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zanmat0
188 Posts
On November 05 2011 15:05 oxxo wrote: KA was the closest SC2 ever got to an instant win button. Of course it was nerfed. Care to back this up with statistics? TvP winrate has never dipped below 50% in tournaments. | ||
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mlspmatt
Canada404 Posts
On November 05 2011 15:12 GhostFall wrote: Ok. Objectively. No bias. Just pure statistics. The purest objective measure we got is statistics. KA was removed at the end of march. The winrates for TvP in Korean tournaments was 51.5% for the Terran and 48.5% for the Protoss. At the time there were 14 Terrans/9 Protoss/9 Zerg in Code S. After KA was removed. The winrate for TvP in Korean tournaments favored Terran up to 61.2% to 38.8% for Protoss. It is now currently 57.7% in favor of Terran to 42.3% for Protoss Currently, there are 19 Terrans/ 5 Protoss/ 7 Zerg in Code S. Immortals have been increased to 6 range. Emp will be changed to 1.5 Tell me how else can I objectively look at it? This is just pure statistics. No bias. I am just telling you the numbers. Edit - This is a serious question. I am not asking flippantly. How else can I look at it objectively? Edit #2: I'll also look at it objectively from the Zerg side. Before KA removal The winrates for ZvP in Korean tournaments was 55.8% for the Protoss and 44.2% for the Zerg. After KA removal: Currently the winrate for ZvP in Korean tournaments is 59.2% for the Zerg and 40.8% for the Protoss. Zerg has recieved a Fungal buff in damage, nerf in duration, buff in ability to stop stalkers from blinking. The meta game changes so fast. Attributing everything that has happened since KA removal, because of the KA removal, is ridiculous. In this time span Zerg figured out how to be really aggressive in the early game and not have to deal with late game death balls as much. Terran figured out the 1-1-1 was an insta win until the most recent patches. Terrans started making ghosts, lots of them, in both MU's I didn't realize Protoss had such a hard on for KA. But you guys are blinded by your feelings and current frustration. Some things are clearly imbalanced and obvious. Mass reapers vs Zerg - insta-nurfed. 1 supply roaches was obviously broken and insta-nurfed. Once Blue flame became popular it was obvious there was a problem and insta-nurf. KA was the same thing. It was so obviously broken. You could not advance after a decisive battle cause you'd get stormed to death. So you'd have to stand there, wait 40 seconds for your ghost to build, then god knows how long to get a couple across the map. Its absurd. It's comical that people are defending it. KA may very well have been covering up weaknesses in Protoss that we didn't know existed, but its also possible these weaknesses would show themselves anyway just KA removal sped up the process. Even still, arguing for a clearly imbalanced ability, because its removal shed light on the real weaknesses in protoss is totally flawed logic. I wouldn't be surprised if in 6 months Terran were bitching cause their race was doing shitty. Wasn't MVP complaining 6-8 months ago that Terran was the worst race, had shitty late game, couldn't compete on larger maps? How fast things change. Toss is in a Code 'S' slump. It'll be fine in a couple months. | ||
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FuRong
New Zealand3089 Posts
If it is brought back then what's the worst thing that can happen? If we somehow end up in a situation with 19 Protoss and 5 Terrans in Code S, then it could be reconsidered. But we all know that would never happen, Protoss would get the shit nerfed out of it in other ways before things ever reached that level... | ||
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ppdealer
Canada163 Posts
On November 05 2011 16:22 _Search_ wrote: There's nothing objective about using limited data. Despite the common Protoss rhetoric GSL is not the only tournament out there and believe it or not, Protoss actually fare very well outside of the GSL. Of course when Huk wins MLG every Protoss on SotG immediately claims it has nothing to do with the race and everything to do with the player. Yet when Genius, San, MC and Anypro bomb out of Code S through awful, terrible play it's somehow not the singer but the song. P.S. Heck, Protoss even does well in Code A. They just get (rightfully) eliminated from Code S and all of a sudden Tosses think they have a right to complain about the removal of blindingly-obviously broken spells. KA was the closest SC2 ever got to an instant win button. Of course it was nerfed. First of all, balance matters at the most at the very top because that's where all the money's at. MLG Orlando, which Huk won, has only a $5,000 first place prize (compared to $50,000 for GSL Code S and Blizzcon). I'd be hard pressed to see a Protoss winning MLG Providence. And for people saying that instant storm is broken because it takes away skill and factor of preparedness, that's true. But when you consider how ridiculous fast stimmed marauder can take out a Nexus (marauder also didn't exist in bw btw), it all of a sudden seems much more necessary. There's also the issue with mech (remember, bio is supposed to be vulnerable to splash) not really being viable against Protoss due to Blizzard's awesome idea to not give either Dark Swarm or lurker to Zerg, which made mid-to-late-game TvZ massive lopsided in Terran's favor, until they nerfed the shit out of Siege Tank. If Siege Tank still does 60 dmg a shot I'd imagine it being a perfectly awesome fit for a Terran's army against Protoss, with Ghost to help emp Immortals and Zealots, etc, and maybe some vikings if the siege tanks don't already kill Colossus fast enough. And another thing to keep in mind, Protoss didn't have warp-in in BW, but Terran also didn't have PFs and Sensor Tower, nor Zerg with creep speed bonus. | ||
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MonkSEA
Australia1227 Posts
On November 05 2011 16:26 GhostFall wrote: That data is drawn from ALL tournaments listed from TLPD for Korea. Not just GSL. Not just MLG. But all tournaments. What else can I use? Like do you want me to use non Korean tournament data as well? In which case it is PvT was 49.6% for Protoss versus 50.4% before KA removal. Now it is currently 52.8% for Terran vs the 47.2% of Protoss Obviously, there are tons of factors that go into these winrates. But do any of these numbers indicate enough data to have removed KA? Again, my argument is neither for or against the OPness of KA. Just why was it removed so quickly in comparison to EMP which took months to change? KA was removed when PvT showed a 50/50 split. EMP was nerfed only after months of data indicating a statistical imbalance for Terran. Why the disparity? This disparity is why you constantly see these "Bring back KA threads every couple of weeks" from protoss players. Mr I give you numbers. How long does an infestor take to hatch? How long does a ghost take to recruit? How long pre-KA nerf was a HT sitting there to get enough energy for a storm? There is your answer. Instantly warping in a unit without having to wait for energy to casts its 'major' spell was broken, fullstop. A protoss could hold off an entire marine medivac ball that survived the slaughter of the protoss army, so the marines and medivacs were already hurt.. then you barrel into the natural only to find your army gets taken out as soon as the warpgates were off of cd. Or wait! What about that group of marine medivac that were holding fort, just barely, after surviving every storm the HT could do? Wait it's not over yet! What race had a spell caster who could impact the game so heavily? Warpgates removed it's weakness all together(speed), some might say that the health of it is it's weakness, but that's pretty much for every caster. Also everyone is forgetting that the HT can morph into an archon after it's energy is depleted, essentially recycling the unit. So it's a useful unit overall. Removing the KA has only put the HT back on the board as a balanced unit. It's not overpowered like it was, and it's definitely not underpowered as it is now. Sorry that you Protoss have to play the game of equals, of waiting for enough energy to engage. | ||
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GhostFall
United States830 Posts
On November 05 2011 16:50 mlspmatt wrote: The meta game changes so fast. Attributing everything that has happened since KA removal, because of the KA removal, is ridiculous. In this time span Zerg figured out how to be really aggressive in the early game and not have to deal with late game death balls as much. Terran figured out the 1-1-1 was an insta win until the most recent patches. Terrans started making ghosts, lots of them, in both MU's I didn't realize Protoss had such a hard on for KA. But you guys are blinded by your feelings and current frustration. Some things are clearly imbalanced and obvious. Mass reapers vs Zerg - insta-nurfed. 1 supply roaches was obviously broken and insta-nurfed. Once Blue flame became popular it was obvious there was a problem and insta-nurf. In one of my posts I specifically said, there were tons of factors that went into those winrates. OBviously, it would be ridiculous to attribute the winrates solely on the removal of KA. But, where was the data to show KA was obviously imbalanced? KA was removed when the PvT matchup was 50/50. There was not enough data to indicate it was balanced. There was not enough data to indicate it was overpowered. So why the change so quickly? There was months of data on mass reapers vs Zerg. And Blue Flame Hellions is another one of those changes I absolutely believe should not have been nerfed until more data was collected. For exactly the same reason I don't believe KA should've been removed. | ||
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_Search_
Canada180 Posts
On November 05 2011 16:26 GhostFall wrote: That data is drawn from ALL tournaments listed from TLPD for Korea. Not just GSL. Not just MLG. But all tournaments. What else can I use? Using win stats to dictate balance makes as much sense as using population to determine prosperity. Balance is much more nuanced. I really hope tosses aren't so biased that they don't recognize that the Korean Terrans are leagues above the Korean Tosses. San Zenith was garbage. SC is by far the stronger player. Even when Trickster was eliminated from Code S some of his biggest fans had to admit that he didn't belong there. | ||
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GhostFall
United States830 Posts
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FuRong
New Zealand3089 Posts
Poll: Would you support the reintroduction of KA to SC2? Yes (29) No (9) Undecided (0) 38 total votes Your vote: Would you support the reintroduction of KA to SC2? | ||
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zanmat0
188 Posts
On November 05 2011 17:01 _Search_ wrote: Using win stats to dictate balance makes as much sense as using population to determine prosperity. Balance is much more nuanced. I really hope tosses aren't so biased that they don't recognize that the Korean Terrans are leagues above the Korean Tosses. San Zenith was garbage. SC is by far the stronger player. Even when Trickster was eliminated from Code S some of his biggest fans had to admit that he didn't belong there. It's incredible what arguments Terrans will come up with to justify that either of their matchups are balanced. Not only is what you said ridiculous, given that Korean Ps practice just as hard as Korean Ts, it is impossible to prove. Please stop throwing the science of statistics out the window every time it doesn't agree with you. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On November 05 2011 17:07 FuRong wrote: Also, this thread needs a poll. I'm curious what the community thinks. Poll: Would you support the reintroduction of KA to SC2? Yes (29) No (9) Undecided (0) 38 total votes Your vote: Would you support the reintroduction of KA to SC2? Maybe you should add an option "Yes, but tweaked/toned down." | ||
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ander
Canada403 Posts
On November 05 2011 17:01 _Search_ wrote: Using win stats to dictate balance makes as much sense as using population to determine prosperity. Balance is much more nuanced. I really hope tosses aren't so biased that they don't recognize that the Korean Terrans are leagues above the Korean Tosses. San Zenith was garbage. SC is by far the stronger player. Even when Trickster was eliminated from Code S some of his biggest fans had to admit that he didn't belong there. Wtf? Lol this argument just pisses me off. There is absolutely NO WAY that you can completely disregard hard FACT by simply stating "terran players are better". That is your opinion. You suggest that Terran is winning just because Terran players are better than Protoss players. That's like saying if you and I were in a race and you were driving this: ![[image loading]](http://www.fobz.com/images/expensive-fast-car.jpg) And i was driving this: ![[image loading]](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3360/3223345610_de0dd11c35.jpg) Then after you won, you said: "I'm the better driver." That's basically what you're saying about PvT. | ||
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DrGreen
Poland708 Posts
On November 05 2011 16:50 mlspmatt wrote: I didn't realize Protoss had such a hard on for KA. But you guys are blinded by your feelings and current frustration. Some things are clearly imbalanced and obvious. Mass reapers vs Zerg - insta-nurfed. 1 supply roaches was obviously broken and insta-nurfed. Once Blue flame became popular it was obvious there was a problem and insta-nurf. KA was the same thing. It was so obviously broken. You could not advance after a decisive battle cause you'd get stormed to death. So you'd have to stand there, wait 40 seconds for your ghost to build, then god knows how long to get a couple across the map. Its absurd. You couldn't advance after decisive battle? Not like it doesnt happen in TvZ. TvP didnt end after one battle? Obviously that's bad from viewer stand point, right? Waiting 40 sec for ghost was hard? Now if u want to play HT u need to wait 40s before being able to do anything, u need to leave hundredths of gas idle in bases which makes main unit composition weak as fuck. With KA removal protoss lost the only defender advantage toss ever had, thats why after 1.3 we never see TvPs go longer then 3-4 base play, cause one battle = one game. Was KA OP? I'm not sure. Storm isnt instant spell and it introduces a lot of micro into the game. And after KA removal there's no P builds which core is Storm play (ye, archons are good after their buff but it has nothing to do with KA). I feel like changing warp-in time of HT from 5s to 10s might be enough. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On November 05 2011 17:21 DrGreen wrote: You couldn't advance after decisive battle? Not like it doesnt happen in TvZ. TvP didnt end after one battle? Obviously that's bad from viewer stand point, right? Waiting 40 sec for ghost was hard? Now if u want to play HT u need to wait 40s before being able to do anything, u need to leave hundredths of gas idle in bases which makes main unit composition weak as fuck. With KA removal protoss lost the only defender advantage toss ever had, thats why after 1.3 we never see TvPs go longer then 3-4 base play, cause one battle = one game. Was KA OP? I'm not sure. Storm isnt instant spell and it introduces a lot of micro into the game. And after KA removal there's no P builds which core is Storm play (ye, archons are good after their buff but it has nothing to do with KA). I feel like changing warp-in time of HT from 5s to 10s might be enough. Hmm, actually, I'm quite sure that archons were buffed to counter-balance a bit the KA nerf. It has not been enough though, of course. | ||
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_Search_
Canada180 Posts
On November 05 2011 17:03 GhostFall wrote: You want me to remain objective by assuming people who play Terrans are somehow inherently better than people who play Protoss? Not assuming. Recognizing. Not people. Code S players. On November 05 2011 17:09 zanmat0 wrote: It's incredible what arguments Terrans will come up with to justify that either of their matchups are balanced. Not only is what you said ridiculous, given that Korean Ps practice just as hard as Korean Ts, it is impossible to prove. Please stop throwing the science of statistics out the window every time it doesn't agree with you. Now you're equating time spent with skill. Your comparisons are lacking. And the "science of statistics" DOES agree with me. As Blizzard stated at Blizzcon, only in Code S is Protoss lacking. They're performing totally well in every other tournament on the planet. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On November 05 2011 17:27 _Search_ wrote: Not assuming. Recognizing. Not people. Code S players. *Sigh* Good old "Terran players are obviously better. So much more solid and skilled!" I mean, who dies to some 1/1/1 anyway? Terran players sure don't. God Protoss are such noobs.... | ||
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Avan
Brazil121 Posts
I'm saying Storm is HTs only useful ability in PvT because who would go HT tech to feedback medivacs? And whoever says "But that thing can turn into an Archon!" Yeah... Archons have 350 shield and 10 life? EMP takes 100 shield for free from a group of units.3 EMPs = dead protoss army (incluing archons). Something is very wrong with this game. EDIT: Allow me to clarify what I think: Apart from EMP, PvT is probably the most balanced match up so far. Marines and Marauder are awesomely powerful, but we can deal with them if half our health does not suddenly disappear. EDIT Number 2: I've said this before and I will say it again: The main issue with the Protoss race is the Warpgate Technology. Remove that, balance units, race fixed. Oh, and get rid of the sentry. | ||
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50bani
Romania480 Posts
On November 05 2011 15:41 ReignFayth wrote: giving protoss KA again would be nice, PvT would prob be 50/50 Maybe 50-50 isn't balanced, you know? Let's say average game time is 14 minutes, with Terran winning 60% of games under that and Protoss winning 60% of games longer than that. How does that look to you? How about a rock paper scissors matchup like BW ZvZ? Let's blindly go for a certain build, and see if we get ahead or behind without anything happening in the game. Protoss was too weak before KA and too strong after it. Blizzard "fixed" one problem but forgot to fix the other. Like I said a few times, the bane of Protoss matchups balance is warpgate and Sentry, and the designers are stuck on solving balance without tackling the major issues. Edit: wording; replaced fixed with stuck | ||
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zyzski
United States698 Posts
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GhostFall
United States830 Posts
On November 05 2011 17:27 _Search_ wrote: Not assuming. Recognizing. Not people. Code S players. I.... don't even know how to respond to this. So I'll just post my first response: On November 05 2011 17:03 GhostFall wrote: You want me to remain objective by assuming people who play Terrans are somehow inherently better than people who play Protoss? Heck, I have my college stats course book nearby. There are 19 Code S players that are Terran. IF all matchups ZvT, ZvP, PvT are 100% perfectly balanced 50/50 (they're not), do you want me to calculate just how unlikely it is given a perfectly random distribution of people who pick up Starcraft, than it turns out 19 Terran players are in Code S by virtue of just being better. I guarantee this shit will go over yours and most other people's heads. But I'll do it, if you want to know statistically how ludicrous your argument is. I don't even know how this adds to the discussion????? Fine, let's assume Terran players are just better. THAT STILL doesn't show me any data showing KA was so overpowered it had to be removed because it was removed so quickly. I can give you statistical examples of Terrans beating Protoss. I can cite numerous different strategies that Protoss have tried, only to lose to EMP. I can do that because there is months and months of data on EMP. You have absolutely no statistical evidence that KA was overpowered. You might be able to cite a couple different strategies tried against KA, all of them bio, but no where near the number I can cite for EMP. The only thing you can say is KA was OP because you say so. Why is this the case? Because KA was only in the metagame for a single month before it was removed. Maybe you think KA is overpowered. Maybe you're absolutely right. But right now, there is no where enough evidence to show that KA was overpowered. I'm not arguing KA was balanced. I'm not arguing KA was perfectly fine. I'm telling you, objectively you cannot say KA was overpowered. Which is why I ask the question: Why was KA removed so quickly, when EMP was changed after months and months of data collection? | ||
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