EPT[D] KA in PvT then and now- NSHoSeo_san vs MVP_sC - Page 11
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how2TL
1197 Posts
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InFi.asc
Germany518 Posts
On November 05 2011 10:25 eourcs wrote: KA was in no way balanced and i'm not sure where you got the 50% from. I distinctly remember many terrans saying that you couldn't let protoss get templar or else you'd lose (Drewbie said on stream once "hey guys i got a new sick tvp build. What I do is scan every minute and when i see a templar archive, i bring every single scv and allin them". There were many games where a terran would absolutely demolish a protoss army (which in of itself at the time was rare) and protoss would warp in 5 storms and herp derp the terran's army is gone. That doesn't seem like fun to watch. Now that terrans have gotten ridiculously good with ghosts, should the KA be put back in? Definitely not in its previous form, but a +15 energy or faster energy regen would be something neat to try out. As for the people saying that Protosses cheese because that's the only thing viable, that's completely retarded. Do you really think that if "Macro protoss" was buffed (which it doesn't really need to be), people like Hongun, Hwangsin, Genius, and every single other alliny-protosses would suddenly adopt macro play? No, they allin because it's very easy to execute and can easily grant you free-wins which is what you're looking for when you're a bad player. if we want to talk about pro level game balance please do not quote destiny or anyone of that caliber. then i would like to hear which protoss isn't alliny right now in your opinion? aside from that you say that with KA protoss just warped templars in and roflstomped the terran. that's kind of unlikely unless the terran decided to go on a full out attack at the protoss base, you know because HTs are damn slow. so they were used as defensive mechanism. again, I am not saying KA was ok the way it was but your arguing is kinda of imo. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
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Benzzro
Australia167 Posts
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On November 05 2011 01:34 flowSthead wrote: No, he is saying that Protoss defense sucks and that KA adds some needed defense. For example, Protoss is the only race that can actually have their buildings unpowered, as in they can have their buildings not die but still not be able to build anything. KA adds defense to Protoss bases late game. Is adding in KA balanced? I cannot say, but it would not make Protoss invincible. It might make them OP, or it might make them more stable. It also might limit options if it forces Protoss to go Templar every game, but who knows? The game was different when it was taken away. There have been a lot of changes and it is difficult to tel what would happen if they re-introduced it. It's a moot point though since they definitely will not bring it back. And that's the problem. KA doesn't add defense. It adds offense. If KA could somehow be magically worked to be a defensive-only ability relating to templar then it might be alright, but due to the warpgate mechanics, it was just too easy to get templar instantly to the exact right place on the map as and when they were required. KA wasn't defensive, it was whatever it needed to be, and gave you an instant storm where you wanted. If you think Protoss needs some kind of defensive buff, then KA will never be it. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On November 05 2011 10:15 InFi.asc wrote: i kind of agree with you. that is what would happen. the reality is a little different though, i think. i remember MC trying to play macro games against terrans, see the finals NASL and IEM against Puma and he got utterly destroyed despite of playing better (imo). the trend is last month(s) has been back from macro games to gimmicky timing attacks because macro games failed protoss so hard. edit: btw, I am not saying KA was fine the way it was! I really think it's a matter of having that fall-back mindset. Back in the dark days of SCV pulls, we had a few Terrans try macro games and get mild, if not abysmal, results. The metagame revolved around Terrans really driving hard stim, seige, and banshee timing pushes. Luckily, it was a very systematic and discrete process, allowing Terrans to adapt slowly and not fall out of the scene. 1-1-1 is almost a window into that past, except the macro metagame had evolved as the fall-back. It's reverse for Protoss right now. KA wouldn't fix that, nor would endgame buffs. The only way to highlight any REAL endgame problems would be to remove all effective early game fall-backs, like was done to Terran. I personally don't prefer that approach, but I retain my belief that is the only way to be remotely certain of endgame weaknesses. | ||
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Shebuha
Canada1335 Posts
I'd really like to see a KA still in the game, but instead of: +25 starting energy, cost 150/150 It could be: +15 starting energy, cost 100/100 or 125/125 KA was a great upgrade and idea in general. I like that it made the game last longer, because if Terran beat your army in a big fight you could still hang on because of KA. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
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kYem
United Kingdom412 Posts
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eourcs
United States459 Posts
On November 05 2011 10:31 InFi.asc wrote: if we want to talk about pro level game balance please do not quote destiny or anyone of that caliber. aside from that you say that with KA protoss just warped templars in and roflstomped the terran. that's kind of unlikely unless the terran decided to go on a full out attack at the protoss base, you know because HTs are damn slow. so they were used as defensive mechanism. then i would like to hear which protoss isn't alliny right now in your opinion Drewbie at the time was quite good. He wasn't tip-top, but reasonably good. I also don't really trust korean balance opinions because things can be lost in translation and koreans like to stir up drama :p. The problem was that let's say a terran won a battle very decisively. There's two things he can do, mass expand or attack. Mass expand works because the terran has a huge army lead so protoss can't do anything about it. However, you can mass expand when you're both maxed and sitting around and armies die so fast in 200/200 engagements that having 6 bases instead of 4 doesn't really matter until bases start mining out. So really, counter-attacking should be the most ideal option, because you can take advantage Of your army lead to deny bases, but you couldn't do that because of KA. So really, you basically could only sit there, letting the protoss remax and you rinse-repeat until some guy bashes their way to victory. Tl;dr. protoss could fuck up majorly, and terran couldn't do anything about it. I haven't watched enough gsl recently but sage,jyp, and oz have looked solid and played smart in the games that i've seen. Hero plays well too, some of his tactics could be gimmicky but really, what is considered gimmicky now could be considered completely standard later on. Huk has great micro, but sometimes can be too agressive at times that he shouldn't be. | ||
mlspmatt
Canada404 Posts
On November 05 2011 10:25 eourcs wrote: KA was in no way balanced and i'm not sure where you got the 50% from. I distinctly remember many terrans saying that you couldn't let protoss get templar or else you'd lose (Drewbie said on stream once "hey guys i got a new sick tvp build. What I do is scan every minute and when i see a templar archive, i bring every single scv and allin them". There were many games where a terran would absolutely demolish a protoss army (which in of itself at the time was rare) and protoss would warp in 5 storms and herp derp the terran's army is gone. That doesn't seem like fun to watch. Now that terrans have gotten ridiculously good with ghosts, should the KA be put back in? Definitely not in its previous form, but a +15 energy or faster energy regen would be something neat to try out. As for the people saying that Protosses cheese because that's the only thing viable, that's completely retarded. Do you really think that if "Macro protoss" was buffed (which it doesn't really need to be), people like Hongun, Hwangsin, Genius, and every single other alliny-protosses would suddenly adopt macro play? No, they allin because it's very easy to execute and can easily grant you free-wins which is what you're looking for when you're a bad player. Amen. | ||
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flowSthead
1065 Posts
On November 05 2011 10:51 Lonyo wrote: And that's the problem. KA doesn't add defense. It adds offense. If KA could somehow be magically worked to be a defensive-only ability relating to templar then it might be alright, but due to the warpgate mechanics, it was just too easy to get templar instantly to the exact right place on the map as and when they were required. KA wasn't defensive, it was whatever it needed to be, and gave you an instant storm where you wanted. If you think Protoss needs some kind of defensive buff, then KA will never be it. Yes, KA does add some to offense since you can reinforce with KAed High Templar, but in the majority of situations KA added defense. Dropped by Terran? KAed Templar for defense. Terran/Zerg attacking your 3rd/fourth? KAed Templar for defense. It was for the majority of the time a defensive ability, since it comes so late game. You are extremely unlikely to have a hidden pylon in your base in late game when you get KA, so offensively it can only work as a reinforcement. Like I said, it might be OP as offense/defense, or it might not. But it certainly added a lot to defense and I don't think you can argue that it did not. | ||
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koolaid1990
831 Posts
On November 05 2011 08:46 Dalavita wrote: Code S had a shitty tournament structure that didn't allow for a lot of change. Add to that terran stability, early dominance during the beginnings of SC2 and simply more and/or better players and you have a recipe for GomTvT. Guess what. In a couple of months the "protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out" is going to be a myth, just the same way. It's called metagame. its called "patches". | ||
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GhostFall
United States830 Posts
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere. Take for example EMP. Blizzard waited for MONTHS. MONTHS of waiting to see Protoss players find a solution on their own or do things differently. Waited until there were only 5 Protoss left in the GSL Code S. Now finally they're nerfing EMP to 1.5 radius. With KA, there was never any waiting. KA strategies were literally only being used for about 1 month. Terrans never adapted, the metagame never shifted. It was just flat out removed. Why didn't Blizzard ever wait for Terrans to try out counter strategies in TvP? Why didn't Blizzard wait until there were only 5 Terrans left in Code S before removing KA? This is why Protoss players are so bitter about KA. Because it never had a chance to be explored. Do you wanna know how many Terran still were in Code S when KA was removed? 14/32. More than Protoss. More than Zerg. More than a 1/3rd If KA was kept, and it turned out to be OP, Protoss would not be asking for KA as much as they are now. But as it is, we'll never know. | ||
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deadmau
960 Posts
On November 05 2011 11:49 GhostFall wrote: One of the reasons Protoss players really dislike removing KA was there literally was no time for Terrans to adapt. Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere. Take for example EMP. Blizzard waited for MONTHS. MONTHS of waiting to see Protoss players find a solution on their own or do things differently. Waited until there were only 5 Protoss left in the GSL Code S. Now finally they're nerfing EMP to 1.5 radius. With KA, there was never any waiting. KA strategies were literally only being used for about 1 month. Terrans never adapted, the metagame never shifted. It was just flat out removed. Why didn't Blizzard ever wait for Terrans to try out counter strategies in TvP? Why didn't Blizzard wait until there were only 5 Terrans left in Code S before removing KA? This is why Protoss players are so bitter about KA. Because it never had a chance to be explored. Do you wanna know how many Terran still were in Code S when KA was removed? 14/32. More than Protoss. More than Zerg. More than a 1/3rd If KA was kept, and it turned out to be OP, Protoss would not be asking for KA as much as they are now. But as it is, we'll never know. Never, explored. Just flat out removed, sentiments of all Protoss. | ||
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
On November 05 2011 10:25 eourcs wrote: KA was in no way balanced and i'm not sure where you got the 50% from. I distinctly remember many terrans saying that you couldn't let protoss get templar or else you'd lose (Drewbie said on stream once "hey guys i got a new sick tvp build. What I do is scan every minute and when i see a templar archive, i bring every single scv and allin them". There were many games where a terran would absolutely demolish a protoss army (which in of itself at the time was rare) and protoss would warp in 5 storms and herp derp the terran's army is gone. That doesn't seem like fun to watch. Now that terrans have gotten ridiculously good with ghosts, should the KA be put back in? Definitely not in its previous form, but a +15 energy or faster energy regen would be something neat to try out. As for the people saying that Protosses cheese because that's the only thing viable, that's completely retarded. Do you really think that if "Macro protoss" was buffed (which it doesn't really need to be), people like Hongun, Hwangsin, Genius, and every single other alliny-protosses would suddenly adopt macro play? No, they allin because it's very easy to execute and can easily grant you free-wins which is what you're looking for when you're a bad player. The numbers are from this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=272754 it's not biased towards any race, either. though some may disagree, but they are only disagreeing because it doesn't uphold their position on the balance of the game. thus proving that KA made the game more balanced (damn near it too) in both matchups and once it was taken away (march) toss became much more shitty. there was never a such a thing that it was impossible to win vs toss. | ||
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Benzzro
Australia167 Posts
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deadmau
960 Posts
On November 05 2011 12:15 Benzzro wrote: Team Liquid - The place bronze players discuss balance. Benzzro - Silver player specializing in overgeneralizing. | ||
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Benzzro
Australia167 Posts
On November 05 2011 12:23 deadmau wrote: Benzzro - Silver player specializing in overgeneralizing. Calling someone a silver player when they just dissed all the noobs on TL, damn near perfect assumption my friend, | ||
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Ryder.
1117 Posts
On November 05 2011 00:50 Noocta wrote: Stop with KA seriously. Warp a templar, wait for energy to storm = produce a ghost/ infestor with energy upgrade It's the SAME TIME. I think the main concern is that they balanced HT around having this upgrade, and then they just removed it without doing anything to compensate. If they had originally designed SC2 and HT without having KA, maybe things would have been different, maybe they would have increased the HT movement speed? Part of the reason I think HT were made to be so slow was because of KA and being able to have useful templar anywhere on the map. Would be nice if they made HT a little faster (2.25) so they weren't so clumsy and annoying to use offensively. On November 05 2011 10:25 eourcs wrote: As for the people saying that Protosses cheese because that's the only thing viable, that's completely retarded. Do you really think that if "Macro protoss" was buffed (which it doesn't really need to be), people like Hongun, Hwangsin, Genius, and every single other alliny-protosses would suddenly adopt macro play? No, they allin because it's very easy to execute and can easily grant you free-wins which is what you're looking for when you're a bad player. Whoops my bad, I was under the illusion pro-players who play this game for a living will do whatever they think has the best chance of winning so you know, they can actually make a living. I didn't realize that they only all-inned because it required less effort. I guess they don't care about winning or money or success, as long as they can avoid evil macro games like the plague they are happy! | ||
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