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On November 05 2011 15:04 GhostFall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 14:57 Eps wrote:On November 05 2011 11:49 GhostFall wrote:
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Tanks are rarely used in TvP outside of some well known All-Ins, and some seldom used Mech-oriented strategies. I'd argue that the Tank was balanced for TvT and TvZ. And it is from this that it has become very hard for most players to use them effectively in TvP. So many Protoss units counter Tanks and they often become more detrimental to your own units than the oppositions. Beefy Chargelots taking Tank shots like they were nothing, causing huge splash damage to your own forces. Stalkers blinking on top of Terran's units and letting the Siege Splash wreck their Bio, or forcing Unsieges. Immortals. There's many reasons why we don't see Tanks often in TvP. I didn't say tanks. I said mech. Hellions/Thors/Tanks. And there's absolutely no way for you to say Mech doesn't work against Protoss who went KA. There's also absolutely no way for me to say Mech does work against Protoss who went KA. It's all theorycraft because no one had a chance to do anything about it. No one had a chance to use mech against KA. No one is using mech now, because why use mech when bio is just clearly better because KA doesn't exist anymore? But we can say, that statistically that Protoss is not a balanced matchup against Terran. We can say that EMP should get nerfed to 1.5 radius. Why? Because we have 7 months of data. So why don't we have 7 months of data on KA? Why was it removed so quickly?
You really think instant warp in with storm is balanced? Hi look, a 4k terran MMM army that just finished a fight and is in orange/yellow/red, let's just warp in 5 templars and look at that army fall to 0... It was close to impossible to push after winning a huge fight in TvP if the protoss had templar tech back in the days. Had to wait for ghosts
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i think the KA removal has more implications in pvz. Mutas were manageable when you could warp in and storm, but now I feel they are really hard to deal with. Infestors and ghosts > hts :/
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On November 05 2011 15:05 oxxo wrote:
KA was ridiculously broken. Take a step back and look at it objectively.
Ok. Objectively. No bias. Just pure statistics. The purest objective measure we got is statistics.
KA was removed at the end of march.
The winrates for TvP in Korean tournaments was 51.5% for the Terran and 48.5% for the Protoss.
At the time there were 14 Terrans/9 Protoss/9 Zerg in Code S.
After KA was removed.
The winrate for TvP in Korean tournaments favored Terran up to 61.2% to 38.8% for Protoss.
It is now currently 57.7% in favor of Terran to 42.3% for Protoss
Currently, there are 19 Terrans/ 5 Protoss/ 7 Zerg in Code S.
Immortals have been increased to 6 range.
Emp will be changed to 1.5
Tell me how else can I objectively look at it? This is just pure statistics. No bias. I am just telling you the numbers.
Edit - This is a serious question. I am not asking flippantly. How else can I look at it objectively?
Edit #2:
I'll also look at it objectively from the Zerg side.
Before KA removal
The winrates for ZvP in Korean tournaments was 55.8% for the Protoss and 44.2% for the Zerg.
After KA removal:
Currently the winrate for ZvP in Korean tournaments is 59.2% for the Zerg and 40.8% for the Protoss.
Zerg has recieved a Fungal buff in damage, nerf in duration, buff in ability to stop stalkers from blinking.
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On November 05 2011 15:11 Bro_Stone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 15:04 GhostFall wrote:On November 05 2011 14:57 Eps wrote:On November 05 2011 11:49 GhostFall wrote:
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Tanks are rarely used in TvP outside of some well known All-Ins, and some seldom used Mech-oriented strategies. I'd argue that the Tank was balanced for TvT and TvZ. And it is from this that it has become very hard for most players to use them effectively in TvP. So many Protoss units counter Tanks and they often become more detrimental to your own units than the oppositions. Beefy Chargelots taking Tank shots like they were nothing, causing huge splash damage to your own forces. Stalkers blinking on top of Terran's units and letting the Siege Splash wreck their Bio, or forcing Unsieges. Immortals. There's many reasons why we don't see Tanks often in TvP. I didn't say tanks. I said mech. Hellions/Thors/Tanks. And there's absolutely no way for you to say Mech doesn't work against Protoss who went KA. There's also absolutely no way for me to say Mech does work against Protoss who went KA. It's all theorycraft because no one had a chance to do anything about it. No one had a chance to use mech against KA. No one is using mech now, because why use mech when bio is just clearly better because KA doesn't exist anymore? But we can say, that statistically that Protoss is not a balanced matchup against Terran. We can say that EMP should get nerfed to 1.5 radius. Why? Because we have 7 months of data. So why don't we have 7 months of data on KA? Why was it removed so quickly? You really think instant warp in with storm is balanced? Hi look, a 4k terran MMM army that just finished a fight and is in orange/yellow/red, let's just warp in 5 templars and look at that army fall to 0... It was close to impossible to push after winning a huge fight in TvP if the protoss had templar tech back in the days. Had to wait for ghosts
I don't think instant warp in with storm is balanced. I don't think instant warp in storm is overpowered either. I am saying there was no data backing up either conclusion. And before any data was gathered, it was removed. Why? EMP only got changed after 7 months of data. That is the much more correct way of balancing things. So why was KA removed after 1 month?
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On November 05 2011 15:13 GhostFall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 15:11 Bro_Stone wrote:On November 05 2011 15:04 GhostFall wrote:On November 05 2011 14:57 Eps wrote:On November 05 2011 11:49 GhostFall wrote:
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Tanks are rarely used in TvP outside of some well known All-Ins, and some seldom used Mech-oriented strategies. I'd argue that the Tank was balanced for TvT and TvZ. And it is from this that it has become very hard for most players to use them effectively in TvP. So many Protoss units counter Tanks and they often become more detrimental to your own units than the oppositions. Beefy Chargelots taking Tank shots like they were nothing, causing huge splash damage to your own forces. Stalkers blinking on top of Terran's units and letting the Siege Splash wreck their Bio, or forcing Unsieges. Immortals. There's many reasons why we don't see Tanks often in TvP. I didn't say tanks. I said mech. Hellions/Thors/Tanks. And there's absolutely no way for you to say Mech doesn't work against Protoss who went KA. There's also absolutely no way for me to say Mech does work against Protoss who went KA. It's all theorycraft because no one had a chance to do anything about it. No one had a chance to use mech against KA. No one is using mech now, because why use mech when bio is just clearly better because KA doesn't exist anymore? But we can say, that statistically that Protoss is not a balanced matchup against Terran. We can say that EMP should get nerfed to 1.5 radius. Why? Because we have 7 months of data. So why don't we have 7 months of data on KA? Why was it removed so quickly? You really think instant warp in with storm is balanced? Hi look, a 4k terran MMM army that just finished a fight and is in orange/yellow/red, let's just warp in 5 templars and look at that army fall to 0... It was close to impossible to push after winning a huge fight in TvP if the protoss had templar tech back in the days. Had to wait for ghosts I don't think instant warp in with storm is balanced. I don't think instant warp in storm is overpowered either. I am saying there was no data backing up either conclusion. And before any data was gathered, it was removed. Why? EMP only got changed after 7 months of data. That is the much more correct way of balancing things. So why was KA removed after 1 month?
I'm not trying to be snarky here but wasn't KA removed after the 1.3 patch was implemented? That was live in March, 2011. SCII came out in July, 2010. That was 8 months, not the 1 month you're claiming.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2514162
As for your arguments on KA. Nothing has changed for Storms at all in the game. The spell itself has been left the same. The only thing that has changed now is that Protoss requires a bit more foresight and planning when using HighTemplars for Storms.
You're talking as if KA was an entire tech path, unit-composition or strategy.
Also in your example. You said "See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere."
Meaning Tanks.
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giving protoss KA again would be nice, PvT would prob be 50/50
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On November 05 2011 15:38 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 15:13 GhostFall wrote:On November 05 2011 15:11 Bro_Stone wrote:On November 05 2011 15:04 GhostFall wrote:On November 05 2011 14:57 Eps wrote:On November 05 2011 11:49 GhostFall wrote:
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Tanks are rarely used in TvP outside of some well known All-Ins, and some seldom used Mech-oriented strategies. I'd argue that the Tank was balanced for TvT and TvZ. And it is from this that it has become very hard for most players to use them effectively in TvP. So many Protoss units counter Tanks and they often become more detrimental to your own units than the oppositions. Beefy Chargelots taking Tank shots like they were nothing, causing huge splash damage to your own forces. Stalkers blinking on top of Terran's units and letting the Siege Splash wreck their Bio, or forcing Unsieges. Immortals. There's many reasons why we don't see Tanks often in TvP. I didn't say tanks. I said mech. Hellions/Thors/Tanks. And there's absolutely no way for you to say Mech doesn't work against Protoss who went KA. There's also absolutely no way for me to say Mech does work against Protoss who went KA. It's all theorycraft because no one had a chance to do anything about it. No one had a chance to use mech against KA. No one is using mech now, because why use mech when bio is just clearly better because KA doesn't exist anymore? But we can say, that statistically that Protoss is not a balanced matchup against Terran. We can say that EMP should get nerfed to 1.5 radius. Why? Because we have 7 months of data. So why don't we have 7 months of data on KA? Why was it removed so quickly? You really think instant warp in with storm is balanced? Hi look, a 4k terran MMM army that just finished a fight and is in orange/yellow/red, let's just warp in 5 templars and look at that army fall to 0... It was close to impossible to push after winning a huge fight in TvP if the protoss had templar tech back in the days. Had to wait for ghosts I don't think instant warp in with storm is balanced. I don't think instant warp in storm is overpowered either. I am saying there was no data backing up either conclusion. And before any data was gathered, it was removed. Why? EMP only got changed after 7 months of data. That is the much more correct way of balancing things. So why was KA removed after 1 month? I'm not trying to be snarky here but wasn't KA removed after the 1.3 patch was implemented? That was live in March, 2011. SCII came out in July, 2010. That was 8 months, not the 1 month you're claiming.
It was in the game since launch. But the first time we saw heavily based KA strategies in GSL was 1 month before it was removed. KA was researched of course, but the first time we saw strategies based around getting KA was approximately 1 month before. This was because Collosus strategies completely dominated and overshadowed KA strategies. It is similiar to how we only started to see Infestor strategies a couple months after the "deathball months" because roach/hydra/corruptor was the current dominant strategy. Finding good viable strategies take a long time. That's why it is important to spend time on big changes like nerfing EMP or something like removing an upgrade.
Edit: I am also incorrect in saying we have 7 months of data on EMP. We have about 4-5 months of data for EMP, because heavy ghost strategies only started appearing in tournaments around that time.
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On November 05 2011 15:42 GhostFall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 15:38 Eps wrote:On November 05 2011 15:13 GhostFall wrote:On November 05 2011 15:11 Bro_Stone wrote:On November 05 2011 15:04 GhostFall wrote:On November 05 2011 14:57 Eps wrote:On November 05 2011 11:49 GhostFall wrote:
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Tanks are rarely used in TvP outside of some well known All-Ins, and some seldom used Mech-oriented strategies. I'd argue that the Tank was balanced for TvT and TvZ. And it is from this that it has become very hard for most players to use them effectively in TvP. So many Protoss units counter Tanks and they often become more detrimental to your own units than the oppositions. Beefy Chargelots taking Tank shots like they were nothing, causing huge splash damage to your own forces. Stalkers blinking on top of Terran's units and letting the Siege Splash wreck their Bio, or forcing Unsieges. Immortals. There's many reasons why we don't see Tanks often in TvP. I didn't say tanks. I said mech. Hellions/Thors/Tanks. And there's absolutely no way for you to say Mech doesn't work against Protoss who went KA. There's also absolutely no way for me to say Mech does work against Protoss who went KA. It's all theorycraft because no one had a chance to do anything about it. No one had a chance to use mech against KA. No one is using mech now, because why use mech when bio is just clearly better because KA doesn't exist anymore? But we can say, that statistically that Protoss is not a balanced matchup against Terran. We can say that EMP should get nerfed to 1.5 radius. Why? Because we have 7 months of data. So why don't we have 7 months of data on KA? Why was it removed so quickly? You really think instant warp in with storm is balanced? Hi look, a 4k terran MMM army that just finished a fight and is in orange/yellow/red, let's just warp in 5 templars and look at that army fall to 0... It was close to impossible to push after winning a huge fight in TvP if the protoss had templar tech back in the days. Had to wait for ghosts I don't think instant warp in with storm is balanced. I don't think instant warp in storm is overpowered either. I am saying there was no data backing up either conclusion. And before any data was gathered, it was removed. Why? EMP only got changed after 7 months of data. That is the much more correct way of balancing things. So why was KA removed after 1 month? I'm not trying to be snarky here but wasn't KA removed after the 1.3 patch was implemented? That was live in March, 2011. SCII came out in July, 2010. That was 8 months, not the 1 month you're claiming. It was in the game since launch. But the first time we heavily based KA strategies in GSL was 1 month before it was removed. KA was researched of course, but the first time we saw strategies based around getting KA was approximately 1 month before. This was because Collosus strategies completely dominated and overshadowed KA strategies.
Seeing as David Kim has said that he doesn't keep up with GSL that much, we can't say that Blizzard only took 1 month in analyzing the data when they're looking at BNet info.
And again as posted in my edit, the only KA strategy you can really refer to is Storm Drops. Other than that, Psi-Storms have remained the same. Nothing has changed with the spell itself, just how fast you can get it. Now it just requires Protoss to have some more foresight and prepare beforehand.
There was something off with Protoss players being able to fly an empty low-risk Mineral only Transport, and then warp in 2 Templars when they hit the Mineral lines.
KA just didn't fit in well with the Warp-In mechanic.
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This is just my opinion, but I don't believe looking at data that isn't from the top level of competition is worth factoring into balance.
I mean it is important to look at lower levels to double check stuff isn't blowing up. And to make sure something isn't ridiculously hard to do. But overall, I don't see much point at looking at Bnet info.
Just my opinion tho.
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Seeing protoss win games solely on the fact that they could warp in multiple HT's with storm was pretty stupid if you ask me. You'd see a Terran win numerous big fights in the late game yet the protoss couldn't be touched because of mass zealot/HT warp-ins that would keep the game alive when in reality it shouldn't have.
I'd be more than happy to see KA back if they tuned the upgrade so that warp-in storms weren't available straight off the bat but possibly so that it's a cheaper upgrade with a smaller return. I'm sure that'd help protoss greatly without making them far too strong and it'd strengthen them in the current state where they're a bit too weak vs Terran.
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The problem for Blizzard was not statistics or winrates, I believe, it was more of a design thing. They don't want warp in storms in their games, balanced or not, as well as they don't want mass thors in TvP, balanced or not. So they nerf and they try to buff other things (well they did that too late, Protoss is now pratically extinct in GSL).
As a protoss player, I think that it kinda killed the High templar compared to beastly infestors and godly ghosts. Honestly, nerfing KA to +15 or even +10 would have been fine instead of +25, I don't know why they removed it altogether. They should buff other things on the HT, like speed, range, storm radius or something, it's clearly the weakest caster.
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If it was a design decision I can understand that. If they don't want to see warp-in storms balanced or not, then it achieved that effect.
But in terms of balance there were so many things that could be done. I liked incontrol's suggestion on sotg once, "When high templar warp in, have storm have a cooldown so you couldn't storm immediately, but you still had the energy."
Of course he then said, "Blizzard is never going to put that in the game because I came up with it."
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From reading many of the replies, it seems that one of the main reasons that people are claiming that KA was OP is because it could beat bio cost-efficiently in combination with zealots. This suggests that rather than KA being imbalanced, it simply means that against a protoss going HT zealot, the terran will need to make... hellions!
Warp-in storms are hardly useful against a unit which can dodge them so easily, and hellions roast the entire HT/zealot composition.
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On November 05 2011 13:36 Fig wrote:
We will never truly know if KA was overpowered or balanced in PvT. This is because at the time, tosses were using HTs, but terrans were just starting to utilize ghosts when KA was taken out. We never really got to see how superb ghost micro would play out against KA.
I mean think about it this way. What if terrans had started using ghosts before protosses had tried HTs? Blizzard very well might have taken out ghosts' energy upgrade instead, and then spent the rest of their days trying to buff terran and nerf toss to get the matchup back to 50/50.
I think the reason that HTs were used before ghosts was because the main function of HTs remained the same from BW, whereas the role of the ghost in BW was very different. That familiarity may have been played the biggest part in HTs eventually losing KA. This sums up my thoughts perfectly. I was one of the early adopters of KA, and yes, it felt kinda broken, but it was the only cost effective way to deal with 2 medivac drops in the midgame, because 8 marauders destroy any composition of a midgame warp in (6-8 gates) of gateway units built if microed and are guaranteed damage whether the Protoss scouts it or not since they can snipe buildings so fast. Near the end of KA being used, I did start to see Terrans actually using ghosts to deal with Templar and it worked insanely well but we never got to play with the matchup enough to see if it solved the issue. And then after the patch most Terrans just went blind vikings because they new we had no AoE options other than colossus.
It's so frustrating how Blizzard says they need to take their time with dealing with the 1/1/1 and ghosts, when they outright removed so many options for Protoss a year ago without even seeing what would happen with the metagame and left us with so few options.
I'd rather they got rid of warpgate and made gateway units cost effective, which would also allow KA back.
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On November 05 2011 15:11 Bro_Stone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 15:04 GhostFall wrote:On November 05 2011 14:57 Eps wrote:On November 05 2011 11:49 GhostFall wrote:
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Tanks are rarely used in TvP outside of some well known All-Ins, and some seldom used Mech-oriented strategies. I'd argue that the Tank was balanced for TvT and TvZ. And it is from this that it has become very hard for most players to use them effectively in TvP. So many Protoss units counter Tanks and they often become more detrimental to your own units than the oppositions. Beefy Chargelots taking Tank shots like they were nothing, causing huge splash damage to your own forces. Stalkers blinking on top of Terran's units and letting the Siege Splash wreck their Bio, or forcing Unsieges. Immortals. There's many reasons why we don't see Tanks often in TvP. I didn't say tanks. I said mech. Hellions/Thors/Tanks. And there's absolutely no way for you to say Mech doesn't work against Protoss who went KA. There's also absolutely no way for me to say Mech does work against Protoss who went KA. It's all theorycraft because no one had a chance to do anything about it. No one had a chance to use mech against KA. No one is using mech now, because why use mech when bio is just clearly better because KA doesn't exist anymore? But we can say, that statistically that Protoss is not a balanced matchup against Terran. We can say that EMP should get nerfed to 1.5 radius. Why? Because we have 7 months of data. So why don't we have 7 months of data on KA? Why was it removed so quickly? You really think instant warp in with storm is balanced? Hi look, a 4k terran MMM army that just finished a fight and is in orange/yellow/red, let's just warp in 5 templars and look at that army fall to 0... It was close to impossible to push after winning a huge fight in TvP if the protoss had templar tech back in the days. Had to wait for ghosts
Come on, that is not an argument. It is the same as me saying that "LOL that MMM army will still be in green if they just EMP'd. With EMP Protoss loses 50% of their units' health instantly and can't cast spells either, storm just does damage, how's that for balance?"
On November 05 2011 16:01 CortoMontez wrote:
From reading many of the replies, it seems that one of the main reasons that people are claiming that KA was OP is because it could beat bio cost-efficiently in combination with zealots. This suggests that rather than KA being imbalanced, it simply means that against a protoss going HT zealot, the terran will need to make... battle hellions!
Warp-in storms are hardly useful against a unit which can dodge them so easily, and hellions roast the entire HT/zealot composition.
Fix'd ur post 
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On November 05 2011 15:12 GhostFall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 15:05 oxxo wrote:
KA was ridiculously broken. Take a step back and look at it objectively. Ok. Objectively. No bias. Just pure statistics. The purest objective measure we got is statistics. KA was removed at the end of march. The winrates for TvP in Korean tournaments was 51.5% for the Terran and 48.5% for the Protoss. At the time there were 14 Terrans/9 Protoss/9 Zerg in Code S. After KA was removed. The winrate for TvP in Korean tournaments favored Terran up to 61.2% to 38.8% for Protoss. It is now currently 57.7% in favor of Terran to 42.3% for Protoss Currently, there are 19 Terrans/ 5 Protoss/ 7 Zerg in Code S. Immortals have been increased to 6 range. Emp will be changed to 1.5 Tell me how else can I objectively look at it? This is just pure statistics. No bias. I am just telling you the numbers. Edit - This is a serious question. I am not asking flippantly. How else can I look at it objectively? Edit #2: I'll also look at it objectively from the Zerg side. Before KA removal The winrates for ZvP in Korean tournaments was 55.8% for the Protoss and 44.2% for the Zerg. After KA removal: Currently the winrate for ZvP in Korean tournaments is 59.2% for the Zerg and 40.8% for the Protoss. Zerg has recieved a Fungal buff in damage, nerf in duration, buff in ability to stop stalkers from blinking.
There's nothing objective about using limited data.
Despite the common Protoss rhetoric GSL is not the only tournament out there and believe it or not, Protoss actually fare very well outside of the GSL.
Of course when Huk wins MLG every Protoss on SotG immediately claims it has nothing to do with the race and everything to do with the player. Yet when Genius, San, MC and Anypro bomb out of Code S through awful, terrible play it's somehow not the singer but the song.
P.S. Heck, Protoss even does well in Code A. They just get (rightfully) eliminated from Code S and all of a sudden Tosses think they have a right to complain about the removal of blindingly-obviously broken spells.
KA was the closest SC2 ever got to an instant win button. Of course it was nerfed.
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On November 05 2011 16:22 _Search_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 15:12 GhostFall wrote:On November 05 2011 15:05 oxxo wrote:
KA was ridiculously broken. Take a step back and look at it objectively. Ok. Objectively. No bias. Just pure statistics. The purest objective measure we got is statistics. KA was removed at the end of march. The winrates for TvP in Korean tournaments was 51.5% for the Terran and 48.5% for the Protoss. At the time there were 14 Terrans/9 Protoss/9 Zerg in Code S. After KA was removed. The winrate for TvP in Korean tournaments favored Terran up to 61.2% to 38.8% for Protoss. It is now currently 57.7% in favor of Terran to 42.3% for Protoss Currently, there are 19 Terrans/ 5 Protoss/ 7 Zerg in Code S. Immortals have been increased to 6 range. Emp will be changed to 1.5 Tell me how else can I objectively look at it? This is just pure statistics. No bias. I am just telling you the numbers. Edit - This is a serious question. I am not asking flippantly. How else can I look at it objectively? Edit #2: I'll also look at it objectively from the Zerg side. Before KA removal The winrates for ZvP in Korean tournaments was 55.8% for the Protoss and 44.2% for the Zerg. After KA removal: Currently the winrate for ZvP in Korean tournaments is 59.2% for the Zerg and 40.8% for the Protoss. Zerg has recieved a Fungal buff in damage, nerf in duration, buff in ability to stop stalkers from blinking. There's nothing objective about using limited data. Despite the common Protoss rhetoric GSL is not the only tournament out there and believe it or not, Protoss actually fare very well outside of the GSL. Of course when Huk wins MLG every Protoss on SotG immediately claims it has nothing to do with the race and everything to do with the player. Yet when Genius, San, MC and Anypro bomb out of Code S through awful, terrible play it's somehow not the singer but the song. P.S. Heck, Protoss even does well in Code A. They just get (rightfully) eliminated from Code S and all of a sudden Tosses think they have a right to complain about the removal of blindingly-obviously broken spells.
That data is drawn from ALL tournaments listed from TLPD for Korea. Not just GSL. Not just MLG. But all tournaments. What else can I use? Like do you want me to use non Korean tournament data as well?
In which case it is PvT was 49.6% for Protoss versus 50.4% before KA removal.
Now it is currently 52.8% for Terran vs the 47.2% of Protoss
Obviously, there are tons of factors that go into these winrates. Not just the KA removal. But do any of these numbers indicate enough data to have removed KA? Again, my argument is neither for or against the OPness of KA. Just why was it removed so quickly in comparison to EMP which took months to change? KA was removed when PvT showed a 50/50 split. EMP was nerfed only after months of data indicating a statistical imbalance for Terran. Why the disparity? This disparity is why you constantly see these "Bring back KA threads every couple of weeks" from protoss players.
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Australia528 Posts
Even though I'm not entirely convinced that KA should come back in its original form, I'm baffled at the argument most terrans are making: that a terran should be able to punish a protoss heavily after winning an engagement.
I never ever attack into a terran base after winning a battle. why? because I know that he's going to have an army waiting there if not also a planetary. In fact, in most games I win, the terran ggs before I've even set foot inside their base after I've drained their resources. Maybe terran bio shouldn't be able to run into a protoss base with orange hp and wreak havoc. I mean storm can only do so much. If the terran does indeed crush the protoss and has a ton of green marauders left, KA isn't going to save the protoss. But if the bio units are indeed in the orange and about to die from a few storms (terran can still dodge the storms too), that means that the protoss wasn't completely hopeless in the preceding battle and maybe deserves to be able to defend his bases (and terran always has the option to fall back and save his units).
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On November 05 2011 16:22 _Search_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 15:12 GhostFall wrote:On November 05 2011 15:05 oxxo wrote:
KA was ridiculously broken. Take a step back and look at it objectively. Ok. Objectively. No bias. Just pure statistics. The purest objective measure we got is statistics. KA was removed at the end of march. The winrates for TvP in Korean tournaments was 51.5% for the Terran and 48.5% for the Protoss. At the time there were 14 Terrans/9 Protoss/9 Zerg in Code S. After KA was removed. The winrate for TvP in Korean tournaments favored Terran up to 61.2% to 38.8% for Protoss. It is now currently 57.7% in favor of Terran to 42.3% for Protoss Currently, there are 19 Terrans/ 5 Protoss/ 7 Zerg in Code S. Immortals have been increased to 6 range. Emp will be changed to 1.5 Tell me how else can I objectively look at it? This is just pure statistics. No bias. I am just telling you the numbers. Edit - This is a serious question. I am not asking flippantly. How else can I look at it objectively? Edit #2: I'll also look at it objectively from the Zerg side. Before KA removal The winrates for ZvP in Korean tournaments was 55.8% for the Protoss and 44.2% for the Zerg. After KA removal: Currently the winrate for ZvP in Korean tournaments is 59.2% for the Zerg and 40.8% for the Protoss. Zerg has recieved a Fungal buff in damage, nerf in duration, buff in ability to stop stalkers from blinking. There's nothing objective about using limited data. Despite the common Protoss rhetoric GSL is not the only tournament out there and believe it or not, Protoss actually fare very well outside of the GSL. Of course when Huk wins MLG every Protoss on SotG immediately claims it has nothing to do with the race and everything to do with the player. Yet when Genius, San, MC and Anypro bomb out of Code S through awful, terrible play it's somehow not the singer but the song. P.S. Heck, Protoss even does well in Code A. They just get (rightfully) eliminated from Code S and all of a sudden Tosses think they have a right to complain about the removal of blindingly-obviously broken spells. KA was the closest SC2 ever got to an instant win button. Of course it was nerfed.
Just reading the second part made me laugh.
HuK, one man, becomes the first repeat MLG champion and only foreigner to win since the korean invites began. However, 4 players fall out of GSL code S because they slump, play bad, or whatever excuse people come up with and those events are thought of as equal?
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On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote:
No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
Because wiping out mineral lines with blue flame hellions is so much harder, right? This argument is inane.
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EPT
