EPTAfter they took out KA, they had ALL sorts of balanced problems, protoss winrates dropped hard in korea.
[D] KA in PvT then and now- NSHoSeo_san vs MVP_sC - Page 10
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koolaid1990
831 Posts
After they took out KA, they had ALL sorts of balanced problems, protoss winrates dropped hard in korea. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On November 05 2011 08:32 mlspmatt wrote: I don't know why there's no discussion about how bad the Korean Protoss play style is. Protoss strength is late game, yet the Korean Protoss are the cheesiest players on the planet. Hongun, Genius, Tassadar, Alicia, even MC at times can't help himself and uses some crappy void-ray or DT garbage. Its a pandemic. Protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out, or broodlord/infestor for the other MU. The idea that Protoss is strong in the late game is a myth created earlier in the game's life when people didn't know anything really. Protoss players are cheesy because *nothing else works*. Simple as that. The race is just a bit shitty. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On November 05 2011 08:03 me_viet wrote: But if the argument is that the game should be balanced at the highest level, then GSL code S having such a dominant Terran presence SHOULD be worrying. Code S had a shitty tournament structure that didn't allow for a lot of change. Add to that terran stability, early dominance during the beginnings of SC2 and simply more and/or better players and you have a recipe for GomTvT. On November 05 2011 08:45 Yaotzin wrote: Protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out, or broodlord/infestor for the other MU. The idea that Protoss is strong in the late game is a myth created earlier in the game's life when people didn't know anything really. Protoss players are cheesy because *nothing else works*. Simple as that. The race is just a bit shitty. Guess what. In a couple of months the "protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out" is going to be a myth, just the same way. It's called metagame. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On November 05 2011 08:46 Dalavita wrote: Guess what. In a couple of months the "protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out" is going to be a myth, just the same way. It's called metagame. Maybe. Because they're being nerfed. That's not called metagame. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On November 05 2011 08:48 Yaotzin wrote: Maybe. Because they're being nerfed. That's not called metagame. Bad players will argue that indeed. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
Protoss has no way of dealing with ghosts, this is nothing new. If they stop obliterating every toss player in the world, it will only be because they got nerfed. Apparently Blizzard agrees with me since, yknow, they're nerfing them. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
Immortal buff was necessary, Acrhon buff was as well, all of those fixes were to help PvP. I don't know what other kind of drastic changes you might be thinking about, but this game has evolved past KA and it won't return. | ||
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Bajsgrodan
Afghanistan408 Posts
And remember that mapchoises and map pools affect results alot also... | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
Bad players will argue that ghosts being nerfed makes them easier to deal with? what? isn't that just logic? | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On November 05 2011 08:53 Yaotzin wrote: Protoss has no way of dealing with ghosts, this is nothing new. If they stop obliterating every toss player in the world, it will only be because they got nerfed. Apparently Blizzard agrees with me since, yknow, they're nerfing them. Yea, nothing Protoss has can kill a ghost. They are invincible against chargelots and colossi especially. Their attacks just bounce off the ghost armor! | ||
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong747 Posts
But more importantly, I think it adds more strategic decision making elements to the game, I mean right now, when you see a protoss use up templar energy with storm you see them instantly morphing into an archon. I would like it so that its feasible to sometimes instead choose to remain in templar form and wait for energy to recharge again, just pressing [T] followed up by [C] instantly everytime without hesitation makes the game less fun since there's no thought process behind it imo. | ||
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weiliem
2072 Posts
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On November 05 2011 08:45 Yaotzin wrote: Protoss gets utterly destroyed once ghosts come out, or broodlord/infestor for the other MU. The idea that Protoss is strong in the late game is a myth created earlier in the game's life when people didn't know anything really. Protoss players are cheesy because *nothing else works*. Simple as that. The race is just a bit shitty. That argument panned out real well against Terrans back in the Steppes of War days too. However, Terrans got nerfed (directly and indirectly) into having to play more macro oriented play styles. Those same map changes that forced Terran to rethink early game had little effect on warp-in Protoss, nor did any balance changes really affect Protoss early game aggressive options. Face it, Protoss are able to win a lot with gimmick play and tend to focus on that style, especially in Korea. | ||
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mlspmatt
Canada404 Posts
On November 05 2011 09:45 aksfjh wrote: That argument panned out real well against Terrans back in the Steppes of War days too. However, Terrans got nerfed (directly and indirectly) into having to play more macro oriented play styles. Those same map changes that forced Terran to rethink early game had little effect on warp-in Protoss, nor did any balance changes really affect Protoss early game aggressive options. Face it, Protoss are able to win a lot with gimmick play and tend to focus on that style, especially in Korea. Amen to this. | ||
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InFi.asc
Germany518 Posts
so you agree that the current Protoss design is shit and needs a revamp. weaker timing pushes and more end game capabilities?! | ||
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deadmau
960 Posts
On November 05 2011 09:45 aksfjh wrote: That argument panned out real well against Terrans back in the Steppes of War days too. However, Terrans got nerfed (directly and indirectly) into having to play more macro oriented play styles. Those same map changes that forced Terran to rethink early game had little effect on warp-in Protoss, nor did any balance changes really affect Protoss early game aggressive options. Face it, Protoss are able to win a lot with gimmick play and tend to focus on that style, especially in Korea. Wow you are dense, you are just confirming what Yaotzin said. Toss is so garbage they are pigeonholed in to gimmicky shit. "Nothing else works." An entire race has to be based around all-ins to win? What kind of balance is that. | ||
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InFi.asc
Germany518 Posts
On November 05 2011 10:05 deadmau wrote: Wow you are dense, you are just confirming what Yaotzin said. Toss is so garbage they are pigeonholed in to gimmicky shit. "Nothing else works." even if i kind of agree with your post, please try not to insult people... | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On November 05 2011 09:59 InFi.asc wrote: so you agree that the current Protoss design is shit and needs a revamp. weaker timing pushes and more end game capabilities?! Except without the "end game" capabilities part. As long as "top" Protoss feel that they can use gimmicky all-in-ish builds, they will continue to prepare them as go-to builds. You can give them all the options and end-game buffs in the world, but as long as they have that deck of powerful early options, they will continue to use them at the detriment of tournament results, as long as they continue to work in practice. I guarantee you, no Protoss in GSL goes into their matches having practiced builds they lose a lot with in practice. | ||
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InFi.asc
Germany518 Posts
On November 05 2011 10:12 aksfjh wrote: Except without the "end game" capabilities part. As long as "top" Protoss feel that they can use gimmicky all-in-ish builds, they will continue to prepare them as go-to builds. You can give them all the options and end-game buffs in the world, but as long as they have that deck of powerful early options, they will continue to use them at the detriment of tournament results, as long as they continue to work in practice. I guarantee you, no Protoss in GSL goes into their matches having practiced builds they lose a lot with in practice. i kind of agree with you. that is what would happen. the reality is a little different though, i think. i remember MC trying to play macro games against terrans, see the finals NASL and IEM against Puma and he got utterly destroyed despite of playing better (imo). the trend is last month(s) has been back from macro games to gimmicky timing attacks because macro games failed protoss so hard. edit: btw, I am not saying KA was fine the way it was! | ||
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eourcs
United States459 Posts
On November 05 2011 08:43 koolaid1990 wrote: blizzard was stupid. The game was balanced with KA. Toss was near 50% winrate, games were 10x much more fun to watch with all the constant back and forth type action. drops are way to devastating to toss these days. Even when KA was in, the first 2 gsl champions were zerg, and protoss were struggling in the GSL until MC came in, and even then most of his games won were really strong cheeses. After they took out KA, they had ALL sorts of balanced problems, protoss winrates dropped hard in korea. KA was in no way balanced and i'm not sure where you got the 50% from. I distinctly remember many terrans saying that you couldn't let protoss get templar or else you'd lose (Drewbie said on stream once "hey guys i got a new sick tvp build. What I do is scan every minute and when i see a templar archive, i bring every single scv and allin them". There were many games where a terran would absolutely demolish a protoss army (which in of itself at the time was rare) and protoss would warp in 5 storms and herp derp the terran's army is gone. That doesn't seem like fun to watch. Now that terrans have gotten ridiculously good with ghosts, should the KA be put back in? Definitely not in its previous form, but a +15 energy or faster energy regen would be something neat to try out. As for the people saying that Protosses cheese because that's the only thing viable, that's completely retarded. Do you really think that if "Macro protoss" was buffed (which it doesn't really need to be), people like Hongun, Hwangsin, Genius, and every single other alliny-protosses would suddenly adopt macro play? No, they allin because it's very easy to execute and can easily grant you free-wins which is what you're looking for when you're a bad player. | ||
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