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On November 05 2011 18:26 GhostFall wrote:
Why was KA removed after just one metagame shift? How many different strategies did Protoss use to beat EMP before Blizzard decided to finally nerf EMP? Why didn't they wait until 5 Terrans were left in the GSL before removing KA?
Blizzard has been incredibly inconsistent and contradictory when it comes to balancing the game. Thors were nerfed immediately after Throzain won the TSL 3, yet it took them forever to figure out that EMP might be overpowered.
In the end, I think the fact is that EMP is overpowered, but so was KA. KA was the one thing that Protoss could rely on to make a non-Colossus build work in the end game vs EMP. And it led to some really interesting games. I wouldn't say Protoss had the major advantage, the game was pretty even at the point of KA removal. The win rate graphs show this, and when you watch old GSL games of Terran vs Protoss (pre KA removal), they feel even at the end game stage, with the seemingly better player winning.
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On November 05 2011 19:13 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:46 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:42 tomatriedes wrote:On November 05 2011 18:23 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote:
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal. Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems. And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor. Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units. And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'. If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm. You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost. This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT. By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg You're just going to ignore the gateway cooldown time? Do you really think toss can literally warp in units every 5 seconds? Of course not. I don't where you got this assumption. Both Terran and Protoss can create a ghost/HT every 50 seconds. Difference is, for every production cycle, Protoss have a HT after 5 seconds, Terran have a ghost after 50 Because the cooldown is part of the protoss production cycle. And it's not true that there are always idle gateways. If you've just warped in units and you want to create a high temp you're going to have to wait for the cooldown to finish. It's disingenuous to act as though protoss is always 5 seonds away from having a high temp ready.
Waiting for the gateway cooldown is exactly the same as a building a ghost, but needing to wait for the previous unit to finish building from the barracks first. In the same way their won't always be idle gateways, there won't always be idle barracks.
It isn't disingenuous, if Protoss has an idle gateway, they are 5 seconds from a HT.
If Terran has an idle barracks, they are 50 seconds from a ghost.
I know I was assuming that Protoss had an idle gateway at the time they wanted to warp in a HT, but I was also assuming Terran had an idle barracks when they wanted to begin building a ghost.
I'm not ignoring the gateway cooldown time, I'm pointing out that the gateway cooldown time occurs after you get the unit, whereas with Terran the waiting period occurs before you get the unit.
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On November 05 2011 19:13 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:46 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:42 tomatriedes wrote:On November 05 2011 18:23 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote:
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal. Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems. And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor. Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units. And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'. If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm. You are forgetting the ghost build time. There is a 50 second build time for ghosts, and a 5 second build time for HT. Assuming the Terran player starts a ghost at the exact same time a Protoss warps in a HT, 50 seconds later, the HT has a storm ready wherever it was warped in/moved after being warped in, and the ghost has an emp at the barracks it was built in. Include the time for the ghost to run to wherver its going and thats a significantly longer time for the ghost. This is definately an advantage to Protoss and HT. By the way, you called me a Terran player, I'm Zerg You're just going to ignore the gateway cooldown time? Do you really think toss can literally warp in units every 5 seconds? Of course not. I don't where you got this assumption. Both Terran and Protoss can create a ghost/HT every 50 seconds. Difference is, for every production cycle, Protoss have a HT after 5 seconds, Terran have a ghost after 50 Because the cooldown is part of the protoss production cycle. And it's not true that there are always idle gateways. If you've just warped in units and you want to create a high temp you're going to have to wait for the cooldown to finish. It's disingenuous to act as though protoss is always 5 seonds away from having a high temp ready.
OK, but it's arguable that the cooldown comes after the warp-in in the production cycle. Also, with KA, if you happen to have an idle warp gate, you can get a Templar after 5 seconds with Storm. However, even if I have an empty Barracks, I still have to wait for 40 seconds for the Ghost to pop out. Moreover, it's not that much of a stretch to imagine the Protoss would have an empty WG or two in preparation for a planned attack/drop.
EDIT: Ninja'd big-time XD
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now that we terrans are not retarded and actually make mass ghosts, i dont think having KA back in the game would be a problem... might actually balance the game out. It was removed because 1 storm can almost end the game for terran and this is still true, but the odds of protoss players getting off that criticalstorm have shot way down. I think putting KA back in the game should be considered by blizzard, maybe put it in PTR but PTR really... doesnt show the game at balanced since 99% of pros dont bother with it.
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KA might have been overpowered but it is pretty drastic to remove the ability from the game. If instant storms 'nullifying' drops were the problem a +20 instead of +25 could have been the solution.
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Believe me I love High Templar, infact they are my favourite unit. I love watching storms land perfectly on huge clumps of bio, especially when that whole ball just explodes from it. Protoss is also my played race so, heres my opinion.
While bringing back KA would certainly help Protoss, it would also overpower them hugely. Yes I am frustrated and annoyed with Terran lately because of how easily they roll over Protoss and how 1 easy to use EMP can shut down a vast amount of units with incredibly expensive tech. I am just biding my time and hoping Blizzard get the balance correct. If they reintroduced KA now, it would firstly make it far easier to defend expansions vs terran. Someone mentioned earlier that KA is likened to a planetary fortress, ie: you better know what your doing if your going to attack my base. However this "planetary fortress" is able to appear almost anywhere in the Protoss' base and land a giant amount of damage right on your army in seconds. Multiple times. KA is more like a... super storm that makes the protoss so hard to attack that you better bring your whole freaking army and be watching it perfectly, ignoring your macro, and also letting the Protoss know exactly where your army is so he can go happily wipe your whole base off the face of the map, or set up a sick ambush, while you try to keep fighting through seemingly endless waves of instant storms.
This is not to mention the offensive capabilities that KA has. Firstly it allows you to hold almost any position on the map where you have a pylon. The enemy darent go near it. It also means that warp prism harass would become stronger. It means the carry space of the Prism could be used on Zealots or DT's which are unloaded to go hacking away at whatever, while the templar are warped in to immidiately storm. Could you imagine a sentry drop, blocking the workers, then warping in HT's to storm them immidiately? I think you'd probably rage quit. You could also phase out whole areas of the enemies own base with the threat of these storms.
I long for a balanced game and to see more Protoss in tournaments again.. but bringing back KA is definitely not the way to go. It would completley wreck the balance in the opposite direction, I am sick of the amount of Terrans at the moment but I dont want to see them all gone. I'd rather not have 20 Protoss in the GSL thanks... (nightmares of PvP...)
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So what....
Terran has to build a ghost for 50 seconds and then has walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells...
Zerg has to build an infestor for 50 seconds and then has to walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells.
But Protoss should be able to warp in a High templar in 5 seconds anywhere on the map and instantly use it's spells?
protoss players...... /facepalm
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On November 05 2011 20:04 doko100 wrote:
So what....
Terran has to build a ghost for 50 seconds and then has walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells...
Zerg has to build an infestor for 50 seconds and then has to walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells.
But Protoss should be able to warp in a High templar in 5 seconds anywhere on the map and instantly use it's spells?
protoss players...... /facepalm
First off, you need either a proxy pylon or a warp prism to do that, and secondly, there's a CD on warp gates, it's not like you can constantly warp in HTs, but I agree, KA was a bit to strong , nerfing it to 15-20 + would've been cool
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We need another visit from Baneling Mom...
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On November 05 2011 20:09 Coal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 20:04 doko100 wrote:
So what....
Terran has to build a ghost for 50 seconds and then has walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells...
Zerg has to build an infestor for 50 seconds and then has to walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells.
But Protoss should be able to warp in a High templar in 5 seconds anywhere on the map and instantly use it's spells?
protoss players...... /facepalm First off, you need either a proxy pylon or a warp prism to do that, and secondly, there's a CD on warp gates, it's not like you can constantly warp in HTs, but I agree, KA was a bit to strong , nerfing it to 15-20 + would've been cool
So what you need a barracks to build a ghost. No shit you need a proxy pylon.... if it's to hard for you to proxy pylons then that's fine but it doesn't change the fact that it was still ridiculously OP. And no, reducing it to 15-20 energy would ahve still been OP. because as it is right now warping in an HT and waiting for it's energy in the middle of the map is still faster than building a ghost and physically walking there.
It was ridiculously imbalanced, protoss players are just being retards as usual.
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Personally I want a damage buff, I never really liked the whole Warpin insta-storm strats protoss were doing. It's very lazy to look at. Make storm powerful against everything especially mech.
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On November 05 2011 20:14 KingAce wrote:
Personally I want a damage buff, I never really liked the whole Warpin insta-storm strats protoss were doing. It's very lazy to look at. Make storm powerful against everything especially mech.
Mech? Protoss really doesn't need help vs. Mech, Mech is awful in TvP, that's the reason nobody ever uses it.
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Maybe it could be re-introduced similar to BW, where it increases max energy to 250 and keeps the same starting %. So a HT would spawn with 62.5 energy. Would also mean that a max energy HT could cast 3 storms instead of 2.
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On November 05 2011 20:09 Coal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 20:04 doko100 wrote:
So what....
Terran has to build a ghost for 50 seconds and then has walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells...
Zerg has to build an infestor for 50 seconds and then has to walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells.
But Protoss should be able to warp in a High templar in 5 seconds anywhere on the map and instantly use it's spells?
protoss players...... /facepalm First off, you need either a proxy pylon or a warp prism to do that, and secondly, there's a CD on warp gates, it's not like you can constantly warp in HTs, but I agree, KA was a bit to strong , nerfing it to 15-20 + would've been cool
Anyone in diamond league and above is more than capable of making a proxy pylon. Sure there is cool down, but practically thats very rarely an impediment to protoss warping in units where-ever and whenever they need them. Especially in max army situations late game when the protoss ends up with 15+ warp gates ready to warp in after the battle.
edit: i want to add warp gates make balancing protoss gateway units extremely difficult, though i don't think wgs should be removed or nerfed
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On November 05 2011 15:11 Bro_Stone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 15:04 GhostFall wrote:On November 05 2011 14:57 Eps wrote:On November 05 2011 11:49 GhostFall wrote:
Yes you can argue warpin storms was very strong against MMM, but why didn't anyone try using mech against protoss? See how good warp in storms is when you have 13 range seige tanks everywhere.
Tanks are rarely used in TvP outside of some well known All-Ins, and some seldom used Mech-oriented strategies. I'd argue that the Tank was balanced for TvT and TvZ. And it is from this that it has become very hard for most players to use them effectively in TvP. So many Protoss units counter Tanks and they often become more detrimental to your own units than the oppositions. Beefy Chargelots taking Tank shots like they were nothing, causing huge splash damage to your own forces. Stalkers blinking on top of Terran's units and letting the Siege Splash wreck their Bio, or forcing Unsieges. Immortals. There's many reasons why we don't see Tanks often in TvP. I didn't say tanks. I said mech. Hellions/Thors/Tanks. And there's absolutely no way for you to say Mech doesn't work against Protoss who went KA. There's also absolutely no way for me to say Mech does work against Protoss who went KA. It's all theorycraft because no one had a chance to do anything about it. No one had a chance to use mech against KA. No one is using mech now, because why use mech when bio is just clearly better because KA doesn't exist anymore? But we can say, that statistically that Protoss is not a balanced matchup against Terran. We can say that EMP should get nerfed to 1.5 radius. Why? Because we have 7 months of data. So why don't we have 7 months of data on KA? Why was it removed so quickly? You really think instant warp in with storm is balanced? Hi look, a 4k terran MMM army that just finished a fight and is in orange/yellow/red, let's just warp in 5 templars and look at that army fall to 0... It was close to impossible to push after winning a huge fight in TvP if the protoss had templar tech back in the days. Had to wait for ghosts
I really dislike this attitude that a lot of posters seem to have. So how are these slow moving HTs going to kill your yellow and red bio army unless you overcommit? All you have to do is either run away if you are busy, or send in stimmed groups of 1 or 2 marauders to take out HTs one at a time if you have a big enough lead.
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On November 05 2011 20:13 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 20:09 Coal wrote:On November 05 2011 20:04 doko100 wrote:
So what....
Terran has to build a ghost for 50 seconds and then has walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells...
Zerg has to build an infestor for 50 seconds and then has to walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells.
But Protoss should be able to warp in a High templar in 5 seconds anywhere on the map and instantly use it's spells?
protoss players...... /facepalm First off, you need either a proxy pylon or a warp prism to do that, and secondly, there's a CD on warp gates, it's not like you can constantly warp in HTs, but I agree, KA was a bit to strong , nerfing it to 15-20 + would've been cool So what you need a barracks to build a ghost. No shit you need a proxy pylon.... if it's to hard for you to proxy pylons then that's fine but it doesn't change the fact that it was still ridiculously OP. And no, reducing it to 15-20 energy would ahve still been OP. because as it is right now warping in an HT and waiting for it's energy in the middle of the map is still faster than building a ghost and physically walking there.It was ridiculously imbalanced, protoss players are just being retards as usual.
That doesnt matter. Terran bio is more cost efficient than gateway units, and thus the protoss NEEDS splash. Whereas terran doesnt really need ghosts to trade efficiently. Ghosts should be slower to get, since they only need to deny storm, for the terran to have an advantage. Protoss not only needs to deny EMP with Feedback, but also land a couple of good storms to be on equal ground with terran bio.
Thats why HTs have to have a shorter deployment time.
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People think that because you can warp in HT it makes up for not having the upgrade and you need to wait the same time before you can cast. But it is not the same because you have to protect the HT during the energy gathering period and it can be EMPed during that time which makes reinforcing with HT impossible and because you need AOE attack with toss going HT early on is to weak to be viable. While that does not make the game unbalanced it removes possible tactics which for me is a mistake. That being said KA was too powerful and needed to be removed, however I believe that it would have been better if HT got something else instead to make them more viable.
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On November 05 2011 00:04 robih wrote:
HT warp in harass would be really really strong
still worse than bf hellions though
i never understood why they removed it, same for the VR speed
I dunno i dont miss the irritating proxy stargate into ray harass builds one bit 
Wheras KA going has really made protoss boring for me - id rather not make lots fo colossus, just 1-2 of them really.
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As a terran player , I would like to see more protoss in gsl and other competition. So bored of tvt.
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On November 05 2011 20:51 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 20:13 doko100 wrote:On November 05 2011 20:09 Coal wrote:On November 05 2011 20:04 doko100 wrote:
So what....
Terran has to build a ghost for 50 seconds and then has walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells...
Zerg has to build an infestor for 50 seconds and then has to walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells.
But Protoss should be able to warp in a High templar in 5 seconds anywhere on the map and instantly use it's spells?
protoss players...... /facepalm First off, you need either a proxy pylon or a warp prism to do that, and secondly, there's a CD on warp gates, it's not like you can constantly warp in HTs, but I agree, KA was a bit to strong , nerfing it to 15-20 + would've been cool So what you need a barracks to build a ghost. No shit you need a proxy pylon.... if it's to hard for you to proxy pylons then that's fine but it doesn't change the fact that it was still ridiculously OP. And no, reducing it to 15-20 energy would ahve still been OP. because as it is right now warping in an HT and waiting for it's energy in the middle of the map is still faster than building a ghost and physically walking there.It was ridiculously imbalanced, protoss players are just being retards as usual. That doesnt matter. Terran bio is more cost efficient than gateway units, and thus the protoss NEEDS splash. Whereas terran doesnt really need ghosts to trade efficiently. Ghosts should be slower to get, since they only need to deny storm, for the terran to have an advantage. Protoss not only needs to deny EMP with Feedback, but also land a couple of good storms to be on equal ground with terran bio. Thats why HTs have to have a shorter deployment time.
This is so wrong-minded
Terran bio is NOT more cost efficient than gateway units.
Terran bio with MEDIVACS can be more cost-efficient, so long as they engage properly...and gateway units CAN be more cost-efficient so long as they engage properly.
The plain truth is that good forcefields with zealots will destroy any Terran bio far more efficiently than vice versa.
The problem is that Protosses mistakenly believe that vanilla gateway units are on the same level of tech as upped bio plus medivacs, totally ignoring the time/cost investment of stim, cs and conc shells, and the fact that medivacs are tier 3. Then they complain that Terran gets better tier 1, when the bio can no longer really be considered tier 1.
Protoss does NOT have to land good storms to be on equal ground. They just need to stop Terran from kiting Zealots. If both armies a-click big balls of units into each other there is no doubt that the Protoss will come out ahead.
There is also a fairly ridiculous idea propagated by tosses that EMP is better than storm. This is ridiculous. Even ignoring all the side benefits of storm (EMP drop anyone?), in a straight-up battle it is clearly superior:
- Yes EMP removes up to 100 shields, but how many units have 100 shields? Much of the EMP damage is overkill.
- Yes EMP has the potential to deal more damage than storm, but Protoss units have higher hitpoints meaning more damage is required. Storm one-shots marines and 2-shots marauders. Remember: Protoss = low DPS high HP while Terran = high DPS low HP. EMP fits this paradigm while Storm goes against it, to the benefit of Protoss.
- Storm is effective at any point in a battle. EMP is only useful at the beginning. There is no point in EMPing a half dead army while vice versa, a storm is devastating.
- Terran units are smaller, making them more susceptible to AOE.
- EMP does not actually deal damage, it only removes shields/energy. Protoss shields regenerate automatically, Terran needs to invest in expensive medivacs to mitigate the effect.
- Too many EMPs mean wasted money/supply/rax time. Until the enemy is dead a Protoss can never have too many storms.
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EPT
