EPT[D] KA in PvT then and now- NSHoSeo_san vs MVP_sC - Page 2
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
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50bani
Romania480 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
Also, i liked that with KA, if protoss lost an engagement and was down a notable number of supply, they could fall back and use warp in storms to stay alive... as it stands, terran can fall back to bunkers/pf's, and if the protoss player doesnt have a 50+ supply lead OR a large number of colossi, he cant really engage i think, whereas protoss is far more vunerable to just dieing. All IMO | ||
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PR4Y
United States260 Posts
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taintmachine
United States431 Posts
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RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote: The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight). Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced. I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue. Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in? | ||
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taintmachine
United States431 Posts
On November 05 2011 00:37 RemrafGrez wrote: I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue. Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in? the nature of warp-in made KA very powerful. instantly reinforcing a holofield position with a storm or two was amazing. HTs building out of a gateway weren't the concern. | ||
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50bani
Romania480 Posts
On November 05 2011 00:37 RemrafGrez wrote: I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue. Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in? Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
Lets forget that Ghosts were not used that much before, lets forget that equally skilled players can take games off each other any other day, lets forget that unti control has improved dramatically, hell lets not even take into account that maybe SC played better on that specific game? We can argue all we want about the past game changes(and seriously?¨ wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced.¨) same as we can argue why 150 mins spawning pool was balanced in SC, but its useless to argue only one change things have changed a lot since then(and I am not talking about Patches solely, players have gotten waaay better). In my opinion the KA change was perfectly fine, I don´t think an outright removal was a solution(and hopefully Blizzard will revise that on HotS) but Storm with amulet was a free get out of jail card for P most of the time. I do think it should have been tweaked instead of removing, but seriously is there a point to this? You don´t provide much analysis aside from ¨Oh this game with KA looked pretty even¨ and ¨this game without KA was not even, coincidence?¨ | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On November 05 2011 00:41 50bani wrote: Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
Warp a templar, wait for energy to storm = produce a ghost/ infestor with energy upgrade It's the SAME TIME. | ||
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n0ise
3452 Posts
You just -CANNOT- make KA work together with WG tech. It's ridiculous. Not even worth discussing. The only HT modifications that I can see happening are - +MS change, +Range on Feedback/Storm or both. And I assume one of them will actually get implemented. | ||
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Roxy
Canada753 Posts
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm. The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still. I would argue that in the time it takes to warp in an HT and storm the mineral line, the probes could all be pulled safely away. In 5 seconds.. +2 seconds for the storm, to kill most of the workers on a mineral line I bet you that 8 stimmed marines (which represent less of an investment) could wipe out an entire mineral line in 7 seconds as well The thing is that 8 marines could kill more than just a couple of probes (that could have easily been pulled away) | ||
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Eppa!
Sweden4641 Posts
KA had no offensive use that could not be solved with micro. | ||
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Roxy
Canada753 Posts
On November 05 2011 00:52 n0ise wrote: KA is fine on it's own. You just -CANNOT- make KA work together with WG tech. It's ridiculous. Not even worth discussing. The only HT modifications that I can see happening are - +MS change, +Range on Feedback/Storm or both. And I assume one of them will actually get implemented. Then I would argue that it is ridiculous that medivacs can heal. In BW (like so many people like to bring up), if you wanted to heal your stimmed marines, you would need to bring some medivacs with them. 6 marines and 2 medics in a dropship deal much less than 8 marines in a medivac | ||
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RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
On November 05 2011 00:30 SupLilSon wrote: Wait, am I missing something from the OP? I really don't understand how those 2 games show anything about KA at all. First game is San vs Sc and second game is Oz vs MKP. So you are trying to analyze balance based off of 2 games with completely different players? You may have a point but the extreme lack of effort to provide any basis seriously hinders this argument. IIRC, even a large portion of Protoss players back then were convinced that KA was pretty damn broken. All of the games from the old series involved KA just about. Game 9 of the new series is of the same players with heavy HT play but no KA. That's 6 games, plus a non KA game to show San and SC's skill is still about equal. San is known for liking HT play, but the fact that he gets curbstomped when he's a whole gold base ahead (3 bases to 2) for 4 game minutes is mindblowing. I think that one game is a perfect example of why KA makes more sense than the route Blizz is trying to take. | ||
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Roxy
Canada753 Posts
Either move EMP to raven and we dont get KA back OR Leave EMP on ghosts (at 1.5 radius) and we get KA back | ||
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city42
1656 Posts
On November 05 2011 00:50 Noocta wrote: Stop with KA seriously. Warp a templar, wait for energy to storm = produce a ghost/ infestor with energy upgrade It's the SAME TIME. That's a terrible comparison because infestors and ghosts are much better units than templars overall. | ||
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Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
On November 05 2011 01:01 Roxy wrote: IMO: Either move EMP to raven and we dont get KA back OR Leave EMP on ghosts (at 1.5 radius) and we get KA back OR Give KA back but either make Templars un-warpable or take a long time to warp. OR Give Ghosts less energy/make EMP cost more The pre-KA-change situation was borderline imba, and Blizzard's fix may have been somewhat harsh on Protoss, but the changes you suggested might be a bit rough for us Terrans (and Dustin Browder, lol) to accept. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On November 04 2011 23:51 RemrafGrez wrote: Old games with khaydarin amulet lasted 40+ minutes and were very close going to one player or the other. See here: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors2/vod/62509 New games without KA but same players: http://www.gomtv.net/2011wcg/vod/66478 Look at game 9. It worries me. Protoss up 1 base most of game? A gold base ahead for 4 minutes... from 15 minutes till 19 minutes. Harassing with warp prisms. Now SC makes more ghosts, uses snipe or EMP depending on what is better at that point in time. Makes a viking to finally shut down the harass at his main. Every big engagement goes in favor of Terran I think. And I don't think you can say SC is better than San, because San beat him earlier in the series when SC tried to do a 1 base all in. SC did beat Oz with a delayed 1/1/1 one base build in game 5. San's PvP seems lacking, but PvT he seems solid... but can't hold on going HT + DT + gateway + warp prism. Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT? Sc is way better than San and has been way better than San for a long time... | ||
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