if not more so, than Terrans have. - In Code A a tournament with arguably a higher skill level than Code S, the races are very evenly distributed.
So because Nestea swept Inka 4:0 in the GSL finals does that mean that Protoss deserves a buff? Protoss should be nerfed for even letting such an awful player as Inka get that far!!!
How does this add to the discussion? The OP said that KA removal was a mistake because of win rates. My argument is that Protoss doesn't deserve to have better win rates until they show skill equal to the Terrans/Zergs, and reinstating KA is DEFINITELY a step in the wrong direction. KA is a fall back for poor play. How else do you think San Zenith got so far? Because of his gosu skillz??
There are few Protosses that have shown themselves to be of Code S caliber. MC is one, but even he has been called out many times on his risky play.
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units.
And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'.
On November 05 2011 17:03 GhostFall wrote: You want me to remain objective by assuming people who play Terrans are somehow inherently better than people who play Protoss?
Not assuming. Recognizing.
Not people. Code S players.
On November 05 2011 17:09 zanmat0 wrote:
On November 05 2011 17:01 _Search_ wrote:
Using win stats to dictate balance makes as much sense as using population to determine prosperity. Balance is much more nuanced.
I really hope tosses aren't so biased that they don't recognize that the Korean Terrans are leagues above the Korean Tosses. San Zenith was garbage. SC is by far the stronger player.
Even when Trickster was eliminated from Code S some of his biggest fans had to admit that he didn't belong there.
It's incredible what arguments Terrans will come up with to justify that either of their matchups are balanced. Not only is what you said ridiculous, given that Korean Ps practice just as hard as Korean Ts, it is impossible to prove. Please stop throwing the science of statistics out the window every time it doesn't agree with you.
Now you're equating time spent with skill. Your comparisons are lacking.
And the "science of statistics" DOES agree with me. As Blizzard stated at Blizzcon, only in Code S is Protoss lacking. They're performing totally well in every other tournament on the planet.
The stats of Code-S are the most heavily weighted because the best players in the world play in Code-S. You can't point to other tournaments and go "see? they're doing fine there, therefore there is no problem" because those arent the best players.
The same players play in every other tournament. Who do you think Huk and MC smashed to get 1st and 2nd at MLG??? LzGamer????
They beat Bomber, MarineKing, Rain, Puma, Boxer, theSTC, etc.
On November 05 2011 18:07 GhostFall wrote: Well of course its retarded to attribute PvT winrate solely KA inclusion and removal. I've already mentioned this a couple times now. But the winrate argument is this:
You nerf something because that something is overpowered. KA was nerfed and removed. Was KA overpowered? If it was overpowered then why was the winrates of that matchup near 50/50 when it was removed? If it was overpowered, shouldnt winrates have shifted towards the Protoss. This never happened. And we'll never know if it will happen because they removed it so quickly.
No, KA wouldn't have skewed win rates in Protoss favour. Terran pretty obviously has an inherent advantage over Protoss, at least at the highest level. KA only hid that because it was also overpowered.
I would say:
You nerf something because that something is overpowered KA was nerfed and removed Yes KA was overpowered Why were the win rates near 50/50 when it was removed? Because Terran was OP in other areas, KA provided a balance
This doesn't justify the reinclusion of KA, it justify's buffs to underpowered areas of Protoss, or nerfs to overpowered areas of Terran
On November 05 2011 18:07 GhostFall wrote: Well of course its retarded to attribute PvT winrate solely KA inclusion and removal. I've already mentioned this a couple times now. But the winrate argument is this:
You nerf something because that something is overpowered. KA was nerfed and removed. Was KA overpowered? If it was overpowered then why was the winrates of that matchup near 50/50 when it was removed? If it was overpowered, shouldnt winrates have shifted towards the Protoss. This never happened. And we'll never know if it will happen because they removed it so quickly.
Depends what data you look at. Here is the graph for the Korean server:
KA was nerfed b/c of the win rates in Feb. 2011. You'll recall there was huge metagame shift from colossus play to HT play and mass gate way play where builds like double forge were gaining popularity.
edit: overall balance has been up and down as blizzard nerfed different races and the metagame shifted extremely fast, emp is getting nerfed, i don't don't understand all the qqing
On November 05 2011 18:07 GhostFall wrote: Well of course its retarded to attribute PvT winrate solely KA inclusion and removal. I've already mentioned this a couple times now. But the winrate argument is this:
You nerf something because that something is overpowered. KA was nerfed and removed. Was KA overpowered? If it was overpowered then why was the winrates of that matchup near 50/50 when it was removed? If it was overpowered, shouldnt winrates have shifted towards the Protoss. This never happened. And we'll never know if it will happen because they removed it so quickly.
No, KA wouldn't have skewed win rates in Protoss favour. Terran pretty obviously has an inherent advantage over Protoss, at least at the highest level. KA only hid that because it was also overpowered.
I would say:
You nerf something because that something is overpowered KA was nerfed and removed Yes KA was overpowered Why were the win rates near 50/50 when it was removed? Because Terran was OP in other areas, KA provided a balance
This doesn't justify the reinclusion of KA, it justify's buffs to underpowered areas of Protoss, or nerfs to overpowered areas of Terran
So Terran is OP against Protoss. But it was balanced because KA was also OP. Man you would've hated Starcraft 1.
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units.
And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'.
If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm.
On November 04 2011 23:57 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Well my game knowledge/sense is not that strong in BW but.
At first I felt KA removal was good, considering how you can warp in units in SC2 unlike in SC1; By the time the gateway cooldown is finished, HT would have gained a good bit of energy, around or more than the 62 that HT could start with in BW if you upgraded them.
However now I just realized that Science Vessels needed 100 energy to EMP (the radius was really big tho right? as in, much better than 1 ghost EMP now, and i think it took all shield/energy away) and even if they're upgraded, they start with 62 energy.
So basically in SC2 Ghosts can start with enough energy to EMP right off the bat. So yeah either the EMP radius cooldown should help, assuming that the Science Vessel fulfilled a similar role (idk much about BW sorry), or maybe something in between removing KA and having it would have been better (nerf instead of remove)
It's bigger and removes 9999+ shield and mana ( buildings ) and HTs start with 50---> 62.5 initial mana // 200 ---> 250 maximum. The 12.5 would still require players to wait a bit more.
On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units.
And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'.
If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm.
...which is a perfect comparison because ghosts also take 5 seconds to build.
On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units.
And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'.
If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm.
You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost.
This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT.
By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg
On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units.
And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'.
If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm.
...which is a perfect comparison because ghosts also take 5 seconds to build.
/facepalm
Obviously not, but they don't need to wait for energy to cast their EMP.
On November 05 2011 18:14 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:07 GhostFall wrote: Well of course its retarded to attribute PvT winrate solely KA inclusion and removal. I've already mentioned this a couple times now. But the winrate argument is this:
You nerf something because that something is overpowered. KA was nerfed and removed. Was KA overpowered? If it was overpowered then why was the winrates of that matchup near 50/50 when it was removed? If it was overpowered, shouldnt winrates have shifted towards the Protoss. This never happened. And we'll never know if it will happen because they removed it so quickly.
No, KA wouldn't have skewed win rates in Protoss favour. Terran pretty obviously has an inherent advantage over Protoss, at least at the highest level. KA only hid that because it was also overpowered.
I would say:
You nerf something because that something is overpowered KA was nerfed and removed Yes KA was overpowered Why were the win rates near 50/50 when it was removed? Because Terran was OP in other areas, KA provided a balance
This doesn't justify the reinclusion of KA, it justify's buffs to underpowered areas of Protoss, or nerfs to overpowered areas of Terran
So Terran is OP against Protoss. But it was balanced because KA was also OP. Man you would've hated Starcraft 1.
Yeah thats a bad way to balance a game. Sorry if I piss off BW players, but that kind of balance creates situations where one race or another is going to be stuffed because of the other races OP thing.
On November 05 2011 18:07 GhostFall wrote: Well of course its retarded to attribute PvT winrate solely KA inclusion and removal. I've already mentioned this a couple times now. But the winrate argument is this:
You nerf something because that something is overpowered. KA was nerfed and removed. Was KA overpowered? If it was overpowered then why was the winrates of that matchup near 50/50 when it was removed? If it was overpowered, shouldnt winrates have shifted towards the Protoss. This never happened. And we'll never know if it will happen because they removed it so quickly.
Depends what data you look at. Here is the graph for the Korean server:
KA was nerfed b/c of the win rates in Feb. 2011. You'll recall there was huge metagame shift from colossus play to HT play and mass gate way play where builds like double forge were gaining popularity.
edit: overall balance has been up and down as blizzard nerfed different races and the metagame shifted extremely fast, emp is getting nerfed, i don't don't understand all the qqing
woo finally, an actual objective counter argument. Only took 3 pages. Kudos to you. I agree that Protoss players have been qqing a lot. My point is not that KA should go back into the game. My point is, why was 1/1/1 and EMP nerfed after months of play, with winrates going all the way up to 61% for the Terran. Why was KA removed after just one metagame shift? How many different strategies did Protoss use to beat EMP before Blizzard decided to finally nerf EMP? Why didn't they wait until 5 Terrans were left in the GSL before removing KA? I am trying to clarify, the reason why you see SOOOOO many KA threads every couple of weeks, is because of this disparity.
On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units.
And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'.
If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm.
You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost.
This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT.
By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg
If there is an advantage, it's so miniscule that it doesnt even matter. The HT can die in those 50 seconds, EMP'd, whatever. You can liken the HT waiting for storm to be it's build time.
On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units.
And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'.
If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm.
...which is a perfect comparison because ghosts also take 5 seconds to build.
/facepalm
Obviously not, but they don't need to wait for energy to cast their EMP.
/facepalm...
No, just the time it takes to get a Templar with storm is still shorter than it takes the time for an upped Ghost to train and travel to the battle.
On November 05 2011 18:23 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instanatly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units.
And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'.
If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm.
You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost.
This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT.
By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg
If there is an advantage, it's so miniscule that it doesnt even matter. The HT can die in those 50 seconds, EMP'd, whatever. You can liken the HT waiting for storm to be it's build time.
On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units.
And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'.
If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm.
...which is a perfect comparison because ghosts also take 5 seconds to build.
/facepalm
Obviously not, but they don't need to wait for energy to cast their EMP.
/facepalm...
Yes they do...
Ghosts wait 50 seconds inside a barracks
HT wait 5 seconds while warping, then 45 seconds somewhere on the map
On November 05 2011 18:07 GhostFall wrote: Well of course its retarded to attribute PvT winrate solely KA inclusion and removal. I've already mentioned this a couple times now. But the winrate argument is this:
You nerf something because that something is overpowered. KA was nerfed and removed. Was KA overpowered? If it was overpowered then why was the winrates of that matchup near 50/50 when it was removed? If it was overpowered, shouldnt winrates have shifted towards the Protoss. This never happened. And we'll never know if it will happen because they removed it so quickly.
Depends what data you look at. Here is the graph for the Korean server:
KA was nerfed b/c of the win rates in Feb. 2011. You'll recall there was huge metagame shift from colossus play to HT play and mass gate way play where builds like double forge were gaining popularity.
edit: overall balance has been up and down as blizzard nerfed different races and the metagame shifted extremely fast, emp is getting nerfed, i don't don't understand all the qqing
woo finally, an actual objective counter argument. Only took 3 pages. Kudos to you. I agree that Protoss players have been qqing a lot. My point is not that KA should go back into the game. My point is, why was 1/1/1 and EMP nerfed after months of play, with winrates going all the way up to 61% for the Terran. Why was KA removed after just one metagame shift? How many different strategies did Protoss use to beat EMP before Blizzard decided to finally nerf EMP? Why didn't they wait until 5 Terrans were left in the GSL before removing KA?
Personally I think hey should revert the KA nerf. Back then nobody used ghosts, and if the did it was very few. Now that Terran's have learned to use ghosts properly te KA nerf is not necessary.
On November 05 2011 18:23 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units.
And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'.
If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm.
You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost.
This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT.
By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg
If there is an advantage, it's so miniscule that it doesnt even matter. The HT can die in those 50 seconds, EMP'd, whatever. You can liken the HT waiting for storm to be it's build time.
No you can't. The HT can still be used while on the map, albeit only for feedback or an archon morph. A ghost building in a barracks can do literally nothing.
On November 05 2011 18:07 GhostFall wrote: Well of course its retarded to attribute PvT winrate solely KA inclusion and removal. I've already mentioned this a couple times now. But the winrate argument is this:
You nerf something because that something is overpowered. KA was nerfed and removed. Was KA overpowered? If it was overpowered then why was the winrates of that matchup near 50/50 when it was removed? If it was overpowered, shouldnt winrates have shifted towards the Protoss. This never happened. And we'll never know if it will happen because they removed it so quickly.
Depends what data you look at. Here is the graph for the Korean server:
KA was nerfed b/c of the win rates in Feb. 2011. You'll recall there was huge metagame shift from colossus play to HT play and mass gate way play where builds like double forge were gaining popularity.
edit: overall balance has been up and down as blizzard nerfed different races and the metagame shifted extremely fast, emp is getting nerfed, i don't don't understand all the qqing
woo finally, an actual objective counter argument. Only took 3 pages. Kudos to you. I agree that Protoss players have been qqing a lot. My point is not that KA should go back into the game. My point is, why was 1/1/1 and EMP nerfed after months of play, with winrates going all the way up to 61% for the Terran. Why was KA removed after just one metagame shift? How many different strategies did Protoss use to beat EMP before Blizzard decided to finally nerf EMP? Why didn't they wait until 5 Terrans were left in the GSL before removing KA?
Don't ask me. I don't understand why they nerfed thors just b/c of one tournament or the huge siege tank nerf pre 1.2. Why are they removing the reaper's D-8 charges and giving the reaper regen in HotS? Fuck if I know.
Personally I wish Blizzard would be more conservative in their balance changes and give players more time to figure things out.
On November 05 2011 18:07 GhostFall wrote: Well of course its retarded to attribute PvT winrate solely KA inclusion and removal. I've already mentioned this a couple times now. But the winrate argument is this:
You nerf something because that something is overpowered. KA was nerfed and removed. Was KA overpowered? If it was overpowered then why was the winrates of that matchup near 50/50 when it was removed? If it was overpowered, shouldnt winrates have shifted towards the Protoss. This never happened. And we'll never know if it will happen because they removed it so quickly.
Depends what data you look at. Here is the graph for the Korean server:
KA was nerfed b/c of the win rates in Feb. 2011. You'll recall there was huge metagame shift from colossus play to HT play and mass gate way play where builds like double forge were gaining popularity.
edit: overall balance has been up and down as blizzard nerfed different races and the metagame shifted extremely fast, emp is getting nerfed, i don't don't understand all the qqing
woo finally, an actual objective counter argument. Only took 3 pages. Kudos to you. I agree that Protoss players have been qqing a lot. My point is not that KA should go back into the game. My point is, why was 1/1/1 and EMP nerfed after months of play, with winrates going all the way up to 61% for the Terran. Why was KA removed after just one metagame shift? How many different strategies did Protoss use to beat EMP before Blizzard decided to finally nerf EMP? Why didn't they wait until 5 Terrans were left in the GSL before removing KA?
Don't ask me. I don't understand why they nerfed thors just b/c of one tournament or the huge siege tank nerf pre 1.2. Why are they removing the reaper's D-8 charges and giving the reaper regen in HotS? Fuck if I know.
Personally I wish Blizzard would be more conservative in their balance changes and give players more time to figure things out.
On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units.
And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'.
If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm.
...which is a perfect comparison because ghosts also take 5 seconds to build.
/facepalm
Not like u need EMP to get back into the game after the big engagement. U have bunkers, PFs and MMM for that.
On November 05 2011 18:07 GhostFall wrote: Well of course its retarded to attribute PvT winrate solely KA inclusion and removal. I've already mentioned this a couple times now. But the winrate argument is this:
You nerf something because that something is overpowered. KA was nerfed and removed. Was KA overpowered? If it was overpowered then why was the winrates of that matchup near 50/50 when it was removed? If it was overpowered, shouldnt winrates have shifted towards the Protoss. This never happened. And we'll never know if it will happen because they removed it so quickly.
Depends what data you look at. Here is the graph for the Korean server:
KA was nerfed b/c of the win rates in Feb. 2011. You'll recall there was huge metagame shift from colossus play to HT play and mass gate way play where builds like double forge were gaining popularity.
edit: overall balance has been up and down as blizzard nerfed different races and the metagame shifted extremely fast, emp is getting nerfed, i don't don't understand all the qqing
woo finally, an actual objective counter argument. Only took 3 pages. Kudos to you. I agree that Protoss players have been qqing a lot. My point is not that KA should go back into the game. My point is, why was 1/1/1 and EMP nerfed after months of play, with winrates going all the way up to 61% for the Terran. Why was KA removed after just one metagame shift? How many different strategies did Protoss use to beat EMP before Blizzard decided to finally nerf EMP? Why didn't they wait until 5 Terrans were left in the GSL before removing KA?
Don't ask me. I don't understand why they nerfed thors just b/c of one tournament or the huge siege tank nerf pre 1.2. Why are they removing the reaper's D-8 charges and giving the reaper regen in HotS? Fuck if I know.
Personally I wish Blizzard would be more conservative in their balance changes and give players more time to figure things out.
Oh god I raged so hard when they nerfed the Thor because of one tournament. Even more so because they said it wasn't imbalanced, but just that "it didn't look right."
On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units.
And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'.
If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm.
...which is a perfect comparison because ghosts also take 5 seconds to build.
/facepalm
Not like u need EMP to get back into the game after the big engagement. U have bunkers, PFs and MMM for that.
Not what we are talking about. We aren't talking about recovery after losing your army, just the way the spellcasters function and when they can cast their spells etc.
On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units.
And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'.
If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm.
You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost.
This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT.
By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg
You're just going to ignore the gateway cooldown time? Do you really think toss can literally warp in units every 5 seconds?
On November 05 2011 18:23 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units.
And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'.
If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm.
You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost.
This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT.
By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg
You're just going to ignore the gateway cooldown time? Do you really think toss can literally warp in units every 5 seconds?
Of course not. I don't where you got this assumption. Both Terran and Protoss can create a ghost/HT every 50 seconds.
Difference is, for every production cycle, Protoss have a HT after 5 seconds, Terran have a ghost after 50
by the way, infestor has 50 sec building time as well. 50 sec infestor building time, 50 sec ghost building time, 5 sec high templar building time + 45 sec waiting time i think the amulet was way too strong, because if protoss says "i need an high templar now" they get one in 5 seconds, whereas terran/zerg has to plan 50 seconds ahead (and for zerg it is easy to lose a couple hatcheries in 50 seconds, so you have to be aware of where you build them or they are just as dead as HT waiting on the map). Also ghosts/infestor still need an upgrade that does not come cheap to have the same starting energy an HT has if you build it and wait 45 seconds.
oh, and if you think about gateway cooldown time to warp in new stuff, don't forget about the need for larvae to produce anything and that terran has to wait as well until the stuff they are building atm is finished (cancel on unit production is lost unit production, compare it to idle warpgates)
Also, HT standing around for 45 seconds isn't really that vulnerable, don't forget they can morph into a really powerful archon if necessary (infestors burrow, ghosts cloak, but you have to research both as well) and as has been mentioned before, warpin is still strong for HT, you can warp in to kill banshees w/o cloak and medivacs with a lot energy, also get detection and a pylon and if there ever is an infestor hit squad heading your base just warp in a couple HT and problem solved (see showmatch series Grubby vs Destiny the game on Xel'Naga caverns)
So stats-wise the high templar is already slightly on the OP side of balance. I don't think you should try to fix a matchup by making a single unit too powerful (blizzard seems to think that way too, remember infestor nerf. Now fungal growth is less good and neural parasite often times worthless)
what was rather interesting to me: if zealots get kited to death, terran wins. But have you ever seen a complete surround with zealots + walls + FF on the terran army, with few colossus and archons ( < 3) to provide some AoE? Terran gets annihilated so badly every single time. In PvZ protoss have figured out how to forcefield vs certain unit compositions, in PvT they often times just seem to A-move and rage if their colossi don't smash everything while the terran endlessly kites zealots and colossi with MMM + vikings.
On November 05 2011 18:23 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units.
And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'.
If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm.
You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost.
This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT.
By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg
You're just going to ignore the gateway cooldown time? Do you really think toss can literally warp in units every 5 seconds?
Of course not. I don't where you got this assumption. Both Terran and Protoss can create a ghost/HT every 50 seconds.
Difference is, for every production cycle, Protoss have a HT after 5 seconds, Terran have a ghost after 50
Even then, it's not like in the late-game Toss doesn't have plenty of idle gates. They pretty much CAN "literally warp in units every 5 seconds" as the situation and their economy allows.
On November 05 2011 18:46 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:42 tomatriedes wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:23 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units.
And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'.
If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm.
You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost.
This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT.
By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg
You're just going to ignore the gateway cooldown time? Do you really think toss can literally warp in units every 5 seconds?
Of course not. I don't where you got this assumption. Both Terran and Protoss can create a ghost/HT every 50 seconds.
Difference is, for every production cycle, Protoss have a HT after 5 seconds, Terran have a ghost after 50
Even then, it's not like in the late-game Toss doesn't have plenty of idle gates. They pretty much CAN "literally warp in units every 5 seconds" as the situation and their economy allows.
This is also true. I think you and I have been on the same wavelength for the last few pages
On November 05 2011 18:23 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units.
And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'.
If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm.
You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost.
This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT.
By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg
You're just going to ignore the gateway cooldown time? Do you really think toss can literally warp in units every 5 seconds?
Of course not. I don't where you got this assumption. Both Terran and Protoss can create a ghost/HT every 50 seconds.
Difference is, for every production cycle, Protoss have a HT after 5 seconds, Terran have a ghost after 50
Because the cooldown is part of the protoss production cycle. And it's not true that there are always idle gateways. If you've just warped in units and you want to create a high temp you're going to have to wait for the cooldown to finish. It's disingenuous to act as though protoss is always 5 seonds away from having a high temp ready.
On November 05 2011 18:26 GhostFall wrote: Why was KA removed after just one metagame shift? How many different strategies did Protoss use to beat EMP before Blizzard decided to finally nerf EMP? Why didn't they wait until 5 Terrans were left in the GSL before removing KA?
Blizzard has been incredibly inconsistent and contradictory when it comes to balancing the game. Thors were nerfed immediately after Throzain won the TSL 3, yet it took them forever to figure out that EMP might be overpowered.
In the end, I think the fact is that EMP is overpowered, but so was KA. KA was the one thing that Protoss could rely on to make a non-Colossus build work in the end game vs EMP. And it led to some really interesting games. I wouldn't say Protoss had the major advantage, the game was pretty even at the point of KA removal. The win rate graphs show this, and when you watch old GSL games of Terran vs Protoss (pre KA removal), they feel even at the end game stage, with the seemingly better player winning.
On November 05 2011 18:46 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:42 tomatriedes wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:23 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units.
And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'.
If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm.
You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost.
This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT.
By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg
You're just going to ignore the gateway cooldown time? Do you really think toss can literally warp in units every 5 seconds?
Of course not. I don't where you got this assumption. Both Terran and Protoss can create a ghost/HT every 50 seconds.
Difference is, for every production cycle, Protoss have a HT after 5 seconds, Terran have a ghost after 50
Because the cooldown is part of the protoss production cycle. And it's not true that there are always idle gateways. If you've just warped in units and you want to create a high temp you're going to have to wait for the cooldown to finish. It's disingenuous to act as though protoss is always 5 seonds away from having a high temp ready.
Waiting for the gateway cooldown is exactly the same as a building a ghost, but needing to wait for the previous unit to finish building from the barracks first. In the same way their won't always be idle gateways, there won't always be idle barracks.
It isn't disingenuous, if Protoss has an idle gateway, they are 5 seconds from a HT. If Terran has an idle barracks, they are 50 seconds from a ghost.
I know I was assuming that Protoss had an idle gateway at the time they wanted to warp in a HT, but I was also assuming Terran had an idle barracks when they wanted to begin building a ghost.
I'm not ignoring the gateway cooldown time, I'm pointing out that the gateway cooldown time occurs after you get the unit, whereas with Terran the waiting period occurs before you get the unit.
On November 05 2011 18:46 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:42 tomatriedes wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:23 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units.
And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'.
If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm.
You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost.
This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT.
By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg
You're just going to ignore the gateway cooldown time? Do you really think toss can literally warp in units every 5 seconds?
Of course not. I don't where you got this assumption. Both Terran and Protoss can create a ghost/HT every 50 seconds.
Difference is, for every production cycle, Protoss have a HT after 5 seconds, Terran have a ghost after 50
Because the cooldown is part of the protoss production cycle. And it's not true that there are always idle gateways. If you've just warped in units and you want to create a high temp you're going to have to wait for the cooldown to finish. It's disingenuous to act as though protoss is always 5 seonds away from having a high temp ready.
OK, but it's arguable that the cooldown comes after the warp-in in the production cycle. Also, with KA, if you happen to have an idle warp gate, you can get a Templar after 5 seconds with Storm. However, even if I have an empty Barracks, I still have to wait for 40 seconds for the Ghost to pop out. Moreover, it's not that much of a stretch to imagine the Protoss would have an empty WG or two in preparation for a planned attack/drop.
now that we terrans are not retarded and actually make mass ghosts, i dont think having KA back in the game would be a problem... might actually balance the game out. It was removed because 1 storm can almost end the game for terran and this is still true, but the odds of protoss players getting off that criticalstorm have shot way down. I think putting KA back in the game should be considered by blizzard, maybe put it in PTR but PTR really... doesnt show the game at balanced since 99% of pros dont bother with it.
KA might have been overpowered but it is pretty drastic to remove the ability from the game. If instant storms 'nullifying' drops were the problem a +20 instead of +25 could have been the solution.
Believe me I love High Templar, infact they are my favourite unit. I love watching storms land perfectly on huge clumps of bio, especially when that whole ball just explodes from it. Protoss is also my played race so, heres my opinion.
While bringing back KA would certainly help Protoss, it would also overpower them hugely. Yes I am frustrated and annoyed with Terran lately because of how easily they roll over Protoss and how 1 easy to use EMP can shut down a vast amount of units with incredibly expensive tech. I am just biding my time and hoping Blizzard get the balance correct. If they reintroduced KA now, it would firstly make it far easier to defend expansions vs terran. Someone mentioned earlier that KA is likened to a planetary fortress, ie: you better know what your doing if your going to attack my base. However this "planetary fortress" is able to appear almost anywhere in the Protoss' base and land a giant amount of damage right on your army in seconds. Multiple times. KA is more like a... super storm that makes the protoss so hard to attack that you better bring your whole freaking army and be watching it perfectly, ignoring your macro, and also letting the Protoss know exactly where your army is so he can go happily wipe your whole base off the face of the map, or set up a sick ambush, while you try to keep fighting through seemingly endless waves of instant storms.
This is not to mention the offensive capabilities that KA has. Firstly it allows you to hold almost any position on the map where you have a pylon. The enemy darent go near it. It also means that warp prism harass would become stronger. It means the carry space of the Prism could be used on Zealots or DT's which are unloaded to go hacking away at whatever, while the templar are warped in to immidiately storm. Could you imagine a sentry drop, blocking the workers, then warping in HT's to storm them immidiately? I think you'd probably rage quit. You could also phase out whole areas of the enemies own base with the threat of these storms.
I long for a balanced game and to see more Protoss in tournaments again.. but bringing back KA is definitely not the way to go. It would completley wreck the balance in the opposite direction, I am sick of the amount of Terrans at the moment but I dont want to see them all gone. I'd rather not have 20 Protoss in the GSL thanks... (nightmares of PvP...)
Terran has to build a ghost for 50 seconds and then has walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells... Zerg has to build an infestor for 50 seconds and then has to walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells. But Protoss should be able to warp in a High templar in 5 seconds anywhere on the map and instantly use it's spells?
On November 05 2011 20:04 doko100 wrote: So what....
Terran has to build a ghost for 50 seconds and then has walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells... Zerg has to build an infestor for 50 seconds and then has to walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells. But Protoss should be able to warp in a High templar in 5 seconds anywhere on the map and instantly use it's spells?
protoss players...... /facepalm
First off, you need either a proxy pylon or a warp prism to do that, and secondly, there's a CD on warp gates, it's not like you can constantly warp in HTs, but I agree, KA was a bit to strong , nerfing it to 15-20 + would've been cool
On November 05 2011 20:04 doko100 wrote: So what....
Terran has to build a ghost for 50 seconds and then has walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells... Zerg has to build an infestor for 50 seconds and then has to walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells. But Protoss should be able to warp in a High templar in 5 seconds anywhere on the map and instantly use it's spells?
protoss players...... /facepalm
First off, you need either a proxy pylon or a warp prism to do that, and secondly, there's a CD on warp gates, it's not like you can constantly warp in HTs, but I agree, KA was a bit to strong , nerfing it to 15-20 + would've been cool
So what you need a barracks to build a ghost. No shit you need a proxy pylon.... if it's to hard for you to proxy pylons then that's fine but it doesn't change the fact that it was still ridiculously OP. And no, reducing it to 15-20 energy would ahve still been OP. because as it is right now warping in an HT and waiting for it's energy in the middle of the map is still faster than building a ghost and physically walking there.
It was ridiculously imbalanced, protoss players are just being retards as usual.
Personally I want a damage buff, I never really liked the whole Warpin insta-storm strats protoss were doing. It's very lazy to look at. Make storm powerful against everything especially mech.
On November 05 2011 20:14 KingAce wrote: Personally I want a damage buff, I never really liked the whole Warpin insta-storm strats protoss were doing. It's very lazy to look at. Make storm powerful against everything especially mech.
Mech? Protoss really doesn't need help vs. Mech, Mech is awful in TvP, that's the reason nobody ever uses it.
Maybe it could be re-introduced similar to BW, where it increases max energy to 250 and keeps the same starting %. So a HT would spawn with 62.5 energy. Would also mean that a max energy HT could cast 3 storms instead of 2.
On November 05 2011 20:04 doko100 wrote: So what....
Terran has to build a ghost for 50 seconds and then has walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells... Zerg has to build an infestor for 50 seconds and then has to walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells. But Protoss should be able to warp in a High templar in 5 seconds anywhere on the map and instantly use it's spells?
protoss players...... /facepalm
First off, you need either a proxy pylon or a warp prism to do that, and secondly, there's a CD on warp gates, it's not like you can constantly warp in HTs, but I agree, KA was a bit to strong , nerfing it to 15-20 + would've been cool
Anyone in diamond league and above is more than capable of making a proxy pylon. Sure there is cool down, but practically thats very rarely an impediment to protoss warping in units where-ever and whenever they need them. Especially in max army situations late game when the protoss ends up with 15+ warp gates ready to warp in after the battle.
edit: i want to add warp gates make balancing protoss gateway units extremely difficult, though i don't think wgs should be removed or nerfed
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Tanks are rarely used in TvP outside of some well known All-Ins, and some seldom used Mech-oriented strategies.
I'd argue that the Tank was balanced for TvT and TvZ. And it is from this that it has become very hard for most players to use them effectively in TvP.
So many Protoss units counter Tanks and they often become more detrimental to your own units than the oppositions. Beefy Chargelots taking Tank shots like they were nothing, causing huge splash damage to your own forces. Stalkers blinking on top of Terran's units and letting the Siege Splash wreck their Bio, or forcing Unsieges. Immortals. There's many reasons why we don't see Tanks often in TvP.
I didn't say tanks. I said mech. Hellions/Thors/Tanks. And there's absolutely no way for you to say Mech doesn't work against Protoss who went KA. There's also absolutely no way for me to say Mech does work against Protoss who went KA. It's all theorycraft because no one had a chance to do anything about it. No one had a chance to use mech against KA. No one is using mech now, because why use mech when bio is just clearly better because KA doesn't exist anymore? But we can say, that statistically that Protoss is not a balanced matchup against Terran. We can say that EMP should get nerfed to 1.5 radius. Why? Because we have 7 months of data. So why don't we have 7 months of data on KA? Why was it removed so quickly?
You really think instant warp in with storm is balanced? Hi look, a 4k terran MMM army that just finished a fight and is in orange/yellow/red, let's just warp in 5 templars and look at that army fall to 0... It was close to impossible to push after winning a huge fight in TvP if the protoss had templar tech back in the days. Had to wait for ghosts
I really dislike this attitude that a lot of posters seem to have. So how are these slow moving HTs going to kill your yellow and red bio army unless you overcommit? All you have to do is either run away if you are busy, or send in stimmed groups of 1 or 2 marauders to take out HTs one at a time if you have a big enough lead.
On November 05 2011 20:04 doko100 wrote: So what....
Terran has to build a ghost for 50 seconds and then has walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells... Zerg has to build an infestor for 50 seconds and then has to walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells. But Protoss should be able to warp in a High templar in 5 seconds anywhere on the map and instantly use it's spells?
protoss players...... /facepalm
First off, you need either a proxy pylon or a warp prism to do that, and secondly, there's a CD on warp gates, it's not like you can constantly warp in HTs, but I agree, KA was a bit to strong , nerfing it to 15-20 + would've been cool
So what you need a barracks to build a ghost. No shit you need a proxy pylon.... if it's to hard for you to proxy pylons then that's fine but it doesn't change the fact that it was still ridiculously OP. And no, reducing it to 15-20 energy would ahve still been OP. because as it is right now warping in an HT and waiting for it's energy in the middle of the map is still faster than building a ghost and physically walking there.
It was ridiculously imbalanced, protoss players are just being retards as usual.
That doesnt matter. Terran bio is more cost efficient than gateway units, and thus the protoss NEEDS splash. Whereas terran doesnt really need ghosts to trade efficiently. Ghosts should be slower to get, since they only need to deny storm, for the terran to have an advantage. Protoss not only needs to deny EMP with Feedback, but also land a couple of good storms to be on equal ground with terran bio.
Thats why HTs have to have a shorter deployment time.
People think that because you can warp in HT it makes up for not having the upgrade and you need to wait the same time before you can cast. But it is not the same because you have to protect the HT during the energy gathering period and it can be EMPed during that time which makes reinforcing with HT impossible and because you need AOE attack with toss going HT early on is to weak to be viable. While that does not make the game unbalanced it removes possible tactics which for me is a mistake. That being said KA was too powerful and needed to be removed, however I believe that it would have been better if HT got something else instead to make them more viable.
On November 05 2011 20:04 doko100 wrote: So what....
Terran has to build a ghost for 50 seconds and then has walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells... Zerg has to build an infestor for 50 seconds and then has to walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells. But Protoss should be able to warp in a High templar in 5 seconds anywhere on the map and instantly use it's spells?
protoss players...... /facepalm
First off, you need either a proxy pylon or a warp prism to do that, and secondly, there's a CD on warp gates, it's not like you can constantly warp in HTs, but I agree, KA was a bit to strong , nerfing it to 15-20 + would've been cool
So what you need a barracks to build a ghost. No shit you need a proxy pylon.... if it's to hard for you to proxy pylons then that's fine but it doesn't change the fact that it was still ridiculously OP. And no, reducing it to 15-20 energy would ahve still been OP. because as it is right now warping in an HT and waiting for it's energy in the middle of the map is still faster than building a ghost and physically walking there.
It was ridiculously imbalanced, protoss players are just being retards as usual.
That doesnt matter. Terran bio is more cost efficient than gateway units, and thus the protoss NEEDS splash. Whereas terran doesnt really need ghosts to trade efficiently. Ghosts should be slower to get, since they only need to deny storm, for the terran to have an advantage. Protoss not only needs to deny EMP with Feedback, but also land a couple of good storms to be on equal ground with terran bio.
Thats why HTs have to have a shorter deployment time.
This is so wrong-minded
Terran bio is NOT more cost efficient than gateway units.
Terran bio with MEDIVACS can be more cost-efficient, so long as they engage properly...and gateway units CAN be more cost-efficient so long as they engage properly.
The plain truth is that good forcefields with zealots will destroy any Terran bio far more efficiently than vice versa.
The problem is that Protosses mistakenly believe that vanilla gateway units are on the same level of tech as upped bio plus medivacs, totally ignoring the time/cost investment of stim, cs and conc shells, and the fact that medivacs are tier 3. Then they complain that Terran gets better tier 1, when the bio can no longer really be considered tier 1.
Protoss does NOT have to land good storms to be on equal ground. They just need to stop Terran from kiting Zealots. If both armies a-click big balls of units into each other there is no doubt that the Protoss will come out ahead.
There is also a fairly ridiculous idea propagated by tosses that EMP is better than storm. This is ridiculous. Even ignoring all the side benefits of storm (EMP drop anyone?), in a straight-up battle it is clearly superior:
- Yes EMP removes up to 100 shields, but how many units have 100 shields? Much of the EMP damage is overkill. - Yes EMP has the potential to deal more damage than storm, but Protoss units have higher hitpoints meaning more damage is required. Storm one-shots marines and 2-shots marauders. Remember: Protoss = low DPS high HP while Terran = high DPS low HP. EMP fits this paradigm while Storm goes against it, to the benefit of Protoss. - Storm is effective at any point in a battle. EMP is only useful at the beginning. There is no point in EMPing a half dead army while vice versa, a storm is devastating. - Terran units are smaller, making them more susceptible to AOE. - EMP does not actually deal damage, it only removes shields/energy. Protoss shields regenerate automatically, Terran needs to invest in expensive medivacs to mitigate the effect. - Too many EMPs mean wasted money/supply/rax time. Until the enemy is dead a Protoss can never have too many storms.
On November 05 2011 18:26 GhostFall wrote: Why was KA removed after just one metagame shift? How many different strategies did Protoss use to beat EMP before Blizzard decided to finally nerf EMP? Why didn't they wait until 5 Terrans were left in the GSL before removing KA?
Blizzard has been incredibly inconsistent and contradictory when it comes to balancing the game. Thors were nerfed immediately after Throzain won the TSL 3, yet it took them forever to figure out that EMP might be overpowered.
In the end, I think the fact is that EMP is overpowered, but so was KA. KA was the one thing that Protoss could rely on to make a non-Colossus build work in the end game vs EMP. And it led to some really interesting games. I wouldn't say Protoss had the major advantage, the game was pretty even at the point of KA removal. The win rate graphs show this, and when you watch old GSL games of Terran vs Protoss (pre KA removal), they feel even at the end game stage, with the seemingly better player winning.
Actually Thors were nerfed after Thorzain beat MC, Naniwa didn't have to deal with any Thor strategies in the finals.
Also i feel its pretty stupid to look at the game balance from korean code S
Yeah I agree. Let's look at the game balance from Bronze to Gold, because that's where the majority of the playerbase lies. Who cares about high level play, really?
voidray speed was overpowered, could destroy the opponents main before their army arrived at your base. (especially in pvp you could snipe some nexus and retreat without taking damage.) People never used it greatly (well i won every pvp with them especially on scrap lol.) But people started to use it in the more air favored maps and ground couldn't keep up and air like vikings had serius problem. KA was just something that was to much of an advantage over the more expensive casters (combined with colossi no one had a chance back then, which triggered the KA nerf). And people didn't had enough micro to abuse the 0.5/1,5 range of emp really. Even mass ghost died to feedback spam which is now a little different. But ghosts are more a problem for the attacking toss army, like storm is for an attacking terran army. Templars actually do fine against ghosts costwise, though i would still like 2 radius on the other spells and templars with the range advantage, but oh well.
And since ghosts generally die first in an engagement (they have to be in front to prevent the storms), warped in templars could indeed just destroy the terran army afterwards, while the zealots are tanking. But its not really a problem having hts in the back anyway with 2 storms and a feedback ready. Just wait till the ghosts are dead and then move in for the killing blow, having ghosts in the back won't help against such storms. Kiting does though since hts are slow. But a good player would use a speed prism. Generally it works quiet well. And if they kill your army they can't push since there are 1 or 2 canons guarding a templar. (2 canons and a templar are really good against damaged bio).
I personally like to storm the medivac cloud and retreat my army for a sec, most of the time they stop kiting allowing you to kill all medivacs leaving a red hp terran army, that won't be able to deal with colossi, because no vikings or no stim.
But ghosts are only a problem at pro level, where you won't get out 1 storm unimportant how hard you try. Ghosts just need a terrible micro, but it seems not enough. (or other races are to lazy with their own casters) Prism shields were btw a first try to adress the ghost issue, but it was unused so they went with a nerf.
On November 05 2011 18:26 GhostFall wrote: Why was KA removed after just one metagame shift? How many different strategies did Protoss use to beat EMP before Blizzard decided to finally nerf EMP? Why didn't they wait until 5 Terrans were left in the GSL before removing KA?
Blizzard has been incredibly inconsistent and contradictory when it comes to balancing the game. Thors were nerfed immediately after Throzain won the TSL 3, yet it took them forever to figure out that EMP might be overpowered.
In the end, I think the fact is that EMP is overpowered, but so was KA. KA was the one thing that Protoss could rely on to make a non-Colossus build work in the end game vs EMP. And it led to some really interesting games. I wouldn't say Protoss had the major advantage, the game was pretty even at the point of KA removal. The win rate graphs show this, and when you watch old GSL games of Terran vs Protoss (pre KA removal), they feel even at the end game stage, with the seemingly better player winning.
Actually Thors were nerfed after Thorzain beat MC, Naniwa didn't have to deal with any Thor strategies in the finals.
People seem to forget that Thors were buffed by Blizzard earlier. The response to Thorzain beating MC was not a nerf, it was a revert back to their original function.
When did this revert occur? Patch 1.3.3. Guess when HT KA was taken out? Patch 1.3.0
They first made it so thors could not be countered by templar tech by removing energy from them. But then once Blizzard nerfed the templar tech route heavily by taking out KA, they realized there needed to be incentive to still use HTs, so they made the Thor vulnerable to high templar once again.
On November 04 2011 23:53 ZeromuS wrote: Im not sure if KA made for a more balanced game but it presents us with a BW situation. Where one thing is really strong for one race the other race has a similarly strong spell/thing which provided for very very interesting back and forth situations.
I used to liken KA to a planetary fortress. If you are going to attack my base you damn well better know it and be prepared for an attack - not just sending small numbers of units.
What you're talking about with not sending small numbers of units to harass because you can't encourages deathball syndrome and we should be moving away from that.
Besides Templar were fine in BW without amulet. They're definitely fine now.
I wouldn't mind protoss having KA as long as they had to sacrifice something for it like making them only about to be built by gateways and not warpgates. Also the fact that the protoss already have the Collosus in their arsenal makes having something like KA very much not needed.
On November 05 2011 20:04 doko100 wrote: So what....
Terran has to build a ghost for 50 seconds and then has walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells... Zerg has to build an infestor for 50 seconds and then has to walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells. But Protoss should be able to warp in a High templar in 5 seconds anywhere on the map and instantly use it's spells?
protoss players...... /facepalm
First off, you need either a proxy pylon or a warp prism to do that, and secondly, there's a CD on warp gates, it's not like you can constantly warp in HTs, but I agree, KA was a bit to strong , nerfing it to 15-20 + would've been cool
So what you need a barracks to build a ghost. No shit you need a proxy pylon.... if it's to hard for you to proxy pylons then that's fine but it doesn't change the fact that it was still ridiculously OP. And no, reducing it to 15-20 energy would ahve still been OP. because as it is right now warping in an HT and waiting for it's energy in the middle of the map is still faster than building a ghost and physically walking there.
It was ridiculously imbalanced, protoss players are just being retards as usual.
That doesnt matter. Terran bio is more cost efficient than gateway units, and thus the protoss NEEDS splash. Whereas terran doesnt really need ghosts to trade efficiently. Ghosts should be slower to get, since they only need to deny storm, for the terran to have an advantage. Protoss not only needs to deny EMP with Feedback, but also land a couple of good storms to be on equal ground with terran bio.
Thats why HTs have to have a shorter deployment time.
This is so wrong-minded
Terran bio is NOT more cost efficient than gateway units..
Bio even w/o medivacs is more cost efficient than gateway units. And with medivacs it is more cost efficient than a composition consisting of chargelots and blink stalkers.
On November 05 2011 21:25 _Search_ wrote:Terran bio with MEDIVACS can be more cost-efficient, so long as they engage properly...and gateway units CAN be more cost-efficient so long as they engage properly..
Assuming noone has a clear positional advantage in the engagement, bio is superior.
I cant believe that we are discussing this. Its so retarded. There is a reason why storm and colossi are in the game. And that reason being, gateway units SUCK.
On November 05 2011 21:25 _Search_ wrote:The plain truth is that good forcefields with zealots will destroy any Terran bio far more efficiently than vice versa.
That is a rare occasion, and is dependent on the terran player failing hard.
On November 05 2011 21:25 _Search_ wrote:The problem is that Protosses mistakenly believe that vanilla gateway units are on the same level of tech as upped bio plus medivacs, totally ignoring the time/cost investment of stim, cs and conc shells, and the fact that medivacs are tier 3. Then they complain that Terran gets better tier 1, when the bio can no longer really be considered tier 1.
They are on the same level as upped bio w/o medivacs. And even in that situation gate units fail hard.
On November 05 2011 21:25 _Search_ wrote:Protoss does NOT have to land good storms to be on equal ground. They just need to stop Terran from kiting Zealots. If both armies a-click big balls of units into each other there is no doubt that the Protoss will come out ahead.
Only noobs play like that, and balance at that level of play doesnt concern me.
Stopping stimmed bio from kiting zealots is not a trivial matter. Terran gamers such as yourself are getting accustomed to brilliant FF micro, and think it involves 0 skill, while in reality it is much harder to do than kite. Kitting is just a repetition of ultra easy tasks, while casting perfect FFs requires precision and fast reflexes. Its the difference between getting spot on shots with a sniper rifle and riddling something with holes with a minigun.
On November 05 2011 21:25 _Search_ wrote:There is also a fairly ridiculous idea propagated by tosses that EMP is better than storm. This is ridiculous. Even ignoring all the side benefits of storm (EMP drop anyone?), in a straight-up battle it is clearly superior:
- Yes EMP removes up to 100 shields, but how many units have 100 shields? Much of the EMP damage is overkill. - Yes EMP has the potential to deal more damage than storm, but Protoss units have higher hitpoints meaning more damage is required. Storm one-shots marines and 2-shots marauders. Remember: Protoss = low DPS high HP while Terran = high DPS low HP. EMP fits this paradigm while Storm goes against it, to the benefit of Protoss. - Storm is effective at any point in a battle. EMP is only useful at the beginning. There is no point in EMPing a half dead army while vice versa, a storm is devastating. - Terran units are smaller, making them more susceptible to AOE. - EMP does not actually deal damage, it only removes shields/energy. Protoss shields regenerate automatically, Terran needs to invest in expensive medivacs to mitigate the effect. - Too many EMPs mean wasted money/supply/rax time. Until the enemy is dead a Protoss can never have too many storms.
EMP is better in the context of the terran race, than storm is in the context of the protoss race. F.e. EMP doesnt need to be able to kill workers, when you can put 8 rines in a medivac, and have a much more potent harassing tool, than the protoss will ever have. 8 rines + madivac is also cheaper than 2 HTs + prism, and has the potential to do just as much damage.
1) EMP does maximum damage all the time. Hitting a stalkers means that you are doing 80hp damage per unit. That is more than storm will do in 99% of situations. EMP damage also cannot be prevented through micro on the part of the protoss player.
2) No, more damage is not required, since toss units are based on the paradigm of high HP, low DPS. Bio is more than capable to destroy gate units w/o EMP. (with its high DPS, and high speed after stim)
3) EMP does not need to be effective after the first round of EMPs land, since it deals damage instantly. Storm deals damage every time, because it is not instant, and can be microed out of. Most of the times storm does maybe 20 damage, because the terran has reacted immediately, while the first EMP does up to 100 damage in an instant, but most of the time 50-80. Thats better than storm on average.
4) EMP actually deals damage, since shields are not "extra" but part of the HP of protoss units. Your argument is retarded.
5) Thats why you make 8 Ghosts and can EMP a maxed out protoss army perfectly. Than you stim, and he cannot retreat, because bio is much faster, and there are no FFs left due to no energy. He is forced to fight, even though he has just suffered several 1000 HP damage. Would like to see storm force an unfavourable engagement like that.
On November 05 2011 20:04 doko100 wrote: So what....
Terran has to build a ghost for 50 seconds and then has walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells... Zerg has to build an infestor for 50 seconds and then has to walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells. But Protoss should be able to warp in a High templar in 5 seconds anywhere on the map and instantly use it's spells?
protoss players...... /facepalm
First off, you need either a proxy pylon or a warp prism to do that, and secondly, there's a CD on warp gates, it's not like you can constantly warp in HTs, but I agree, KA was a bit to strong , nerfing it to 15-20 + would've been cool
So what you need a barracks to build a ghost. No shit you need a proxy pylon.... if it's to hard for you to proxy pylons then that's fine but it doesn't change the fact that it was still ridiculously OP. And no, reducing it to 15-20 energy would ahve still been OP. because as it is right now warping in an HT and waiting for it's energy in the middle of the map is still faster than building a ghost and physically walking there.
It was ridiculously imbalanced, protoss players are just being retards as usual.
That doesnt matter. Terran bio is more cost efficient than gateway units, and thus the protoss NEEDS splash. Whereas terran doesnt really need ghosts to trade efficiently. Ghosts should be slower to get, since they only need to deny storm, for the terran to have an advantage. Protoss not only needs to deny EMP with Feedback, but also land a couple of good storms to be on equal ground with terran bio.
Thats why HTs have to have a shorter deployment time.
This is so wrong-minded
Terran bio is NOT more cost efficient than gateway units.
Terran bio with MEDIVACS can be more cost-efficient, so long as they engage properly...and gateway units CAN be more cost-efficient so long as they engage properly.
The plain truth is that good forcefields with zealots will destroy any Terran bio far more efficiently than vice versa.
The problem is that Protosses mistakenly believe that vanilla gateway units are on the same level of tech as upped bio plus medivacs, totally ignoring the time/cost investment of stim, cs and conc shells, and the fact that medivacs are tier 3. Then they complain that Terran gets better tier 1, when the bio can no longer really be considered tier 1.
Protoss does NOT have to land good storms to be on equal ground. They just need to stop Terran from kiting Zealots. If both armies a-click big balls of units into each other there is no doubt that the Protoss will come out ahead.
There is also a fairly ridiculous idea propagated by tosses that EMP is better than storm. This is ridiculous. Even ignoring all the side benefits of storm (EMP drop anyone?), in a straight-up battle it is clearly superior:
- Yes EMP removes up to 100 shields, but how many units have 100 shields? Much of the EMP damage is overkill. - Yes EMP has the potential to deal more damage than storm, but Protoss units have higher hitpoints meaning more damage is required. Storm one-shots marines and 2-shots marauders. Remember: Protoss = low DPS high HP while Terran = high DPS low HP. EMP fits this paradigm while Storm goes against it, to the benefit of Protoss. - Storm is effective at any point in a battle. EMP is only useful at the beginning. There is no point in EMPing a half dead army while vice versa, a storm is devastating. - Terran units are smaller, making them more susceptible to AOE. - EMP does not actually deal damage, it only removes shields/energy. Protoss shields regenerate automatically, Terran needs to invest in expensive medivacs to mitigate the effect. - Too many EMPs mean wasted money/supply/rax time. Until the enemy is dead a Protoss can never have too many storms.
You've never played protoss have you?
- I understand that bio alone isnt that much better than gateway units - When terran has medivacs of course I need AoE. Timings are build around this fact. - EMP however does basically shred the army. Its instant, and with a radius of 2 you can spam mass emps and remove half of my army's health for energy. Even if I try to move the damage you did is guaranteed. - shields on regen when Toss units have been out of battle for a period of time - without energy there is no way to prevent terran from kiting anyway so terran can many marauder conc shell kite their way to victory after mass emps.
Its easy to have single point counter points. You need to remember there is an interaction here and many many protoss armies have lost to mass emps in the past at all levels so please try to be cognizant of this fact.
Its not as bad as KA was when KA was seriously abused but at the same time without KA or an energy upgrade of any sort HTs just aren't that good or as good as collossus anymore.
The point of protoss is warp in to have an army anywhere basically. Its a race mechanic. Going for high templar basically goes against this mechanic now. I want an HT warp in ... wait. The cooldown is taken up and the cost of 2 HTs who can't attack is huge. I would rather be defending and waiting for a collossus (chronoed) and have the WG available to warp in units that can fight now than have units that can fight later, less cost effectively than collossus.
Without a faster storm or an instant storm HTs just dont mesh well with the WG mechanic and this causes problems not to mention the fact emp makes them and the archons they eventually become useless.
1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
2) 6 months of data of high level tournament play on the international level showed KA was not imbalanced at all, and in fact was the key and pivotal factor that prevented Protoss from being absolutely steam rolled by Terran's drops/bio pressure/efficient army trading. This nullifies every single KA "was overpowered" argument. KA at its best provided Protoss about a 50% win percentage, and this was before the advent of splitting units, kiting, and heavy usage of mass EMPs.
3) Blizzard's balance team (which is predominantly ran by David Kim) makes some really idiotic decisions. They simply don't think out their changes enough, nor do they look at the long term affects of their changes. KA was absolutely necessary for Protoss to defend against drops late game, and brought far more positives from an entertainment and balance value. If they felt KA was too strong against Terran, they simply could have buffed EMP to it's old radius from the beta (I bet none of you Terran whiners actually knew EMP was even stronger in the beta) to compensate.
4) Blizzard is too idiotic also in their design. The way they balance is to MAKE races fit into certain pictures that they want them to fit in. They WANT Zerg to be able to mass expand, mass units, and swarm people. They WANT Terran to use bio in EVERY single match-up. They WANT Protoss to be the deathball high tech race. All of their balance changes are revolved around these 3 design philosophies around each race. Rather than letting players make their own choices on what units to use, Blizzard continues to nerf/change units around in order to pigeon hole people into certain strategies that they feel best fit their idea of how the game should look like. It's bad for the game, and it honestly needs to stop.
Pretty much anyone arguing that KA was bad for the game / imbalanced / broken / etc. is simply wrong. A year of statistics no matter how badly compiled it is (and it is not, I've looked at how he's compiled his numbers, and for the most part he's done a solid job), is FAR, FAR, FAR more objective than anyone's opinions, even that of a professional Starcraft 2 player. Hard numbers simply do not lie. Storm itself was balanced around the fact that KA existed, and Blizzard has yet to buff Storm at all (which is a far, far, far shittier spell than EMP or Fungal Growth since you can actually dodge the damage it does). Providing say a BW size Storm would make HT ALOT more attractive as an option, since EMPs are so obscenely strong at the moment.
For literally 6 months not a single Terran player ever cried about KA. The crying about KA only came when Blizzard announced its removal simply out of the blue.
On a separate note, I would also like to bring to everyone's attention that even if KA was overpowered (and it was not, the win rates support my position in this argument, and 6 months of statistics is far more compelling evidence than anyone can come up with), it brought far more positives to the game than negatives. With KA in the game, Protoss was able to play a far more dynamic and exciting game to watch, and it made the game simply more enjoyable. If it was deemed overpowered, they should have simply brought the other casters of the other races up to speed, or perhaps buff other units in other ways to compensate (such as making mech actually viable against Protoss, *cough cough*).
Right now, the HT by far is the shittiest caster in the game. Infestors are like a thousand times better with far more utility and game breaking abilities at all points in the game (NP, Infestor Terran timing attacks, Fungal Growth lockdowns), and Ghosts are being utilized heavily and are showing how effective they truly are.
The balance changes/design changes that are being done by Blizzard have actually created a stagnate and undynamic game. One race has literally turned into a steaming pile of shit that is forced to all-in / run gimmick strategies nearly every time to even stand a chance of winning. Blizzard still hasn't addressed how Terran has literally dominated the landscape of SC2 for an entire year (I'm sorry, as stated before, this is not a statistical anomaly, it simply is virtually impossible unless one race is simply better). People wonder why games like League of Legends, DotA 2, etc. are starting to get higher payouts and more coverage. Well guess what? Maybe people are tired of seeing a broken design/imbalances/boring non-entertaining matches/etc.? If you want SC2 to succeed, you need to keep the mechanics that make the game interesting. KA was one of those mechanics. The removal of it was totally unnecessary, and has resulted in Protoss becoming the 3rd wheel at the moment.
On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:
On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units.
And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'.
If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm.
...which is a perfect comparison because ghosts also take 5 seconds to build.
/facepalm
Not like u need EMP to get back into the game after the big engagement. U have bunkers, PFs and MMM for that.
Not what we are talking about. We aren't talking about recovery after losing your army, just the way the spellcasters function and when they can cast their spells etc.
Irrelevant point is irrelevant
Thats exactly what we are talking about. Comparing spellcasters leads us to nowhere, we need to compare races.
edit: There arent any topics about Flux Vanes and we see KA thread once in a month or so, whcih only tells us that removing it wasnt really the best idea, and that KA made the game more interesting then now.
On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote: 1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
2) 6 months of data of high level tournament play on the international level showed KA was not imbalanced at all, and in fact was the key and pivotal factor that prevented Protoss from being absolutely steam rolled by Terran's drops/bio pressure/efficient army trading. This nullifies every single KA "was overpowered" argument. KA at its best provided Protoss about a 50% win percentage, and this was before the advent of splitting units, kiting, and heavy usage of mass EMPs.
3) Blizzard's balance team (which is predominantly ran by David Kim) makes some really idiotic decisions. They simply don't think out their changes enough, nor do they look at the long term affects of their changes. KA was absolutely necessary for Protoss to defend against drops late game, and brought far more positives from an entertainment and balance value. If they felt KA was too strong against Terran, they simply could have buffed EMP to it's old radius from the beta (I bet none of you Terran whiners actually knew EMP was even stronger in the beta) to compensate.
4) Blizzard is too idiotic also in their design. The way they balance is to MAKE races fit into certain pictures that they want them to fit in. They WANT Zerg to be able to mass expand, mass units, and swarm people. They WANT Terran to use bio in EVERY single match-up. They WANT Protoss to be the deathball high tech race. All of their balance changes are revolved around these 3 design philosophies around each race. Rather than letting players make their own choices on what units to use, Blizzard continues to nerf/change units around in order to pigeon hole people into certain strategies that they feel best fit their idea of how the game should look like. It's bad for the game, and it honestly needs to stop.
Pretty much anyone arguing that KA was bad for the game / imbalanced / broken / etc. is simply wrong. A year of statistics no matter how badly compiled it is (and it is not, I've looked at how he's compiled his numbers, and for the most part he's done a solid job), is FAR, FAR, FAR more objective than anyone's opinions, even that of a professional Starcraft 2 player. Hard numbers simply do not lie. Storm itself was balanced around the fact that KA existed, and Blizzard has yet to buff Storm at all (which is a far, far, far shittier spell than EMP or Fungal Growth since you can actually dodge the damage it does). Providing say a BW size Storm would make HT ALOT more attractive as an option, since EMPs are so obscenely strong at the moment.
For literally 6 months not a single Terran player ever cried about KA. The crying about KA only came when Blizzard announced its removal simply out of the blue.
On a separate note, I would also like to bring to everyone's attention that even if KA was overpowered (and it was not, the win rates support my position in this argument, and 6 months of statistics is far more compelling evidence than anyone can come up with), it brought far more positives to the game than negatives. With KA in the game, Protoss was able to play a far more dynamic and exciting game to watch, and it made the game simply more enjoyable. If it was deemed overpowered, they should have simply brought the other casters of the other races up to speed, or perhaps buff other units in other ways to compensate (such as making mech actually viable against Protoss, *cough cough*).
Right now, the HT by far is the shittiest caster in the game. Infestors are like a thousand times better with far more utility and game breaking abilities at all points in the game (NP, Infestor Terran timing attacks, Fungal Growth lockdowns), and Ghosts are being utilized heavily and are showing how effective they truly are.
The balance changes/design changes that are being done by Blizzard have actually created a stagnate and undynamic game. One race has literally turned into a steaming pile of shit that is forced to all-in / run gimmick strategies nearly every time to even stand a chance of winning. Blizzard still hasn't addressed how Terran has literally dominated the landscape of SC2 for an entire year (I'm sorry, as stated before, this is not a statistical anomaly, it simply is virtually impossible unless one race is simply better). People wonder why games like League of Legends, DotA 2, etc. are starting to get higher payouts and more coverage. Well guess what? Maybe people are tired of seeing a broken design/imbalances/boring non-entertaining matches/etc.? If you want SC2 to succeed, you need to keep the mechanics that make the game interesting. KA was one of those mechanics. The removal of it was totally unnecessary, and has resulted in Protoss becoming the 3rd wheel at the moment.
Well put and well referenced. I couldn't have explained it any better.
On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote: 1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
2) 6 months of data of high level tournament play on the international level showed KA was not imbalanced at all, and in fact was the key and pivotal factor that prevented Protoss from being absolutely steam rolled by Terran's drops/bio pressure/efficient army trading. This nullifies every single KA "was overpowered" argument. KA at its best provided Protoss about a 50% win percentage, and this was before the advent of splitting units, kiting, and heavy usage of mass EMPs.
3) Blizzard's balance team (which is predominantly ran by David Kim) makes some really idiotic decisions. They simply don't think out their changes enough, nor do they look at the long term affects of their changes. KA was absolutely necessary for Protoss to defend against drops late game, and brought far more positives from an entertainment and balance value. If they felt KA was too strong against Terran, they simply could have buffed EMP to it's old radius from the beta (I bet none of you Terran whiners actually knew EMP was even stronger in the beta) to compensate.
4) Blizzard is too idiotic also in their design. The way they balance is to MAKE races fit into certain pictures that they want them to fit in. They WANT Zerg to be able to mass expand, mass units, and swarm people. They WANT Terran to use bio in EVERY single match-up. They WANT Protoss to be the deathball high tech race. All of their balance changes are revolved around these 3 design philosophies around each race. Rather than letting players make their own choices on what units to use, Blizzard continues to nerf/change units around in order to pigeon hole people into certain strategies that they feel best fit their idea of how the game should look like. It's bad for the game, and it honestly needs to stop.
Pretty much anyone arguing that KA was bad for the game / imbalanced / broken / etc. is simply wrong. A year of statistics no matter how badly compiled it is (and it is not, I've looked at how he's compiled his numbers, and for the most part he's done a solid job), is FAR, FAR, FAR more objective than anyone's opinions, even that of a professional Starcraft 2 player. Hard numbers simply do not lie. Storm itself was balanced around the fact that KA existed, and Blizzard has yet to buff Storm at all (which is a far, far, far shittier spell than EMP or Fungal Growth since you can actually dodge the damage it does). Providing say a BW size Storm would make HT ALOT more attractive as an option, since EMPs are so obscenely strong at the moment.
For literally 6 months not a single Terran player ever cried about KA. The crying about KA only came when Blizzard announced its removal simply out of the blue.
On a separate note, I would also like to bring to everyone's attention that even if KA was overpowered (and it was not, the win rates support my position in this argument, and 6 months of statistics is far more compelling evidence than anyone can come up with), it brought far more positives to the game than negatives. With KA in the game, Protoss was able to play a far more dynamic and exciting game to watch, and it made the game simply more enjoyable. If it was deemed overpowered, they should have simply brought the other casters of the other races up to speed, or perhaps buff other units in other ways to compensate (such as making mech actually viable against Protoss, *cough cough*).
Right now, the HT by far is the shittiest caster in the game. Infestors are like a thousand times better with far more utility and game breaking abilities at all points in the game (NP, Infestor Terran timing attacks, Fungal Growth lockdowns), and Ghosts are being utilized heavily and are showing how effective they truly are.
The balance changes/design changes that are being done by Blizzard have actually created a stagnate and undynamic game. One race has literally turned into a steaming pile of shit that is forced to all-in / run gimmick strategies nearly every time to even stand a chance of winning. Blizzard still hasn't addressed how Terran has literally dominated the landscape of SC2 for an entire year (I'm sorry, as stated before, this is not a statistical anomaly, it simply is virtually impossible unless one race is simply better). People wonder why games like League of Legends, DotA 2, etc. are starting to get higher payouts and more coverage. Well guess what? Maybe people are tired of seeing a broken design/imbalances/boring non-entertaining matches/etc.? If you want SC2 to succeed, you need to keep the mechanics that make the game interesting. KA was one of those mechanics. The removal of it was totally unnecessary, and has resulted in Protoss becoming the 3rd wheel at the moment.
Well put and well referenced. I couldn't have explained it any better.
I disagree with his last paragraph, Terran hasn't dominated the landscape, Terran has done well in the GSL and other than that it close enough for each race to be irrelevant. The reason why Terran is doing so well at the top end is because there is much more to do and improve upon as a Terran, but once you break the ability to utilize it, you can do way more than P/Z counterparts, but the exchange is that its alot more difficult to utilize earlier.
On November 05 2011 00:05 Tictock wrote: Yes I think KA was rather OP because warp in storms are just too damaging and versatile. It only takes about 20-30s for a HT to get the energy it needs from warpin till Storm which adds a slight amount of planning the P has to do.
Trying to base this argument off one game is pretty silly imo, even with the old game (which is how many months old? plus hasn't there been a ton of other balance changes?)
Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT?
Really? You think the most recent patch qualifies as "wildly game changing patches"? This has to be one of the least game changing Patch for SC2 yet, Emp radius nerf is the biggest change and P's will now have an extra handfull of resources when powering upgrades (a piddly amount, but a nice bonus nonetheless). Overall I've found the patches pretty tame with the exception of a few big tweaks (such as WG nerf, ramp vision, Neral Nerf).
I think your argument is just too flimsy, and I think most people will agree that KA was OP.
I had just made my own half a4 post when I realised this post kind of summed it up. The only thing I'd like to add is that KA was bad design wise, and it's better buffing other things than implementing it again if protoss is underpowered. Because simply put it was not fine that protosses could come back from 50 food deficifits after a fight without using any kind of harass but simply warping in chargelots and storms.
KA was easily the worst designed spell in the entire game. You do realize it was impossible to drop with them just being able to warp in, feedback, and then the other one storm? two zealots cleans up the pathetic remains. Who cares if the games were more "even" at the time, it was even in a way that was ridiculous. 1-1-1 pushes are not something that is even a big deal anymore. I just watched MC smash through that shit 3 games in a row. I do think Protoss could use a slight buff to the HT, maybe +1 range to feedback?
On November 06 2011 03:27 Chinchillin wrote: no.no.no.no.no.
KA was easily the worst designed spell in the entire game. You do realize it was impossible to drop with them just being able to warp in, feedback, and then the other one storm? two zealots cleans up the pathetic remains. Who cares if the games were more "even" at the time, it was even in a way that was ridiculous. 1-1-1 pushes are not something that is even a big deal anymore. I just watched MC smash through that shit 3 games in a row. I do think Protoss could use a slight buff to the HT, maybe +1 range to feedback?
So what I get from this is, that win percentage doesn't matter, who cares that pvt has been terran favored for the past few month in a way that I would not call balanced, while it has been balanced while KA was still in. And it's a bad thing that a allin strategy doesn't work anymore? Really? Feedback range is not your issue when EMP does about 1k damage and if you are lucky enough to get storms of they can actually walk out of it.
On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote: 1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
2) 6 months of data of high level tournament play on the international level showed KA was not imbalanced at all, and in fact was the key and pivotal factor that prevented Protoss from being absolutely steam rolled by Terran's drops/bio pressure/efficient army trading. This nullifies every single KA "was overpowered" argument. KA at its best provided Protoss about a 50% win percentage, and this was before the advent of splitting units, kiting, and heavy usage of mass EMPs.
3) Blizzard's balance team (which is predominantly ran by David Kim) makes some really idiotic decisions. They simply don't think out their changes enough, nor do they look at the long term affects of their changes. KA was absolutely necessary for Protoss to defend against drops late game, and brought far more positives from an entertainment and balance value. If they felt KA was too strong against Terran, they simply could have buffed EMP to it's old radius from the beta (I bet none of you Terran whiners actually knew EMP was even stronger in the beta) to compensate.
4) Blizzard is too idiotic also in their design. The way they balance is to MAKE races fit into certain pictures that they want them to fit in. They WANT Zerg to be able to mass expand, mass units, and swarm people. They WANT Terran to use bio in EVERY single match-up. They WANT Protoss to be the deathball high tech race. All of their balance changes are revolved around these 3 design philosophies around each race. Rather than letting players make their own choices on what units to use, Blizzard continues to nerf/change units around in order to pigeon hole people into certain strategies that they feel best fit their idea of how the game should look like. It's bad for the game, and it honestly needs to stop.
Pretty much anyone arguing that KA was bad for the game / imbalanced / broken / etc. is simply wrong. A year of statistics no matter how badly compiled it is (and it is not, I've looked at how he's compiled his numbers, and for the most part he's done a solid job), is FAR, FAR, FAR more objective than anyone's opinions, even that of a professional Starcraft 2 player. Hard numbers simply do not lie. Storm itself was balanced around the fact that KA existed, and Blizzard has yet to buff Storm at all (which is a far, far, far shittier spell than EMP or Fungal Growth since you can actually dodge the damage it does). Providing say a BW size Storm would make HT ALOT more attractive as an option, since EMPs are so obscenely strong at the moment.
For literally 6 months not a single Terran player ever cried about KA. The crying about KA only came when Blizzard announced its removal simply out of the blue.
On a separate note, I would also like to bring to everyone's attention that even if KA was overpowered (and it was not, the win rates support my position in this argument, and 6 months of statistics is far more compelling evidence than anyone can come up with), it brought far more positives to the game than negatives. With KA in the game, Protoss was able to play a far more dynamic and exciting game to watch, and it made the game simply more enjoyable. If it was deemed overpowered, they should have simply brought the other casters of the other races up to speed, or perhaps buff other units in other ways to compensate (such as making mech actually viable against Protoss, *cough cough*).
Right now, the HT by far is the shittiest caster in the game. Infestors are like a thousand times better with far more utility and game breaking abilities at all points in the game (NP, Infestor Terran timing attacks, Fungal Growth lockdowns), and Ghosts are being utilized heavily and are showing how effective they truly are.
The balance changes/design changes that are being done by Blizzard have actually created a stagnate and undynamic game. One race has literally turned into a steaming pile of shit that is forced to all-in / run gimmick strategies nearly every time to even stand a chance of winning. Blizzard still hasn't addressed how Terran has literally dominated the landscape of SC2 for an entire year (I'm sorry, as stated before, this is not a statistical anomaly, it simply is virtually impossible unless one race is simply better). People wonder why games like League of Legends, DotA 2, etc. are starting to get higher payouts and more coverage. Well guess what? Maybe people are tired of seeing a broken design/imbalances/boring non-entertaining matches/etc.? If you want SC2 to succeed, you need to keep the mechanics that make the game interesting. KA was one of those mechanics. The removal of it was totally unnecessary, and has resulted in Protoss becoming the 3rd wheel at the moment.
Excellent post. It boggles my mind that there are people who consider it imbalanced for PvT to have a ~50% winrate with KA, but balanced when PvT has a ~40% winrate without KA.
On November 05 2011 00:05 Tictock wrote: Yes I think KA was rather OP because warp in storms are just too damaging and versatile. It only takes about 20-30s for a HT to get the energy it needs from warpin till Storm which adds a slight amount of planning the P has to do.
Trying to base this argument off one game is pretty silly imo, even with the old game (which is how many months old? plus hasn't there been a ton of other balance changes?)
Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT?
Really? You think the most recent patch qualifies as "wildly game changing patches"? This has to be one of the least game changing Patch for SC2 yet, Emp radius nerf is the biggest change and P's will now have an extra handfull of resources when powering upgrades (a piddly amount, but a nice bonus nonetheless). Overall I've found the patches pretty tame with the exception of a few big tweaks (such as WG nerf, ramp vision, Neral Nerf).
I think your argument is just too flimsy, and I think most people will agree that KA was OP.
I had just made my own half a4 post when I realised this post kind of summed it up. The only thing I'd like to add is that KA was bad design wise, and it's better buffing other things than implementing it again if protoss is underpowered. Because simply put it was not fine that protosses could come back from 50 food deficifits after a fight without using any kind of harass but simply warping in chargelots and storms.
Sounds like terran to me.
The other day MC had 50 supply more than MVP and still lost.
KA was fine, HTs were fine and even WG was alright, it was the combination of the three that was causing trouble. It made it painfully difficult to (re)engage a Protoss army and there was essentially no way to EMP the HTs that weren't warped in yet.
Mech play still meant Thors could be feedbacked and if you have HTs, you have a Twilight Council and Charge pretty much murders any form of Mech play. Sky Terran is still highly experimental and rely on Banshees (which again, can be feedbacked) for ground damage and marines (which are very vulnerable to Storm) for support. Neither are valid alternatives, pretty much forcing Bio from Terran.
Warp-in storms made dealing with drops extremely easy, you could just storm whereever it landed and if you wanted you could warp-in a second HT for feedback. You could then warp-in any reinforcements as needed. Compared to Terran, Protoss can defend a single or double Medivac drop far easier than Terran can defend a Warp prism drop followed by warp-ins since we can't warp-in units for defense and the main and natural are never PFs.
Storm in itself is fine and so are HTs with KA, but warp-in storms feel too much like a 'get out of jail free card' when stuff goes bad for Protoss. Just warp-in two HTs on your retreating army and storm the Bioball as it tries to chase. EMPs do ofcourse work on warping-in units but usually the Ghosts will have used their EMP at the start of the engagement and thus have no energy for EMP when Protoss retreats behind a warp-in storm.
Imagine being able to drop a Ghost like you can drop a MULE anywhere on the map with 75 energy for an instant EMP, it would be painfully overpowered without actually changing the spell or the energy or any upgrades.
I would've preferred to see that HTs that are warped in do not benefit from KA, only HTs produced out of a regular Gateway. The KA upgrade could be made a lot cheaper (and faster to research) to compensate for it. You could still have HTs with storm available, but not warp-in storms for insta-80dmg AOE whenever, wherever you need it.
im am sure that if you would put KA back into the game protoss would just dominate everything since they now konw how to use hts and zerg/terra would have nooooo chance at all against the now super strong warpprism +templar drops and totally get destroyed so hard
against terran it would also be way to strong since you can just not build hts that can be emp'ed and if the fight starts they warp them in from all sides and the terran army wont stand a chance
On November 06 2011 04:12 sVnteen wrote: im am sure that if you would put KA back into the game protoss would just dominate everything since they now konw how to use hts and zerg/terra would have nooooo chance at all against the now super strong warpprism +templar drops and totally get destroyed so hard
against terran it would also be way to strong since you can just not build hts that can be emp'ed and if the fight starts they warp them in from all sides and the terran army wont stand a chance
Im am sure that terran would do totally fine since they learned how to use ghosts after KA removal.
"warp over 9000 HTs everywhere around the map!!!11"
What boggles me most is that KA is supposed to have been bad designwise. Yes, Terran will get wiped out if he tries to finish the Protoss off immediately after a huge fight while his MM is still in the red and he doesn't micro small groups ahead to pick off HTs. However, nothing prevents them to fall back and attack again once he has a few EMPs ready and is healed up. If he could win the first fight, he will win the next one even more decisively. Protoss and Zerg also can't just roll through Terran after they win a fight, similar to how Terran can't do so in TvT or TvZ. Only in TvP it works, unless Protoss can do a 20 chargelot warpin or something.
Regarding drops, someone already quoted Time who did the math about HTs being inefficient against single medivac drops. One Storm won't cut it, and if you warp in more HTs you basically made the drop costefficient already if he picks them off. Similarly, HTs are a bit wacky when it comes to defending multipronged harass because you need to aim Storms at 2+ fronts. It is not impossible, but it is easier to warp in Chargelots/DTs especially if you have to be careful that your main army doesn't get EMPd too badly or prevent the opponent's vikings from taking shots on your colossi.
The only type of drop KA HTs would be really good against are 2+ medivac doom drops, which is a good thing in my eyes. It doesn't happen too often, but it is quite silly for a Terran to win the game because he made a desperation drop while the Protoss is moving out.
But most importantly, Storm is something that is good to watch for the spectator. The fact that you can run out of Storms and that Storm will damage the own units make it an exciting ability to watch. Any sort of Storm + Force Field combination is beautiful. Between having to spread HTs and them being so slow, getting good Storms off is really difficult and not appreciated enough. Unlike EMP or FG, you actually suffer and hit your own units if you miss, just like some milliseconds off on your forcefields can make the difference between win and loss. Nobody actually thought that warpin Storms were imbalanced or made for a bad spectator experience, it's just people retrospectively making that up. If anything, it encouraged fighting in smaller groups and/or being more aggressive because you know you have something to fall back on, which can only be good for the game overall.
On November 06 2011 03:34 iamke55 wrote: Excellent post. It boggles my mind that there are people who consider it imbalanced for PvT to have a ~50% winrate with KA, but balanced when PvT has a ~40% winrate without KA.
Depending on what you exactly meant in your post, my post below may agree/disagree with that.
I believe the balance of an individual unit does not necessarily correlate with the win-rate percent of a match. The W-L % of the match at any given point in time depends on the map pool, evolution of strategies and counter strategies combined with maturation of the potential of a unit. Until the game is mature enough and devoid of balance changes for a while, it is hard to make an argument whether a unit/ability in balanced or not.
The best example of this, in context of SC2, being the hellion. BFH have been pretty much untouched in the game since its inception. However, during the entirety of the 1st year of the game, the blue flame upgrade was rarely used and BFH strategies were non-existent. It was only in mid-2011 when Slayers hellion strategies were developed when we came to know how strong that ability was.
If you go back to late 2010 or early 2011, I do not think you would find anyone arguing the BFH were imbalanced. However, in view of current information, it can argued that BFH strategies were equally or even more 'imba' due to the fact that medivcas moved faster, Terran timings could come earlier due no bunker before rax requirements and so on.
The key point I am trying to make that even though there might have been a time period when ZvT was 50-50 split pre-BFH era, BFH were still 'imbalanced' (in quotes as imo we still just don't have enough knowledge to claim confidently) independent of the win-rate. Extending this logic to KA, it is not possible to prove that KA is imbalanced at PvT 50% or even at 40%. Until the game becomes mature enough that a lot of the unit potentials/strategies are realized, determining the balance of an individual unit/ability in terms of a matchup win-loss % is not possible as there are too many variables that come into play.
Note that by similar logic, removing KA was an equally bad idea since a local event of PvT matchup increase did not necessarily mean that KA was imbalanced at that point of time. Though I applaud Blizzard for being active with the amount of balance changes going on, I do think that they are making too many drastic changes too quick and not letting strategies evolve sufficiently. If Blizzard had strong reason/evidence to believe that KA was imba, it should have been nerfed to a point where you needed 4-5 sec after warp-in to storm and then studied how much of a difference this made instead of outright removing it.
On November 06 2011 03:34 iamke55 wrote: Excellent post. It boggles my mind that there are people who consider it imbalanced for PvT to have a ~50% winrate with KA, but balanced when PvT has a ~40% winrate without KA.
Depending on what you exactly meant in your post, my post below may agree/disagree with that.
I believe the balance of an individual unit does not necessarily correlate with the win-rate percent of a match. The W-L % of the match at any given point in time depends on the map pool, evolution of strategies and counter strategies combined with maturation of the potential of a unit. Until the game is mature enough and devoid of balance changes for a while, it is hard to make an argument whether a unit/ability in balanced or not.
The best example of this, in context of SC2, being the hellion. BFH have been pretty much untouched in the game since its inception. However, during the entirety of the 1st year of the game, the blue flame upgrade was rarely used and BFH strategies were non-existent. It was only in mid-2011 when Slayers hellion strategies were developed when we came to know how strong that ability was.
If you go back to late 2010 or early 2011, I do not think you would find anyone arguing the BFH were imbalanced. However, in view of current information, it can argued that BFH strategies were equally or even more 'imba' due to the fact that medivcas moved faster, Terran timings could come earlier due no bunker before rax requirements and so on.
The key point I am trying to make that even though there might have been a time period when ZvT was 50-50 split pre-BFH era, BFH were still 'imbalanced' (in quotes as imo we still just don't have enough knowledge to claim confidently) independent of the win-rate. Extending this logic to KA, it is not possible to prove that KA is imbalanced at PvT 50% or even at 40%. Until the game becomes mature enough that a lot of the unit potentials/strategies are realized, determining the balance of an individual unit/ability in terms of a matchup win-loss % is not possible as there are too many variables that come into play.
Note that by similar logic, removing KA was an equally bad idea since a local event of PvT matchup increase did not necessarily mean that KA was imbalanced at that point of time. Though I applaud Blizzard for being active with the amount of balance changes going on, I do think that they are making too many drastic changes too quick and not letting strategies evolve sufficiently. If Blizzard had strong reason/evidence to believe that KA was imba, it should have been nerfed to a point where you needed 4-5 sec after warp-in to storm and then studied how much of a difference this made instead of outright removing it.
The idea of KA was flawed in actual practice though. For both Terran and Zerg, starting the production of the iconic caster is an investment and risk, basically predicting you aren't going to be attacked in the next ~45s. At the very least, you won't need the abilities of the caster for the next ~45s. For Protoss, this removed all forward thinking of the HT out of the equation. If you needed storms, you just warped them in ~5s. There is no significant waiting period or forward thinking, just reaction. Especially with the archon buff, this would become an incredibly hard scenario to deal with for both Terran and Zerg.
To address other arguments about gateways being on cooldown, we're beginning to see a metagame shift where gateways are being massed beyond the income potential of Protoss. This allows them to warp in units on demand when having to address harassment forces away from their main force. Thus, the cooldown for HTs becomes moot and the only barrier is gas income. On 2-3 bases, that gives harassment opportunity for 18s at most (only 7-11s for a medivac drop) if you're relying ONLY on HTs. With zealots as a buffer, it's very easy to warp in a HT in time.
On November 06 2011 03:34 iamke55 wrote: Excellent post. It boggles my mind that there are people who consider it imbalanced for PvT to have a ~50% winrate with KA, but balanced when PvT has a ~40% winrate without KA.
Depending on what you exactly meant in your post, my post below may agree/disagree with that.
I believe the balance of an individual unit does not necessarily correlate with the win-rate percent of a match. The W-L % of the match at any given point in time depends on the map pool, evolution of strategies and counter strategies combined with maturation of the potential of a unit. Until the game is mature enough and devoid of balance changes for a while, it is hard to make an argument whether a unit/ability in balanced or not.
The best example of this, in context of SC2, being the hellion. BFH have been pretty much untouched in the game since its inception. However, during the entirety of the 1st year of the game, the blue flame upgrade was rarely used and BFH strategies were non-existent. It was only in mid-2011 when Slayers hellion strategies were developed when we came to know how strong that ability was.
If you go back to late 2010 or early 2011, I do not think you would find anyone arguing the BFH were imbalanced. However, in view of current information, it can argued that BFH strategies were equally or even more 'imba' due to the fact that medivcas moved faster, Terran timings could come earlier due no bunker before rax requirements and so on.
The key point I am trying to make that even though there might have been a time period when ZvT was 50-50 split pre-BFH era, BFH were still 'imbalanced' (in quotes as imo we still just don't have enough knowledge to claim confidently) independent of the win-rate. Extending this logic to KA, it is not possible to prove that KA is imbalanced at PvT 50% or even at 40%. Until the game becomes mature enough that a lot of the unit potentials/strategies are realized, determining the balance of an individual unit/ability in terms of a matchup win-loss % is not possible as there are too many variables that come into play.
Note that by similar logic, removing KA was an equally bad idea since a local event of PvT matchup increase did not necessarily mean that KA was imbalanced at that point of time. Though I applaud Blizzard for being active with the amount of balance changes going on, I do think that they are making too many drastic changes too quick and not letting strategies evolve sufficiently. If Blizzard had strong reason/evidence to believe that KA was imba, it should have been nerfed to a point where you needed 4-5 sec after warp-in to storm and then studied how much of a difference this made instead of outright removing it.
The idea of KA was flawed in actual practice though. For both Terran and Zerg, starting the production of the iconic caster is an investment and risk, basically predicting you aren't going to be attacked in the next ~45s. At the very least, you won't need the abilities of the caster for the next ~45s. For Protoss, this removed all forward thinking of the HT out of the equation. If you needed storms, you just warped them in ~5s. There is no significant waiting period or forward thinking, just reaction. Especially with the archon buff, this would become an incredibly hard scenario to deal with for both Terran and Zerg.
To address other arguments about gateways being on cooldown, we're beginning to see a metagame shift where gateways are being massed beyond the income potential of Protoss. This allows them to warp in units on demand when having to address harassment forces away from their main force. Thus, the cooldown for HTs becomes moot and the only barrier is gas income. On 2-3 bases, that gives harassment opportunity for 18s at most (only 7-11s for a medivac drop) if you're relying ONLY on HTs. With zealots as a buffer, it's very easy to warp in a HT in time.
Races are different.
Terran has the best defense in the game, zerg has the best production (remax in under a minute), so why is it wrong for protoss to have something equally potent?
And no, warpgates are not, since they give you no defenders advantage, since they are balanced around timing attacks.
On November 06 2011 03:34 iamke55 wrote: Excellent post. It boggles my mind that there are people who consider it imbalanced for PvT to have a ~50% winrate with KA, but balanced when PvT has a ~40% winrate without KA.
Depending on what you exactly meant in your post, my post below may agree/disagree with that.
I believe the balance of an individual unit does not necessarily correlate with the win-rate percent of a match. The W-L % of the match at any given point in time depends on the map pool, evolution of strategies and counter strategies combined with maturation of the potential of a unit. Until the game is mature enough and devoid of balance changes for a while, it is hard to make an argument whether a unit/ability in balanced or not.
The best example of this, in context of SC2, being the hellion. BFH have been pretty much untouched in the game since its inception. However, during the entirety of the 1st year of the game, the blue flame upgrade was rarely used and BFH strategies were non-existent. It was only in mid-2011 when Slayers hellion strategies were developed when we came to know how strong that ability was.
If you go back to late 2010 or early 2011, I do not think you would find anyone arguing the BFH were imbalanced. However, in view of current information, it can argued that BFH strategies were equally or even more 'imba' due to the fact that medivcas moved faster, Terran timings could come earlier due no bunker before rax requirements and so on.
The key point I am trying to make that even though there might have been a time period when ZvT was 50-50 split pre-BFH era, BFH were still 'imbalanced' (in quotes as imo we still just don't have enough knowledge to claim confidently) independent of the win-rate. Extending this logic to KA, it is not possible to prove that KA is imbalanced at PvT 50% or even at 40%. Until the game becomes mature enough that a lot of the unit potentials/strategies are realized, determining the balance of an individual unit/ability in terms of a matchup win-loss % is not possible as there are too many variables that come into play.
Note that by similar logic, removing KA was an equally bad idea since a local event of PvT matchup increase did not necessarily mean that KA was imbalanced at that point of time. Though I applaud Blizzard for being active with the amount of balance changes going on, I do think that they are making too many drastic changes too quick and not letting strategies evolve sufficiently. If Blizzard had strong reason/evidence to believe that KA was imba, it should have been nerfed to a point where you needed 4-5 sec after warp-in to storm and then studied how much of a difference this made instead of outright removing it.
The idea of KA was flawed in actual practice though. For both Terran and Zerg, starting the production of the iconic caster is an investment and risk, basically predicting you aren't going to be attacked in the next ~45s. At the very least, you won't need the abilities of the caster for the next ~45s. For Protoss, this removed all forward thinking of the HT out of the equation. If you needed storms, you just warped them in ~5s. There is no significant waiting period or forward thinking, just reaction. Especially with the archon buff, this would become an incredibly hard scenario to deal with for both Terran and Zerg.
To address other arguments about gateways being on cooldown, we're beginning to see a metagame shift where gateways are being massed beyond the income potential of Protoss. This allows them to warp in units on demand when having to address harassment forces away from their main force. Thus, the cooldown for HTs becomes moot and the only barrier is gas income. On 2-3 bases, that gives harassment opportunity for 18s at most (only 7-11s for a medivac drop) if you're relying ONLY on HTs. With zealots as a buffer, it's very easy to warp in a HT in time.
Races are different.
Terran has the best defense in the game, zerg has the best production (remax in under a minute), so why is it wrong for protoss to have something equally potent?
And no, warpgates are not, since they give you no defenders advantage, since they are balanced around timing attacks.
Protoss can warp in small defense forces ANYWHERE they have pylon power and the can remax in less than 5s. FFs and high AoE make attacking head on suicidal after a certain point in the game. But if you want to live in a world where the only advantage to gateway tech is 4 and 6 gate timing attacks, be my guest. It at least wouldn't be a surprise why you would want a massive buff to Protoss.
On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote: 1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
The first part shows bio with ups against zealots without, obvious bio win. Second part shows bio with ups against chargelots. Decisive chargelots win, even with fairly good kiting.
Maybe YOU should stop posting here, because YOU are simply wrong.
For literally 6 months not a single Terran player ever cried about KA. The crying about KA only came when Blizzard announced its removal simply out of the blue.
This totally boggles my mind. Not only is it absolutely, confoundingly untrue, it makes my head hurt to even wonder why someone would ever lie so unconvincingly.
Here's a thread from one year ago. Ironic...because it's the exact same thread as this one except the Protoss is arguing FOR KA removal.
On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote: 1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
The first part shows bio with ups against zealots without, obvious bio win. Second part shows bio with ups against chargelots. Decisive chargelots win, even with fairly good kiting.
Maybe YOU should stop posting here, because YOU are simply wrong.
I don't get your youtube video at all. Let's make ONE type of unit from the Gateway, which is 'hard countered' by one of the barrack units, and let's use TWO of the barracks units.
Try adding sentries into that mix and let's see who comes out ahead.
On November 06 2011 03:34 iamke55 wrote: Excellent post. It boggles my mind that there are people who consider it imbalanced for PvT to have a ~50% winrate with KA, but balanced when PvT has a ~40% winrate without KA.
Depending on what you exactly meant in your post, my post below may agree/disagree with that.
I believe the balance of an individual unit does not necessarily correlate with the win-rate percent of a match. The W-L % of the match at any given point in time depends on the map pool, evolution of strategies and counter strategies combined with maturation of the potential of a unit. Until the game is mature enough and devoid of balance changes for a while, it is hard to make an argument whether a unit/ability in balanced or not.
The best example of this, in context of SC2, being the hellion. BFH have been pretty much untouched in the game since its inception. However, during the entirety of the 1st year of the game, the blue flame upgrade was rarely used and BFH strategies were non-existent. It was only in mid-2011 when Slayers hellion strategies were developed when we came to know how strong that ability was.
If you go back to late 2010 or early 2011, I do not think you would find anyone arguing the BFH were imbalanced. However, in view of current information, it can argued that BFH strategies were equally or even more 'imba' due to the fact that medivcas moved faster, Terran timings could come earlier due no bunker before rax requirements and so on.
The key point I am trying to make that even though there might have been a time period when ZvT was 50-50 split pre-BFH era, BFH were still 'imbalanced' (in quotes as imo we still just don't have enough knowledge to claim confidently) independent of the win-rate. Extending this logic to KA, it is not possible to prove that KA is imbalanced at PvT 50% or even at 40%. Until the game becomes mature enough that a lot of the unit potentials/strategies are realized, determining the balance of an individual unit/ability in terms of a matchup win-loss % is not possible as there are too many variables that come into play.
Note that by similar logic, removing KA was an equally bad idea since a local event of PvT matchup increase did not necessarily mean that KA was imbalanced at that point of time. Though I applaud Blizzard for being active with the amount of balance changes going on, I do think that they are making too many drastic changes too quick and not letting strategies evolve sufficiently. If Blizzard had strong reason/evidence to believe that KA was imba, it should have been nerfed to a point where you needed 4-5 sec after warp-in to storm and then studied how much of a difference this made instead of outright removing it.
The idea of KA was flawed in actual practice though. For both Terran and Zerg, starting the production of the iconic caster is an investment and risk, basically predicting you aren't going to be attacked in the next ~45s. At the very least, you won't need the abilities of the caster for the next ~45s. For Protoss, this removed all forward thinking of the HT out of the equation. If you needed storms, you just warped them in ~5s. There is no significant waiting period or forward thinking, just reaction. Especially with the archon buff, this would become an incredibly hard scenario to deal with for both Terran and Zerg.
To address other arguments about gateways being on cooldown, we're beginning to see a metagame shift where gateways are being massed beyond the income potential of Protoss. This allows them to warp in units on demand when having to address harassment forces away from their main force. Thus, the cooldown for HTs becomes moot and the only barrier is gas income. On 2-3 bases, that gives harassment opportunity for 18s at most (only 7-11s for a medivac drop) if you're relying ONLY on HTs. With zealots as a buffer, it's very easy to warp in a HT in time.
Races are different.
Terran has the best defense in the game, zerg has the best production (remax in under a minute), so why is it wrong for protoss to have something equally potent?
And no, warpgates are not, since they give you no defenders advantage, since they are balanced around timing attacks.
Protoss can warp in small defense forces ANYWHERE they have pylon power and the can remax in less than 5s. FFs and high AoE make attacking head on suicidal after a certain point in the game. But if you want to live in a world where the only advantage to gateway tech is 4 and 6 gate timing attacks, be my guest. It at least wouldn't be a surprise why you would want a massive buff to Protoss.
It was already established, that warpgates must be balanced around attacking, therefore, they give yo no defender advantage. And you also cant remax in 5 sec, thats BS. FFs and AoE are not a plus, they are a necessity to survive.
On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote: 1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
The first part shows bio with ups against zealots without, obvious bio win. Second part shows bio with ups against chargelots. Decisive chargelots win, even with fairly good kiting.
Maybe YOU should stop posting here, because YOU are simply wrong.
I don't get your youtube video at all. Let's make ONE type of unit from the Gateway, which is 'hard countered' by one of the barrack units, and let's use TWO of the barracks units.
Try adding sentries into that mix and let's see who comes out ahead.
On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote: 1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
The first part shows bio with ups against zealots without, obvious bio win. Second part shows bio with ups against chargelots. Decisive chargelots win, even with fairly good kiting.
Maybe YOU should stop posting here, because YOU are simply wrong.
This is when people tell this guy that he is awesome except that he forgot that terran should have medivacs by the time charge is out and that zealots are very good in small excursions {defending drops would be pretty lame if they werent} and the more bio you have the higher the dps output is because they are all ranged units,
On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote: 1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
The first part shows bio with ups against zealots without, obvious bio win. Second part shows bio with ups against chargelots. Decisive chargelots win, even with fairly good kiting.
Maybe YOU should stop posting here, because YOU are simply wrong.
Maybe you should double or triple the supply, to make it more realistic. Such small army counts are not realistic, and as we all know, bio (because all units are ranged) becomes much more efficient with size.
On November 06 2011 03:34 iamke55 wrote: Excellent post. It boggles my mind that there are people who consider it imbalanced for PvT to have a ~50% winrate with KA, but balanced when PvT has a ~40% winrate without KA.
Depending on what you exactly meant in your post, my post below may agree/disagree with that.
I believe the balance of an individual unit does not necessarily correlate with the win-rate percent of a match. The W-L % of the match at any given point in time depends on the map pool, evolution of strategies and counter strategies combined with maturation of the potential of a unit. Until the game is mature enough and devoid of balance changes for a while, it is hard to make an argument whether a unit/ability in balanced or not.
The best example of this, in context of SC2, being the hellion. BFH have been pretty much untouched in the game since its inception. However, during the entirety of the 1st year of the game, the blue flame upgrade was rarely used and BFH strategies were non-existent. It was only in mid-2011 when Slayers hellion strategies were developed when we came to know how strong that ability was.
If you go back to late 2010 or early 2011, I do not think you would find anyone arguing the BFH were imbalanced. However, in view of current information, it can argued that BFH strategies were equally or even more 'imba' due to the fact that medivcas moved faster, Terran timings could come earlier due no bunker before rax requirements and so on.
The key point I am trying to make that even though there might have been a time period when ZvT was 50-50 split pre-BFH era, BFH were still 'imbalanced' (in quotes as imo we still just don't have enough knowledge to claim confidently) independent of the win-rate. Extending this logic to KA, it is not possible to prove that KA is imbalanced at PvT 50% or even at 40%. Until the game becomes mature enough that a lot of the unit potentials/strategies are realized, determining the balance of an individual unit/ability in terms of a matchup win-loss % is not possible as there are too many variables that come into play.
Note that by similar logic, removing KA was an equally bad idea since a local event of PvT matchup increase did not necessarily mean that KA was imbalanced at that point of time. Though I applaud Blizzard for being active with the amount of balance changes going on, I do think that they are making too many drastic changes too quick and not letting strategies evolve sufficiently. If Blizzard had strong reason/evidence to believe that KA was imba, it should have been nerfed to a point where you needed 4-5 sec after warp-in to storm and then studied how much of a difference this made instead of outright removing it.
The idea of KA was flawed in actual practice though. For both Terran and Zerg, starting the production of the iconic caster is an investment and risk, basically predicting you aren't going to be attacked in the next ~45s. At the very least, you won't need the abilities of the caster for the next ~45s. For Protoss, this removed all forward thinking of the HT out of the equation. If you needed storms, you just warped them in ~5s. There is no significant waiting period or forward thinking, just reaction. Especially with the archon buff, this would become an incredibly hard scenario to deal with for both Terran and Zerg.
To address other arguments about gateways being on cooldown, we're beginning to see a metagame shift where gateways are being massed beyond the income potential of Protoss. This allows them to warp in units on demand when having to address harassment forces away from their main force. Thus, the cooldown for HTs becomes moot and the only barrier is gas income. On 2-3 bases, that gives harassment opportunity for 18s at most (only 7-11s for a medivac drop) if you're relying ONLY on HTs. With zealots as a buffer, it's very easy to warp in a HT in time.
Races are different.
Terran has the best defense in the game, zerg has the best production (remax in under a minute), so why is it wrong for protoss to have something equally potent?
And no, warpgates are not, since they give you no defenders advantage, since they are balanced around timing attacks.
Protoss can warp in small defense forces ANYWHERE they have pylon power and the can remax in less than 5s. FFs and high AoE make attacking head on suicidal after a certain point in the game. But if you want to live in a world where the only advantage to gateway tech is 4 and 6 gate timing attacks, be my guest. It at least wouldn't be a surprise why you would want a massive buff to Protoss.
It was already established, that warpgates must be balanced around attacking, therefore, they give yo no defender advantage. And you also cant remax in 5 sec, thats BS. FFs and AoE are not a plus, they are a necessity to survive.
Warpgates on cooldown -> attack at 200/200 -> lose gateway units in attack -> warp in fresh set of wargate units in 5s
When was it "established" that warpgates must be balanced around timing attacks? And since when do balances around timing attacks give you no defenders advantage? Defenders advantage takes into account positioning, reinforcement, and static defense. How warp gates would ignore even one of those aspects makes no sense.
On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote: 1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
The first part shows bio with ups against zealots without, obvious bio win. Second part shows bio with ups against chargelots. Decisive chargelots win, even with fairly good kiting.
Maybe YOU should stop posting here, because YOU are simply wrong.
For literally 6 months not a single Terran player ever cried about KA. The crying about KA only came when Blizzard announced its removal simply out of the blue.
This totally boggles my mind. Not only is it absolutely, confoundingly untrue, it makes my head hurt to even wonder why someone would ever lie so unconvincingly.
Here's a thread from one year ago. Ironic...because it's the exact same thread as this one except the Protoss is arguing FOR KA removal.
1) Utilizing a strawman argument is not a really good way to make yourself look good. You put Chargelots with a tier 2 upgrade vs Marine/Maurader without Medivacs. Really? LOL. Nice argument. How about this, you put a Max Gateway unit army composition vs Max Rax Composition and see who wins? Yeah. Exactly. Please don't make me fucking laugh. You have no Colossus/Storm vs Bio, you simply die. Period.
2) One example out of how many? I still have yet to see this supposedly overpowered KA argument that existed before the patch that removed it. There were not many Terran players complaining about it until around Spring time 2011 when KA got removed.
3) The thread was immediately shut down by Plexa because it provided no significant analysis of how or why KA was imbalanced despite the fact that at the time (which even the OP stated himself) Terran was absolutely assraping Protoss left and right.
On November 06 2011 03:34 iamke55 wrote: Excellent post. It boggles my mind that there are people who consider it imbalanced for PvT to have a ~50% winrate with KA, but balanced when PvT has a ~40% winrate without KA.
Depending on what you exactly meant in your post, my post below may agree/disagree with that.
I believe the balance of an individual unit does not necessarily correlate with the win-rate percent of a match. The W-L % of the match at any given point in time depends on the map pool, evolution of strategies and counter strategies combined with maturation of the potential of a unit. Until the game is mature enough and devoid of balance changes for a while, it is hard to make an argument whether a unit/ability in balanced or not.
The best example of this, in context of SC2, being the hellion. BFH have been pretty much untouched in the game since its inception. However, during the entirety of the 1st year of the game, the blue flame upgrade was rarely used and BFH strategies were non-existent. It was only in mid-2011 when Slayers hellion strategies were developed when we came to know how strong that ability was.
If you go back to late 2010 or early 2011, I do not think you would find anyone arguing the BFH were imbalanced. However, in view of current information, it can argued that BFH strategies were equally or even more 'imba' due to the fact that medivcas moved faster, Terran timings could come earlier due no bunker before rax requirements and so on.
The key point I am trying to make that even though there might have been a time period when ZvT was 50-50 split pre-BFH era, BFH were still 'imbalanced' (in quotes as imo we still just don't have enough knowledge to claim confidently) independent of the win-rate. Extending this logic to KA, it is not possible to prove that KA is imbalanced at PvT 50% or even at 40%. Until the game becomes mature enough that a lot of the unit potentials/strategies are realized, determining the balance of an individual unit/ability in terms of a matchup win-loss % is not possible as there are too many variables that come into play.
Note that by similar logic, removing KA was an equally bad idea since a local event of PvT matchup increase did not necessarily mean that KA was imbalanced at that point of time. Though I applaud Blizzard for being active with the amount of balance changes going on, I do think that they are making too many drastic changes too quick and not letting strategies evolve sufficiently. If Blizzard had strong reason/evidence to believe that KA was imba, it should have been nerfed to a point where you needed 4-5 sec after warp-in to storm and then studied how much of a difference this made instead of outright removing it.
The idea of KA was flawed in actual practice though. For both Terran and Zerg, starting the production of the iconic caster is an investment and risk, basically predicting you aren't going to be attacked in the next ~45s. At the very least, you won't need the abilities of the caster for the next ~45s. For Protoss, this removed all forward thinking of the HT out of the equation. If you needed storms, you just warped them in ~5s. There is no significant waiting period or forward thinking, just reaction. Especially with the archon buff, this would become an incredibly hard scenario to deal with for both Terran and Zerg.
To address other arguments about gateways being on cooldown, we're beginning to see a metagame shift where gateways are being massed beyond the income potential of Protoss. This allows them to warp in units on demand when having to address harassment forces away from their main force. Thus, the cooldown for HTs becomes moot and the only barrier is gas income. On 2-3 bases, that gives harassment opportunity for 18s at most (only 7-11s for a medivac drop) if you're relying ONLY on HTs. With zealots as a buffer, it's very easy to warp in a HT in time.
Races are different.
Terran has the best defense in the game, zerg has the best production (remax in under a minute), so why is it wrong for protoss to have something equally potent?
And no, warpgates are not, since they give you no defenders advantage, since they are balanced around timing attacks.
Protoss can warp in small defense forces ANYWHERE they have pylon power and the can remax in less than 5s. FFs and high AoE make attacking head on suicidal after a certain point in the game. But if you want to live in a world where the only advantage to gateway tech is 4 and 6 gate timing attacks, be my guest. It at least wouldn't be a surprise why you would want a massive buff to Protoss.
It was already established, that warpgates must be balanced around attacking, therefore, they give yo no defender advantage. And you also cant remax in 5 sec, thats BS. FFs and AoE are not a plus, they are a necessity to survive.
Warpgates on cooldown -> attack at 200/200 -> lose gateway units in attack -> warp in fresh set of wargate units in 5s
When was it "established" that warpgates must be balanced around timing attacks? And since when do balances around timing attacks give you no defenders advantage? Defenders advantage takes into account positioning, reinforcement, and static defense. How warp gates would ignore even one of those aspects makes no sense.
1) That wont let you remax in 5 sec.
2) It was discussed to death in many threads, and even terran and zerg players agreed that due to being balanced around attacking, warpgates dont give porotoss any defenders advantage. Its quite simple, if WGs warp to any location with equal speed/efficiency, and that speed/cooldown is balanced so that protoss dont have an advantage over Z or T while attacking (means toss production has to be somewhat slower), then wehn your defending as a protoss, you have no defenders advantage. Whether you are fighting and warping in the middle of the map, or at your natural, its the same. And protoss also dont have bunkers or creep, therefore no "home-field advantage".
On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote: 1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
The first part shows bio with ups against zealots without, obvious bio win. Second part shows bio with ups against chargelots. Decisive chargelots win, even with fairly good kiting.
Maybe YOU should stop posting here, because YOU are simply wrong.
I don't get your youtube video at all. Let's make ONE type of unit from the Gateway, which is 'hard countered' by one of the barrack units, and let's use TWO of the barracks units.
Try adding sentries into that mix and let's see who comes out ahead.
Which rax unit hard counters chargelots? O_o
The one that zealots are supposed to counter once it gets a tier 1 upgrade and the other one that is good against almost every unit in the game.
On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote: 1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
The first part shows bio with ups against zealots without, obvious bio win. Second part shows bio with ups against chargelots. Decisive chargelots win, even with fairly good kiting.
Maybe YOU should stop posting here, because YOU are simply wrong.
Maybe you should double or triple the supply, to make it more realistic. Such small army counts are not realistic, and as we all know, bio (because all units are ranged) becomes much more efficient with size.
And if I had found a video with higher supplies you would be saying that bio is stronger in small numbers (which many, including Day9, often point out, and is actually more accurate).
Either way the size is irrelevant. The point I made was that bio is more cost-efficient under certain circumstances and gateway units are more cost-efficient...under certain circumstances. Zealots are THE most cost-efficient unit in the game, so long as they connect. If they're kited to death, they're useless, if not, you just bought the highest tier 1 DPS in the game in a 150 hp, 1 armor unit for 100 minerals.
It is a common Protoss lie to say that Terran tier 1 is always better than Protoss tier 1, which is why they need such powerful upper tier tech, such as imba KA.
On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote: 1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
The first part shows bio with ups against zealots without, obvious bio win. Second part shows bio with ups against chargelots. Decisive chargelots win, even with fairly good kiting.
Maybe YOU should stop posting here, because YOU are simply wrong.
Maybe you should double or triple the supply, to make it more realistic. Such small army counts are not realistic, and as we all know, bio (because all units are ranged) becomes much more efficient with size.
And if I had found a video with higher supplies you would be saying that bio is stronger in small numbers (which many, including Day9, often point out, and is actually more accurate).
Either way the size is irrelevant. The point I made was that bio is more cost-efficient under certain circumstances and gateway units are more cost-efficient...under certain circumstances. Zealots are THE most cost-efficient unit in the game, so long as they connect. If they're kited to death, they're useless, if not, you just bought the highest tier 1 DPS in the game in a 150 hp, 1 armor unit for 100 minerals.
It is a common Protoss lie to say that Terran tier 1 is always better than Protoss tier 1, which is why they need such powerful upper tier tech, such as imba KA.
I can't seriously believe you are trying to say that Gateway units are more cost effective than Terran barracks units. Theorycrafting is nice and all, but the reality is that Gateway units are totally cost inefficient, especially against Terran barracks units. If Gateway units WERE cost efficient, you'd see Protoss players spamming the living shit out of them.
And two, Chargelots in a real game get kited to death almost every single time. The only reason why they are good as that they just don't fucking die and can tank shots which allows your Colossus/HT enough time to dish out DPS. Except, Terran players figured out why the fuck do I have to Kite when I can just EMP 10 times and A-Move to victory.
Seriously, this whole ring around the rosie dance around the statistics shit has to stop. Team Liquid is better than this. You have a fucking YEAR of RAW statistics right in front of you stating that KA was pivotal and key in preventing Protoss from getting absolutely rolled (which they are right now at the moment). At best, KA allowed the match-up to remain at 50/50, and Terran hadn't even figured out how to fully play their race yet. And yet here we are, with a bunch of Terran defenders/Protoss haters simply ignoring over tens of thousands of games played that pretty much is spitting all over any kind of notion that KA was imbalanced.
The facts are in front of you. Period. I have a whole year of numbers to back up my claims. You have nothing but hearsay and opinion. You're not winning this argument, not now, not ever.
On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote: 1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
The first part shows bio with ups against zealots without, obvious bio win. Second part shows bio with ups against chargelots. Decisive chargelots win, even with fairly good kiting.
Maybe YOU should stop posting here, because YOU are simply wrong.
For literally 6 months not a single Terran player ever cried about KA. The crying about KA only came when Blizzard announced its removal simply out of the blue.
This totally boggles my mind. Not only is it absolutely, confoundingly untrue, it makes my head hurt to even wonder why someone would ever lie so unconvincingly.
Here's a thread from one year ago. Ironic...because it's the exact same thread as this one except the Protoss is arguing FOR KA removal.
1) Utilizing a strawman argument is not a really good way to make yourself look good. You put Chargelots with a tier 2 upgrade vs Marine/Maurader without Medivacs. Really? LOL. Nice argument. How about this, you put a Max Gateway unit army composition vs Max Rax Composition and see who wins? Yeah. Exactly. Please don't make me fucking laugh. You have no Colossus/Storm vs Bio, you simply die. Period.
2) One example out of how many? I still have yet to see this supposedly overpowered KA argument that existed before the patch that removed it. There were not many Terran players complaining about it until around Spring time 2011 when KA got removed.
3) The thread was immediately shut down by Plexa because it provided no significant analysis of how or why KA was imbalanced despite the fact that at the time (which even the OP stated himself) Terran was absolutely assraping Protoss left and right.
1) You mean like Zealot/Archon? Quick ups? Early immortal pushes? Please stop propagating misinformation. Please stop comparing vanilla gateway units with upped bio. Medivacs are tier 3, please stop ignoring that fact. 2) EVERYONE was complaining about Psi Storm. You said no one complained about KA until it was removed, which is a ridiculous lie. 3) This thread provides a recap of the conversation a year ago. See 2)
On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote: 1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
The first part shows bio with ups against zealots without, obvious bio win. Second part shows bio with ups against chargelots. Decisive chargelots win, even with fairly good kiting.
Maybe YOU should stop posting here, because YOU are simply wrong.
Maybe you should double or triple the supply, to make it more realistic. Such small army counts are not realistic, and as we all know, bio (because all units are ranged) becomes much more efficient with size.
And if I had found a video with higher supplies you would be saying that bio is stronger in small numbers (which many, including Day9, often point out, and is actually more accurate).
No, that is nonsense.
Ranged units - regardless which ranged unit - get better and better against meele units, with additional numbers. 1 stalker dies easily to 6 zerglings, but 30 stalkers wont die that easy against 180 zerglings. Its simple really, the larger the ball of ranged units, the harder it gets for the meele units to surround them. And if they cant surround, much of the available DPS is being wasted.
On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote: 1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
The first part shows bio with ups against zealots without, obvious bio win. Second part shows bio with ups against chargelots. Decisive chargelots win, even with fairly good kiting.
Maybe YOU should stop posting here, because YOU are simply wrong.
Maybe you should double or triple the supply, to make it more realistic. Such small army counts are not realistic, and as we all know, bio (because all units are ranged) becomes much more efficient with size.
And if I had found a video with higher supplies you would be saying that bio is stronger in small numbers (which many, including Day9, often point out, and is actually more accurate).
No, that is nonsense.
Ranged units - regardless which ranged unit - get better and better against meele units, with additional numbers. 1 stalker dies easily to 6 zerglings, but 30 stalkers wont die that easy against 180 zerglings. Its simple really, the larger the ball of ranged units, the harder it gets for the meele units to surround them. And if they cant surround, much of the available DPS is being wasted.
So, in other words, you're saying the cost-efficiency of gateway units vs. bio depends on the situation, because either could easily come out ahead, depending on numbers, terrain, etc.
On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote:2) 6 months of data of high level tournament play on the international level showed KA was not imbalanced at all, and in fact was the key and pivotal factor that prevented Protoss from being absolutely steam rolled by Terran's drops/bio pressure/efficient army trading. This nullifies every single KA "was overpowered" argument. KA at its best provided Protoss about a 50% win percentage, and this was before the advent of splitting units, kiting, and heavy usage of mass EMPs.
I'd like to see the numbers from this in games where KA was actually researched and where the terran was not smart enough to finish the game before the 15th minute mark.
1) You mean like Zealot/Archon? Quick ups? Early immortal pushes? Please stop propagating misinformation. Please stop comparing vanilla gateway units with upped bio. Medivacs are tier 3, please stop ignoring that fact.
Ignore the fact that he said MAXED. You can refute any argument when you remove key elements.
At max everyone has equal upgrades. EARLY is completely negated by the fact that he said MAXED also. A pure zealot archon army at 200/200 vs a MAXED bioball army gets obliterated unless you get some sort of sick surround/ your units are interwoven throughout theirs because most of their army is constantly doing damage while a lot of zealots and/or archons cannot engage. When you see a pure zealot archon army fighting and beating bioball its is never a maxed confrontation.
On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote: 1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
The first part shows bio with ups against zealots without, obvious bio win. Second part shows bio with ups against chargelots. Decisive chargelots win, even with fairly good kiting.
Maybe YOU should stop posting here, because YOU are simply wrong.
Maybe you should double or triple the supply, to make it more realistic. Such small army counts are not realistic, and as we all know, bio (because all units are ranged) becomes much more efficient with size.
And if I had found a video with higher supplies you would be saying that bio is stronger in small numbers (which many, including Day9, often point out, and is actually more accurate).
No, that is nonsense.
Ranged units - regardless which ranged unit - get better and better against meele units, with additional numbers. 1 stalker dies easily to 6 zerglings, but 30 stalkers wont die that easy against 180 zerglings. Its simple really, the larger the ball of ranged units, the harder it gets for the meele units to surround them. And if they cant surround, much of the available DPS is being wasted.
So, in other words, you're saying the cost-efficiency of gateway units vs. bio depends on the situation, because either could easily come out ahead, depending on numbers, terrain, etc.
Glad we agree.
No, we don not agree.
No one is going to send 10 MMs to the middle of the map, to die fighting chargelots. And even if a terran player does utilize so few units, he will not send them to some open terrain. He might drop a mineral line, and when chargelots arrive, move his units behind the minerals, and make them soooooooooo much more cost efficient against chargelots. Or, he might attack with 30MMs and rape chargelots.
The particular situation, like in the linked video, never happens in a real game. Therefore MM are much more cost efficient than gateway units.
On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote: 1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
The first part shows bio with ups against zealots without, obvious bio win. Second part shows bio with ups against chargelots. Decisive chargelots win, even with fairly good kiting.
Maybe YOU should stop posting here, because YOU are simply wrong.
Maybe you should double or triple the supply, to make it more realistic. Such small army counts are not realistic, and as we all know, bio (because all units are ranged) becomes much more efficient with size.
And if I had found a video with higher supplies you would be saying that bio is stronger in small numbers (which many, including Day9, often point out, and is actually more accurate).
No, that is nonsense.
Ranged units - regardless which ranged unit - get better and better against meele units, with additional numbers. 1 stalker dies easily to 6 zerglings, but 30 stalkers wont die that easy against 180 zerglings. Its simple really, the larger the ball of ranged units, the harder it gets for the meele units to surround them. And if they cant surround, much of the available DPS is being wasted.
So, in other words, you're saying the cost-efficiency of gateway units vs. bio depends on the situation, because either could easily come out ahead, depending on numbers, terrain, etc.
Glad we agree.
No, we don not agree.
No one is going to send 10 MMs to the middle of the map, to die fighting chargelots. And even if a terran player does utilize so few units, he will not send them to some open terrain. He might drop a mineral line, and when chargelots arrive, move his units behind the minerals, and make them soooooooooo much more cost efficient against chargelots. Or, he might attack with 30MMs and rape chargelots.
The particular situation, like in the linked video, never happens in a real game. Therefore MM are much more cost efficient than gateway units.
So, in other words, you're saying the cost-efficiency of gateway units vs. bio depends on the situation, because either could easily come out ahead, depending on numbers, terrain, etc.
On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote: 1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
The first part shows bio with ups against zealots without, obvious bio win. Second part shows bio with ups against chargelots. Decisive chargelots win, even with fairly good kiting.
Maybe YOU should stop posting here, because YOU are simply wrong.
Maybe you should double or triple the supply, to make it more realistic. Such small army counts are not realistic, and as we all know, bio (because all units are ranged) becomes much more efficient with size.
And if I had found a video with higher supplies you would be saying that bio is stronger in small numbers (which many, including Day9, often point out, and is actually more accurate).
No, that is nonsense.
Ranged units - regardless which ranged unit - get better and better against meele units, with additional numbers. 1 stalker dies easily to 6 zerglings, but 30 stalkers wont die that easy against 180 zerglings. Its simple really, the larger the ball of ranged units, the harder it gets for the meele units to surround them. And if they cant surround, much of the available DPS is being wasted.
So, in other words, you're saying the cost-efficiency of gateway units vs. bio depends on the situation, because either could easily come out ahead, depending on numbers, terrain, etc.
Glad we agree.
No, we don not agree.
No one is going to send 10 MMs to the middle of the map, to die fighting chargelots. And even if a terran player does utilize so few units, he will not send them to some open terrain. He might drop a mineral line, and when chargelots arrive, move his units behind the minerals, and make them soooooooooo much more cost efficient against chargelots. Or, he might attack with 30MMs and rape chargelots.
The particular situation, like in the linked video, never happens in a real game. Therefore MM are much more cost efficient than gateway units.
So, in other words, you're saying the cost-efficiency of gateway units vs. bio depends on the situation, because either could easily come out ahead, depending on numbers, terrain, etc.
Do we really have to argue about gateway units vs bio? What do you think is the reason why T can just go bio in pvt while protoss always needs some sort of AoE damage whether it's psi storm or colossi to win. Zealots get kited to death, marauders destroy stalker hard, and sentry suffer hard from emp. Now if we leave out ghost we have to leave out archons as well, and mass chargelot won't ever win anything vs MM, nor do stalker or sentries.
On November 06 2011 04:15 Akhee wrote: storm is not even good, why would KA be OP? just get them back
make a poll, lets vote ~~
Storm is great, I don't get P players saying its bad. It does a lot of damage, the problem is its so easily negated.
i dont get what you saying... its like "its good but its bad", im almost sure everyone even in gold league can micro out of storms with at least 2 seconds reaction (very slow), 40 damage for 150 gas + research and tier 3 is not that good...
This thread is just symptomatic of the bipolar nature of TL's viewing base. A Protoss (arguably the 2 best in the world atm) manages to win a tournament against weak T and Z where the biggest threat is taken out by Z who has a psychological problem against P and herp derp we're balanced and everyone is doing ok.
Flash forward 2-3 weeks of GSL and we have this thread popup.
edit: there was a beautiful post 2 pages back quoted by impke.
On November 06 2011 06:35 superstartran wrote: Seriously, this whole ring around the rosie dance around the statistics shit has to stop. Team Liquid is better than this. You have a fucking YEAR of RAW statistics right in front of you stating that KA was pivotal and key in preventing Protoss from getting absolutely rolled (which they are right now at the moment). At best, KA allowed the match-up to remain at 50/50, and Terran hadn't even figured out how to fully play their race yet. And yet here we are, with a bunch of Terran defenders/Protoss haters simply ignoring over tens of thousands of games played that pretty much is spitting all over any kind of notion that KA was imbalanced.
Wow, you are just plain wrong and I don't know why you can't see it. 2 months AFTER KA was removed, we had the most balanced month of pro SC2 ever. That is plenty of time for the metagame to shift around KA removal, and it was FINE. There is absolutely no evidence that the KA removal had any significant effect on balance in PvT, and only slight evidence it affected PvZ. In fact, through all the whining and complaining Protoss does about Terran, it remains the most stable match-up currently with only a 47-53 split (T favored). When KA was removed, it was a 49-51 split, with even P edging out in June in the matchup.
Either stop lying to make people believe you or learn how to read a chart.
On November 06 2011 06:44 IVN wrote: Ranged units - regardless which ranged unit - get better and better against meele units, with additional numbers. 1 stalker dies easily to 6 zerglings, but 30 stalkers wont die that easy against 180 zerglings. Its simple really, the larger the ball of ranged units, the harder it gets for the meele units to surround them. And if they cant surround, much of the available DPS is being wasted.
This is a man who have never tried to fight 180 zerglings with 30 stalkers.
On November 06 2011 06:44 IVN wrote: Ranged units - regardless which ranged unit - get better and better against meele units, with additional numbers. 1 stalker dies easily to 6 zerglings, but 30 stalkers wont die that easy against 180 zerglings. Its simple really, the larger the ball of ranged units, the harder it gets for the meele units to surround them. And if they cant surround, much of the available DPS is being wasted.
This is a man who have never tried to fight 180 zerglings with 30 stalkers.
Stalkers would die, but still be much more efficient, than say 5 stalkers vs 30 zerglings.
On November 06 2011 06:35 superstartran wrote: Seriously, this whole ring around the rosie dance around the statistics shit has to stop. Team Liquid is better than this. You have a fucking YEAR of RAW statistics right in front of you stating that KA was pivotal and key in preventing Protoss from getting absolutely rolled (which they are right now at the moment). At best, KA allowed the match-up to remain at 50/50, and Terran hadn't even figured out how to fully play their race yet. And yet here we are, with a bunch of Terran defenders/Protoss haters simply ignoring over tens of thousands of games played that pretty much is spitting all over any kind of notion that KA was imbalanced.
Wow, you are just plain wrong and I don't know why you can't see it. 2 months AFTER KA was removed, we had the most balanced month of pro SC2 ever. That is plenty of time for the metagame to shift around KA removal, and it was FINE. There is absolutely no evidence that the KA removal had any significant effect on balance in PvT, and only slight evidence it affected PvZ. In fact, through all the whining and complaining Protoss does about Terran, it remains the most stable match-up currently with only a 47-53 split (T favored). When KA was removed, it was a 49-51 split, with even P edging out in June in the matchup.
Either stop lying to make people believe you or learn how to read a chart.
Oh yes, let's just ignore the 2 months inbetween that show that Terran started to absolutely dominate P all over the race. Or ignore the other 3 other months that also show that Terran pretty much rocking Protoss.
53/47 split is huge especially considering the number of games played; it gets even worse when you take a look at only Korean level games.
Don't worry though, someone obviously just wants to strawman continuously in order to defend their overpowered as fuck race that has total domination across the board against all the races in every single tournament. The only people who are arguing are those who continously deny the fact that Terran dominates the tournament landscape (and pretty much any mid to high level play), despite the fact that Terran basically assrapes Zerg 58% of the time, and Protoss 53% of the time. Of course you would want to argue that things like KA needed to be removed; it actually made the game fair so you didn't have free reign to drop a Protoss player to death and basically win just because one drop made it through.
On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote: 1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
The first part shows bio with ups against zealots without, obvious bio win. Second part shows bio with ups against chargelots. Decisive chargelots win, even with fairly good kiting.
Maybe YOU should stop posting here, because YOU are simply wrong.
Maybe you should double or triple the supply, to make it more realistic. Such small army counts are not realistic, and as we all know, bio (because all units are ranged) becomes much more efficient with size.
And if I had found a video with higher supplies you would be saying that bio is stronger in small numbers (which many, including Day9, often point out, and is actually more accurate).
No, that is nonsense.
Ranged units - regardless which ranged unit - get better and better against meele units, with additional numbers. 1 stalker dies easily to 6 zerglings, but 30 stalkers wont die that easy against 180 zerglings. Its simple really, the larger the ball of ranged units, the harder it gets for the meele units to surround them. And if they cant surround, much of the available DPS is being wasted.
So, in other words, you're saying the cost-efficiency of gateway units vs. bio depends on the situation, because either could easily come out ahead, depending on numbers, terrain, etc.
Glad we agree.
No, we don not agree.
No one is going to send 10 MMs to the middle of the map, to die fighting chargelots. And even if a terran player does utilize so few units, he will not send them to some open terrain. He might drop a mineral line, and when chargelots arrive, move his units behind the minerals, and make them soooooooooo much more cost efficient against chargelots. Or, he might attack with 30MMs and rape chargelots.
The particular situation, like in the linked video, never happens in a real game. Therefore MM are much more cost efficient than gateway units.
So, in other words, you're saying the cost-efficiency of gateway units vs. bio depends on the situation, because either could easily come out ahead, depending on numbers, terrain, etc.
Glad we agree.
What kind of silver league level analysis is this bullshit? Gateway units suck against Barracks units, period. They are there to tank damage for Storms and Colossus to do damage. Period. It's only when you are running on 5+ bases with 70+ probes and 15+ Warpgates do Chargelots really become scary at all, and even then all you do simply go Marine heavy with EMPs and you'll eat them alive regardless.
In nearly EVERY situation Barracks units are more cost effective than their Gateway counterparts. They do more damage, have more utility, all of them are ranged, are able to harass far better, are more effective at killing buildings (Mauraders snipe tech buildings and Nexus in like 3 seconds), and generally are far more flexible in what they can do. To argue that Gateway units are more cost efficient is just absolutely retarded, and anyone trying to do so obviously either
1) Doesn't play the game at remotely any decent level
This thread should really be closed, people are either just attacking each other or discussing how bio is better than gateway units. This is not producing good discussion anymore.
On November 06 2011 10:59 Spicy_Curry wrote: This thread should really be closed, people are either just attacking each other or discussing how bio is better than gateway units. This is not producing good discussion anymore.
More like the only thing is Terran players trying to draw the argument away from the core facts; KA at most made the match-up even. Those arguing that the game was balanced after the removal forget that 5 out of the 6 months after KA was removed have shown that Terran has a pretty significant advantage over Protoss in tournament play. It only gets worse when you look at Korean level statistics over those 6 months, with Terran having obscene amounts of success (upwards towards 60% in certain months) against Protoss.
It's completely asinine to think that KA was somehow overpowered, yet you have a shitload of Terran players saying that Bio's insane DPS is ok, or that EMPs are fine against Protoss, etc. despite the fact that they have been railing Protoss in the ass for nearly 6 months on end in tournament play, particularly in Korea.
This argument only gets more asinine when you see that Fungal Growth and EMP are far more cost efficient energy wise, and are on units that have far more utility than the HT does.
What I've seen a lot in this thread is 'Terran is OP versus Protoss, but the win rate was as close as its ever been to 50/50 when KA was in the game'. That leads me to believe KA is also OP, only Protoss don't get to have their OP thing against Terran.
That kind of balance makes me grimace to be honest. I would much rather Terran was nerfed so that they were no longer OP against Protoss, rather than have two overpowered things battling it out.
I am under the assumption BW had situations such as this (I didn't play it). Personally I don't like this kind of balancing, but it might just be me.
On November 06 2011 11:06 HystericaLaughter wrote: What I've seen a lot in this thread is 'Terran is OP versus Protoss, but the win rate was as close as its ever been to 50/50 when KA was in the game'. That leads me to believe KA is also OP, only Protoss don't get to have their OP thing against Terran.
That kind of balance makes me grimace to be honest. I would much rather Terran was nerfed so that they were no longer OP against Protoss, rather than have two overpowered things battling it out.
I am under the assumption BW had situations such as this (I didn't play it). Personally I don't like this kind of balancing, but it might just be me.
No, Vultures were OP as fuck in the right hands. You're downright crazy if you think otherwise. Tanks/Turrets were really damn close to it too. However, this was counteracted by the fact that Protoss had some things borderline OP like Reaver drops, Carriers, Arbiters, and good Storms (which were HARD to dodge and move out of).
What made BW great was that nearly every single damn unit in the game had something that most players would consider today "overpowered." You know how much crying there would be right now if the Vulture or Reaver were still in the game? LOL.
On November 06 2011 11:06 HystericaLaughter wrote: What I've seen a lot in this thread is 'Terran is OP versus Protoss, but the win rate was as close as its ever been to 50/50 when KA was in the game'. That leads me to believe KA is also OP, only Protoss don't get to have their OP thing against Terran.
That kind of balance makes me grimace to be honest. I would much rather Terran was nerfed so that they were no longer OP against Protoss, rather than have two overpowered things battling it out.
I am under the assumption BW had situations such as this (I didn't play it). Personally I don't like this kind of balancing, but it might just be me.
No, Vultures were OP as fuck in the right hands. You're downright crazy if you think otherwise. Tanks/Turrets were really damn close to it too. However, this was counteracted by the fact that Protoss had some things borderline OP like Reaver drops, Carriers, Arbiters, and good Storms (which were HARD to dodge and move out of).
What made BW great was that nearly every single damn unit in the game had something that most players would consider today "overpowered." You know how much crying there would be right now if the Vulture or Reaver were still in the game? LOL.
I think you mean yes? OP thing against OP thing? Those were the situations that I was talking about. Maybe the game would be boring without features like that, but I don't like them
I liked the idea of comparing KA to planetary in pvt. I do agree it'd be too easy to just warp in and storm mineral lines though too, but only for pvp and pvz because scvs have more hp and mules make up the difference very easily and terran should be catching up on workers by the later game when storm drops are potential threats. Mules are meant to balance out against injects and chrono, but once I have all my probes, in theory, spending chrono on upgrades and such balances out still macro wise. Only problem imo is that ghosts wreck protoss armies even if i'm ahead on upgrades, so if I have insta or much quicker storms from KA, then I can try to even this indifference out. Emp nerf makes sense, but not in all aspects to me
The Khaydarin Amulet phase was the most beautiful period of PvT in the history of StarCraft 2, as far as I'm concerned. The problem was that in the late game, Khaydarin Amulet made Protoss extremely difficult to harass while not taking much away from the Colossus ball. One of either the Colossi or Khaydarin Amulet had to go, and unfortunately Blizzard chose Khaydarin Amulet. And the greatest style of Protoss play in StarCraft 2 died.
On November 06 2011 10:59 Spicy_Curry wrote: This thread should really be closed, people are either just attacking each other or discussing how bio is better than gateway units. This is not producing good discussion anymore.
More like the only thing is Terran players trying to draw the argument away from the core facts; KA at most made the match-up even. Those arguing that the game was balanced after the removal forget that 5 out of the 6 months after KA was removed have shown that Terran has a pretty significant advantage over Protoss in tournament play. It only gets worse when you look at Korean level statistics over those 6 months, with Terran having obscene amounts of success (upwards towards 60% in certain months) against Protoss.
It's completely asinine to think that KA was somehow overpowered, yet you have a shitload of Terran players saying that Bio's insane DPS is ok, or that EMPs are fine against Protoss, etc. despite the fact that they have been railing Protoss in the ass for nearly 6 months on end in tournament play, particularly in Korea.
This argument only gets more asinine when you see that Fungal Growth and EMP are far more cost efficient energy wise, and are on units that have far more utility than the HT does.
Why are you so upset about TvP winrates? ZvP is WAY more one-sided. Your arguments show only the most superficial analysis (lots of Terrans in Code S, but no Tosses? TERRAN IMBA!!)
I also don't think "strawman" means what you think it does. No one is misrepresenting your position.
Edit: In fact, of all the matchups, according to the winrates TvP is the most balanced. I don't ever go by winrates to decide balance, but for those who do...
On November 05 2011 16:38 storywriter wrote: Even though I'm not entirely convinced that KA should come back in its original form, I'm baffled at the argument most terrans are making: that a terran should be able to punish a protoss heavily after winning an engagement.
I never ever attack into a terran base after winning a battle. why? because I know that he's going to have an army waiting there if not also a planetary. In fact, in most games I win, the terran ggs before I've even set foot inside their base after I've drained their resources. Maybe terran bio shouldn't be able to run into a protoss base with orange hp and wreak havoc. I mean storm can only do so much. If the terran does indeed crush the protoss and has a ton of green marauders left, KA isn't going to save the protoss. But if the bio units are indeed in the orange and about to die from a few storms (terran can still dodge the storms too), that means that the protoss wasn't completely hopeless in the preceding battle and maybe deserves to be able to defend his bases (and terran always has the option to fall back and save his units).
I agree. Some people are arguing Terrans should win after one good engagement, but we all know that is not true when a Protoss wins an engagement against Terran. He can't just go attack in most games, it turns into a longer game. This is why we see so many MULE comeback stories as well. How about some KA comeback stories again? Really, put it back in the game in some nerfed form and Protoss would do so much better in tournaments.
On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all
Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal.
Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems.
And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Also sums up the state of affairs pretty well. Protoss can't lose a fair sized engagement because they can't build anything that can stand up to a small medium bio army with healing. Not unless 2 colossus pop at the perfect time or if the fight was on the other side of the map from their bases to give them time.
KA gave flexibility to the non flexible race. If it was too good, why not a nerfed version of it? Or does protoss just have to be ahead on bases and never lose an engagement and have near perfect spotting/drop defense to be even PvT in the late game?
On November 05 2011 16:38 storywriter wrote: Even though I'm not entirely convinced that KA should come back in its original form, I'm baffled at the argument most terrans are making: that a terran should be able to punish a protoss heavily after winning an engagement.
I never ever attack into a terran base after winning a battle. why? because I know that he's going to have an army waiting there if not also a planetary. In fact, in most games I win, the terran ggs before I've even set foot inside their base after I've drained their resources. Maybe terran bio shouldn't be able to run into a protoss base with orange hp and wreak havoc. I mean storm can only do so much. If the terran does indeed crush the protoss and has a ton of green marauders left, KA isn't going to save the protoss. But if the bio units are indeed in the orange and about to die from a few storms (terran can still dodge the storms too), that means that the protoss wasn't completely hopeless in the preceding battle and maybe deserves to be able to defend his bases (and terran always has the option to fall back and save his units).
I agree. Some people are arguing Terrans should win after one good engagement, but we all know that is not true when a Protoss wins an engagement against Terran. He can't just go attack in most games, it turns into a longer game. This is why we see so many MULE comeback stories as well. How about some KA comeback stories again? Really, put it back in the game in some nerfed form and Protoss would do so much better in tournaments.
How is that not true when protoss wins an engagement? Especially super lategame, you kill the protoss army and then he warp ins half his army again and you have to reinforce and fight another full army.
Warpgate mechanic just completely shits on the Barrack/Factory/Starport of Terran, especially lategame.
On November 05 2011 16:38 storywriter wrote: Even though I'm not entirely convinced that KA should come back in its original form, I'm baffled at the argument most terrans are making: that a terran should be able to punish a protoss heavily after winning an engagement.
I never ever attack into a terran base after winning a battle. why? because I know that he's going to have an army waiting there if not also a planetary. In fact, in most games I win, the terran ggs before I've even set foot inside their base after I've drained their resources. Maybe terran bio shouldn't be able to run into a protoss base with orange hp and wreak havoc. I mean storm can only do so much. If the terran does indeed crush the protoss and has a ton of green marauders left, KA isn't going to save the protoss. But if the bio units are indeed in the orange and about to die from a few storms (terran can still dodge the storms too), that means that the protoss wasn't completely hopeless in the preceding battle and maybe deserves to be able to defend his bases (and terran always has the option to fall back and save his units).
I agree. Some people are arguing Terrans should win after one good engagement, but we all know that is not true when a Protoss wins an engagement against Terran. He can't just go attack in most games, it turns into a longer game. This is why we see so many MULE comeback stories as well. How about some KA comeback stories again? Really, put it back in the game in some nerfed form and Protoss would do so much better in tournaments.
How is that not true when protoss wins an engagement? Especially super lategame, you kill the protoss army and then he warp ins half his army again and you have to reinforce and fight another full army.
Warpgate mechanic just completely shits on the Barrack/Factory/Starport of Terran, especially lategame.
It usually depends on keeping the durable units. Gateway units are crap against barrack units so keeping the Collossus is key for the following engagement.
On November 05 2011 19:47 Tristran wrote: Believe me I love High Templar, infact they are my favourite unit. I love watching storms land perfectly on huge clumps of bio, especially when that whole ball just explodes from it. Protoss is also my played race so, heres my opinion.
While bringing back KA would certainly help Protoss, it would also overpower them hugely. Yes I am frustrated and annoyed with Terran lately because of how easily they roll over Protoss and how 1 easy to use EMP can shut down a vast amount of units with incredibly expensive tech. I am just biding my time and hoping Blizzard get the balance correct. If they reintroduced KA now, it would firstly make it far easier to defend expansions vs terran. Someone mentioned earlier that KA is likened to a planetary fortress, ie: you better know what your doing if your going to attack my base. However this "planetary fortress" is able to appear almost anywhere in the Protoss' base and land a giant amount of damage right on your army in seconds. Multiple times. KA is more like a... super storm that makes the protoss so hard to attack that you better bring your whole freaking army and be watching it perfectly, ignoring your macro, and also letting the Protoss know exactly where your army is so he can go happily wipe your whole base off the face of the map, or set up a sick ambush, while you try to keep fighting through seemingly endless waves of instant storms.
This is not to mention the offensive capabilities that KA has. Firstly it allows you to hold almost any position on the map where you have a pylon. The enemy darent go near it. It also means that warp prism harass would become stronger. It means the carry space of the Prism could be used on Zealots or DT's which are unloaded to go hacking away at whatever, while the templar are warped in to immidiately storm. Could you imagine a sentry drop, blocking the workers, then warping in HT's to storm them immidiately? I think you'd probably rage quit. You could also phase out whole areas of the enemies own base with the threat of these storms.
I long for a balanced game and to see more Protoss in tournaments again.. but bringing back KA is definitely not the way to go. It would completley wreck the balance in the opposite direction, I am sick of the amount of Terrans at the moment but I dont want to see them all gone. I'd rather not have 20 Protoss in the GSL thanks... (nightmares of PvP...)
I want to comment on the planetary fortress vs warp in storm comparison. They are kind of similar, but the warp in storm has exactly one chance to hit. Just one. You dodge it once, and it's essentially gone forever because it would take 132 seconds for the mana to regen. So he warps in two... that's two storms you have to dodge, then maybe deal with an archon many seconds later. If he warps in 5+ HTs? That's still able to be hit by a couple of EMPs... don't forget only one EMP is needed for a newly warped in KA HT to bring it to zero energy. And if he warps in a whole army? Terran is faster at moving out from that position and hitting something else.
How many times can a planetary fire before it goes down? Infinite if you don't have enough AOE to kill the workers I think.
And if Terran bring ghosts with them, couldn't they expect to shut down some of the warped in HT even with KA? Up ramps would be harder, but it's easier for Terran to scan and EMP up a ramp than any other ground based army to go up a ramp. Scan avoids cannons and whatever, and you just have to get your high range EMP off if the HTs are in range to be hit. If they are out of range, you see it with your scan and you can play accordingly... you can pick off cannons or whatever then send a few marauders or cloaked ghosts in a medivac, low energy to avoid feedback, to snipe HTs.
KA makes harassing and finishing a Protoss harder, but with good control I see options to get in. Can it be done with simple stim kiting like against the current Protoss defense after they are caught out of position or on the rebound from a bad engagement? No. Is that such a terrible problem or does it actually make the game more entertaining?
Revert archon buffs, revert emp nerfs, bring back KA.
Compare the archon and high templar in sc2 to broodwar, in BW the templar was the be all ebd all unit, and the archon was useless. In sc2 this is reversed.
On November 07 2011 00:21 CellTech wrote: Revert archon buffs, revert emp nerfs, bring back KA.
Compare the archon and high templar in sc2 to broodwar, in BW the templar was the be all ebd all unit, and the archon was useless. In sc2 this is reversed.
On November 07 2011 00:21 CellTech wrote: Revert archon buffs, revert emp nerfs, bring back KA.
Compare the archon and high templar in sc2 to broodwar, in BW the templar was the be all ebd all unit, and the archon was useless. In sc2 this is reversed.
(PvT of course)
Nowadays anyone is talking about BW not knowing a thing...
On November 04 2011 23:51 RemrafGrez wrote: Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT?
Regardless of the problems in PvT, KA nerf was actually for PvZ. 100% of zerg harass units are hard hard countered by Templar. Instantly having infinite psi storms made mutalisks and zerglings not worth making, which then guaranteed a composition you could roll with a deathball.
It will never come back, because instant storms make protoss bases unassailable by zerg units, in a game where protoss bases are already pretty much unassailable in the late game.
Thats why protoss got other buffs now to make up for it. Hopefully the EMP nerf will be the right thing to get it balanced up.
For the record, the actual comparison between KA and PF's goes like this: The terran pays ahead of time for the PF. If you leave 1 templar at your expansions now, That's the same as a PF. KA would be like a terran leaving his command center un-upgraded, and switching to PF mode instantly the second you attack.
On November 07 2011 00:21 CellTech wrote: Revert archon buffs, revert emp nerfs, bring back KA.
Compare the archon and high templar in sc2 to broodwar, in BW the templar was the be all ebd all unit, and the archon was useless. In sc2 this is reversed.
(PvT of course)
Get informed, son. Archons were much, much better in BW, because there were few units, that were faster. Also, archons had a much higher attack rate and larger splash. A couple of archons could kill infinite mutas or lings in BW. Having a couple of archons in your army would make every zerg cry. Having a couple of archons in your army in SC2 would at best make a zerg go "¯\_(ツ)_/¯".
3 of you idiots quoted "(PvT of course)" but clearly didn't get that far into my post.
Please learn to read, did I say PvT or PvZ. Archons were worse in PvT because they effectively had 10 hp because the EMP was complete shield depletion. Never did I mention PvZ or PvP.
Not to mention they'd have to travel through a minefield/mass siege tank line. Clearly you nubs above have never even seen a single Broodwar game / are probably 12 years old.
On November 07 2011 02:43 CellTech wrote: Please learn to read, did I say PvT or PvZ. Archons were worse in PvT because they effectively had 10 hp because the EMP was complete shield depletion. Never did I mention PvZ or PvP.
Not to mention they'd have to travel through a minefield/mass siege tank line. Clearly you nubs above have never even seen a single Broodwar game / are probably 12 years old.
Archons werent used in PvT, because there were better tanking and anti mine units (zealots), and because of the size of mech units, splash wasnt too helpful. Besides, having HTs for storm (which had insane radius compared to SC2) was more important, than having them for archons. Archons werent bad, there were just better options.
In HotS, if mech becomes popular (thx to warhounds and new hellions), you wont be seeing archons either.
On November 07 2011 02:43 CellTech wrote: Please learn to read, did I say PvT or PvZ. Archons were worse in PvT because they effectively had 10 hp because the EMP was complete shield depletion. Never did I mention PvZ or PvP.
Not to mention they'd have to travel through a minefield/mass siege tank line. Clearly you nubs above have never even seen a single Broodwar game / are probably 12 years old.
Archons werent used in PvT, because there were better tanking and anti mine units (zealots), and because of the size of mech units, splash wasnt too helpful. Besides, having HTs for storm (which had insane radius compared to SC2) was more important, than having them for archons. Archons werent bad, there were just better options.
In HotS, if mech becomes popular (thx to warhounds and new hellions), you wont be seeing archons either.
That's fine i'll just transition into carriers. Wait no I won't.
On November 07 2011 02:43 CellTech wrote: Please learn to read, did I say PvT or PvZ. Archons were worse in PvT because they effectively had 10 hp because the EMP was complete shield depletion. Never did I mention PvZ or PvP.
Not to mention they'd have to travel through a minefield/mass siege tank line. Clearly you nubs above have never even seen a single Broodwar game / are probably 12 years old.
Archons werent used in PvT, because there were better tanking and anti mine units (zealots), and because of the size of mech units, splash wasnt too helpful. Besides, having HTs for storm (which had insane radius compared to SC2) was more important, than having them for archons. Archons werent bad, there were just better options.
In HotS, if mech becomes popular (thx to warhounds and new hellions), you wont be seeing archons either.
That's fine i'll just transition into carriers. Wait no I won't.
You'll prob make a lot of chargelots, replicants, immortals and phoenixes.
On November 07 2011 02:43 CellTech wrote: Please learn to read, did I say PvT or PvZ. Archons were worse in PvT because they effectively had 10 hp because the EMP was complete shield depletion. Never did I mention PvZ or PvP.
Not to mention they'd have to travel through a minefield/mass siege tank line. Clearly you nubs above have never even seen a single Broodwar game / are probably 12 years old.
Archons werent used in PvT, because there were better tanking and anti mine units (zealots), and because of the size of mech units, splash wasnt too helpful. Besides, having HTs for storm (which had insane radius compared to SC2) was more important, than having them for archons. Archons werent bad, there were just better options.
In HotS, if mech becomes popular (thx to warhounds and new hellions), you wont be seeing archons either.
That's fine i'll just transition into carriers. Wait no I won't.
You'll prob make a lot of chargelots, replicants, immortals and phoenixes.
Chargelots will melt like kit kat bars being thrown into the sun. Immortals are meh.. Phoenix's will get wrecked by warhounds, and replicants arent really good for anything because theyll be outnumbered.
Simple theorycrafting tells you, you need to switch to air vs a highly immobile mech army.
On November 07 2011 02:43 CellTech wrote: Please learn to read, did I say PvT or PvZ. Archons were worse in PvT because they effectively had 10 hp because the EMP was complete shield depletion. Never did I mention PvZ or PvP.
Not to mention they'd have to travel through a minefield/mass siege tank line. Clearly you nubs above have never even seen a single Broodwar game / are probably 12 years old.
Archons werent used in PvT, because there were better tanking and anti mine units (zealots), and because of the size of mech units, splash wasnt too helpful. Besides, having HTs for storm (which had insane radius compared to SC2) was more important, than having them for archons. Archons werent bad, there were just better options.
In HotS, if mech becomes popular (thx to warhounds and new hellions), you wont be seeing archons either.
That's fine i'll just transition into carriers. Wait no I won't.
You'll prob make a lot of chargelots, replicants, immortals and phoenixes.
Chargelots will melt like kit kat bars being thrown into the sun. Immortals are meh.. Phoenix's will get wrecked by warhounds, and replicants arent really good for anything because theyll be outnumbered.
Simple theorycrafting tells you, you need to switch to air vs a highly immobile mech army.
Chargelots will only be there for absorbing tank shots, and for harrasing. Immortals are awesome vs full mech. Its the bio mech (marines), that fuck immortals up. Repicants will be good for copying tanks, and for controlling space, so that terran cant just move to your front door and siege. And phoenix will be good for busting siegelines. You basically send them in simultaneously with the chargelots, lift the tanks, siege your replicants in range and send immortals in. Your replicants target hellions, your immortals own warhounds while waiting for the phoenix to get wiped out/for tanks to come down.
On November 07 2011 02:43 CellTech wrote: Please learn to read, did I say PvT or PvZ. Archons were worse in PvT because they effectively had 10 hp because the EMP was complete shield depletion. Never did I mention PvZ or PvP.
Not to mention they'd have to travel through a minefield/mass siege tank line. Clearly you nubs above have never even seen a single Broodwar game / are probably 12 years old.
Archons werent used in PvT, because there were better tanking and anti mine units (zealots), and because of the size of mech units, splash wasnt too helpful. Besides, having HTs for storm (which had insane radius compared to SC2) was more important, than having them for archons. Archons werent bad, there were just better options.
In HotS, if mech becomes popular (thx to warhounds and new hellions), you wont be seeing archons either.
That's fine i'll just transition into carriers. Wait no I won't.
You'll prob make a lot of chargelots, replicants, immortals and phoenixes.
Chargelots will melt like kit kat bars being thrown into the sun. Immortals are meh.. Phoenix's will get wrecked by warhounds, and replicants arent really good for anything because theyll be outnumbered.
Simple theorycrafting tells you, you need to switch to air vs a highly immobile mech army.
I can do some simpler theorycrafting -robo tech will still be in the game and it does just fine against mech given that colossus never have to siege giving you a huge advantage from the get go, not to mention the now 6 range immortals being so fucking sick against tanks. And chargelots make pretty good meat shields tbh.
Also that's not simple theorycrafting you're doing, it's copy pasting what you have seen in BW and assuming it will work the same way in SC2.
And this
Clearly you nubs above have never even seen a single Broodwar game / are probably 12 years old.
displays much more immaturity than the people you were insulting did...
On November 07 2011 02:43 CellTech wrote: Please learn to read, did I say PvT or PvZ. Archons were worse in PvT because they effectively had 10 hp because the EMP was complete shield depletion. Never did I mention PvZ or PvP.
Not to mention they'd have to travel through a minefield/mass siege tank line. Clearly you nubs above have never even seen a single Broodwar game / are probably 12 years old.
Archons werent used in PvT, because there were better tanking and anti mine units (zealots), and because of the size of mech units, splash wasnt too helpful. Besides, having HTs for storm (which had insane radius compared to SC2) was more important, than having them for archons. Archons werent bad, there were just better options.
In HotS, if mech becomes popular (thx to warhounds and new hellions), you wont be seeing archons either.
Sure you will. They're one of the only non-mech toss units, so they'll rape warhounds. Tanks and hellions are crap against them too.
On November 07 2011 02:43 CellTech wrote: Please learn to read, did I say PvT or PvZ. Archons were worse in PvT because they effectively had 10 hp because the EMP was complete shield depletion. Never did I mention PvZ or PvP.
Not to mention they'd have to travel through a minefield/mass siege tank line. Clearly you nubs above have never even seen a single Broodwar game / are probably 12 years old.
Archons werent used in PvT, because there were better tanking and anti mine units (zealots), and because of the size of mech units, splash wasnt too helpful. Besides, having HTs for storm (which had insane radius compared to SC2) was more important, than having them for archons. Archons werent bad, there were just better options.
In HotS, if mech becomes popular (thx to warhounds and new hellions), you wont be seeing archons either.
Sure you will. They're one of the only non-mech toss units, so they'll rape warhounds. Tanks and hellions are crap against them too.
And archons are crap against all those units, thanks to low DPS against non organic units. Why would any protoss throw away precious gas on archons, when he can make immortals against mech?
I think bringing KA back will actually balance the matchup from where it is now. Its kinda ironic how its nerf led to a few other nerfs and Terran buffs that eventually put Protoss in a hole. Now we're slowly heading in the other direction :s
On November 06 2011 03:34 iamke55 wrote: Excellent post. It boggles my mind that there are people who consider it imbalanced for PvT to have a ~50% winrate with KA, but balanced when PvT has a ~40% winrate without KA.
Depending on what you exactly meant in your post, my post below may agree/disagree with that.
I believe the balance of an individual unit does not necessarily correlate with the win-rate percent of a match. The W-L % of the match at any given point in time depends on the map pool, evolution of strategies and counter strategies combined with maturation of the potential of a unit. Until the game is mature enough and devoid of balance changes for a while, it is hard to make an argument whether a unit/ability in balanced or not.
The best example of this, in context of SC2, being the hellion. BFH have been pretty much untouched in the game since its inception. However, during the entirety of the 1st year of the game, the blue flame upgrade was rarely used and BFH strategies were non-existent. It was only in mid-2011 when Slayers hellion strategies were developed when we came to know how strong that ability was.
If you go back to late 2010 or early 2011, I do not think you would find anyone arguing the BFH were imbalanced. However, in view of current information, it can argued that BFH strategies were equally or even more 'imba' due to the fact that medivcas moved faster, Terran timings could come earlier due no bunker before rax requirements and so on.
The key point I am trying to make that even though there might have been a time period when ZvT was 50-50 split pre-BFH era, BFH were still 'imbalanced' (in quotes as imo we still just don't have enough knowledge to claim confidently) independent of the win-rate. Extending this logic to KA, it is not possible to prove that KA is imbalanced at PvT 50% or even at 40%. Until the game becomes mature enough that a lot of the unit potentials/strategies are realized, determining the balance of an individual unit/ability in terms of a matchup win-loss % is not possible as there are too many variables that come into play.
Note that by similar logic, removing KA was an equally bad idea since a local event of PvT matchup increase did not necessarily mean that KA was imbalanced at that point of time. Though I applaud Blizzard for being active with the amount of balance changes going on, I do think that they are making too many drastic changes too quick and not letting strategies evolve sufficiently. If Blizzard had strong reason/evidence to believe that KA was imba, it should have been nerfed to a point where you needed 4-5 sec after warp-in to storm and then studied how much of a difference this made instead of outright removing it.
The idea of KA was flawed in actual practice though. For both Terran and Zerg, starting the production of the iconic caster is an investment and risk, basically predicting you aren't going to be attacked in the next ~45s. At the very least, you won't need the abilities of the caster for the next ~45s. For Protoss, this removed all forward thinking of the HT out of the equation. If you needed storms, you just warped them in ~5s. There is no significant waiting period or forward thinking, just reaction. Especially with the archon buff, this would become an incredibly hard scenario to deal with for both Terran and Zerg.
To address other arguments about gateways being on cooldown, we're beginning to see a metagame shift where gateways are being massed beyond the income potential of Protoss. This allows them to warp in units on demand when having to address harassment forces away from their main force. Thus, the cooldown for HTs becomes moot and the only barrier is gas income. On 2-3 bases, that gives harassment opportunity for 18s at most (only 7-11s for a medivac drop) if you're relying ONLY on HTs. With zealots as a buffer, it's very easy to warp in a HT in time.
Races are different.
Terran has the best defense in the game, zerg has the best production (remax in under a minute), so why is it wrong for protoss to have something equally potent?
And no, warpgates are not, since they give you no defenders advantage, since they are balanced around timing attacks.
Protoss can warp in small defense forces ANYWHERE they have pylon power and the can remax in less than 5s. FFs and high AoE make attacking head on suicidal after a certain point in the game. But if you want to live in a world where the only advantage to gateway tech is 4 and 6 gate timing attacks, be my guest. It at least wouldn't be a surprise why you would want a massive buff to Protoss.
It was already established, that warpgates must be balanced around attacking, therefore, they give yo no defender advantage. And you also cant remax in 5 sec, thats BS. FFs and AoE are not a plus, they are a necessity to survive.
Warpgates on cooldown -> attack at 200/200 -> lose gateway units in attack -> warp in fresh set of wargate units in 5s
When was it "established" that warpgates must be balanced around timing attacks? And since when do balances around timing attacks give you no defenders advantage? Defenders advantage takes into account positioning, reinforcement, and static defense. How warp gates would ignore even one of those aspects makes no sense.
1) That wont let you remax in 5 sec.
2) It was discussed to death in many threads, and even terran and zerg players agreed that due to being balanced around attacking, warpgates dont give porotoss any defenders advantage. Its quite simple, if WGs warp to any location with equal speed/efficiency, and that speed/cooldown is balanced so that protoss dont have an advantage over Z or T while attacking (means toss production has to be somewhat slower), then wehn your defending as a protoss, you have no defenders advantage. Whether you are fighting and warping in the middle of the map, or at your natural, its the same. And protoss also dont have bunkers or creep, therefore no "home-field advantage".
About #2, the no homefield advantage for Protoss seems real to me. Warp in late game obviously is good for getting around, but for a major assault you really have to have colossus and not allow the enemy to retain their corruptor/viking count or your colossi count will not matter.
EPT
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