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On November 05 2011 01:39 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 01:27 Roxy wrote:On November 05 2011 01:21 Numy wrote:On November 05 2011 01:17 Roxy wrote:On November 05 2011 01:15 sunnata wrote:On November 05 2011 00:46 Erasme wrote:On November 05 2011 00:41 50bani wrote:On November 05 2011 00:37 RemrafGrez wrote:On November 05 2011 00:26 Snowbear wrote:
The removal had nothing to do with HT drops. It had something to do with the fact that you couldn't kill a protoss. After you killed his army, he could warp in some HT's and storm the hell out of you (which was possible since all the ghosts were dead after the fight).
Making amulet +15 energy instead of +25 would make it much more balanced. I'm OK with +15 instead of +25, but was it really impossible to kill a Protoss because of KA? That seems counter intuitive to argue. Roles reversed and P kills a T army. If you assume both players aren't missing rounds of production, in the flip scenario wouldn't Protoss have just as much trouble killing Terran because bio + ghosts + medivacs would pop, and the ghosts would have 75 energy for EMP? Or do you mean if you killed his army, you coudn't even hit an outlying expansion because he'd wait for you to arrive then warp in? Ghosts come out of Barracks, HTs come out of thin air anywhere on the map, huge difference Warp in storm anywhere on the map was op. Seriously, ghost does not insta travel to a hidden supply depot. Great point! We should have troops calldown.. NOW WE'RE TALKING! And a lot of you are just looking at PvT, what about PvZ and PvP? PvZ KA will help defend vs mutas It may be an alternative to colosus against hydras. KA not good vs roaches, brood lords, ultras.. onyl good vs clumped lings and vs hydras. drop play is risky vs zerg because they get easy map cotnrol PvP this would be interesting. obviuosly mirror matches should be held to a different measure of balance.. but if this results in less colosus battles, id be all for it You are confusing what is good. Storm is good against Mutas and an alternative to Colossi vs Hydras. KA does not make storm better or worse vs these things. What KA does it make it so it removes any strategical positioning with your HT and army. You don't have to use anything to defend until you need to defend which removes a big element of play. The opponent can no longer force your hand into a specific position so he can abuse a hole it creates somewhere else since with KA there are no holes. That in a nutshell is why KA was removed. It doesn't add options to the game, it removes them. KA doesnt make the deathball stronger. Any templars sitting in your deathabll will already have enough energy anyways. Protoss units are not very mobile, and they are very weak when not all together. Protoss is also the race that is most dependent on gas. It is too weakening to them to have 2 HT and a couple zealots sitting in EVERY base. Drops are already really devastating. If your gates are on cooldown, you have no choice but to move your whole (or at least half) army do defend the drop. Try practicing more. It sounds like that's more your problem rather than a lack of KA. One templar at each base can shut down drops and the warpgate mechanic means that you don't even need units waiting before hand. Increase the speed of your play and terran drop play will be less of a hindrance.
One templar cannot shut down all drop play by itself, come on. Hell, one templar can't even kill marauder drops if they sit through an entire storm.
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I think that HTs would be super viable if they had KA or a speedupgrade:
If you specifically look for it in progames you see HTs usually getting of one storm or/and a feedback and then dying, even if they are made into archons. If they had higher speed they would be able to be reused or get morphed into archons safely.
Why reintroducing KA would make them super viable doesnt need to be explained does it?
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We don't actually know if KA was OP or not. People seem to be forgetting that when KA was still in the game HT were actually used less often in PvT than they are now. Colossi were almost always the more popular choice back then, HT only saw use fairly late game. Terran almost never build Ghosts until HT were on the field also.
The famous San game was actually played AFTER the KA removal was up on the PTR, prior to that we heard almost 0 complaints directed at HT, in fact it was often the opposite, people would complain that only Colossi were viable and the Templar tech path too weak.
There was never a period where Protoss were smashing Terran in every tournament by warping in HT with Storm everywhere, it simply never happened.
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Like many others, I think the proper response would be to bring back Amulet but have it only do +15 energy, so you could warp in Templar but they wouldn't immediately have Storms. It would take about 8 seconds to build up to 75 energy, which I think it balanced given that Infestors get an immediate Fungal with their upgrade.
The only reason I can see for not doing this is if Blizzard wants HT's to be Protoss's "timing dilemma" the same way that Drones vs. Army is for Zerg. Do you warp in a round of Templar now knowing that if you get hit in the next 45 seconds you'll probably lose or get smashed, or do you make the safer play and warp in normal units that give you safety for the next 45 seconds but have less utility past 45 seconds?
This coming from a zerg who already sucks against Protoss...
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On November 05 2011 00:00 VeryAverage wrote:
All I can say that EMPs were a whole lot less devastating because you could warp in HTs after all the EMPs were off, so even though your army's shields were all gone, you could still safely land storms which would even out the battle a bit.
It didn't make a huge difference in PvZ or PvP. I liked the upgrade personally, I think they should have just made it 15+ energy instead of 25+ or even not touched it at all.
They were also a whole lot less devastating because the pathing spread out units a lot more, few Terrans got more than a couple SVs in TvP (I know I didn't), and Protoss wasn't completely dependent on its Tier 3 units like they are in SC2. But when you have someone like David Kim balancing the game, who admitted to not watching GSL very much and who primarily consults NA players, who are bad except Huk and Idra, and we know Idra's opinion can't be taken too seriously, then we can expect things like KA removal.
The famous San game was actually played AFTER the KA removal was up on the PTR, prior to that we heard almost 0 complaints directed at HT, in fact it was often the opposite, people would complain that only Colossi were viable and the Templar tech path too weak.
Lower-tier NA pros complained. GG. I recall David Kim asking Catz and Minigun on the matter, and I in fact was watching Minigun's stream those many months ago when dayvie was consulting him. lol. I wish Kim would focus on where people know how to play the game, that being Korea, rather than on the second worst realm.
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Romania1275 Posts
KA was way to strong for 2days meta game since toss evolved so much compared to T.
T is overpowerd in the late game and its a known fact however so few games get there that it seems pointless to brain storm how to balance it now before HOTS release.
With KA we won't have the problems we do now but is the T who would be underpowerd almost all game long and toss that would be unbeatable late game.
Its not like tosses can't win a game if they are better by a decent-large margin without risking hugely ( see: HuK/Sase/Naniwa PvT )and honestly it seems to me that Sage/MC have a weaker pvt right now then our foreign toss "trio".
If there is an easy "balance" button then i say press it but i see non and KA is not it, KA is switching up whos owning and who is forced to get ahead early/mid/early-late game to win
On November 05 2011 03:15 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 00:00 VeryAverage wrote:
All I can say that EMPs were a whole lot less devastating because you could warp in HTs after all the EMPs were off, so even though your army's shields were all gone, you could still safely land storms which would even out the battle a bit.
It didn't make a huge difference in PvZ or PvP. I liked the upgrade personally, I think they should have just made it 15+ energy instead of 25+ or even not touched it at all. They were also a whole lot less devastating because the pathing spread out units a lot more, few Terrans got more than a couple SVs in TvP (I know I didn't), and Protoss wasn't completely dependent on its Tier 3 units like they are in SC2. But when you have someone like David Kim balancing the game, who admitted to not watching GSL very much and who primarily consults NA players, who are bad except Huk and Idra, and we know Idra's opinion can't be taken too seriously, then we can expect things like KA removal.
When the hell did David Kim said that o.o
For all i know he takes korean ladder wlrs and gsl more seriously then NA/EU
Gsl is the only god damn tournament that is sponsored in a huge way by blizzard dam it.
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On November 05 2011 03:15 Aterons_toss wrote:KA was way to strong for 2days meta game since toss evolved so much compared to T. T is overpowerd in the late game and its a known fact however so few games get there that it seems pointless to brain storm how to balance it now before HOTS release. With KA we won't have the problems we do now but is the T who would be underpowerd almost all game long and toss that would be unbeatable late game. Its not like tosses can't win a game if they are better by a decent-large margin without risking hugely ( see: HuK/Sase/Naniwa PvT )and honestly it seems to me that Sage/MC have a weaker pvt right now then our foreign toss "trio". If there is an easy "balance" button then i say press it but i see non and KA is not it, KA is switching up whos owning and who is forced to get ahead early/mid/early-late game to win Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 03:15 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On November 05 2011 00:00 VeryAverage wrote:
All I can say that EMPs were a whole lot less devastating because you could warp in HTs after all the EMPs were off, so even though your army's shields were all gone, you could still safely land storms which would even out the battle a bit.
It didn't make a huge difference in PvZ or PvP. I liked the upgrade personally, I think they should have just made it 15+ energy instead of 25+ or even not touched it at all. They were also a whole lot less devastating because the pathing spread out units a lot more, few Terrans got more than a couple SVs in TvP (I know I didn't), and Protoss wasn't completely dependent on its Tier 3 units like they are in SC2. But when you have someone like David Kim balancing the game, who admitted to not watching GSL very much and who primarily consults NA players, who are bad except Huk and Idra, and we know Idra's opinion can't be taken too seriously, then we can expect things like KA removal. When the hell did David Kim said that o.o For all i know he takes korean ladder wlrs and gsl more seriously then NA/EU Gsl is the only god damn tournament that is sponsored in a huge way by blizzard dam it.
I'm not going to look through interviews to find it, but I'm just surprised you weren't around even recently, because it caused quite a stir. People were even mentioning it in the Questions for Browder thread just a couple weeks ago.
And so what if the GSL is the highest skill tournament? If he was serious, he would be learning Korean (if he doesn't) or getting someone who can translate, and would be consulting high-level Korean pros on B.net, not low-tier NA pros. On top of that, he would be watching every set of the GSL (apparently the GSL is too boring; he'd rather watch international tournaments or low-skilled players from NA).
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I've said this before, and it is too damn powerful for THIS game. WARP in with WARP PRISM BUFF is TOO strong. if it was implemented again, now that people use warp prism, you could warp in a storm in your opponents mineral line whenever u want. lolz~!
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On November 05 2011 01:12 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 23:51 RemrafGrez wrote:Old games with khaydarin amulet lasted 40+ minutes and were very close going to one player or the other. See here: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors2/vod/62509New games without KA but same players: http://www.gomtv.net/2011wcg/vod/66478Look at game 9. It worries me. Protoss up 1 base most of game? A gold base ahead for 4 minutes... from 15 minutes till 19 minutes. Harassing with warp prisms. Now SC makes more ghosts, uses snipe or EMP depending on what is better at that point in time. Makes a viking to finally shut down the harass at his main. Every big engagement goes in favor of Terran I think. And I don't think you can say SC is better than San, because San beat him earlier in the series when SC tried to do a 1 base all in. SC did beat Oz with a delayed 1/1/1 one base build in game 5. San's PvP seems lacking, but PvT he seems solid... but can't hold on going HT + DT + gateway + warp prism. Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT? Sc is way better than San and has been way better than San for a long time...
Cause the 22 best RTS gamers in the entire world just happened to pick terran am i right?
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On November 05 2011 03:24 Grampz wrote:
I've said this before, and it is too damn powerful for THIS game. WARP in with WARP PRISM BUFF is TOO strong. if it was implemented again, now that people use warp prism, you could warp in a storm in your opponents mineral line whenever u want. lolz~!
By "whenever you want" do you mean past the 11-13 minute mark at expansions that don't have turrets or spore crawlers?
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Italy12246 Posts
On November 05 2011 03:24 Grampz wrote:
I've said this before, and it is too damn powerful for THIS game. WARP in with WARP PRISM BUFF is TOO strong. if it was implemented again, now that people use warp prism, you could warp in a storm in your opponents mineral line whenever u want. lolz~!
That was actually done. Not often, but it was.
Besides, not warping in but having the ht loaded makes a storm drop stronger as it requires a faster reaction from your opponent, and it's not that different than say a baneling bomb anyway.
On topic: i think if the ghost vs templar battle was a bit more even, ka not being ingame wouldn't be that big of a deal. Snipe and emp having range of 9 and 2.25 speed for templar would even things out decently; KA together with warpgates causes too many issues imo. It would still be nice if it was +15 energy instead, but oh well...
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On November 05 2011 03:24 Grampz wrote:
I've said this before, and it is too damn powerful for THIS game. WARP in with WARP PRISM BUFF is TOO strong. if it was implemented again, now that people use warp prism, you could warp in a storm in your opponents mineral line whenever u want. lolz~!
dude, how do you play this game? are you also worried about burrowed infestors? dt rushes? cloack banshee?
i dont know what games you've been playing but storm drops have been around for almost a decade in THIS(starcraft) game.
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they should at least make templar move speed be 2.25, when they removed the KA.
but yeah, blizz do what blizz think is right.
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I have always felt even top pros can't feed back enough ghost and spread there Templars enough to ever trade evenly in emp vs Storm battles It's to much of a luck factor sometimes. Also it bothers me they never tried balancing the ka first before a full remove yet things like fungal np and emp all have changed or had changes tested on the ptr. I think if they reduced the cost of the ka and gave it say a plus 10 or 12 energy it would fit Nicely where Protoss couldnt use it as a crutch but would also close the gap where if you see and incoming counter attack u could warp it in time if scouted early but couldn't if u didn't scout it wary enough
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It would be a nice solution to this stupid ling muta base race PvZ metagame crap that's going on 
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It would be nice if Protoss were rewarded for being able to expand more, instead of punished because defense of multipronged attacks is harder for them than other races.
Currently it also seems like Terran gets too big of an advantage if they win an egagement. White Ra often complains on his stream about Terran being able to finish you when their units are all in the red.
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I think they shouldn't just remove stuff from the game if it may be OP. They could have atleast tweak it, I believe that if they would have led the metagame evolve more or just reduce the amount of energy it adds so the storm after warpin isn't instant, it could have worked.
Before KA removel Protoss was really strong PvT, without it emps just crush the shit out of the protoss army late game (not saying EMP is OP or anything, just that without KA ghost are stronger than HT). As I said I don't like the attitude of just removing stuff if it's too strong, I'd have prefered to see the game evolve with it, especially given that protoss is already really low on unit specific upgrades (especially given that they also removed void ray speed).
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The point to removing KA was the fact that if all 3 races paid for their respective spellcasters at the same time, HTs would end up with over 100 energy when the infestors popped which was extremely imbalanced. The only way KA should be implemented back into the game is if they remove warp gates or don't allow it to work with warp gates but only if you use gateways to make templar.
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On November 05 2011 03:28 VTPerfect wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 01:12 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 04 2011 23:51 RemrafGrez wrote:Old games with khaydarin amulet lasted 40+ minutes and were very close going to one player or the other. See here: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors2/vod/62509New games without KA but same players: http://www.gomtv.net/2011wcg/vod/66478Look at game 9. It worries me. Protoss up 1 base most of game? A gold base ahead for 4 minutes... from 15 minutes till 19 minutes. Harassing with warp prisms. Now SC makes more ghosts, uses snipe or EMP depending on what is better at that point in time. Makes a viking to finally shut down the harass at his main. Every big engagement goes in favor of Terran I think. And I don't think you can say SC is better than San, because San beat him earlier in the series when SC tried to do a 1 base all in. SC did beat Oz with a delayed 1/1/1 one base build in game 5. San's PvP seems lacking, but PvT he seems solid... but can't hold on going HT + DT + gateway + warp prism. Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT? Sc is way better than San and has been way better than San for a long time... Cause the 22 best RTS gamers in the entire world just happened to pick terran am i right?
While that would be one of the world's most remarkable coincidences, the chances of that happening are next to nonexistent. Blizzard's complacency and ignorance reminds me of playing CnC Generals, where I'd abuse the hell out of AF and Toxic general, and people would still claim the game is perfectly balanced...
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As a toss player, I think KA is OP. I also think ghosts are op. I don't think the solution is reintroducing KA.
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EPT
