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Look at that T go after KA removal. Good job Blizzard, KA was screwing over Terrans for sure. Lol, how can ANY of you Terrans deny it screwed P over.
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Undeniable: Outside of Korea we have seen no sign of terran imba. Where are the eu & american T tournament victories? Select won the blizzard invitational america recently. What else?
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those graphs, if anything shows that ZvT needs to be fixed. Biggest w/l difference at ~17%
edit: herp derp
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On November 05 2011 07:46 me_viet wrote:
those graphs, if anything shows that ZvT needs to be fixed. Biggest w/l difference at ~17%
edit: herp derp
Ya. But if anything, those graphs shows that the game may be balanced at lower levels (plat, diam, master) but at higher levels (gm/pros/korea), the game is not even close to be balanced : (
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On November 04 2011 23:53 ZeromuS wrote:
Im not sure if KA made for a more balanced game but it presents us with a BW situation. Where one thing is really strong for one race the other race has a similarly strong spell/thing which provided for very very interesting back and forth situations.
I used to liken KA to a planetary fortress. If you are going to attack my base you damn well better know it and be prepared for an attack - not just sending small numbers of units.
Except that protoss was more near 50% W:L with it (not over either, under) and once it was taken away it went down and down?
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On November 05 2011 07:14 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 06:33 Snowbear wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I am wondering why there is so much whine about TvP. We are in EU / NA right? Am I the only one who doesn't see terrans dominating here? EU and NA have 50 terrans in GM this season. Both protoss and zergs win tournaments. I really don't see a problem. In Korea there might be a small problem, but only in the GSL code S imo. Grandmaster korea has around 70 terrans, so that doesn't point towards imbalance. I see protoss and zerg players winning tournaments in korea. When we look at sc2ranks, we see the next stats: EU Grandmaster: - Protoss 32.5% (64) - Terran 24.4% (48) - Zerg 43.1% (85) Master: - Protoss 34.7% (2,357) - Terran 27.5% (1,871) - Zerg 34.1% (2,319) Korea: Grandmaster: - Protoss: 39.5% (75)- Terran: 35.8% (68) - Zerg: 24.2% (46) Master: - Protoss: 30.8% (684) - Terran: 36.9% (821)- Zerg: 27.8% (619) America: Grandmaster: - Protoss: 36.1% (65)- Terran: 27.8% (50) - Zerg: 33.3% (60) Master: - Protoss: 32.8% (2,868) - Terran: 27.9% (2,439) - Zerg: 34.9% (3,051)Then we look at tournaments across the globe: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leaguesThis is BEFORE the next patch (aka the emp nerf). Conclusion: I really don't get this "TERRAN IS IMBALANCED WE NEED MORE PROTOSS BUFFS BLIZZARD". You should read this, maybe it can help you to clear your mind. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=272754This numbers are significant.
These stats are fishy as hell. Everyone who follows the tournaments knows that terrans are not dominating. There is only 1 tournament where terrans dominate and that is code S GSL. Why do we see these graphs? Look around you, check the tournaments, see it with your own eyes.
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On November 05 2011 07:55 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 07:46 me_viet wrote:
those graphs, if anything shows that ZvT needs to be fixed. Biggest w/l difference at ~17%
edit: herp derp Ya. But if anything, those graphs shows that the game may be balanced at lower levels (plat, diam, master) but at higher levels (gm/pros/korea), the game is not even close to be balanced : (
Check my ladder stats. The game is pretty much balanced in gm / master.
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I think that it can be agreed that the only MU where KA made a difference was PvT. This means that bringing it back would only really have balance repercussions in PvT.
Back when it was removed, ghosts were almost non-existent in PvT, possibly because of their old cost (150/150), but also because terrans didn't really know how to use them.
Now, with the increased ghost usage, I don't think that KA would be overpowered for several reasons:
1. With ghosts being able to be made in greater numbers due to their cost, there should always be some remaining after a large engagement, meaning that P can't just use infinite HTs since they can be sniped/EMPed whilst warping.
2. Having to spend 150 gas per storm would mean that the P would have an almost exclusively zealot/archon/HT army. This can be seen in the original San vs sC game. Dealing with such a rigid composition should be fairly straight forwards for any player, regardless of race. (Theory craft: mass hellions?)
3. Although warp-in storms were powerful drop defence, it cost 150 gas per storm, with about 3 storms needed to clean-up a drop normally. This is far more expensive than a planetary or spines/spores, especially for the gas dependent protoss army.
4. Warp-in storms were sometimes used for harass of worker lines. However in the vast majority of these cases the damage was only done because the defender didn't move their workers, or didn't respond to the red dot on their minimap fast enough. Again, this also cost 150 gas per storm, whereas a baneling drop (which can chase workers) costs 100 gas, and hellions cost no gas (and can also chase workers).
TL;DR: The only reason that KA was powerful was because opponents dealt with HTs badly.
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On November 05 2011 07:59 CortoMontez wrote:
TL;DR: The only reason that KA was powerful was because opponents dealt with HTs badly.
It's funny you say that, you and everyone else going on about how the only reason KA was to powerful was because the opponents weren't fighting it properly.
What is your stance on ghosts and EMP?
Do you see where I'm going with this?
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On November 05 2011 07:57 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 07:14 Belha wrote:On November 05 2011 06:33 Snowbear wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I am wondering why there is so much whine about TvP. We are in EU / NA right? Am I the only one who doesn't see terrans dominating here? EU and NA have 50 terrans in GM this season. Both protoss and zergs win tournaments. I really don't see a problem. In Korea there might be a small problem, but only in the GSL code S imo. Grandmaster korea has around 70 terrans, so that doesn't point towards imbalance. I see protoss and zerg players winning tournaments in korea. When we look at sc2ranks, we see the next stats: EU Grandmaster: - Protoss 32.5% (64) - Terran 24.4% (48) - Zerg 43.1% (85) Master: - Protoss 34.7% (2,357) - Terran 27.5% (1,871) - Zerg 34.1% (2,319) Korea: Grandmaster: - Protoss: 39.5% (75)- Terran: 35.8% (68) - Zerg: 24.2% (46) Master: - Protoss: 30.8% (684) - Terran: 36.9% (821)- Zerg: 27.8% (619) America: Grandmaster: - Protoss: 36.1% (65)- Terran: 27.8% (50) - Zerg: 33.3% (60) Master: - Protoss: 32.8% (2,868) - Terran: 27.9% (2,439) - Zerg: 34.9% (3,051)Then we look at tournaments across the globe: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leaguesThis is BEFORE the next patch (aka the emp nerf). Conclusion: I really don't get this "TERRAN IS IMBALANCED WE NEED MORE PROTOSS BUFFS BLIZZARD". You should read this, maybe it can help you to clear your mind. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=272754This numbers are significant. These stats are fishy as hell. Everyone who follows the tournaments knows that terrans are not dominating. There is only 1 tournament where terrans dominate and that is code S GSL. Why do we see these graphs? Look around you, check the tournaments, see it with your own eyes.
Have you really watched every single tournament played daily? Every single round? If so, you have a lot more free time than me.
But if the argument is that the game should be balanced at the highest level, then GSL code S having such a dominant Terran presence SHOULD be worrying.
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KA is not coming back, Blizzard already stated it gave protoss way too much AoE when combined with colossi
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On November 05 2011 06:33 Snowbear wrote:I am wondering why there is so much whine about TvP. We are in EU / NA right? Am I the only one who doesn't see terrans dominating here? EU and NA have 50 terrans in GM this season. Both protoss and zergs win tournaments. I really don't see a problem. In Korea there might be a small problem, but only in the GSL code S imo. Grandmaster korea has around 70 terrans, so that doesn't point towards imbalance. I see protoss and zerg players winning tournaments in korea. When we look at sc2ranks, we see the next stats: EU Grandmaster: - Protoss 32.5% (64) - Terran 24.4% (48) - Zerg 43.1% (85) Master: - Protoss 34.7% (2,357) - Terran 27.5% (1,871) - Zerg 34.1% (2,319) Korea: Grandmaster: - Protoss: 39.5% (75)- Terran: 35.8% (68) - Zerg: 24.2% (46) Master: - Protoss: 30.8% (684) - Terran: 36.9% (821)- Zerg: 27.8% (619) America: Grandmaster: - Protoss: 36.1% (65)- Terran: 27.8% (50) - Zerg: 33.3% (60) Master: - Protoss: 32.8% (2,868) - Terran: 27.9% (2,439) - Zerg: 34.9% (3,051)Then we look at tournaments across the globe: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leaguesThis is BEFORE the next patch (aka the emp nerf). Conclusion: I really don't get this "TERRAN IS IMBALANCED WE NEED MORE PROTOSS BUFFS BLIZZARD".
The amount of people in a league has absolutely nothing to do with game balance.
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maybe im being an ignorant terran here, but isn't the problem with late game tvp that i can blanket EMP every single one of your units, not the fact that your Templar don't have the energy to begin with?
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This is just me coming up with an idea off the top of my head, if it's bad I blame it solely on being really tired 
Blizzard could try and add KA back in to the game, and then make it so that HT's are built from the Templar Archives instead of the gateways, that way they would be more in line with how the infestor and ghost are, they could possibly buff feedback as well since snipe/infested terran imo are better
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People act like KA was only useful in TvP...
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warp in storm was, is, and always will be idiotic. Please lock blatant qq thread
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I don't know why there's no discussion about how bad the Korean Protoss play style is. Protoss strength is late game, yet the Korean Protoss are the cheesiest players on the planet. Hongun, Genius, Tassadar, Alicia, even MC at times can't help himself and uses some crappy void-ray or DT garbage. Its a pandemic.
A bunch of upgraded charge-Lots in a Max v Max battle - TvP - is a nightmare. Marauders do nothing vs them, marines die to any Colossus or storm, EMP isn't that effective vs Charge-Lots, and you have to kite your bio from the C-Lots leaving your Vikings to die to any Stalkers/Archons before the Colossus die.
Its so much a pain in the ass Blizzard is introducing a new unit (Battle Hellion) to help this problem specifically. MC demolished MVP in this exact situation on Wednesday night, yet the very next game he All-Inned off of 2 base and got crushed. Go figure.
I'm not saying "Protoss is fine, just play better" - I do believe they have some weaknesses that need to be addressed. KA not one of them. But for #@$^ sake, they can at least stop with the stupid shit and at least try and play to the strength of the race.
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On November 05 2011 08:32 mlspmatt wrote:
I don't know why there's no discussion about how bad the Korean Protoss play style is. Protoss strength is late game, yet the Korean Protoss are the cheesiest players on the planet. Hongun, Genius, Tassadar, Alicia, even MC at times can't help himself and uses some crappy void-ray or DT garbage. Its a pandemic.
A bunch of upgraded charge-Lots in a Max v Max battle - TvP - is a nightmare. Marauders do nothing vs them, marines die to any Colossus or storm, EMP isn't that effective vs Charge-Lots, and you have to kite your bio from the C-Lots leaving your Vikings to die to any Stalkers/Archons before the Colossus die.
Its so much a pain in the ass Blizzard is introducing a new unit (Battle Hellion) to help this problem specifically. MC demolished MVP in this exact situation on Wednesday night, yet the very next game he All-Inned off of 2 base and got crushed. Go figure.
I'm not saying "Protoss is fine, just play better" - I do believe they have some weaknesses that need to be addressed. KA not one of them. But for #@$^ sake, they can at least stop with the stupid shit and at least try and play to the strength of the race.
This is a good point. Can't actually see any korean 'toss that is "macro oriented".The closest one is actually HuK, and he's better than all of those (atm).
But I still think HT are underpowered compared to the other races casters. A usability buff would be enough I think; KA would overpower them again - although it's mostly against Terran so I got no problem with that ;D, but David Kim would
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Completely irrelevant for any imbalance that may or may not exist in the current version of the game - KA was fucking stupid. Warp in storms were retarded, and anyone who couldn't see that simply wanted to have an advantage, not a balanced game.
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On November 05 2011 08:32 mlspmatt wrote:
I don't know why there's no discussion about how bad the Korean Protoss play style is. Protoss strength is late game, yet the Korean Protoss are the cheesiest players on the planet. Hongun, Genius, Tassadar, Alicia, even MC at times can't help himself and uses some crappy void-ray or DT garbage. Its a pandemic.
A bunch of upgraded charge-Lots in a Max v Max battle - TvP - is a nightmare. Marauders do nothing vs them, marines die to any Colossus or storm, EMP isn't that effective vs Charge-Lots, and you have to kite your bio from the C-Lots leaving your Vikings to die to any Stalkers/Archons before the Colossus die.
Its so much a pain in the ass Blizzard is introducing a new unit (Battle Hellion) to help this problem specifically. MC demolished MVP in this exact situation on Wednesday night, yet the very next game he All-Inned off of 2 base and got crushed. Go figure.
I'm not saying "Protoss is fine, just play better" - I do believe they have some weaknesses that need to be addressed. KA not one of them. But for #@$^ sake, they can at least stop with the stupid shit and at least try and play to the strength of the race.
This is one of the most ignorant posts I've ever read on this website, ever. You're trying to act like you understand the game, but clearly, you don't.
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EPT
