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Old games with khaydarin amulet lasted 40+ minutes and were very close going to one player or the other.
See here:
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors2/vod/62509
New games without KA but same players:
http://www.gomtv.net/2011wcg/vod/66478
Look at game 9. It worries me.
Protoss up 1 base most of game? A gold base ahead for 4 minutes... from 15 minutes till 19 minutes. Harassing with warp prisms. Now SC makes more ghosts, uses snipe or EMP depending on what is better at that point in time. Makes a viking to finally shut down the harass at his main.
Every big engagement goes in favor of Terran I think.
And I don't think you can say SC is better than San, because San beat him earlier in the series when SC tried to do a 1 base all in. SC did beat Oz with a delayed 1/1/1 one base build in game 5. San's PvP seems lacking, but PvT he seems solid... but can't hold on going HT + DT + gateway + warp prism.
Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT?
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Canada13408 Posts
Im not sure if KA made for a more balanced game but it presents us with a BW situation. Where one thing is really strong for one race the other race has a similarly strong spell/thing which provided for very very interesting back and forth situations.
I used to liken KA to a planetary fortress. If you are going to attack my base you damn well better know it and be prepared for an attack - not just sending small numbers of units.
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Well my game knowledge/sense is not that strong in BW but.
At first I felt KA removal was good, considering how you can warp in units in SC2 unlike in SC1; By the time the gateway cooldown is finished, HT would have gained a good bit of energy, around or more than the 62 that HT could start with in BW if you upgraded them.
However now I just realized that Science Vessels needed 100 energy to EMP (the radius was really big tho right? as in, much better than 1 ghost EMP now, and i think it took all shield/energy away) and even if they're upgraded, they start with 62 energy.
So basically in SC2 Ghosts can start with enough energy to EMP right off the bat. So yeah either the EMP radius cooldown should help, assuming that the Science Vessel fulfilled a similar role (idk much about BW sorry), or maybe something in between removing KA and having it would have been better (nerf instead of remove)
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All I can say that EMPs were a whole lot less devastating because you could warp in HTs after all the EMPs were off, so even though your army's shields were all gone, you could still safely land storms which would even out the battle a bit.
It didn't make a huge difference in PvZ or PvP. I liked the upgrade personally, I think they should have just made it 15+ energy instead of 25+ or even not touched it at all.
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No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
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On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote:
No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
is that really why it was removed? I thought it was because the terran could wipe out the army of protoss, but the toss could just constantly warp in templar with storms and take out the army before it did any more damage.
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HT warp in harass would be really really strong
still worse than bf hellions though
i never understood why they removed it, same for the VR speed
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On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote:
No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
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Yes I think KA was rather OP because warp in storms are just too damaging and versatile. It only takes about 20-30s for a HT to get the energy it needs from warpin till Storm which adds a slight amount of planning the P has to do.
Trying to base this argument off one game is pretty silly imo, even with the old game (which is how many months old? plus hasn't there been a ton of other balance changes?)
Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT?
Really? You think the most recent patch qualifies as "wildly game changing patches"? This has to be one of the least game changing Patch for SC2 yet, Emp radius nerf is the biggest change and P's will now have an extra handfull of resources when powering upgrades (a piddly amount, but a nice bonus nonetheless). Overall I've found the patches pretty tame with the exception of a few big tweaks (such as WG nerf, ramp vision, Neral Nerf).
I think your argument is just too flimsy, and I think most people will agree that KA was OP.
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On November 05 2011 00:05 bebe01 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote:
No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
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HT warp in harass was better with KA just due to less risk of the warp prism being shot down filled with HT. As far as damage, I'd put it somewhere near but below baneling drops on minerals. Fungals vs minerals seems stronger than psi storm as well, and infestors can get there burrowed, so I'd rate that as equal to HT with KA aggression. Bio drops on minerals seem really good still, at least equal to HT + KA if not better since they can take out buildings if the opportunity presents itself.
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On November 05 2011 00:06 Nolot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 00:05 bebe01 wrote:On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote:
No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons. You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs...
You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
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On November 05 2011 00:11 sperY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 00:06 Nolot wrote:On November 05 2011 00:05 bebe01 wrote:On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote:
No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons. You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA? Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
What? So why can't you just put your warp prism in to warp mode, warp 2 ht, load em up and drop in your opponent's mineral line. I'm confused.
Edit: ok I understand you now.
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On November 05 2011 00:11 sperY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 00:06 Nolot wrote:On November 05 2011 00:05 bebe01 wrote:On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote:
No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons. You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA? Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
Edit - I'm an idiot
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On November 05 2011 00:11 sperY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 00:06 Nolot wrote:On November 05 2011 00:05 bebe01 wrote:On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote:
No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons. You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA? Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
If the Terran pulls probes when you start to warp-in you can just cancel it by transforming the prism. In other words, doing damage and just risking a 200 mineral warp prism. If you fly around with HT's in a Warp Prism, there is a good chance it will die with your really expensive HT's inside it. Besides, there are some expansions (usually late-game expansions) where you could warp-in on the high ground behind the base.
What they probably could do to make HT's better again is shorter storm research time and making it a bit cheaper. This would lessen the risk, they have already reduced the reward of going this path. Going back to warp-in HT's with storm is not a good option I think.
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On November 05 2011 00:16 KonohaFlash wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 00:11 sperY wrote:On November 05 2011 00:06 Nolot wrote:On November 05 2011 00:05 bebe01 wrote:On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote:
No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons. You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA? Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin. What? So why can't you just put your warp prism in to warp mode, warp 2 ht, load em up and drop in your opponent's mineral line. I'm confused. Edit: ok I understand you now.
You do, but you wait a bit for them to get enough energy. You just have to wait extra 10 sec ( if you flight is 10 sec).
On November 05 2011 00:17 Jtom wrote:
What about an infestor drop? It does the same only there is no escape.
Dont understand what do you mean? The discussion is about KA and storm drops.
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On November 05 2011 00:19 blackbrrd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 00:11 sperY wrote:On November 05 2011 00:06 Nolot wrote:On November 05 2011 00:05 bebe01 wrote:On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote:
No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons. You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA? Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin. If the Terran pulls probes when you start to warp-in you can just cancel it by transforming the prism. In other words, doing damage and just risking a 200 mineral warp prism. If you fly around with HT's in a Warp Prism, there is a good chance it will die with your really expensive HT's inside it. Besides, there are some expansions (usually late-game expansions) where you could warp-in on the high ground behind the base.
Imo that late into the game, few seconds off mining time isnt big of a deal.
With the risk part i do agree but if you dont risk you wont kill any scvs and that is your goal.
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On November 05 2011 00:17 Jtom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 00:11 sperY wrote:On November 05 2011 00:06 Nolot wrote:On November 05 2011 00:05 bebe01 wrote:On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote:
No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons. You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA? Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin. What about an infestor drop? It does the same only there is no escape.
Shush! You must know by now that one can only complain and want to nerf T and P harrassment options (bf hellions and templar). Insta killing entire mineral lines baneling drops and infestor oh btw you cant get away even if you did spot me pop up (oh yeah cause i can get to your worker line burrowed btw) must not be mentioned! :D
Personally i hated KA, nerfing emp and looking to buff other elements of toss (gateway) units is the better way to go imo.
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The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
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On November 05 2011 00:05 Tictock wrote:Yes I think KA was rather OP because warp in storms are just too damaging and versatile. It only takes about 20-30s for a HT to get the energy it needs from warpin till Storm which adds a slight amount of planning the P has to do. Trying to base this argument off one game is pretty silly imo, even with the old game (which is how many months old? plus hasn't there been a ton of other balance changes?) Show nested quote +Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT? Really? You think the most recent patch qualifies as "wildly game changing patches"? This has to be one of the least game changing Patch for SC2 yet, Emp radius nerf is the biggest change and P's will now have an extra handfull of resources when powering upgrades (a piddly amount, but a nice bonus nonetheless). Overall I've found the patches pretty tame with the exception of a few big tweaks (such as WG nerf, ramp vision, Neral Nerf). I think your argument is just too flimsy, and I think most people will agree that KA was OP.
Actually it takes 44.44 game seconds for a currently warped in HT to get 75 energy. Energy regen rate is 0.5625 via Liquipedia.
There are several games in the old series that make KA look fine. Like games where SC wins battles even without using ghosts and comes from behind and doesn't use any harassment. Games were balance changes since then don't make a difference other than archons getting big buffs. But more usage of ghosts counters archons, so I think it's a fair comparison.
About the wild balance changes, I was referring to everything done to PvT since KA removal. Archon buffs, immortal buffs, medivac speed decrease ... was that after KA removal... etc. And Browder himself said the upgrade changes for the PTR was huge in the TL interview.
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EPT
