I think it removed all offensive potential of the protoss (push-wise, you can still drop fine).
Explanation: Before, you could push into a terrans defensive stance, he'd have ghosts set up to emp all your templar, missile turrets to kill your obs when it gets close... but at least you can warp in more templar to storm. Now, if you push, you better hope you manage to get a storm off before all your templar get EMP'ed, or else your gateway army gets wasted getting clogged by supply depots, bunkers, and PFs.
My playstyle has become so defensive, because it is easier to split up templars and set up observers. I can for sure feedback a couple ghosts and get off some storms, compared to 0 storm and 0 feedback when I'm on the offensive.
On November 05 2011 00:50 Noocta wrote: Stop with KA seriously.
Warp a templar, wait for energy to storm = produce a ghost/ infestor with energy upgrade
It's the SAME TIME.
That's a terrible comparison because infestors and ghosts are much better units than templars overall.
They're the spellcaster of the other races. Buff templar spells, add another one, but don't bring KA back. Spellcaster shoudl not be able to be produce to instaly use their 75 energy spell. Build time for terran and zerg, energy wanting for toss.
I can't even know how people can think "heh, it wasn'"t this bad ". These kind of people could make you feel like 7 range speed voidray were fine. My gosh.
On November 05 2011 00:50 Noocta wrote: Stop with KA seriously.
Warp a templar, wait for energy to storm = produce a ghost/ infestor with energy upgrade
It's the SAME TIME.
That's a terrible comparison because infestors and ghosts are much better units than templars overall.
They're the spellcaster of the other races. Buff templar spells, add another one, but don't bring KA back. Spellcaster shoudl not be able to be produce to instaly use their 75 energy spell. Build time for terran and zerg, energy wanting for toss.
I can't even know how people can think "heh, it wasn'"t this bad ". These kind of people could make you feel like 7 range speed voidray were fine. My gosh.
You have to consider that p is balanced around having that extra round of units right now, rather than being in the production queue, so in that sense it hurts to not have templars, but you have a good point. The big problem with it is that P is op with KA, and up wihout it in lategame pvt situations, so i don't know how you balance that. I hope they someday just remove warpgates, ff's and make gateway units better, but i have the feeling it's not gonna happen
Well something just doesn't add up. People don't factor in slow movement of HT or reaction time for defense. Everything below in game seconds.
It takes 5 game seconds to warp in a unit from warp gates. It may take you a 2 to 4 game seconds to respond to a base raid anyway (unless you spotted it well beforehand), so more like 7 to 9 (we'll call it 8) seconds to get him on the field. It takes 3.5 seconds to walk the distance of a nexus with a HT after he is warped in. Note you can't warp in next to the drop or you die instantly, so you have to walk. It takes 1 second to cast storm, and storm lasts 4 seconds.
Add those up. You get 8 + 3.5 + 1 + 4 = 16.5 seconds!! It takes longer if you warp further away for safety. You start doing damage with storm at about 12.5 seconds. Longer if you walk further than a nexus, shorter if you saw the drop incoming and reacted before he landed.
It takes about 16 seconds for 2 dropships (16 marines) full of stimmed marines to kill a nexus. 14 seconds for 8 (2 dropships full) stimmed marauders to kill a nexus. 12 seconds for +1 stimmed marines to do the same thing.
So are you telling me unprepared Protoss were killing ANY marines with warped in HT to storm? BS, that is not true and there are your numbers to prove it. Now if the Protoss saw you coming and instantly reacted, he could get HT there soon enough. But every race has ways of dealing with drops if they spot them, so that should be fine.
And note, marauders, even after stimming, have 105 HP so one storm can't kill them. They can sit through the entire 4 seconds of storm and not die even if their medivacs are out of energy or healing another target.
So let me get this straight... even with KA warp ins Terran still have the ability to kill a Nexus... a nexus has MORE HP than any other building in the game!!! Either by being sneaky with marine drops or by just taking the damage with marauder drops.
So no, Protoss have to warp in lots of units to defend a drop. KA warp in Storm being LESS powerful than just warping in a bunch of charge zealots, unless the bio is hidden behind buildings or something.
--------- ---------
Some more fun facts:
8 secs to unload 8 marines from medivac.
8 marines takes about 15 seconds (less if you stim earlier) to unload right next to and kill a HT archives, twilight council, robo support (all have 500 HP/500 SP). Robotics facility only has 450/450 though.
Did you know if you drop marines while the medivac is still moving, they unload spaced apart perfectly so that a psi storm can only hit 2 marines at most? Right click your medivac dropship somewhere, then click the unload command and click on the medivac while it is still moving.
Did you know it takes 19 seconds for a HT to walk from the top right corner of the natural expansion nexus to the top right corner of the main nexus at the bottom position of Shattered Temple?
How long before 20 +1 attack speedlings kill a nexus? l5 seconds.
Are so called KA "warp in storms" good against...
Offense / Raiding Bases: -against spines, cannons, etc. ? No -running away workers? No
Defense: -baneling drops in the middle of your probes? NO -zerglings hold position in the middle of your probes? NO -Red health stimmed bio killing you and all your melee units as they are warped in to defend your base? Yes!! That's fair enough, right?
TL;DR:
A group of stimmed marines can kill a nexus before you can get a HT there if you were not planning for it. That means a group of stimmed marines can kill your HT archives and your twilight council in the time it takes to get HT there to stop them.
That means... warping in HT to storm is not very effective. Chargelots and DTs are more useful.
On November 05 2011 03:15 yakitate304 wrote: Like many others, I think the proper response would be to bring back Amulet but have it only do +15 energy, so you could warp in Templar but they wouldn't immediately have Storms. It would take about 8 seconds to build up to 75 energy, which I think it balanced given that Infestors get an immediate Fungal with their upgrade.
Casters are different. I might as well complain about wanting some kind of anti-energy unit spell on Infestors since both Ghosts and HTs have one.
Besides, I like Starcraft so much in part because the races are truly different.
Now regarding KA, whether it was imbalanced or not I have no idea, but I didn't like it as a spectator. It did seem a bit like paying 150g for a storm, especially since Archons were less useful back then.
On November 05 2011 00:50 Noocta wrote: Stop with KA seriously.
Warp a templar, wait for energy to storm = produce a ghost/ infestor with energy upgrade
It's the SAME TIME.
That's a terrible comparison because infestors and ghosts are much better units than templars overall.
They're the spellcaster of the other races. Buff templar spells, add another one, but don't bring KA back. Spellcaster shoudl not be able to be produce to instaly use their 75 energy spell. Build time for terran and zerg, energy wanting for toss.
I can't even know how people can think "heh, it wasn'"t this bad ". These kind of people could make you feel like 7 range speed voidray were fine. My gosh.
You have to consider that p is balanced around having that extra round of units right now, rather than being in the production queue, so in that sense it hurts to not have templars, but you have a good point. The big problem with it is that P is op with KA, and up wihout it in lategame pvt situations, so i don't know how you balance that. I hope they someday just remove warpgates, ff's and make gateway units better, but i have the feeling it's not gonna happen
I like your post, and it has me thinking.
One way to balance the game would be to give Protoss some way to deal with bio cost efficiently when coming from slightly behind. Colossus don't often work because Terran can overmake vikings if they are slightly ahead.
It should be a unit that does AOE damage but can't be hit by vikings. Now where would I find one of those that can do something and be produced soon enough that it will make a difference? If the old KA was too good and the new naked HT is too bad, why not somewhere in between?! It has only been suggested a million times, but I don't know why Blizzard doesn't consider it.
KA was probably too strong but what about ghosts? They should have been nerfed more already. PvT at the highest level of play seems to favor terran and I wonder how much it would change if KA would be brought back. Terrans would still be dominating at the highest level of play I think.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
If the Terran pulls probes when you start to warp-in you can just cancel it by transforming the prism. In other words, doing damage and just risking a 200 mineral warp prism. If you fly around with HT's in a Warp Prism, there is a good chance it will die with your really expensive HT's inside it. Besides, there are some expansions (usually late-game expansions) where you could warp-in on the high ground behind the base.
What they probably could do to make HT's better again is shorter storm research time and making it a bit cheaper. This would lessen the risk, they have already reduced the reward of going this path. Going back to warp-in HT's with storm is not a good option I think.
wait, you honestly think that ht needs buffing? are you insane? unline emp, storm does actual damage and kills units.
do what the terrans do and do not clump your units if your that scared of emp. not hard.
I would just like to link the interview that TL did with Dustin Browder at blizzcon.:
In this recent interview he talk about(amoug other things) how the removal of KA came to be. And it was pretty clear that KA was at gunpoint already from launch. They were concerned about it being OP but tried it anyway. In retrospec they can now easily see that it was OP and had to go.
So i really don't think it is going to happen. It is seems to be one of the choices that Blizzard is certain about. You might argue that protoss was stronger and still were balanced with KA but it seems that blizzard won't try to balance protoss around it.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
If the Terran pulls probes when you start to warp-in you can just cancel it by transforming the prism. In other words, doing damage and just risking a 200 mineral warp prism. If you fly around with HT's in a Warp Prism, there is a good chance it will die with your really expensive HT's inside it. Besides, there are some expansions (usually late-game expansions) where you could warp-in on the high ground behind the base.
What they probably could do to make HT's better again is shorter storm research time and making it a bit cheaper. This would lessen the risk, they have already reduced the reward of going this path. Going back to warp-in HT's with storm is not a good option I think.
wait, you honestly think that ht needs buffing? are you insane? unline emp, storm does actual damage and kills units.
do what the terrans do and do not clump your units if your that scared of emp. not hard.
Plague didn't kill things in Broodwar either, I guess it must be inferior to Psi Storm and people should just stop clumping things up, not hard right?
On a serious note, HT's certainly don't need buffing more so its other units that need...er..nerfing
Khaydarin amulet was really good for the top level players. The problem was with the lower leagues having a huge difficulty moving units out of storms the instant someone warped a templar in.
Yeah I know, balancing the game among the lower leagues is ridiculous.
On November 05 2011 03:24 Grampz wrote: I've said this before, and it is too damn powerful for THIS game. WARP in with WARP PRISM BUFF is TOO strong. if it was implemented again, now that people use warp prism, you could warp in a storm in your opponents mineral line whenever u want. lolz~!
dude, how do you play this game? are you also worried about burrowed infestors? dt rushes? cloack banshee? i dont know what games you've been playing but storm drops have been around for almost a decade in THIS(starcraft) game.
you idiot, i'm not saying it hasn't been done before, but it would take 0 SKILL to do it.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
If the Terran pulls probes when you start to warp-in you can just cancel it by transforming the prism. In other words, doing damage and just risking a 200 mineral warp prism. If you fly around with HT's in a Warp Prism, there is a good chance it will die with your really expensive HT's inside it. Besides, there are some expansions (usually late-game expansions) where you could warp-in on the high ground behind the base.
What they probably could do to make HT's better again is shorter storm research time and making it a bit cheaper. This would lessen the risk, they have already reduced the reward of going this path. Going back to warp-in HT's with storm is not a good option I think.
wait, you honestly think that ht needs buffing? are you insane? unline emp, storm does actual damage and kills units.
do what the terrans do and do not clump your units if your that scared of emp. not hard.
you can spread all you like, 6-7 ghosts emp'ing will still hit everything - and you can still dodge a storm :D
The issue with the amulet was that it took no thought to pull off, no skills or planning. You simply warped in a templar at whatever pylon was necessary and did a truckton of damage to a clump of the opponents army. Add an endgame situation where both players are floating 1k/1k and you can do that over and over, and eventually you simply kill off the opponents army with just 3-4 templars, because even if they dodged the first storm after a second, they'd still taken a bunch of damage. The issue wasn't that storm was to strong, it was simply amulet in combination with warp ins.
Edit: Here's a personal experience I had fighting a toss endgame with KA still there to illustrate my point.
I killed off his army in a blob v blob battle, and was about to push up into his main to finish him off. All of a sudden I eat two storms on the ramp, and most of my already injured army just melts to two warped in high templars... If the HTs had been there beforehand as a preemptive thing, I'd be fine with it, but it was literally an oh shit-button that did guaranteed damage.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
If the Terran pulls probes when you start to warp-in you can just cancel it by transforming the prism. In other words, doing damage and just risking a 200 mineral warp prism. If you fly around with HT's in a Warp Prism, there is a good chance it will die with your really expensive HT's inside it. Besides, there are some expansions (usually late-game expansions) where you could warp-in on the high ground behind the base.
What they probably could do to make HT's better again is shorter storm research time and making it a bit cheaper. This would lessen the risk, they have already reduced the reward of going this path. Going back to warp-in HT's with storm is not a good option I think.
wait, you honestly think that ht needs buffing? are you insane? unline emp, storm does actual damage and kills units.
do what the terrans do and do not clump your units if your that scared of emp. not hard.
EMP does an instant 100 damage to Protoss, at 10 range with (currently) a 2 AoE. Storm does 80 damage in a 1.5 AoE at 9 range. High Templars cannot cloak. High Templars cannot attack. High Templars are slow as shit. High Templars do not have an energy upgrade, unlike Ghosts.
And yes, it is ridiculously hard to split your army against an invisible foe that can carpet bomb your entire army in a second.
Well something just doesn't add up. People don't factor in slow movement of HT or reaction time for defense. Everything below in game seconds.
It takes 5 game seconds to warp in a unit from warp gates. It may take you a 2 to 4 game seconds to respond to a base raid anyway (unless you spotted it well beforehand), so more like 7 to 9 (we'll call it 8) seconds to get him on the field. It takes 3.5 seconds to walk the distance of a nexus with a HT after he is warped in. Note you can't warp in next to the drop or you die instantly, so you have to walk. It takes 1 second to cast storm, and storm lasts 4 seconds.
Add those up. You get 8 + 3.5 + 1 + 4 = 16.5 seconds!! It takes longer if you warp further away for safety. You start doing damage with storm at about 12.5 seconds. Longer if you walk further than a nexus, shorter if you saw the drop incoming and reacted before he landed.
It takes about 16 seconds for 2 dropships (16 marines) full of stimmed marines to kill a nexus. 14 seconds for 8 (2 dropships full) stimmed marauders to kill a nexus. 12 seconds for +1 stimmed marines to do the same thing.
So are you telling me unprepared Protoss were killing ANY marines with warped in HT to storm? BS, that is not true and there are your numbers to prove it. Now if the Protoss saw you coming and instantly reacted, he could get HT there soon enough. But every race has ways of dealing with drops if they spot them, so that should be fine.
And note, marauders, even after stimming, have 105 HP so one storm can't kill them. They can sit through the entire 4 seconds of storm and not die even if their medivacs are out of energy or healing another target.
So let me get this straight... even with KA warp ins Terran still have the ability to kill a Nexus... a nexus has MORE HP than any other building in the game!!! Either by being sneaky with marine drops or by just taking the damage with marauder drops.
So no, Protoss have to warp in lots of units to defend a drop. KA warp in Storm being LESS powerful than just warping in a bunch of charge zealots, unless the bio is hidden behind buildings or something.
--------- ---------
Some more fun facts:
8 secs to unload 8 marines from medivac.
8 marines takes about 15 seconds (less if you stim earlier) to unload right next to and kill a HT archives, twilight council, robo support (all have 500 HP/500 SP). Robotics facility only has 450/450 though.
Did you know if you drop marines while the medivac is still moving, they unload spaced apart perfectly so that a psi storm can only hit 2 marines at most? Right click your medivac dropship somewhere, then click the unload command and click on the medivac while it is still moving.
Did you know it takes 19 seconds for a HT to walk from the top right corner of the natural expansion nexus to the top right corner of the main nexus at the bottom position of Shattered Temple?
How long before 20 +1 attack speedlings kill a nexus? l5 seconds.
Are so called KA "warp in storms" good against...
Offense / Raiding Bases: -against spines, cannons, etc. ? No -running away workers? No
Defense: -baneling drops in the middle of your probes? NO -zerglings hold position in the middle of your probes? NO -Red health stimmed bio killing you and all your melee units as they are warped in to defend your base? Yes!! That's fair enough, right?
TL;DR:
A group of stimmed marines can kill a nexus before you can get a HT there if you were not planning for it. That means a group of stimmed marines can kill your HT archives and your twilight council in the time it takes to get HT there to stop them.
That means... warping in HT to storm is not very effective. Chargelots and DTs are more useful.
So again, why nerf KA?
They weren't good defensively, sure. But they're hell strong offensively. Warping in a round of HT when you're about to attack so you have a bunch of storms in 5 seconds? You call that balanced? It's only fair that each race has to wait to get their spellcasters OR spellcasters energy. 50 seconds on infestors, added with the pathogen glands too. Ghosts take a while to pop and have an energy upgrade as well. It was just too strong.
Warpin on the high ground on XNC @ the natural 3rd. Dead SCV's/Drones/Probes. Warpin on the low ground on XNC @ the gold. Dead SCV's/Drones/Probes.
No race should be able to instantly create a spellcaster that can use its strongest spell off of the get-go.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
If the Terran pulls probes when you start to warp-in you can just cancel it by transforming the prism. In other words, doing damage and just risking a 200 mineral warp prism. If you fly around with HT's in a Warp Prism, there is a good chance it will die with your really expensive HT's inside it. Besides, there are some expansions (usually late-game expansions) where you could warp-in on the high ground behind the base.
What they probably could do to make HT's better again is shorter storm research time and making it a bit cheaper. This would lessen the risk, they have already reduced the reward of going this path. Going back to warp-in HT's with storm is not a good option I think.
wait, you honestly think that ht needs buffing? are you insane? unline emp, storm does actual damage and kills units.
do what the terrans do and do not clump your units if your that scared of emp. not hard.
Plague didn't kill things in Broodwar either, I guess it must be inferior to Psi Storm and people should just stop clumping things up, not hard right?
On a serious note, HT's certainly don't need buffing more so its other units that need...er..nerfing
HT needs a buff to move speed... if you have HT in your army, you have to move with the speed of a battlecruiser.
it's the most expensive tech of all the casters (ghost/infestor) and yet can't have a move speed of 2.25... Why Blizz??
Well something just doesn't add up. People don't factor in slow movement of HT or reaction time for defense. Everything below in game seconds.
It takes 5 game seconds to warp in a unit from warp gates. It may take you a 2 to 4 game seconds to respond to a base raid anyway (unless you spotted it well beforehand), so more like 7 to 9 (we'll call it 8) seconds to get him on the field. It takes 3.5 seconds to walk the distance of a nexus with a HT after he is warped in. Note you can't warp in next to the drop or you die instantly, so you have to walk. It takes 1 second to cast storm, and storm lasts 4 seconds.
Add those up. You get 8 + 3.5 + 1 + 4 = 16.5 seconds!! It takes longer if you warp further away for safety. You start doing damage with storm at about 12.5 seconds. Longer if you walk further than a nexus, shorter if you saw the drop incoming and reacted before he landed.
It takes about 16 seconds for 2 dropships (16 marines) full of stimmed marines to kill a nexus. 14 seconds for 8 (2 dropships full) stimmed marauders to kill a nexus. 12 seconds for +1 stimmed marines to do the same thing.
So are you telling me unprepared Protoss were killing ANY marines with warped in HT to storm? BS, that is not true and there are your numbers to prove it. Now if the Protoss saw you coming and instantly reacted, he could get HT there soon enough. But every race has ways of dealing with drops if they spot them, so that should be fine.
And note, marauders, even after stimming, have 105 HP so one storm can't kill them. They can sit through the entire 4 seconds of storm and not die even if their medivacs are out of energy or healing another target.
So let me get this straight... even with KA warp ins Terran still have the ability to kill a Nexus... a nexus has MORE HP than any other building in the game!!! Either by being sneaky with marine drops or by just taking the damage with marauder drops.
So no, Protoss have to warp in lots of units to defend a drop. KA warp in Storm being LESS powerful than just warping in a bunch of charge zealots, unless the bio is hidden behind buildings or something.
--------- ---------
Some more fun facts:
8 secs to unload 8 marines from medivac.
8 marines takes about 15 seconds (less if you stim earlier) to unload right next to and kill a HT archives, twilight council, robo support (all have 500 HP/500 SP). Robotics facility only has 450/450 though.
Did you know if you drop marines while the medivac is still moving, they unload spaced apart perfectly so that a psi storm can only hit 2 marines at most? Right click your medivac dropship somewhere, then click the unload command and click on the medivac while it is still moving.
Did you know it takes 19 seconds for a HT to walk from the top right corner of the natural expansion nexus to the top right corner of the main nexus at the bottom position of Shattered Temple?
How long before 20 +1 attack speedlings kill a nexus? l5 seconds.
Are so called KA "warp in storms" good against...
Offense / Raiding Bases: -against spines, cannons, etc. ? No -running away workers? No
Defense: -baneling drops in the middle of your probes? NO -zerglings hold position in the middle of your probes? NO -Red health stimmed bio killing you and all your melee units as they are warped in to defend your base? Yes!! That's fair enough, right?
TL;DR:
A group of stimmed marines can kill a nexus before you can get a HT there if you were not planning for it. That means a group of stimmed marines can kill your HT archives and your twilight council in the time it takes to get HT there to stop them.
That means... warping in HT to storm is not very effective. Chargelots and DTs are more useful.
So again, why nerf KA?
They weren't good defensively, sure. But they're hell strong offensively. Warping in a round of HT when you're about to attack so you have a bunch of storms in 5 seconds? You call that balanced? It's only fair that each race has to wait to get their spellcasters OR spellcasters energy. 50 seconds on infestors, added with the pathogen glands too. Ghosts take a while to pop and have an energy upgrade as well. It was just too strong.
Warpin on the high ground on XNC @ the natural 3rd. Dead SCV's/Drones/Probes. Warpin on the low ground on XNC @ the gold. Dead SCV's/Drones/Probes.
No race should be able to instantly create a spellcaster that can use its strongest spell off of the get-go.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but it's not exactly comparable. For one thing, Protoss is also the only race that has to upgrade its best attack. High Templar do not come with PsiStorm, which seems to be something a lot of people are forgetting. Ghosts come with EMP, Infestors come with Fungal Growth. Those two have to get an upgrade that allows them to cast it right away when they come out, while teching to High Templar takes the longest even without having to upgrade PsiStorm. The drawbacks for teching as Protoss are fairly significant.
On November 05 2011 00:01 KonohaFlash wrote: No, kyhdarian amulet did not make for a balanced game. The one major reason it was removed was the fact that you could wipe out mineral lines with ease. Imagine now, when Protoss have been utilizing warp prisms more effectively, how powerful storm drops would be. Not to mention the fact that if you trade armies with a Terran you can just warp in more ht and cast storm.
The approach blizzard is currently taking with reducing the emp radius is the proper way of fixing pvt. It's emp altogether that is making Protoss suffer so much in engagements and even though your opponent can obviously make more ghosts, you can still spread out your units and not get curbstomped still.
This is NOT a reason they removed it. Storm drops don't get affected at all by KA. I don't see your point here. What made KA so good was protoss could turtle expansions forever with KA + cannons.
You can warp in a high templar and storm immediately, how is this not effected by KA?
Because that drop would be really bad. Terran has 4 sec to escape with scvs... You make hts somewhere in the map where your prism is located and by the time you get to the drop zone they have enough for storm, and you dont have to wait 4 sec fot them to warpin.
What about an infestor drop? It does the same only there is no escape.
Shush! You must know by now that one can only complain and want to nerf T and P harrassment options (bf hellions and templar). Insta killing entire mineral lines baneling drops and infestor oh btw you cant get away even if you did spot me pop up (oh yeah cause i can get to your worker line burrowed btw) must not be mentioned! :D
Personally i hated KA, nerfing emp and looking to buff other elements of toss (gateway) units is the better way to go imo.
I agree with you only in the context that "nerfing emp and looking to buff other elements of toss units" is a correct path now, but I really think they should never have removed KA, why not just nerf it, the problem was INSTANT storms right(as that is the primary Terran complaint)? Nerfing KA would have removed that issue. God that decision really screwed the pooch down the line lol.
EPT
