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On November 05 2011 12:06 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 10:25 eourcs wrote:On November 05 2011 08:43 koolaid1990 wrote:
blizzard was stupid. The game was balanced with KA. Toss was near 50% winrate, games were 10x much more fun to watch with all the constant back and forth type action. drops are way to devastating to toss these days. Even when KA was in, the first 2 gsl champions were zerg, and protoss were struggling in the GSL until MC came in, and even then most of his games won were really strong cheeses.
After they took out KA, they had ALL sorts of balanced problems, protoss winrates dropped hard in korea. KA was in no way balanced and i'm not sure where you got the 50% from. I distinctly remember many terrans saying that you couldn't let protoss get templar or else you'd lose (Drewbie said on stream once "hey guys i got a new sick tvp build. What I do is scan every minute and when i see a templar archive, i bring every single scv and allin them". There were many games where a terran would absolutely demolish a protoss army (which in of itself at the time was rare) and protoss would warp in 5 storms and herp derp the terran's army is gone. That doesn't seem like fun to watch. Now that terrans have gotten ridiculously good with ghosts, should the KA be put back in? Definitely not in its previous form, but a +15 energy or faster energy regen would be something neat to try out. As for the people saying that Protosses cheese because that's the only thing viable, that's completely retarded. Do you really think that if "Macro protoss" was buffed (which it doesn't really need to be), people like Hongun, Hwangsin, Genius, and every single other alliny-protosses would suddenly adopt macro play? No, they allin because it's very easy to execute and can easily grant you free-wins which is what you're looking for when you're a bad player. The numbers are from this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=272754it's not biased towards any race, either. though some may disagree, but they are only disagreeing because it doesn't uphold their position on the balance of the game. thus proving that KA made the game more balanced (damn near it too) in both matchups and once it was taken away (march) toss became much more shitty. there was never a such a thing that it was impossible to win vs toss.
That's why the most balanced window was in June, 2-3 months after the KA nerf. Makes PERFECT sense that KA was the glue holding everything together! It's so obvious now!
Never mind that those graphs do nothing to filter out cases of skill gaps skewing results, like Korean (mainly Terran) participation in MLG and other open Western tournaments. Even then, however, there is no way to make solid qualitative judgments about (im)balanced aspects of any race based on those quantitative numbers. The only reasonable conclusion you can make is that Protoss performed worse than the other 2 races in the same conditions. The data in no way even suggests KA removal tilted Protoss winrates in one way or another.
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On November 05 2011 12:28 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 00:50 Noocta wrote:
Stop with KA seriously.
Warp a templar, wait for energy to storm = produce a ghost/ infestor with energy upgrade
It's the SAME TIME. I think the main concern is that they balanced HT around having this upgrade, and then they just removed it without doing anything to compensate. If they had originally designed SC2 and HT without having KA, maybe things would have been different, maybe they would have increased the HT movement speed? Part of the reason I think HT were made to be so slow was because of KA and being able to have useful templar anywhere on the map. Would be nice if they made HT a little faster (2.25) so they weren't so clumsy and annoying to use offensively.
Or maybe they designed KA around the fact that every other significant caster has a +25 energy upgrade. That would make the most sense from a development standpoint.
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On November 05 2011 12:24 Benzzro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 12:23 deadmau wrote:On November 05 2011 12:15 Benzzro wrote:
Team Liquid - The place bronze players discuss balance. Benzzro - Silver player specializing in overgeneralizing. Calling someone a silver player when they just dissed all the noobs on TL, damn near perfect assumption my friend,
I was making an overly ignorant comment based on your overly generalized statement. And no you dissed everyone on TL, not just the "noobs." Get off your high horse.
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When you kill every ghost or he runs out of energy, you can't do anything as a reaction. With KA, you could warp in templars that have storm and actually make use of the fact that he as no ghosts.
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On November 05 2011 12:41 deadmau wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 12:24 Benzzro wrote:On November 05 2011 12:23 deadmau wrote:On November 05 2011 12:15 Benzzro wrote:
Team Liquid - The place bronze players discuss balance. Benzzro - Silver player specializing in overgeneralizing. Calling someone a silver player when they just dissed all the noobs on TL, damn near perfect assumption my friend, I was making an overly ignorant comment based on your overly generalized statement. And no you dissed everyone on TL, not just the "noobs." Get off your high horse.
But most of the posts in this thread are written by people obviously in low leagues that don't have the game knowledge to construct a legitimate post, yet they do anyway, no? Sorry if saying something hurts your feelings, truth hurts sometimes.
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On November 05 2011 12:36 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 12:06 Silidons wrote:On November 05 2011 10:25 eourcs wrote:On November 05 2011 08:43 koolaid1990 wrote:
blizzard was stupid. The game was balanced with KA. Toss was near 50% winrate, games were 10x much more fun to watch with all the constant back and forth type action. drops are way to devastating to toss these days. Even when KA was in, the first 2 gsl champions were zerg, and protoss were struggling in the GSL until MC came in, and even then most of his games won were really strong cheeses.
After they took out KA, they had ALL sorts of balanced problems, protoss winrates dropped hard in korea. KA was in no way balanced and i'm not sure where you got the 50% from. I distinctly remember many terrans saying that you couldn't let protoss get templar or else you'd lose (Drewbie said on stream once "hey guys i got a new sick tvp build. What I do is scan every minute and when i see a templar archive, i bring every single scv and allin them". There were many games where a terran would absolutely demolish a protoss army (which in of itself at the time was rare) and protoss would warp in 5 storms and herp derp the terran's army is gone. That doesn't seem like fun to watch. Now that terrans have gotten ridiculously good with ghosts, should the KA be put back in? Definitely not in its previous form, but a +15 energy or faster energy regen would be something neat to try out. As for the people saying that Protosses cheese because that's the only thing viable, that's completely retarded. Do you really think that if "Macro protoss" was buffed (which it doesn't really need to be), people like Hongun, Hwangsin, Genius, and every single other alliny-protosses would suddenly adopt macro play? No, they allin because it's very easy to execute and can easily grant you free-wins which is what you're looking for when you're a bad player. The numbers are from this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=272754it's not biased towards any race, either. though some may disagree, but they are only disagreeing because it doesn't uphold their position on the balance of the game. thus proving that KA made the game more balanced (damn near it too) in both matchups and once it was taken away (march) toss became much more shitty. there was never a such a thing that it was impossible to win vs toss. That's why the most balanced window was in June, 2-3 months after the KA nerf. Makes PERFECT sense that KA was the glue holding everything together! It's so obvious now! Never mind that those graphs do nothing to filter out cases of skill gaps skewing results, like Korean (mainly Terran) participation in MLG and other open Western tournaments. Even then, however, there is no way to make solid qualitative judgments about (im)balanced aspects of any race based on those quantitative numbers. The only reasonable conclusion you can make is that Protoss performed worse than the other 2 races in the same conditions. The data in no way even suggests KA removal tilted Protoss winrates in one way or another.
Not sure what type of curve your seeing, but protoss did better in 1 month out of 7 since the removal of KA. do you see the downward curve my friend? or are you that delusional?
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On November 05 2011 12:57 Benzzro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 05 2011 12:41 deadmau wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 12:24 Benzzro wrote:On November 05 2011 12:23 deadmau wrote:On November 05 2011 12:15 Benzzro wrote:
Team Liquid - The place bronze players discuss balance. Benzzro - Silver player specializing in overgeneralizing. Calling someone a silver player when they just dissed all the noobs on TL, damn near perfect assumption my friend, I was making an overly ignorant comment based on your overly generalized statement. And no you dissed everyone on TL, not just the "noobs." Get off your high horse. But most of the posts in this thread are written by people obviously in low leagues that don't have the game knowledge to construct a legitimate post, yet they do anyway, no? Sorry if saying something hurts your feelings, truth hurts sometimes.
Haha no worries, Silvers don't hurt my feelings.
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It seemed like KA was removed because it allowed Protoss to often remain in games where they were losing/had lost major engagements. Similar to how Dustin Browder said Zerg need a better method for winning a game they are way ahead in the event of the Terran turtling hard... sometimes balance isn't in terms of gaining an advantage, but rather using your advantage to actually win the game. KA was stopping Terrans from using their advantages to win the game.
An early Alicia game in the GSL on Shakuras had Alicia using KA to perfection; except in a realistic view Alicia was just getting destroyed all game in every engagement but afterwards would be able to warp in HTs and destroy all the remaining Bio/Storm drop the mineral lines. It made for an exciting game and great drama, but it was the first time it clicked for me that the KA was too strong. It was a brilliant use of KA but I've never been surprised that post the KA nerf Alicia has struggled to remain relevant.
Just looking at winrates of the races isn't specific enough to examine the balance of KA. Races can lose but have particular spells be unbalanced; it is possible the rest of the Protoss arsenal was so weak that it allowed Terrans to over-compensate and protect themselves specifically against HTs in a manner that let Terrans win >50% of games.
What would the solution to that be? Strengthen the rest of the Protoss arsenal, and nerf HTs. Blizzard has done exactly this.
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KA was broken plane and simple. It let protoss creep back into games with cannons + warp in templar and you basically could'nt do anything. You would kill an entire toss army and then 2 temps would warp in and rape your shit. There was basically no way to attack past a certain point in the game.
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On a balance note, it should make sense that if Ghosts are beating HTs too easily, it is possible that the reason is that Colossus are too weak. When looking at how two sides are balanced you have to look at the whole arsenal. Maybe currently its just too easy for Terrans to focus on Ghost production. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, but taking a wide view of how all units interact is how you have to look at the game.
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We will never truly know if KA was overpowered or balanced in PvT. This is because at the time, tosses were using HTs, but terrans were just starting to utilize ghosts when KA was taken out. We never really got to see how superb ghost micro would play out against KA.
I mean think about it this way. What if terrans had started using ghosts before protosses had tried HTs? Blizzard very well might have taken out ghosts' energy upgrade instead, and then spent the rest of their days trying to buff terran and nerf toss to get the matchup back to 50/50.
I think the reason that HTs were used before ghosts was because the main function of HTs remained the same from BW, whereas the role of the ghost in BW was very different. That familiarity may have been played the biggest part in HTs eventually losing KA.
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On November 05 2011 13:16 Dante_A_ wrote:
It seemed like KA was removed because it allowed Protoss to often remain in games where they were losing/had lost major engagements. Similar to how Dustin Browder said Zerg need a better method for winning a game they are way ahead in the event of the Terran turtling hard... sometimes balance isn't in terms of gaining an advantage, but rather using your advantage to actually win the game. KA was stopping Terrans from using their advantages to win the game.
An early Alicia game in the GSL on Shakuras had Alicia using KA to perfection; except in a realistic view Alicia was just getting destroyed all game in every engagement but afterwards would be able to warp in HTs and destroy all the remaining Bio/Storm drop the mineral lines. It made for an exciting game and great drama, but it was the first time it clicked for me that the KA was too strong. It was a brilliant use of KA but I've never been surprised that post the KA nerf Alicia has struggled to remain relevant.
Just looking at winrates of the races isn't specific enough to examine the balance of KA. Races can lose but have particular spells be unbalanced; it is possible the rest of the Protoss arsenal was so weak that it allowed Terrans to over-compensate and protect themselves specifically against HTs in a manner that let Terrans win >50% of games.
What would the solution to that be? Strengthen the rest of the Protoss arsenal, and nerf HTs. Blizzard has done exactly this.
The issue is that it is too easy for Terran to gain said advantage because Protoss has NO cost effective counters to drop outside of just being godly with their observer/watch tower control, which never happens because Protoss is always on the defensive until they can get a huge 150+ deathball going.
KA was the only thing preventing from Terran leveraging their ridiculous early/mid game advantage with early Bio pressure/drops into an insurmountable advantage. Right now, it is IMPOSSIBLE to secure 3rd/4th bases on most maps because it is too easy to lose that extended base to literally one drop. Just look at NASL recently with White-Ra and Puma. White-Ra was SO FAR AHEAD the entire time, had built up his advantage through ridiculous level of play, and still lost a game because Puma managed to sneak ONE drop into White-Ra's base. White-Ra had literally no units that could stop it, because Marines/Medivac is obscenely cost effective to the point that it is retarded beyond reason. I don't care what you say; White-Ra should NOT have lost that game simply because of one drop. If KA still existed in the game, he would have massacred that drop and would have won the series 2-0 easily, instead of having to severely outplay Puma again in G3 only to barely win because EMPs are currently obscenely ridiculous against Protoss deathballs.
Blizzard strengthened the rest of the Protoss arsenal? How? If anything all Blizzard has done is completely fucked the balance of the game by changing Protoss.
1) Void Ray rework that turned them from timing attack into deathball syndrome units. This sent ZvP into a MASSIVE spiral of idiotic deathball turtling that was terrible for the game, and was literally some of the most imbalanced shit I have ever seen. Why was the Void Ray reworked/changed? Because Maka and a few other Terrans were complaining to Blizzard that a strategy that recently popped up for a total of a WEEK was suddenly broken/unstoppable/unbeatable. This is a well documented case that anyone can atest to. VR change was done because a few Terran pros/high level players (who are now bottom echelon pros now) wanted to play super greedy and 1-1-1 while expanding off of it (which was at the time what almost every Terran pro did in TvP).
2) As a result of Void Ray/Colossus/Stalker deathballs that became prominent after allowing Void Rays to do extra to massive (thus nullifying Brood Lord/Ultra armies late game), Blizzard had to respond by making Infestors way better, when they were already good. What happened? The infestor became one of the most broken units in the game ever. Not a single professional player on this forum will tell you that Infestors after their buff were balanced. You had Z players literally massing nothing but Infestors and just smashing armies left and right. It was absolutely ridiculous. All of this stemmed from the idiotic Void Ray change.
3) Protoss removal of Khydarian Amulet, which was a result of Terran outcries for literally a MONTH because they were actually losing for once. If you don't believe me, look at the statistics prior to April/March, where Terran literally dominated Protoss in tournament play for 6 months straight. There was not a single outcry about KA prior to those months; look at the TL archives, B.net Archives, etc. etc. etc. However, when Blizzard announced that they were removing KA, all of a sudden you had a bunch of Terran players whining about KA simply out of the blue.
4) As a result of KA removal, Protoss has simply plummeted because of their inability to properly defend extended bases away from their main. Terran drops are insanely cost effective, and have far too much punch behind them, and Protoss has literally 0 ways to cost effectively defend them other than getting lucky with observers and catching them with feedbacks. Look at the months after the KA removal. Terran domination of Protoss is even worse after the removal of KA then it was during the beginning of retail (when no one used HTs, instead were spamming Colossus). 3 months have shown win percentages of almost 60% or more. Prior to KA removal, Terran was still winning, but not by that much. It's pretty obvious that the removal of KA has SIGNIFICANTLY affected the balance of TvP by a wide margin.
On November 05 2011 13:24 Sadist wrote:
KA was broken plane and simple. It let protoss creep back into games with cannons + warp in templar and you basically could'nt do anything. You would kill an entire toss army and then 2 temps would warp in and rape your shit. There was basically no way to attack past a certain point in the game.
KA was broken when the Protoss is sitting on massive amounts of gas, in which case you were likely doing something wrong. I know you are an excellent player Sadist, way better than I am, but even you should know that if the Protoss has enough gas to CONSTANTLY spam Templars the entire game, then you likely deserved to lose the game. This is especially true considering Terran has so many ways to force cost inefficient trades with Protoss through Maurader kiting/drops/EMP.
On November 05 2011 12:36 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 12:06 Silidons wrote:On November 05 2011 10:25 eourcs wrote:On November 05 2011 08:43 koolaid1990 wrote:
blizzard was stupid. The game was balanced with KA. Toss was near 50% winrate, games were 10x much more fun to watch with all the constant back and forth type action. drops are way to devastating to toss these days. Even when KA was in, the first 2 gsl champions were zerg, and protoss were struggling in the GSL until MC came in, and even then most of his games won were really strong cheeses.
After they took out KA, they had ALL sorts of balanced problems, protoss winrates dropped hard in korea. KA was in no way balanced and i'm not sure where you got the 50% from. I distinctly remember many terrans saying that you couldn't let protoss get templar or else you'd lose (Drewbie said on stream once "hey guys i got a new sick tvp build. What I do is scan every minute and when i see a templar archive, i bring every single scv and allin them". There were many games where a terran would absolutely demolish a protoss army (which in of itself at the time was rare) and protoss would warp in 5 storms and herp derp the terran's army is gone. That doesn't seem like fun to watch. Now that terrans have gotten ridiculously good with ghosts, should the KA be put back in? Definitely not in its previous form, but a +15 energy or faster energy regen would be something neat to try out. As for the people saying that Protosses cheese because that's the only thing viable, that's completely retarded. Do you really think that if "Macro protoss" was buffed (which it doesn't really need to be), people like Hongun, Hwangsin, Genius, and every single other alliny-protosses would suddenly adopt macro play? No, they allin because it's very easy to execute and can easily grant you free-wins which is what you're looking for when you're a bad player. The numbers are from this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=272754it's not biased towards any race, either. though some may disagree, but they are only disagreeing because it doesn't uphold their position on the balance of the game. thus proving that KA made the game more balanced (damn near it too) in both matchups and once it was taken away (march) toss became much more shitty. there was never a such a thing that it was impossible to win vs toss. That's why the most balanced window was in June, 2-3 months after the KA nerf. Makes PERFECT sense that KA was the glue holding everything together! It's so obvious now! Never mind that those graphs do nothing to filter out cases of skill gaps skewing results, like Korean (mainly Terran) participation in MLG and other open Western tournaments. Even then, however, there is no way to make solid qualitative judgments about (im)balanced aspects of any race based on those quantitative numbers. The only reasonable conclusion you can make is that Protoss performed worse than the other 2 races in the same conditions. The data in no way even suggests KA removal tilted Protoss winrates in one way or another.
How nice of you to clearly overlook the fact that Protoss win percentage vs T immediately dropped and has continued to drop after the removal of KA.
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On November 05 2011 13:45 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 13:16 Dante_A_ wrote:
It seemed like KA was removed because it allowed Protoss to often remain in games where they were losing/had lost major engagements. Similar to how Dustin Browder said Zerg need a better method for winning a game they are way ahead in the event of the Terran turtling hard... sometimes balance isn't in terms of gaining an advantage, but rather using your advantage to actually win the game. KA was stopping Terrans from using their advantages to win the game.
An early Alicia game in the GSL on Shakuras had Alicia using KA to perfection; except in a realistic view Alicia was just getting destroyed all game in every engagement but afterwards would be able to warp in HTs and destroy all the remaining Bio/Storm drop the mineral lines. It made for an exciting game and great drama, but it was the first time it clicked for me that the KA was too strong. It was a brilliant use of KA but I've never been surprised that post the KA nerf Alicia has struggled to remain relevant.
Just looking at winrates of the races isn't specific enough to examine the balance of KA. Races can lose but have particular spells be unbalanced; it is possible the rest of the Protoss arsenal was so weak that it allowed Terrans to over-compensate and protect themselves specifically against HTs in a manner that let Terrans win >50% of games.
What would the solution to that be? Strengthen the rest of the Protoss arsenal, and nerf HTs. Blizzard has done exactly this. The issue is that it is too easy for Terran to gain said advantage because Protoss has NO cost effective counters to drop outside of just being godly with their observer/watch tower control, which never happens because Protoss is always on the defensive until they can get a huge 150+ deathball going. KA was the only thing preventing from Terran leveraging their ridiculous early/mid game advantage with early Bio pressure/drops into an insurmountable advantage. Right now, it is IMPOSSIBLE to secure 3rd/4th bases on most maps because it is too easy to lose that extended base to literally one drop. Just look at NASL recently with White-Ra and Puma. White-Ra was SO FAR AHEAD the entire time, had built up his advantage through ridiculous level of play, and still lost a game because Puma managed to sneak ONE drop into White-Ra's base. White-Ra had literally no units that could stop it, because Marines/Medivac is obscenely cost effective to the point that it is retarded beyond reason. I don't care what you say; White-Ra should NOT have lost that game simply because of one drop. If KA still existed in the game, he would have massacred that drop and would have won the series 2-0 easily, instead of having to severely outplay Puma again in G3 only to barely win because EMPs are currently obscenely ridiculous against Protoss deathballs. Blizzard strengthened the rest of the Protoss arsenal? How? If anything all Blizzard has done is completely fucked the balance of the game by changing Protoss. 1) Void Ray rework that turned them from timing attack into deathball syndrome units. This sent ZvP into a MASSIVE spiral of idiotic deathball turtling that was terrible for the game, and was literally some of the most imbalanced shit I have ever seen. Why was the Void Ray reworked/changed? Because Maka and a few other Terrans were complaining to Blizzard that a strategy that recently popped up for a total of a WEEK was suddenly broken/unstoppable/unbeatable. This is a well documented case that anyone can atest to. VR change was done because a few Terran pros/high level players (who are now bottom echelon pros now) wanted to play super greedy and 1-1-1 while expanding off of it (which was at the time what almost every Terran pro did in TvP). 2) As a result of Void Ray/Colossus/Stalker deathballs that became prominent after allowing Void Rays to do extra to massive (thus nullifying Brood Lord/Ultra armies late game), Blizzard had to respond by making Infestors way better, when they were already good. What happened? The infestor became one of the most broken units in the game ever. Not a single professional player on this forum will tell you that Infestors after their buff were balanced. You had Z players literally massing nothing but Infestors and just smashing armies left and right. It was absolutely ridiculous. All of this stemmed from the idiotic Void Ray change. 3) Protoss removal of Khydarian Amulet, which was a result of Terran outcries for literally a MONTH because they were actually losing for once. If you don't believe me, look at the statistics prior to April/March, where Terran literally dominated Protoss in tournament play for 6 months straight. There was not a single outcry about KA prior to those months; look at the TL archives, B.net Archives, etc. etc. etc. However, when Blizzard announced that they were removing KA, all of a sudden you had a bunch of Terran players whining about KA simply out of the blue. 4) As a result of KA removal, Protoss has simply plummeted because of their inability to properly defend extended bases away from their main. Terran drops are insanely cost effective, and have far too much punch behind them, and Protoss has literally 0 ways to cost effectively defend them other than getting lucky with observers and catching them with feedbacks. Look at the months after the KA removal. Terran domination of Protoss is even worse after the removal of KA then it was during the beginning of retail (when no one used HTs, instead were spamming Colossus). 3 months have shown win percentages of almost 60% or more. Prior to KA removal, Terran was still winning, but not by that much. It's pretty obvious that the removal of KA has SIGNIFICANTLY affected the balance of TvP by a wide margin. Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 13:24 Sadist wrote:
KA was broken plane and simple. It let protoss creep back into games with cannons + warp in templar and you basically could'nt do anything. You would kill an entire toss army and then 2 temps would warp in and rape your shit. There was basically no way to attack past a certain point in the game. KA was broken when the Protoss is sitting on massive amounts of gas, in which case you were likely doing something wrong. I know you are an excellent player Sadist, way better than I am, but even you should know that if the Protoss has enough gas to CONSTANTLY spam Templars the entire game, then you likely deserved to lose the game. This is especially true considering Terran has so many ways to force cost inefficient trades with Protoss through Maurader kiting/drops/EMP. Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 12:36 aksfjh wrote:On November 05 2011 12:06 Silidons wrote:On November 05 2011 10:25 eourcs wrote:On November 05 2011 08:43 koolaid1990 wrote:
blizzard was stupid. The game was balanced with KA. Toss was near 50% winrate, games were 10x much more fun to watch with all the constant back and forth type action. drops are way to devastating to toss these days. Even when KA was in, the first 2 gsl champions were zerg, and protoss were struggling in the GSL until MC came in, and even then most of his games won were really strong cheeses.
After they took out KA, they had ALL sorts of balanced problems, protoss winrates dropped hard in korea. KA was in no way balanced and i'm not sure where you got the 50% from. I distinctly remember many terrans saying that you couldn't let protoss get templar or else you'd lose (Drewbie said on stream once "hey guys i got a new sick tvp build. What I do is scan every minute and when i see a templar archive, i bring every single scv and allin them". There were many games where a terran would absolutely demolish a protoss army (which in of itself at the time was rare) and protoss would warp in 5 storms and herp derp the terran's army is gone. That doesn't seem like fun to watch. Now that terrans have gotten ridiculously good with ghosts, should the KA be put back in? Definitely not in its previous form, but a +15 energy or faster energy regen would be something neat to try out. As for the people saying that Protosses cheese because that's the only thing viable, that's completely retarded. Do you really think that if "Macro protoss" was buffed (which it doesn't really need to be), people like Hongun, Hwangsin, Genius, and every single other alliny-protosses would suddenly adopt macro play? No, they allin because it's very easy to execute and can easily grant you free-wins which is what you're looking for when you're a bad player. The numbers are from this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=272754it's not biased towards any race, either. though some may disagree, but they are only disagreeing because it doesn't uphold their position on the balance of the game. thus proving that KA made the game more balanced (damn near it too) in both matchups and once it was taken away (march) toss became much more shitty. there was never a such a thing that it was impossible to win vs toss. That's why the most balanced window was in June, 2-3 months after the KA nerf. Makes PERFECT sense that KA was the glue holding everything together! It's so obvious now! Never mind that those graphs do nothing to filter out cases of skill gaps skewing results, like Korean (mainly Terran) participation in MLG and other open Western tournaments. Even then, however, there is no way to make solid qualitative judgments about (im)balanced aspects of any race based on those quantitative numbers. The only reasonable conclusion you can make is that Protoss performed worse than the other 2 races in the same conditions. The data in no way even suggests KA removal tilted Protoss winrates in one way or another. How nice of you to clearly overlook the fact that Protoss win percentage vs T immediately dropped and has continued to drop after the removal of KA.
Well put and my assumptions as well...
IMO -> It's not protoss QQ because it's not impossible to win its just simply harder to win as protoss atm with our strats against theirs balance or no balance. If KA was the cause then a lot of game research should be done, but i honestly think it started before that with how gateway units and barracks units work cost efficiency wise.
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On November 05 2011 11:49 GhostFall wrote:
One of the reasons Protoss players really dislike removing KA was there literally was no time for Terrans to adapt.
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Take for example EMP. Blizzard waited for MONTHS. MONTHS of waiting to see Protoss players find a solution on their own or do things differently. Waited until there were only 5 Protoss left in the GSL Code S. Now finally they're nerfing EMP to 1.5 radius.
With KA, there was never any waiting. KA strategies were literally only being used for about 1 month. Terrans never adapted, the metagame never shifted. It was just flat out removed. Why didn't Blizzard ever wait for Terrans to try out counter strategies in TvP? Why didn't Blizzard wait until there were only 5 Terrans left in Code S before removing KA? This is why Protoss players are so bitter about KA. Because it never had a chance to be explored. Do you wanna know how many Terran still were in Code S when KA was removed? 14/32. More than Protoss. More than Zerg. More than a 1/3rd
If KA was kept, and it turned out to be OP, Protoss would not be asking for KA as much as they are now. But as it is, we'll never know.
Thanks for that post.
I almost cried.
So beautiful.
I am serious 
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If KA actually allowed protoss to come back from a severe deficit, wouldn't that just make the HT a 150gas mule?
On a more serious note, KA will probably never return, since Blizz stated that they are making no massive changes before HoTS, and in HoTS there are new harassment and defensive options added to protoss.
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On November 05 2011 11:49 GhostFall wrote:
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Tanks are rarely used in TvP outside of some well known All-Ins, and some seldom used Mech-oriented strategies.
I'd argue that the Tank was balanced for TvT and TvZ. And it is from this that it has become very hard for most players to use them effectively in TvP.
So many Protoss units counter Tanks and they often become more detrimental to your own units than the oppositions. Beefy Chargelots taking Tank shots like they were nothing, causing huge splash damage to your own forces.
Stalkers blinking on top of Terran's units and letting the Siege Splash wreck their Bio, or forcing Unsieges.
Immortals.
There's many reasons why we don't see Tanks often in TvP.
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On November 05 2011 14:32 CortoMontez wrote:
If KA actually allowed protoss to come back from a severe deficit, wouldn't that just make the HT a 150gas mule?
On a more serious note, KA will probably never return, since Blizz stated that they are making no massive changes before HoTS, and in HoTS there are new harassment and defensive options added to protoss.
That and the fact that Browder said in interview that KA was something they now considered to have been obviously wrong in the first place and a stupid inclusion at release.
It's sad: it suggests an attitude that they're not willing to reconsider past changes based on newer developments. Supterstartran gave an excellent example above of the sort of thing that can lead to.
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KA was ridiculously over powered under the GM level, instant warp ins to deal with MM? Nerfing EMP in the next patch is the right choice
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On November 05 2011 14:57 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 11:49 GhostFall wrote:
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Tanks are rarely used in TvP outside of some well known All-Ins, and some seldom used Mech-oriented strategies. I'd argue that the Tank was balanced for TvT and TvZ. And it is from this that it has become very hard for most players to use them effectively in TvP. So many Protoss units counter Tanks and they often become more detrimental to your own units than the oppositions. Beefy Chargelots taking Tank shots like they were nothing, causing huge splash damage to your own forces. Stalkers blinking on top of Terran's units and letting the Siege Splash wreck their Bio, or forcing Unsieges. Immortals. There's many reasons why we don't see Tanks often in TvP.
I didn't say tanks. I said mech. Hellions/Thors/Tanks. And there's absolutely no way for you to say Mech doesn't work against Protoss who went KA. There's also absolutely no way for me to say Mech does work against Protoss who went KA. It's all theorycraft because no one had a chance to do anything about it. No one had a chance to use mech against KA. No one is using mech now, because why use mech when bio is just clearly better because KA doesn't exist anymore? But we can say, that statistically that Protoss is not a balanced matchup against Terran. We can say that EMP should get nerfed to 1.5 radius. Why? Because we have 7 months of data. So why don't we have 7 months of data on KA? Why was it removed so quickly?
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KA was ridiculously broken. Take a step back and look at it objectively.
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EPT
