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On November 06 2011 11:10 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 11:06 HystericaLaughter wrote:
What I've seen a lot in this thread is 'Terran is OP versus Protoss, but the win rate was as close as its ever been to 50/50 when KA was in the game'. That leads me to believe KA is also OP, only Protoss don't get to have their OP thing against Terran.
That kind of balance makes me grimace to be honest. I would much rather Terran was nerfed so that they were no longer OP against Protoss, rather than have two overpowered things battling it out.
I am under the assumption BW had situations such as this (I didn't play it). Personally I don't like this kind of balancing, but it might just be me. No, Vultures were OP as fuck in the right hands. You're downright crazy if you think otherwise. Tanks/Turrets were really damn close to it too. However, this was counteracted by the fact that Protoss had some things borderline OP like Reaver drops, Carriers, Arbiters, and good Storms (which were HARD to dodge and move out of). What made BW great was that nearly every single damn unit in the game had something that most players would consider today "overpowered." You know how much crying there would be right now if the Vulture or Reaver were still in the game? LOL.
I think you mean yes? OP thing against OP thing? Those were the situations that I was talking about. Maybe the game would be boring without features like that, but I don't like them
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I agree, i think not removing it but lowering the energy would be a nice compromise and not a game breaker.
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I liked the idea of comparing KA to planetary in pvt. I do agree it'd be too easy to just warp in and storm mineral lines though too, but only for pvp and pvz because scvs have more hp and mules make up the difference very easily and terran should be catching up on workers by the later game when storm drops are potential threats. Mules are meant to balance out against injects and chrono, but once I have all my probes, in theory, spending chrono on upgrades and such balances out still macro wise. Only problem imo is that ghosts wreck protoss armies even if i'm ahead on upgrades, so if I have insta or much quicker storms from KA, then I can try to even this indifference out. Emp nerf makes sense, but not in all aspects to me 
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The Khaydarin Amulet phase was the most beautiful period of PvT in the history of StarCraft 2, as far as I'm concerned. The problem was that in the late game, Khaydarin Amulet made Protoss extremely difficult to harass while not taking much away from the Colossus ball. One of either the Colossi or Khaydarin Amulet had to go, and unfortunately Blizzard chose Khaydarin Amulet. And the greatest style of Protoss play in StarCraft 2 died.
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On November 06 2011 11:01 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 10:59 Spicy_Curry wrote:
This thread should really be closed, people are either just attacking each other or discussing how bio is better than gateway units. This is not producing good discussion anymore. More like the only thing is Terran players trying to draw the argument away from the core facts; KA at most made the match-up even. Those arguing that the game was balanced after the removal forget that 5 out of the 6 months after KA was removed have shown that Terran has a pretty significant advantage over Protoss in tournament play. It only gets worse when you look at Korean level statistics over those 6 months, with Terran having obscene amounts of success (upwards towards 60% in certain months) against Protoss. It's completely asinine to think that KA was somehow overpowered, yet you have a shitload of Terran players saying that Bio's insane DPS is ok, or that EMPs are fine against Protoss, etc. despite the fact that they have been railing Protoss in the ass for nearly 6 months on end in tournament play, particularly in Korea. This argument only gets more asinine when you see that Fungal Growth and EMP are far more cost efficient energy wise, and are on units that have far more utility than the HT does.
Why are you so upset about TvP winrates? ZvP is WAY more one-sided. Your arguments show only the most superficial analysis (lots of Terrans in Code S, but no Tosses? TERRAN IMBA!!)
I also don't think "strawman" means what you think it does. No one is misrepresenting your position.
Edit: In fact, of all the matchups, according to the winrates TvP is the most balanced. I don't ever go by winrates to decide balance, but for those who do...
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On November 05 2011 16:38 storywriter wrote:
Even though I'm not entirely convinced that KA should come back in its original form, I'm baffled at the argument most terrans are making: that a terran should be able to punish a protoss heavily after winning an engagement.
I never ever attack into a terran base after winning a battle. why? because I know that he's going to have an army waiting there if not also a planetary. In fact, in most games I win, the terran ggs before I've even set foot inside their base after I've drained their resources. Maybe terran bio shouldn't be able to run into a protoss base with orange hp and wreak havoc. I mean storm can only do so much. If the terran does indeed crush the protoss and has a ton of green marauders left, KA isn't going to save the protoss. But if the bio units are indeed in the orange and about to die from a few storms (terran can still dodge the storms too), that means that the protoss wasn't completely hopeless in the preceding battle and maybe deserves to be able to defend his bases (and terran always has the option to fall back and save his units).
I agree. Some people are arguing Terrans should win after one good engagement, but we all know that is not true when a Protoss wins an engagement against Terran. He can't just go attack in most games, it turns into a longer game. This is why we see so many MULE comeback stories as well. How about some KA comeback stories again? Really, put it back in the game in some nerfed form and Protoss would do so much better in tournaments.
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On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote:
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal. Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems. And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor.
Also sums up the state of affairs pretty well. Protoss can't lose a fair sized engagement because they can't build anything that can stand up to a small medium bio army with healing. Not unless 2 colossus pop at the perfect time or if the fight was on the other side of the map from their bases to give them time.
KA gave flexibility to the non flexible race. If it was too good, why not a nerfed version of it? Or does protoss just have to be ahead on bases and never lose an engagement and have near perfect spotting/drop defense to be even PvT in the late game?
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On November 06 2011 21:15 RemrafGrez wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 16:38 storywriter wrote:
Even though I'm not entirely convinced that KA should come back in its original form, I'm baffled at the argument most terrans are making: that a terran should be able to punish a protoss heavily after winning an engagement.
I never ever attack into a terran base after winning a battle. why? because I know that he's going to have an army waiting there if not also a planetary. In fact, in most games I win, the terran ggs before I've even set foot inside their base after I've drained their resources. Maybe terran bio shouldn't be able to run into a protoss base with orange hp and wreak havoc. I mean storm can only do so much. If the terran does indeed crush the protoss and has a ton of green marauders left, KA isn't going to save the protoss. But if the bio units are indeed in the orange and about to die from a few storms (terran can still dodge the storms too), that means that the protoss wasn't completely hopeless in the preceding battle and maybe deserves to be able to defend his bases (and terran always has the option to fall back and save his units). I agree. Some people are arguing Terrans should win after one good engagement, but we all know that is not true when a Protoss wins an engagement against Terran. He can't just go attack in most games, it turns into a longer game. This is why we see so many MULE comeback stories as well. How about some KA comeback stories again? Really, put it back in the game in some nerfed form and Protoss would do so much better in tournaments.
How is that not true when protoss wins an engagement? Especially super lategame, you kill the protoss army and then he warp ins half his army again and you have to reinforce and fight another full army.
Warpgate mechanic just completely shits on the Barrack/Factory/Starport of Terran, especially lategame.
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On November 06 2011 21:23 sereniity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 21:15 RemrafGrez wrote:On November 05 2011 16:38 storywriter wrote:
Even though I'm not entirely convinced that KA should come back in its original form, I'm baffled at the argument most terrans are making: that a terran should be able to punish a protoss heavily after winning an engagement.
I never ever attack into a terran base after winning a battle. why? because I know that he's going to have an army waiting there if not also a planetary. In fact, in most games I win, the terran ggs before I've even set foot inside their base after I've drained their resources. Maybe terran bio shouldn't be able to run into a protoss base with orange hp and wreak havoc. I mean storm can only do so much. If the terran does indeed crush the protoss and has a ton of green marauders left, KA isn't going to save the protoss. But if the bio units are indeed in the orange and about to die from a few storms (terran can still dodge the storms too), that means that the protoss wasn't completely hopeless in the preceding battle and maybe deserves to be able to defend his bases (and terran always has the option to fall back and save his units). I agree. Some people are arguing Terrans should win after one good engagement, but we all know that is not true when a Protoss wins an engagement against Terran. He can't just go attack in most games, it turns into a longer game. This is why we see so many MULE comeback stories as well. How about some KA comeback stories again? Really, put it back in the game in some nerfed form and Protoss would do so much better in tournaments. How is that not true when protoss wins an engagement? Especially super lategame, you kill the protoss army and then he warp ins half his army again and you have to reinforce and fight another full army. Warpgate mechanic just completely shits on the Barrack/Factory/Starport of Terran, especially lategame.
It usually depends on keeping the durable units. Gateway units are crap against barrack units so keeping the Collossus is key for the following engagement.
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On November 05 2011 19:47 Tristran wrote:
Believe me I love High Templar, infact they are my favourite unit. I love watching storms land perfectly on huge clumps of bio, especially when that whole ball just explodes from it. Protoss is also my played race so, heres my opinion.
While bringing back KA would certainly help Protoss, it would also overpower them hugely. Yes I am frustrated and annoyed with Terran lately because of how easily they roll over Protoss and how 1 easy to use EMP can shut down a vast amount of units with incredibly expensive tech. I am just biding my time and hoping Blizzard get the balance correct. If they reintroduced KA now, it would firstly make it far easier to defend expansions vs terran. Someone mentioned earlier that KA is likened to a planetary fortress, ie: you better know what your doing if your going to attack my base. However this "planetary fortress" is able to appear almost anywhere in the Protoss' base and land a giant amount of damage right on your army in seconds. Multiple times. KA is more like a... super storm that makes the protoss so hard to attack that you better bring your whole freaking army and be watching it perfectly, ignoring your macro, and also letting the Protoss know exactly where your army is so he can go happily wipe your whole base off the face of the map, or set up a sick ambush, while you try to keep fighting through seemingly endless waves of instant storms.
This is not to mention the offensive capabilities that KA has. Firstly it allows you to hold almost any position on the map where you have a pylon. The enemy darent go near it. It also means that warp prism harass would become stronger. It means the carry space of the Prism could be used on Zealots or DT's which are unloaded to go hacking away at whatever, while the templar are warped in to immidiately storm. Could you imagine a sentry drop, blocking the workers, then warping in HT's to storm them immidiately? I think you'd probably rage quit. You could also phase out whole areas of the enemies own base with the threat of these storms.
I long for a balanced game and to see more Protoss in tournaments again.. but bringing back KA is definitely not the way to go. It would completley wreck the balance in the opposite direction, I am sick of the amount of Terrans at the moment but I dont want to see them all gone. I'd rather not have 20 Protoss in the GSL thanks... (nightmares of PvP...)
I want to comment on the planetary fortress vs warp in storm comparison. They are kind of similar, but the warp in storm has exactly one chance to hit. Just one. You dodge it once, and it's essentially gone forever because it would take 132 seconds for the mana to regen. So he warps in two... that's two storms you have to dodge, then maybe deal with an archon many seconds later. If he warps in 5+ HTs? That's still able to be hit by a couple of EMPs... don't forget only one EMP is needed for a newly warped in KA HT to bring it to zero energy. And if he warps in a whole army? Terran is faster at moving out from that position and hitting something else.
How many times can a planetary fire before it goes down? Infinite if you don't have enough AOE to kill the workers I think.
And if Terran bring ghosts with them, couldn't they expect to shut down some of the warped in HT even with KA? Up ramps would be harder, but it's easier for Terran to scan and EMP up a ramp than any other ground based army to go up a ramp. Scan avoids cannons and whatever, and you just have to get your high range EMP off if the HTs are in range to be hit. If they are out of range, you see it with your scan and you can play accordingly... you can pick off cannons or whatever then send a few marauders or cloaked ghosts in a medivac, low energy to avoid feedback, to snipe HTs.
KA makes harassing and finishing a Protoss harder, but with good control I see options to get in. Can it be done with simple stim kiting like against the current Protoss defense after they are caught out of position or on the rebound from a bad engagement? No. Is that such a terrible problem or does it actually make the game more entertaining?
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Revert archon buffs, revert emp nerfs, bring back KA.
Compare the archon and high templar in sc2 to broodwar, in BW the templar was the be all ebd all unit, and the archon was useless. In sc2 this is reversed.
(PvT of course)
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On November 07 2011 00:21 CellTech wrote:
Revert archon buffs, revert emp nerfs, bring back KA.
Compare the archon and high templar in sc2 to broodwar, in BW the templar was the be all ebd all unit, and the archon was useless. In sc2 this is reversed.
(PvT of course)
Archons were not useless in BW .......
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On November 07 2011 00:21 CellTech wrote:
Revert archon buffs, revert emp nerfs, bring back KA.
Compare the archon and high templar in sc2 to broodwar, in BW the templar was the be all ebd all unit, and the archon was useless. In sc2 this is reversed.
(PvT of course)
Nowadays anyone is talking about BW not knowing a thing...
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On November 04 2011 23:51 RemrafGrez wrote:
Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT?
Regardless of the problems in PvT, KA nerf was actually for PvZ. 100% of zerg harass units are hard hard countered by Templar. Instantly having infinite psi storms made mutalisks and zerglings not worth making, which then guaranteed a composition you could roll with a deathball.
It will never come back, because instant storms make protoss bases unassailable by zerg units, in a game where protoss bases are already pretty much unassailable in the late game.
Thats why protoss got other buffs now to make up for it. Hopefully the EMP nerf will be the right thing to get it balanced up.
For the record, the actual comparison between KA and PF's goes like this: The terran pays ahead of time for the PF. If you leave 1 templar at your expansions now, That's the same as a PF. KA would be like a terran leaving his command center un-upgraded, and switching to PF mode instantly the second you attack.
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On November 07 2011 00:21 CellTech wrote:
Revert archon buffs, revert emp nerfs, bring back KA.
Compare the archon and high templar in sc2 to broodwar, in BW the templar was the be all ebd all unit, and the archon was useless. In sc2 this is reversed.
(PvT of course)
Get informed, son. Archons were much, much better in BW, because there were few units, that were faster. Also, archons had a much higher attack rate and larger splash. A couple of archons could kill infinite mutas or lings in BW. Having a couple of archons in your army would make every zerg cry. Having a couple of archons in your army in SC2 would at best make a zerg go "¯\_(ツ)_/¯".
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3 of you idiots quoted "(PvT of course)" but clearly didn't get that far into my post.
Please learn to read, did I say PvT or PvZ. Archons were worse in PvT because they effectively had 10 hp because the EMP was complete shield depletion. Never did I mention PvZ or PvP.
Not to mention they'd have to travel through a minefield/mass siege tank line. Clearly you nubs above have never even seen a single Broodwar game / are probably 12 years old.
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On November 07 2011 02:43 CellTech wrote:
Please learn to read, did I say PvT or PvZ. Archons were worse in PvT because they effectively had 10 hp because the EMP was complete shield depletion. Never did I mention PvZ or PvP.
Not to mention they'd have to travel through a minefield/mass siege tank line. Clearly you nubs above have never even seen a single Broodwar game / are probably 12 years old.
Archons werent used in PvT, because there were better tanking and anti mine units (zealots), and because of the size of mech units, splash wasnt too helpful. Besides, having HTs for storm (which had insane radius compared to SC2) was more important, than having them for archons. Archons werent bad, there were just better options.
In HotS, if mech becomes popular (thx to warhounds and new hellions), you wont be seeing archons either.
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On November 07 2011 02:54 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 02:43 CellTech wrote:
Please learn to read, did I say PvT or PvZ. Archons were worse in PvT because they effectively had 10 hp because the EMP was complete shield depletion. Never did I mention PvZ or PvP.
Not to mention they'd have to travel through a minefield/mass siege tank line. Clearly you nubs above have never even seen a single Broodwar game / are probably 12 years old. Archons werent used in PvT, because there were better tanking and anti mine units (zealots), and because of the size of mech units, splash wasnt too helpful. Besides, having HTs for storm (which had insane radius compared to SC2) was more important, than having them for archons. Archons werent bad, there were just better options. In HotS, if mech becomes popular (thx to warhounds and new hellions), you wont be seeing archons either.
That's fine i'll just transition into carriers. Wait no I won't.
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On November 07 2011 03:00 CellTech wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 02:54 IVN wrote:On November 07 2011 02:43 CellTech wrote:
Please learn to read, did I say PvT or PvZ. Archons were worse in PvT because they effectively had 10 hp because the EMP was complete shield depletion. Never did I mention PvZ or PvP.
Not to mention they'd have to travel through a minefield/mass siege tank line. Clearly you nubs above have never even seen a single Broodwar game / are probably 12 years old. Archons werent used in PvT, because there were better tanking and anti mine units (zealots), and because of the size of mech units, splash wasnt too helpful. Besides, having HTs for storm (which had insane radius compared to SC2) was more important, than having them for archons. Archons werent bad, there were just better options. In HotS, if mech becomes popular (thx to warhounds and new hellions), you wont be seeing archons either. That's fine i'll just transition into carriers. Wait no I won't.
You'll prob make a lot of chargelots, replicants, immortals and phoenixes.
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On November 07 2011 03:02 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 03:00 CellTech wrote:On November 07 2011 02:54 IVN wrote:On November 07 2011 02:43 CellTech wrote:
Please learn to read, did I say PvT or PvZ. Archons were worse in PvT because they effectively had 10 hp because the EMP was complete shield depletion. Never did I mention PvZ or PvP.
Not to mention they'd have to travel through a minefield/mass siege tank line. Clearly you nubs above have never even seen a single Broodwar game / are probably 12 years old. Archons werent used in PvT, because there were better tanking and anti mine units (zealots), and because of the size of mech units, splash wasnt too helpful. Besides, having HTs for storm (which had insane radius compared to SC2) was more important, than having them for archons. Archons werent bad, there were just better options. In HotS, if mech becomes popular (thx to warhounds and new hellions), you wont be seeing archons either. That's fine i'll just transition into carriers. Wait no I won't. You'll prob make a lot of chargelots, replicants, immortals and phoenixes.
Chargelots will melt like kit kat bars being thrown into the sun.
Immortals are meh..
Phoenix's will get wrecked by warhounds, and replicants arent really good for anything because theyll be outnumbered.
Simple theorycrafting tells you, you need to switch to air vs a highly immobile mech army.
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EPT
