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On November 05 2011 04:15 Oreo7 wrote:
It made it so 2-3 emps couldn't make the terran win the game out right. As it is, protoss can't really reinforce armies with anything but zeals.
they are getting battle hellions so they counter the last unit protoss has in pvt, colossi is very very easy countered, and force antiair like stalkers which against mmmghost is seriously nothing
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On November 05 2011 04:21 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 04:10 CptCutter wrote:On November 05 2011 00:19 blackbrrd wrote:On November 05 2011 00:11 sperY wrote:On November 05 2011 00:06 Nolot wrote:On November 05 2011 00:05 bebe01 wrote:On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote:
No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons. You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA? Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin. If the Terran pulls probes when you start to warp-in you can just cancel it by transforming the prism. In other words, doing damage and just risking a 200 mineral warp prism. If you fly around with HT's in a Warp Prism, there is a good chance it will die with your really expensive HT's inside it. Besides, there are some expansions (usually late-game expansions) where you could warp-in on the high ground behind the base. What they probably could do to make HT's better again is shorter storm research time and making it a bit cheaper. This would lessen the risk, they have already reduced the reward of going this path. Going back to warp-in HT's with storm is not a good option I think. wait, you honestly think that ht needs buffing? are you insane? unline emp, storm does actual damage and kills units. do what the terrans do and do not clump your units if your that scared of emp. not hard. EMP does an instant 100 damage to Protoss, at 10 range with (currently) a 2 AoE. Storm does 80 damage in a 1.5 AoE at 9 range. High Templars cannot cloak. High Templars cannot attack. High Templars are slow as shit. High Templars do not have an energy upgrade, unlike Ghosts. And yes, it is ridiculously hard to split your army against an invisible foe that can carpet bomb your entire army in a second.
you forgot that storm deals its damage over time also terran has medivacs which heal all the bio at a decent rate just like how protoss shields regen, emp cant outright kill a unit but if used with a bio army after a carpet bomb of emps then the P just has no chance due to having a half health no energy army vs a full force stimmed marine marauder medivac ghost viking force all the P can do is warpin a ton of chargelots and hope that the armies are traded evenly (a bad thing for P due to how long it takes for colossi to be created)
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I don't think that KA needs to return, but templars definitely need to be a bit more capable in rough, particularly scrappy situations. They need a movement buff or a weak attack or SOMETHING. I would be happy with either a return to the walking speed of 2.25 (zealot, colossus, sentry etc) OR a small attack. Ghosts can cloak, they keep pace with unstimmed bio, and they can attack, or snipe while cloaked assuming there's enough energy (and in HoTS, cloak wont deplete energy so it will be easier to snipe while cloaked). Infestors can burrow-move and they can also launch infested terrans to buy time or defend themselves.
HT are just absolutely HELPLESS alone, they have absolutely no option to defend themselves from ANYTHING. Imagine seeing 2 HT roam the map trying to find something to feedback. It's never EVER going to happen, yet you have almost every tvp, tvz, zvp, zvz, and zvt where cloaked ghosts or burrowed infestors are making a move on the map, alone, landing key game changing spells.
You can't call it "racial diversity" when its nothing more than a direct weakness, and Blizzard cannot balance a game unit-for-unit, by food cost, DPS, build time, etc (as they are doing) without giving similar options to all races.
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Well, this is an old story, but there's another way to deal with KA apart from removing it from the game: go mech!
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Really, I think, and have thought since the infestor nerfs, the best fix for the high templar would be to buff feedback to 10 range.
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On November 05 2011 01:01 Roxy wrote:
IMO:
Either move EMP to raven and we dont get KA back
OR
Leave EMP on ghosts (at 1.5 radius) and we get KA back
Don't you mean leave EMP on ghosts at 1.5 radius (or whatever works, i'm not the go to guy on that decision) and we get a NERFED-ka back.
Fair =D
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On November 05 2011 04:46 kyarisan wrote:
I don't think that KA needs to return, but templars definitely need to be a bit more capable in rough, particularly scrappy situations. They need a movement buff or a weak attack or SOMETHING. I would be happy with either a return to the walking speed of 2.25 (zealot, colossus, sentry etc) OR a small attack. Ghosts can cloak, they keep pace with unstimmed bio, and they can attack, or snipe while cloaked assuming there's enough energy (and in HoTS, cloak wont deplete energy so it will be easier to snipe while cloaked). Infestors can burrow-move and they can also launch infested terrans to buy time or defend themselves.
HT are just absolutely HELPLESS alone, they have absolutely no option to defend themselves from ANYTHING. Imagine seeing 2 HT roam the map trying to find something to feedback. It's never EVER going to happen, yet you have almost every tvp, tvz, zvp, zvz, and zvt where cloaked ghosts or burrowed infestors are making a move on the map, alone, landing key game changing spells.
You can't call it "racial diversity" when its nothing more than a direct weakness, and Blizzard cannot balance a game unit-for-unit, by food cost, DPS, build time, etc (as they are doing) without giving similar options to all races.
2.25 move speed and 63/faster regen energy upgrade, thats it! do it blizzardTT
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amulet wouldn't change anything currently, as the hts would simple get sniped away. instant spells (fungal can count as one too) that have higher range then a dot spell is just bad. So they should simply reduce fungal and emp to range 8 and keep the 2 range radius. that would get rid of the only problem toss has. Opponents casters in front, while theirs that are slower have to be behind or atleast within the army, so there is no way to stop opponent casters with their casts from affecting the army.
Radius of 1,5 (fungal should follow soon) is still the same range, and won't remove the chance of the opponent casters being in front of the army, as they can tank a storm.
Now hts will be able to go in front of the army and storm the casters moving in, problem is that they can tank it but a faster double storm + archon more works. radius 1.5 is really weak though when you attack. So caster vs caster will look like tvt.
Amulet won't come back anyway, but its not the current problem. Its the ability of the other races to abuse a range 0.5 advantage on instant spells(since fungal stops movement when you outrange something it could be counted as an instant spell), allowing the opponent casters to be in front of the army, while toss can't. (most also try feedback instead of storm most of the times, biggest mistake you can do)
That way hts can't protect the army. The problem though a full ghost barrage on the whole toss army is deadly, chained fungals are deadly. And one storm hitting under 100 hp units full (which is hard to avoid in 200 supply vs 200 supply) is deadly. That is one storm compared to 4 fungals or 4 emps. And a storm barrage on for example a bio or stacked air army is instant death with no losses for the toss.
So yeah storm should be harder to get on the opponents army. But at the moment its just to hard on pro level. On noob level you just have to drop 1 templar at a time with your prism and storm and win. So a buff to hts isn't really needed :3. Just a change making micro against them harder
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On November 05 2011 01:12 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Sc is way better than San and has been way better than San for a long time...
Hey Jinro, your sentiments back then were largely what Protoss' really agreed with, a Nerf would be way more appropriate. You guessed that it would screw with P, and it did, what has changed from then till now? P has gone to crap, can you really argue against this? It makes for such interesting and fun games (shit it makes em pretty balanced in the fact that Protoss has a change against an equal Terran opponent). I dunno Jinro you're really flippy floppy.
On February 26 2011 15:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I think this change is gonna be too big, P needs at least the old BW upgrade back (+50 mana, starts with 63 mana instead of 50).
With HTs starting at 50, its like you cant even warp them in in advance vs units in the middle of the map. Its a bit extreme that you can just warp them in as you spot the dropship unloading in your base, but they need something.
Yes Jinro, you thought right, "this change [was] too big."
This was from the removal announcement 8 months ago. Even then we questioned that removal, it was out of the blue, they should nerfed colossus, etc. Both terran and Zerg would have liked that, and the fun dynamics of HT play would have emerged, but Blizzard didn't even foster that. It was an unnecessary-COMPLETE removal then I thought, and as it turns out, yea it was unnecessary, that's why Protoss has such terrible success rates these days.
On November 05 2011 01:46 SupLilSon wrote:
Ok, w.e don't believe Jinro, a player who probably has 100% more experience and knowledge with both those players... I'm not gonna argue who is better and who is not.
SupLilSon, no no no, you have it wrong. Jinro is a player who has probaby has more experience and knowledge, and i'm not gonna argue who is better and who is not, Jinro knows more than I ever will, which is why we Protoss agreed with his sentiments, anything else?
sup son...
+ Show Spoiler +On February 26 2011 15:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I think this change is gonna be too big, P needs at least the old BW upgrade back (+50 mana, starts with 63 mana instead of 50).
With HTs starting at 50, its like you cant even warp them in in advance vs units in the middle of the map.
Terrans were a lot shittier back then. If they played like they do now, with KA around, they'd do fine. Because Terrans engage properly now, use EMPs properly, get adequate ghosts. Blizzard failed this period, they should have let KA play out, they never even saw it in action against a REAL-Terran of today (ala MMA, MvP, etc).
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On November 05 2011 01:16 Logros wrote:
I actually haven't seen any games where KA was so OP, especially against Terran. Yes it's strong but without it Protoss has really been struggling.
Exactly, no one saw KA as completly OP back then, because it wasn't, Colossus was the issue. Even with KA still in effect, Terran still win easily, back then T just didn't use many ghosts, everyone saw. As soon as Koreans implemented more T rates have skyrocketed. Putting KA back in still wouldn't balance Terran agains Toss, as blizzard said they are the most complete race.
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On November 05 2011 04:15 Shaok wrote:
Khaydarin amulet was really good for the top level players. The problem was with the lower leagues having a huge difficulty moving units out of storms the instant someone warped a templar in.
Yeah I know, balancing the game among the lower leagues is ridiculous.
This is honestly what I think they did it for. Which makes me... very unhappy to say the least.
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On November 05 2011 05:24 RemrafGrez wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 04:15 Shaok wrote:
Khaydarin amulet was really good for the top level players. The problem was with the lower leagues having a huge difficulty moving units out of storms the instant someone warped a templar in.
Yeah I know, balancing the game among the lower leagues is ridiculous. This is honestly what I think they did it for. Which makes me... very unhappy to say the least.
Laugh out loud, actually that seems a bit plausible, but I don't think they did it because of that. Did Blizzard assume no one was going to get better at unit control/microing? Skill across leagues have gone up, pretty hard to dispute. (cept GM luls) Reminds me of the argument Storm can kill "50 MM units!!!!!" and "EMP kills nothing." I wish my storm could kill 50MM units lol, which they do only when a Terran stands under it for the full duration while macroing or some shit lol what kind of argument is that Terrans, try harder.
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On November 05 2011 04:46 kyarisan wrote:
I don't think that KA needs to return, but templars definitely need to be a bit more capable in rough, particularly scrappy situations. They need a movement buff or a weak attack or SOMETHING. I would be happy with either a return to the walking speed of 2.25 (zealot, colossus, sentry etc) OR a small attack. Ghosts can cloak, they keep pace with unstimmed bio, and they can attack, or snipe while cloaked assuming there's enough energy (and in HoTS, cloak wont deplete energy so it will be easier to snipe while cloaked). Infestors can burrow-move and they can also launch infested terrans to buy time or defend themselves.
HT are just absolutely HELPLESS alone, they have absolutely no option to defend themselves from ANYTHING. Imagine seeing 2 HT roam the map trying to find something to feedback. It's never EVER going to happen, yet you have almost every tvp, tvz, zvp, zvz, and zvt where cloaked ghosts or burrowed infestors are making a move on the map, alone, landing key game changing spells.
You can't call it "racial diversity" when its nothing more than a direct weakness, and Blizzard cannot balance a game unit-for-unit, by food cost, DPS, build time, etc (as they are doing) without giving similar options to all races.
This I hope noone will try to argue with. HT need some love to be more usable and more fun. Simple as that. Speed to 2.25 or something is critical at this juncture if KA is never to see the light of day again.
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God forbid protoss gets something that might actually help defend 1-1-1
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KA removal was good because it was rather abusive, but I don't get why they didn't compensate for HTs afterwards. I mean, why keep the storm upgrade? Infestors and ghosts don't need emp or fungal upgrade.
Also, could you imagine warping in storm drops with the new warp prism with KA? Jesus.
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On November 05 2011 04:16 Grampz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 03:34 jinorazi wrote:On November 05 2011 03:24 Grampz wrote:
I've said this before, and it is too damn powerful for THIS game. WARP in with WARP PRISM BUFF is TOO strong. if it was implemented again, now that people use warp prism, you could warp in a storm in your opponents mineral line whenever u want. lolz~! dude, how do you play this game? are you also worried about burrowed infestors? dt rushes? cloack banshee? i dont know what games you've been playing but storm drops have been around for almost a decade in THIS(starcraft) game. you idiot, i'm not saying it hasn't been done before, but it would take 0 SKILL to do it.
firstly, fuck you for the "idiot" comment. secondly, what do you exactly mean by zero skill because i dont see the relation between drop and skill. drops can be stopped if they're seen by any race and attempting a drop is similar throughout all races.
if you're talking about potential damage by ht warp in storms, how is that different than just dropping templars already with energy? are you saying dropping templars take more skills than warping in templars? or there's more risk if ht's are loaded on the prism, and therefore that equates to more skill?
and do tell what you mean by "whenever" and how is that different than any other type of drops?
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I am wondering why there is so much whine about TvP. We are in EU / NA right? Am I the only one who doesn't see terrans dominating here? EU and NA have 50 terrans in GM this season. Both protoss and zergs win tournaments. I really don't see a problem. In Korea there might be a small problem, but only in the GSL code S imo. Grandmaster korea has around 70 terrans, so that doesn't point towards imbalance. I see protoss and zerg players winning tournaments in korea.
When we look at sc2ranks, we see the next stats:
EU
Grandmaster:
- Protoss 32.5% (64)
- Terran 24.4% (48)
- Zerg 43.1% (85)
Master:
- Protoss 34.7% (2,357)
- Terran 27.5% (1,871)
- Zerg 34.1% (2,319)
Korea:
Grandmaster:
- Protoss: 39.5% (75)
- Terran: 35.8% (68)
- Zerg: 24.2% (46)
Master:
- Protoss: 30.8% (684)
- Terran: 36.9% (821)
- Zerg: 27.8% (619)
America:
Grandmaster:
- Protoss: 36.1% (65)
- Terran: 27.8% (50)
- Zerg: 33.3% (60)
Master:
- Protoss: 32.8% (2,868)
- Terran: 27.9% (2,439)
- Zerg: 34.9% (3,051)
Then we look at tournaments across the globe: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues
This is BEFORE the next patch (aka the emp nerf).
Conclusion: I really don't get this "TERRAN IS IMBALANCED WE NEED MORE PROTOSS BUFFS BLIZZARD".
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as a protoss player, and regardless of balance, i found the removal of KA made using hts way more fun. Before they were more or less expendable in the late game, now u actaully have to control them. That said, when u compare the pros and cons of ghosts vs hts it becomes pretty clear which side has the advantage.
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I have been a proponent of giving the HT something to make up for the complete removal. (well first I wanted them just to reduce the amount of +energy) But a few things that I think would really help out:
HT movement speed increase.
No research for storm. Every other caster comes with 2 spells without research. Why the hell does our HT (which is already the shittiest) only come with 1?
Just enough HP to not die so quickly to snipe. Snipe out ranges feedback and with the slow movement speed it is way too easy for terrans to snipe any HT that a protoss player moves into position.
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On November 05 2011 06:33 Snowbear wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I am wondering why there is so much whine about TvP. We are in EU / NA right? Am I the only one who doesn't see terrans dominating here? EU and NA have 50 terrans in GM this season. Both protoss and zergs win tournaments. I really don't see a problem. In Korea there might be a small problem, but only in the GSL code S imo. Grandmaster korea has around 70 terrans, so that doesn't point towards imbalance. I see protoss and zerg players winning tournaments in korea. When we look at sc2ranks, we see the next stats: EU Grandmaster: - Protoss 32.5% (64) - Terran 24.4% (48) - Zerg 43.1% (85) Master: - Protoss 34.7% (2,357) - Terran 27.5% (1,871) - Zerg 34.1% (2,319) Korea: Grandmaster: - Protoss: 39.5% (75)- Terran: 35.8% (68) - Zerg: 24.2% (46) Master: - Protoss: 30.8% (684) - Terran: 36.9% (821)- Zerg: 27.8% (619) America: Grandmaster: - Protoss: 36.1% (65)- Terran: 27.8% (50) - Zerg: 33.3% (60) Master: - Protoss: 32.8% (2,868) - Terran: 27.9% (2,439) - Zerg: 34.9% (3,051)Then we look at tournaments across the globe: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leaguesThis is BEFORE the next patch (aka the emp nerf). Conclusion: I really don't get this "TERRAN IS IMBALANCED WE NEED MORE PROTOSS BUFFS BLIZZARD".
You should read this, maybe it can help you to clear your mind.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=272754
This numbers are significant.
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EPT
