On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote: The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference
Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot.
Great point! We should have troops calldown.. NOW WE'RE TALKING!
And a lot of you are just looking at PvT, what about PvZ and PvP?
PvZ KA will help defend vs mutas It may be an alternative to colosus against hydras. KA not good vs roaches, brood lords, ultras.. onyl good vs clumped lings and vs hydras. drop play is risky vs zerg because they get easy map cotnrol
PvP this would be interesting. obviuosly mirror matches should be held to a different measure of balance.. but if this results in less colosus battles, id be all for it
You are confusing what is good. Storm is good against Mutas and an alternative to Colossi vs Hydras. KA does not make storm better or worse vs these things. What KA does it make it so it removes any strategical positioning with your HT and army. You don't have to use anything to defend until you need to defend which removes a big element of play. The opponent can no longer force your hand into a specific position so he can abuse a hole it creates somewhere else since with KA there are no holes.
That in a nutshell is why KA was removed. It doesn't add options to the game, it removes them.
KA doesnt make the deathball stronger. Any templars sitting in your deathabll will already have enough energy anyways.
Protoss units are not very mobile, and they are very weak when not all together. Protoss is also the race that is most dependent on gas. It is too weakening to them to have 2 HT and a couple zealots sitting in EVERY base.
Drops are already really devastating. If your gates are on cooldown, you have no choice but to move your whole (or at least half) army do defend the drop.
Try practicing more. It sounds like that's more your problem rather than a lack of KA. One templar at each base can shut down drops and the warpgate mechanic means that you don't even need units waiting before hand. Increase the speed of your play and terran drop play will be less of a hindrance.
Zerg can expand all over the map at will. Their units are so fast and they have such good map control that it makes it safe.
Terran can fly over an expansion and defend it with a PF that will be up in a minute. Unless we want to go engage with our whole army, the expansion goes uncontested.
If protoss wants to expand, you just send a handfull of lings or a medivac full of marines to it and its gone?
Protoss can not expand as freely as the other races becuase it cant defend its bases when they are spread so far apart.
On November 05 2011 01:18 MarcL wrote: I would say the KA was OP and u cant compare storm with EMP just for the one reason u can kill units with a storm but u can get off 1 billion emps on the protoss army and no unit will die ...
If you EMP their entire army it will die pretty damn quick. Just look at any high level TvP.
On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote: The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference
Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot.
Great point! We should have troops calldown.. NOW WE'RE TALKING!
And a lot of you are just looking at PvT, what about PvZ and PvP?
PvZ KA will help defend vs mutas It may be an alternative to colosus against hydras. KA not good vs roaches, brood lords, ultras.. onyl good vs clumped lings and vs hydras. drop play is risky vs zerg because they get easy map cotnrol
PvP this would be interesting. obviuosly mirror matches should be held to a different measure of balance.. but if this results in less colosus battles, id be all for it
You are confusing what is good. Storm is good against Mutas and an alternative to Colossi vs Hydras. KA does not make storm better or worse vs these things. What KA does it make it so it removes any strategical positioning with your HT and army. You don't have to use anything to defend until you need to defend which removes a big element of play. The opponent can no longer force your hand into a specific position so he can abuse a hole it creates somewhere else since with KA there are no holes.
That in a nutshell is why KA was removed. It doesn't add options to the game, it removes them.
KA doesnt make the deathball stronger. Any templars sitting in your deathabll will already have enough energy anyways.
Protoss units are not very mobile, and they are very weak when not all together. Protoss is also the race that is most dependent on gas. It is too weakening to them to have 2 HT and a couple zealots sitting in EVERY base.
Drops are already really devastating. If your gates are on cooldown, you have no choice but to move your whole (or at least half) army do defend the drop.
Try practicing more. It sounds like that's more your problem rather than a lack of KA. One templar at each base can shut down drops and the warpgate mechanic means that you don't even need units waiting before hand. Increase the speed of your play and terran drop play will be less of a hindrance.
Are you serious? What league are you? who are you to tell me to "practice more"
Protoss cant afford to build 12 observers as a heads up for when drops are coming. Unless they want to reduce the cost of observers, we need KA as a means of dealing with drops and base trade scenarios.
On November 05 2011 00:30 SupLilSon wrote: Wait, am I missing something from the OP? I really don't understand how those 2 games show anything about KA at all. First game is San vs Sc and second game is Oz vs MKP. So you are trying to analyze balance based off of 2 games with completely different players? You may have a point but the extreme lack of effort to provide any basis seriously hinders this argument. IIRC, even a large portion of Protoss players back then were convinced that KA was pretty damn broken.
All of the games from the old series involved KA just about. Game 9 of the new series is of the same players with heavy HT play but no KA. That's 6 games, plus a non KA game to show San and SC's skill is still about equal.
San is known for liking HT play, but the fact that he gets curbstomped when he's a whole gold base ahead (3 bases to 2) for 4 game minutes is mindblowing. I think that one game is a perfect example of why KA makes more sense than the route Blizz is trying to take.
One game shows that they are equal skill level? You must not watch GSL too much... Sc is a far superior player to San and IMO KA was the only reason San even took games from Sc. KA in conjunction with warpgate was a terrible function to have in the game. 6 supply of templar could wipe out 50+ supply of bio on a whim. And you would have games like the Sc vs San game where a Terran player would be astronomically ahead yet not be able to do anything because of the pure strength of KA.
SC was not a far superior player to San then, and the only reason why he lost was because he missed a shit ton of EMPs and made bone headed mistakes throughout that entire series. People arguing that KA removal was proper really don't understand the game at all, because as a P, the only way to defend against 2+ Medivac drops without over comitting as P was through the usage of KA.
Since the removal of KA, PvT win percentage plummeted from 50% (Yes, at the time when KA was at it's height in popularity, Protoss was still only winning 50% of the time against Terran in tournament play) to a poor like mid to low 40s. Blizzard obviously made a mistake, and KA removal was obviously crippling to an entire tech tree that was based on KA.
Not to mention that nothing was given in return to Protoss except an Archon buff which really isn't even that good, since Marines eat through Archon shields like breakfast anyways, same with mass EMPs which has become extremely popular lately. Storm was balanced around the fact that Khydarian Amulet existed; if KA was to be removed, they need to revert Storm back to the old beta radius where it was way bigger and much more useful. Right now Storm is pretty much terrible against any decent Terran, and going Templar tech is suicide for the most part.
Right now if you have a hard to defend 3rd, Terran basically gets a free win without even having to do anything but harass/contain with drops and trade armies with Protoss effectively (which isn't hard to do as long as you fight in an open area where you can surround/get a good concave). All the talk about Terran having a weak late game (of which there were plenty of top pros whining about) was total nonsense after watching guys like Puma and MVP absolutely destroy Archon/Templar/Colossus armies with MMMGViking and solid EMPs.
In short, KA removal was bad, especially when Protoss was given 0 compensation for it. Protoss has no way to secure 3rds without dying if the 3rd is slightly too far away from the natural. Warp-ins are not strong enough to defend against Rax drops. If you watch any recent mid to late game TvP, it favors Terran heavily now with their ability to just harass literally for free and do massive damage. That was a huge problem that all Protoss players were worried about, and clearly that is what is what causing Protoss to lose so much (other than 1-1-1 which was just silly). Couple that with the fact that Terran players actually learn to split and fight only when they can get a good concave, plus much better Ghost usage, = alot of Protoss players getting creamed left and right.
On November 05 2011 01:18 MarcL wrote: I would say the KA was OP and u cant compare storm with EMP just for the one reason u can kill units with a storm but u can get off 1 billion emps on the protoss army and no unit will die ...
If you EMP their entire army it will die pretty damn quick. Just look at any high level TvP.
2 ghosts by themselves will never kill 50+ supply of protoss deathball. 2 HT w/ KA will kill 50+ supply of MMM. That is the point he is making. KA was a "EASY" button. Protoss could be down 200-70 food and still be holding off subsequent attacks just purely by defending a ramp with KA HT.
On November 05 2011 00:30 SupLilSon wrote: Wait, am I missing something from the OP? I really don't understand how those 2 games show anything about KA at all. First game is San vs Sc and second game is Oz vs MKP. So you are trying to analyze balance based off of 2 games with completely different players? You may have a point but the extreme lack of effort to provide any basis seriously hinders this argument. IIRC, even a large portion of Protoss players back then were convinced that KA was pretty damn broken.
All of the games from the old series involved KA just about. Game 9 of the new series is of the same players with heavy HT play but no KA. That's 6 games, plus a non KA game to show San and SC's skill is still about equal.
San is known for liking HT play, but the fact that he gets curbstomped when he's a whole gold base ahead (3 bases to 2) for 4 game minutes is mindblowing. I think that one game is a perfect example of why KA makes more sense than the route Blizz is trying to take.
One game shows that they are equal skill level? You must not watch GSL too much... Sc is a far superior player to San and IMO KA was the only reason San even took games from Sc. KA in conjunction with warpgate was a terrible function to have in the game. 6 supply of templar could wipe out 50+ supply of bio on a whim. And you would have games like the Sc vs San game where a Terran player would be astronomically ahead yet not be able to do anything because of the pure strength of KA.
SC was not a far superior player to San then, and the only reason why he lost was because he missed a shit ton of EMPs and made bone headed mistakes throughout that entire series. People arguing that KA removal was proper really don't understand the game at all, because as a P, the only way to defend against 2+ Medivac drops without over comitting as P was through the usage of KA.
Since the removal of KA, PvT win percentage plummeted from 50% (Yes, at the time when KA was at it's height in popularity, Protoss was still only winning 50% of the time against Terran in tournament play) to a poor like mid to low 40s. Blizzard obviously made a mistake, and KA removal was obviously crippling to an entire tech tree that was based on KA.
Not to mention that nothing was given in return to Protoss except an Archon buff which really isn't even that good, since Marines eat through Archon shields like breakfast anyways, same with mass EMPs which has become extremely popular lately. Storm was balanced around the fact that Khydarian Amulet existed; if KA was to be removed, they need to revert Storm back to the old beta radius where it was way bigger and much more useful. Right now Storm is pretty much terrible against any decent Terran, and going Templar tech is suicide for the most part.
Right now if you have a hard to defend 3rd, Terran basically gets a free win without even having to do anything but harass/contain with drops and trade armies with Protoss effectively (which isn't hard to do as long as you fight in an open area where you can surround/get a good concave). All the talk about Terran having a weak late game (of which there were plenty of top pros whining about) was total nonsense after watching guys like Puma and MVP absolutely destroy Archon/Templar/Colossus armies with MMMGViking and solid EMPs.
In short, KA removal was bad, especially when Protoss was given 0 compensation for it. Protoss has no way to secure 3rds without dying if the 3rd is slightly too far away from the natural. Warp-ins are not strong enough to defend against Rax drops. If you watch any recent mid to late game TvP, it favors Terran heavily now with their ability to just harass literally for free and do massive damage. That was a huge problem that all Protoss players were worried about, and clearly that is what is what causing Protoss to lose so much (other than 1-1-1 which was just silly).
Ok, w.e don't believe Jinro, a player who probably has 100% more experience and knowledge with both those players... I'm not gonna argue who is better and who is not.
On November 05 2011 01:18 MarcL wrote: I would say the KA was OP and u cant compare storm with EMP just for the one reason u can kill units with a storm but u can get off 1 billion emps on the protoss army and no unit will die ...
If you EMP their entire army it will die pretty damn quick. Just look at any high level TvP.
2 ghosts by themselves will never kill 50+ supply of protoss deathball. 2 HT w/ KA will kill 50+ supply of MMM. That is the point he is making. KA was a "EASY" button. Protoss could be down 200-70 food and still be holding off subsequent attacks just purely by defending a ramp with KA HT.
Your example seems fair (though I would argue that a PF is capable of the same),
How about reducing the radius of KA storms? I would be fine with that.
Terrans always scream that we should spread our untis.. how about you spread yours?
On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote: The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced.
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference
Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot.
Great point! We should have troops calldown.. NOW WE'RE TALKING!
And a lot of you are just looking at PvT, what about PvZ and PvP?
PvZ KA will help defend vs mutas It may be an alternative to colosus against hydras. KA not good vs roaches, brood lords, ultras.. onyl good vs clumped lings and vs hydras. drop play is risky vs zerg because they get easy map cotnrol
PvP this would be interesting. obviuosly mirror matches should be held to a different measure of balance.. but if this results in less colosus battles, id be all for it
You are confusing what is good. Storm is good against Mutas and an alternative to Colossi vs Hydras. KA does not make storm better or worse vs these things. What KA does it make it so it removes any strategical positioning with your HT and army. You don't have to use anything to defend until you need to defend which removes a big element of play. The opponent can no longer force your hand into a specific position so he can abuse a hole it creates somewhere else since with KA there are no holes.
That in a nutshell is why KA was removed. It doesn't add options to the game, it removes them.
KA doesnt make the deathball stronger. Any templars sitting in your deathabll will already have enough energy anyways.
Protoss units are not very mobile, and they are very weak when not all together. Protoss is also the race that is most dependent on gas. It is too weakening to them to have 2 HT and a couple zealots sitting in EVERY base.
Drops are already really devastating. If your gates are on cooldown, you have no choice but to move your whole (or at least half) army do defend the drop.
Try practicing more. It sounds like that's more your problem rather than a lack of KA. One templar at each base can shut down drops and the warpgate mechanic means that you don't even need units waiting before hand. Increase the speed of your play and terran drop play will be less of a hindrance.
Are you serious? What league are you? who are you to tell me to "practice more"
Protoss cant afford to build 12 observers as a heads up for when drops are coming. Unless they want to reduce the cost of observers, we need KA as a means of dealing with drops and base trade scenarios.
My league is irrelevant. I'm a diamond so yea, youd beat me 1v1. But there are GM players that would tell you the same thing. All I'm saying is the problems you so adamantly argue are inherent to protoss are in fact fixable. Watch some protoss who are better than you (because believe me you are nowhere near good, being in masters doesn't mean shit to a pro), they deal with drops and can expand just as aggressively as terran and zerg. You really just sound whiny.
On November 05 2011 01:18 MarcL wrote: I would say the KA was OP and u cant compare storm with EMP just for the one reason u can kill units with a storm but u can get off 1 billion emps on the protoss army and no unit will die ...
If you EMP their entire army it will die pretty damn quick. Just look at any high level TvP.
2 ghosts by themselves will never kill 50+ supply of protoss deathball. 2 HT w/ KA will kill 50+ supply of MMM. That is the point he is making. KA was a "EASY" button. Protoss could be down 200-70 food and still be holding off subsequent attacks just purely by defending a ramp with KA HT.
Your example seems fair (though I would argue that a PF is capable of the same),
How about reducing the radius of KA storms? I would be fine with that.
Terrans always scream that we should spread our untis.. how about you spread yours?
PF is only hard to deal with for toss if you A-move at it. If you kill the repairing SCV, it goes down in under 5 seconds. Its gotten to a point where most pro Terrans don't even get PF because its so useless against someone who micros.
On November 05 2011 00:30 SupLilSon wrote: Wait, am I missing something from the OP? I really don't understand how those 2 games show anything about KA at all. First game is San vs Sc and second game is Oz vs MKP. So you are trying to analyze balance based off of 2 games with completely different players? You may have a point but the extreme lack of effort to provide any basis seriously hinders this argument. IIRC, even a large portion of Protoss players back then were convinced that KA was pretty damn broken.
All of the games from the old series involved KA just about. Game 9 of the new series is of the same players with heavy HT play but no KA. That's 6 games, plus a non KA game to show San and SC's skill is still about equal.
San is known for liking HT play, but the fact that he gets curbstomped when he's a whole gold base ahead (3 bases to 2) for 4 game minutes is mindblowing. I think that one game is a perfect example of why KA makes more sense than the route Blizz is trying to take.
One game shows that they are equal skill level? You must not watch GSL too much... Sc is a far superior player to San and IMO KA was the only reason San even took games from Sc. KA in conjunction with warpgate was a terrible function to have in the game. 6 supply of templar could wipe out 50+ supply of bio on a whim. And you would have games like the Sc vs San game where a Terran player would be astronomically ahead yet not be able to do anything because of the pure strength of KA.
SC was not a far superior player to San then, and the only reason why he lost was because he missed a shit ton of EMPs and made bone headed mistakes throughout that entire series. People arguing that KA removal was proper really don't understand the game at all, because as a P, the only way to defend against 2+ Medivac drops without over comitting as P was through the usage of KA.
Since the removal of KA, PvT win percentage plummeted from 50% (Yes, at the time when KA was at it's height in popularity, Protoss was still only winning 50% of the time against Terran in tournament play) to a poor like mid to low 40s. Blizzard obviously made a mistake, and KA removal was obviously crippling to an entire tech tree that was based on KA.
Not to mention that nothing was given in return to Protoss except an Archon buff which really isn't even that good, since Marines eat through Archon shields like breakfast anyways, same with mass EMPs which has become extremely popular lately. Storm was balanced around the fact that Khydarian Amulet existed; if KA was to be removed, they need to revert Storm back to the old beta radius where it was way bigger and much more useful. Right now Storm is pretty much terrible against any decent Terran, and going Templar tech is suicide for the most part.
Right now if you have a hard to defend 3rd, Terran basically gets a free win without even having to do anything but harass/contain with drops and trade armies with Protoss effectively (which isn't hard to do as long as you fight in an open area where you can surround/get a good concave). All the talk about Terran having a weak late game (of which there were plenty of top pros whining about) was total nonsense after watching guys like Puma and MVP absolutely destroy Archon/Templar/Colossus armies with MMMGViking and solid EMPs.
In short, KA removal was bad, especially when Protoss was given 0 compensation for it. Protoss has no way to secure 3rds without dying if the 3rd is slightly too far away from the natural. Warp-ins are not strong enough to defend against Rax drops. If you watch any recent mid to late game TvP, it favors Terran heavily now with their ability to just harass literally for free and do massive damage. That was a huge problem that all Protoss players were worried about, and clearly that is what is what causing Protoss to lose so much (other than 1-1-1 which was just silly).
Ok, w.e don't believe Jinro, a player who probably has 100% more experience and knowledge with both those players... I'm not gonna argue who is better and who is not.
You realize that Jinro and Tyler actually argued against the removal of KA when it was being removed right? They wanted alternatives rather than removals. In fact, alot of pro Terran players stated that removal of KA was NOT the way to balance the game. Right now, you see Protoss players unable to secure their 3rd against Terran players in nearly every single high level game, unless it is a map where the 3rd is easy to get to. That reason is because there is NO more KA. Without it, you get utterly creamed by octodrops that will constantly happen, as the Terran player slowly pulls ahead by continuously expanding and just massing cheap effective infantry that can trade armies with you all day.
And at the time, results wise BOTH San and SC were equals. You aren't going to win that argument, period.
On November 05 2011 01:18 MarcL wrote: I would say the KA was OP and u cant compare storm with EMP just for the one reason u can kill units with a storm but u can get off 1 billion emps on the protoss army and no unit will die ...
If you EMP their entire army it will die pretty damn quick. Just look at any high level TvP.
2 ghosts by themselves will never kill 50+ supply of protoss deathball. 2 HT w/ KA will kill 50+ supply of MMM. That is the point he is making. KA was a "EASY" button. Protoss could be down 200-70 food and still be holding off subsequent attacks just purely by defending a ramp with KA HT.
Your example seems fair (though I would argue that a PF is capable of the same),
How about reducing the radius of KA storms? I would be fine with that.
Terrans always scream that we should spread our untis.. how about you spread yours?
The best terran are spreading their units against hts with storm. Example: watch around 26min
On November 05 2011 00:37 RemrafGrez wrote: [quote]
I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue.
Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in?
Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference
Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot.
Great point! We should have troops calldown.. NOW WE'RE TALKING!
And a lot of you are just looking at PvT, what about PvZ and PvP?
PvZ KA will help defend vs mutas It may be an alternative to colosus against hydras. KA not good vs roaches, brood lords, ultras.. onyl good vs clumped lings and vs hydras. drop play is risky vs zerg because they get easy map cotnrol
PvP this would be interesting. obviuosly mirror matches should be held to a different measure of balance.. but if this results in less colosus battles, id be all for it
You are confusing what is good. Storm is good against Mutas and an alternative to Colossi vs Hydras. KA does not make storm better or worse vs these things. What KA does it make it so it removes any strategical positioning with your HT and army. You don't have to use anything to defend until you need to defend which removes a big element of play. The opponent can no longer force your hand into a specific position so he can abuse a hole it creates somewhere else since with KA there are no holes.
That in a nutshell is why KA was removed. It doesn't add options to the game, it removes them.
KA doesnt make the deathball stronger. Any templars sitting in your deathabll will already have enough energy anyways.
Protoss units are not very mobile, and they are very weak when not all together. Protoss is also the race that is most dependent on gas. It is too weakening to them to have 2 HT and a couple zealots sitting in EVERY base.
Drops are already really devastating. If your gates are on cooldown, you have no choice but to move your whole (or at least half) army do defend the drop.
Try practicing more. It sounds like that's more your problem rather than a lack of KA. One templar at each base can shut down drops and the warpgate mechanic means that you don't even need units waiting before hand. Increase the speed of your play and terran drop play will be less of a hindrance.
Are you serious? What league are you? who are you to tell me to "practice more"
Protoss cant afford to build 12 observers as a heads up for when drops are coming. Unless they want to reduce the cost of observers, we need KA as a means of dealing with drops and base trade scenarios.
My league is irrelevant. I'm a diamond so yea, youd beat me 1v1. But there are GM players that would tell you the same thing. All I'm saying is the problems you so adamantly argue are inherent to protoss are in fact fixable. Watch some protoss who are better than you (because believe me you are nowhere near good, being in masters doesn't mean shit to a pro), they deal with drops and can expand just as aggressively as terran and zerg. You really just sound whiny.
I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw a four base Protoss. It seems that Protoss have been going for 2 and 3 base timings because defending a fourth base and your main is nigh impossible. Protoss can definitely not expand as aggressively as Terran and Zerg, and they definitely deal with drops much more poorly. When they have blink, it gets a little better, but blink is no mutalisk.
A couple of reasons that I feel KA is good for the game:
1) HT are more exciting than colossi for both players. I would much rather watch an intense micro-battle between ghosts and HTs than watch some colossi and vikings a-move into each other.
2) I feel that the biggest problem with PvT design-wise is that bio armies are too strong and too adaptable for how mobile they are. If KA was still in the game, pure bio armies would just get rolled, rather than just having to add some ghosts and keep on going MMM. I really really really want to see HT armies just win straight up fights against bio, so that terrans can then have a choice between bio (extremely mobile but loses straight-up engagement) and mech (powerful but immobile). TvT and TvZ are arguably the best 2 matchups because of that choice, but bio is >>>>> mech in PvT. The reason is that you can't just throw a few ghosts or vikings into your bio-ball to deal with tanks or banelings. You have to completely change your army composition.
However, I think KA warp-ins are arguably too strong. What I would like to see is the option to either 1) warp in a templar with 50 energy (same cost/cooldown as now) 2) warp in a templar with 75 energy (make it cost more and have a longer cooldown)
On November 05 2011 01:53 Kovaz wrote: A couple of reasons that I feel KA is good for the game:
1) HT are more exciting than colossi for both players. I would much rather watch an intense micro-battle between ghosts and HTs than watch some colossi and vikings a-move into each other.
2) I feel that the biggest problem with PvT design-wise is that bio armies are too strong and too adaptable for how mobile they are. If KA was still in the game, pure bio armies would just get rolled, rather than just having to add some ghosts and keep on going MMM. I really really really want to see HT armies just win straight up fights against bio, so that terrans can then have a choice between bio (extremely mobile but loses straight-up engagement) and mech (powerful but immobile). TvT and TvZ are arguably the best 2 matchups because of that choice, but bio is >>>>> mech in PvT. The reason is that you can't just throw a few ghosts or vikings into your bio-ball to deal with tanks or banelings. You have to completely change your army composition.
However, I think KA warp-ins are arguably too strong. What I would like to see is the option to either 1) warp in a templar with 50 energy (same cost/cooldown as now) 2) warp in a templar with 75 energy (make it cost more and have a longer cooldown)
KA amulet was never overpowered. Period. Statistics prove that fact. Protoss never was above Terran by more than 2% in tournament play, and the second it was removed, has never come close to going back to 50% except during the month of June 2011 which is more of a statistical anomaly more than anything. Anyone coming in here trying to state otherwise is carrying some serious bias. All KA merely did was not allow Terran to constantly drop/swarm the Protoss player to death, and forced him to actually be cost effective in his trades rather than just suicide units constantly at the Protoss player (which is what exactly is occurring right now).
I did forget that Protoss did indeed have a strong hold over Terran in the month of March, but that was mostly due to the fact that Protoss players were beginning to switch to HT tech because it was a much stronger way of defending your bases and countering heavy bio pressure/harass than Colossus tech. Immediately once it was removed though, Protoss went straight into the gutter. I would call that a knee jerk nerf because of all the complaining.
On November 05 2011 01:53 Kovaz wrote: A couple of reasons that I feel KA is good for the game:
1) HT are more exciting than colossi for both players. I would much rather watch an intense micro-battle between ghosts and HTs than watch some colossi and vikings a-move into each other.
2) I feel that the biggest problem with PvT design-wise is that bio armies are too strong and too adaptable for how mobile they are. If KA was still in the game, pure bio armies would just get rolled, rather than just having to add some ghosts and keep on going MMM. I really really really want to see HT armies just win straight up fights against bio, so that terrans can then have a choice between bio (extremely mobile but loses straight-up engagement) and mech (powerful but immobile). TvT and TvZ are arguably the best 2 matchups because of that choice, but bio is >>>>> mech in PvT. The reason is that you can't just throw a few ghosts or vikings into your bio-ball to deal with tanks or banelings. You have to completely change your army composition.
However, I think KA warp-ins are arguably too strong. What I would like to see is the option to either 1) warp in a templar with 50 energy (same cost/cooldown as now) 2) warp in a templar with 75 energy (make it cost more and have a longer cooldown)
KA amulet was never overpowered. Period. Statistics prove that fact. Protoss never was above Terran by more than 2% in tournament play, and the second it was removed, has never come close to going back to 50% except during the month of June 2011 which is more of a statistical anomaly more than anything. Anyone coming in here trying to state otherwise is carrying some serious bias. All KA merely did was not allow Terran to constantly drop/swarm the Protoss player to death, and forced him to actually be cost effective in his trades rather than just suicide units constantly at the Protoss player (which is what exactly is occurring right now).
As much as I want it back in the game too, statistics don't prove that. Whether or not Protoss was doing well has nothing to do with how OP KA is because people were not playing optimally back then, and because there have been other changes to the game since then. The fact that since then ghosts have become much more popular is an example of a change in the way Terrans play that might mean EMP was always OP, but underused. You cannot prove KA is OP, and since it is gone you cannot prove it is not OP either.
On November 05 2011 01:53 Kovaz wrote: A couple of reasons that I feel KA is good for the game:
1) HT are more exciting than colossi for both players. I would much rather watch an intense micro-battle between ghosts and HTs than watch some colossi and vikings a-move into each other.
2) I feel that the biggest problem with PvT design-wise is that bio armies are too strong and too adaptable for how mobile they are. If KA was still in the game, pure bio armies would just get rolled, rather than just having to add some ghosts and keep on going MMM. I really really really want to see HT armies just win straight up fights against bio, so that terrans can then have a choice between bio (extremely mobile but loses straight-up engagement) and mech (powerful but immobile). TvT and TvZ are arguably the best 2 matchups because of that choice, but bio is >>>>> mech in PvT. The reason is that you can't just throw a few ghosts or vikings into your bio-ball to deal with tanks or banelings. You have to completely change your army composition.
However, I think KA warp-ins are arguably too strong. What I would like to see is the option to either 1) warp in a templar with 50 energy (same cost/cooldown as now) 2) warp in a templar with 75 energy (make it cost more and have a longer cooldown)
KA amulet was never overpowered. Period. Statistics prove that fact. Protoss never was above Terran by more than 2% in tournament play, and the second it was removed, has never come close to going back to 50% except during the month of June 2011 which is more of a statistical anomaly more than anything. Anyone coming in here trying to state otherwise is carrying some serious bias. All KA merely did was not allow Terran to constantly drop/swarm the Protoss player to death, and forced him to actually be cost effective in his trades rather than just suicide units constantly at the Protoss player (which is what exactly is occurring right now).
As much as I want it back in the game too, statistics don't prove that. Whether or not Protoss was doing well has nothing to do with how OP KA is because people were not playing optimally back then, and because there have been other changes to the game since then. The fact that since then ghosts have become much more popular is an example of a change in the way Terrans play that might mean EMP was always OP, but underused. You cannot prove KA is OP, and since it is gone you cannot prove it is not OP either.
So all that you stated was that no one can prove anything was/is OP or balanced, and as such that the removal of KA was bad. I can prove to you with real hard statistics that the removal of KA was bad.
Look at the month of March 2011. Protoss is winning by ALOT right? Why? Because KA usage was starting to see alot of play. Terran players didn't adjust to playing against it yet, and had yet to ever face such heavy usage of HT. What happens? Rather than Terran players actually adjusting their play to a new development in the metagame, they simply CRY (which is the truth, look at the posts on TL of high level Terran players during those months) rather than manning up and trying to figure out how to counter heavy HT usage.
What happens? KA is removed immediately because Protoss is actually beating Terran in tournaments now (when before they were getting smashed by almost 60% almost every month except the month of April). The whole singular reason that it was removed was because of a knee jerk reaction to a huge spike in Protoss victories that had never occured before. The second KA is removed, Terran win percentage immediately goes up, and continues to go up because they figure out how to utilize Ghosts better. 3 months in tournament play since March 2011 have shown Terran players absolutely SMASHING Protoss players. This is not some coincidence; you do not just go from a 58% to 40% swing within a matter of months. KA was CRUCIAL to defending your 3rd and 4th without having to overcommit an army or resources on warp-ins. The removal of it was a boneheaded decision that was fueled by a bunch of Terran whining because Protoss was actually for once winning (look at the graphs, it supports my arguments).
KA was imbalanced, that's why it was removed. KA with warp gates allowed a HT to be warped almost anywhere on the map with instant sci storm. In contrast, ghosts take 45 second to train, then they walk to where they need to go so reinforcing a battle in the middle of the map or getting ghosts to counter Templar was impossible.
If one race has an ability to do something, that the other race is simply incapable of dealing with regardless of skill, That's the definition of imbalanced. Regardless of how skilled a player is, it is not possible to train a ghost, and transport that ghost to the battle field in time to counter a warped in HT with KA. Its simple math. That's why the removal was necessary - and a good change.
Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT?
This is ridiculous. "Wildly game changing patches?" There have been 0 wild game changing patches. The patches have been small changes that have improved the game, nothing wild has occurred.
The game is very balanced but as Blizzard has stated, Terran has an edge against Protoss in very high level play in Korea. And Blizzard is addressing this issue with the upcoming ghost nurf, the small upgrade cost changes among other changes recently.
if your going to create a thread regarding balance issues, its wise to make your assertions based on plenty of examples in a more thorough way than this post does. You never addressed any of the issues as to why KA was removed in the first place or attempted to show why that was a mistake. You just assert it was a mistake because Protoss is having trouble vs Terran now.
Its entirely possible, and in my judgement correct, to say that KA removal was necessary and a good change but Protoss does seem to have other issues that need to be looked into.
On November 05 2011 01:53 Kovaz wrote: A couple of reasons that I feel KA is good for the game:
1) HT are more exciting than colossi for both players. I would much rather watch an intense micro-battle between ghosts and HTs than watch some colossi and vikings a-move into each other.
2) I feel that the biggest problem with PvT design-wise is that bio armies are too strong and too adaptable for how mobile they are. If KA was still in the game, pure bio armies would just get rolled, rather than just having to add some ghosts and keep on going MMM. I really really really want to see HT armies just win straight up fights against bio, so that terrans can then have a choice between bio (extremely mobile but loses straight-up engagement) and mech (powerful but immobile). TvT and TvZ are arguably the best 2 matchups because of that choice, but bio is >>>>> mech in PvT. The reason is that you can't just throw a few ghosts or vikings into your bio-ball to deal with tanks or banelings. You have to completely change your army composition.
However, I think KA warp-ins are arguably too strong. What I would like to see is the option to either 1) warp in a templar with 50 energy (same cost/cooldown as now) 2) warp in a templar with 75 energy (make it cost more and have a longer cooldown)
KA amulet was never overpowered. Period. Statistics prove that fact. Protoss never was above Terran by more than 2% in tournament play, and the second it was removed, has never come close to going back to 50% except during the month of June 2011 which is more of a statistical anomaly more than anything. Anyone coming in here trying to state otherwise is carrying some serious bias. All KA merely did was not allow Terran to constantly drop/swarm the Protoss player to death, and forced him to actually be cost effective in his trades rather than just suicide units constantly at the Protoss player (which is what exactly is occurring right now).
As much as I want it back in the game too, statistics don't prove that. Whether or not Protoss was doing well has nothing to do with how OP KA is because people were not playing optimally back then, and because there have been other changes to the game since then. The fact that since then ghosts have become much more popular is an example of a change in the way Terrans play that might mean EMP was always OP, but underused. You cannot prove KA is OP, and since it is gone you cannot prove it is not OP either.
So all that you stated was that no one can prove anything was/is OP or balanced, and as such that the removal of KA was bad. I can prove to you with real hard statistics that the removal of KA was bad.
Look at the month of March 2011. Protoss is winning by ALOT right? Why? Because KA usage was starting to see alot of play. Terran players didn't adjust to playing against it yet, and had yet to ever face such heavy usage of HT. What happens? Rather than Terran players actually adjusting their play to a new development in the metagame, they simply CRY (which is the truth, look at the posts on TL of high level Terran players during those months) rather than manning up and trying to figure out how to counter heavy HT usage.
What happens? KA is removed immediately because Protoss is actually beating Terran in tournaments now (when before they were getting smashed by almost 60% almost every month except the month of April). The whole singular reason that it was removed was because of a knee jerk reaction to a huge spike in Protoss victories that had never occured before. The second KA is removed, Terran win percentage immediately goes up, and continues to go up because they figure out how to utilize Ghosts better. 3 months in tournament play since March 2011 have shown Terran players absolutely SMASHING Protoss players. This is not some coincidence; you do not just go from a 58% to 40% swing within a matter of months. KA was CRUCIAL to defending your 3rd and 4th without having to overcommit an army or resources on warp-ins. The removal of it was a boneheaded decision that was fueled by a bunch of Terran whining because Protoss was actually for once winning (look at the graphs, it supports my arguments).
All you have proved is that Protoss strategy relied heavily on KA, and with its removal Protoss strategy was worse. This does not prove that the removal of KA was bad. Look, in general, I agree with your point and the idea that KA is beneficial for expanding more and protecting more bases. But I am not a pro, and I do not understand all the intricacies at play, so I cannot say if it was or was not OP, and I don't think you can as well. I believe that post KA change I have heard Protoss pros like Tyler and Incontrol state that KA removal was a good thing. At least I have heard them say that at some point. I don't know if they still feel that way, or even if they are right, but you cannot prove something was necessary or not OP when strategies change and when people were playing worse than they are now.
The fact that Protoss strategy was relying on KA does not mean that its removal was bad for the game. You have no causal link there.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that is a slower method and gives your opponent reaction time whilst if you just unload it's faster and gives less reaction time.
EPT
