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On November 05 2011 19:23 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:26 GhostFall wrote:
Why was KA removed after just one metagame shift? How many different strategies did Protoss use to beat EMP before Blizzard decided to finally nerf EMP? Why didn't they wait until 5 Terrans were left in the GSL before removing KA? Blizzard has been incredibly inconsistent and contradictory when it comes to balancing the game. Thors were nerfed immediately after Throzain won the TSL 3, yet it took them forever to figure out that EMP might be overpowered. In the end, I think the fact is that EMP is overpowered, but so was KA. KA was the one thing that Protoss could rely on to make a non-Colossus build work in the end game vs EMP. And it led to some really interesting games. I wouldn't say Protoss had the major advantage, the game was pretty even at the point of KA removal. The win rate graphs show this, and when you watch old GSL games of Terran vs Protoss (pre KA removal), they feel even at the end game stage, with the seemingly better player winning.
Actually Thors were nerfed after Thorzain beat MC, Naniwa didn't have to deal with any Thor strategies in the finals.
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if HTs get KA back they really should be trained from archives or are unable to be physically warped in from gateways.
Also i feel its pretty stupid to look at the game balance from korean code S
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On November 05 2011 21:29 Tuk wrote:
Also i feel its pretty stupid to look at the game balance from korean code S
Yeah I agree. Let's look at the game balance from Bronze to Gold, because that's where the majority of the playerbase lies. Who cares about high level play, really?
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voidray speed was overpowered, could destroy the opponents main before their army arrived at your base. (especially in pvp you could snipe some nexus and retreat without taking damage.) People never used it greatly (well i won every pvp with them especially on scrap lol.) But people started to use it in the more air favored maps and ground couldn't keep up and air like vikings had serius problem.
KA was just something that was to much of an advantage over the more expensive casters (combined with colossi no one had a chance back then, which triggered the KA nerf). And people didn't had enough micro to abuse the 0.5/1,5 range of emp really. Even mass ghost died to feedback spam which is now a little different.
But ghosts are more a problem for the attacking toss army, like storm is for an attacking terran army. Templars actually do fine against ghosts costwise, though i would still like 2 radius on the other spells and templars with the range advantage, but oh well.
And since ghosts generally die first in an engagement (they have to be in front to prevent the storms), warped in templars could indeed just destroy the terran army afterwards, while the zealots are tanking. But its not really a problem having hts in the back anyway with 2 storms and a feedback ready. Just wait till the ghosts are dead and then move in for the killing blow, having ghosts in the back won't help against such storms. Kiting does though since hts are slow. But a good player would use a speed prism.
Generally it works quiet well. And if they kill your army they can't push since there are 1 or 2 canons guarding a templar. (2 canons and a templar are really good against damaged bio).
I personally like to storm the medivac cloud and retreat my army for a sec, most of the time they stop kiting allowing you to kill all medivacs leaving a red hp terran army, that won't be able to deal with colossi, because no vikings or no stim.
But ghosts are only a problem at pro level, where you won't get out 1 storm unimportant how hard you try. Ghosts just need a terrible micro, but it seems not enough. (or other races are to lazy with their own casters)
Prism shields were btw a first try to adress the ghost issue, but it was unused so they went with a nerf.
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On November 05 2011 21:27 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 19:23 BronzeKnee wrote:On November 05 2011 18:26 GhostFall wrote:
Why was KA removed after just one metagame shift? How many different strategies did Protoss use to beat EMP before Blizzard decided to finally nerf EMP? Why didn't they wait until 5 Terrans were left in the GSL before removing KA? Blizzard has been incredibly inconsistent and contradictory when it comes to balancing the game. Thors were nerfed immediately after Throzain won the TSL 3, yet it took them forever to figure out that EMP might be overpowered. In the end, I think the fact is that EMP is overpowered, but so was KA. KA was the one thing that Protoss could rely on to make a non-Colossus build work in the end game vs EMP. And it led to some really interesting games. I wouldn't say Protoss had the major advantage, the game was pretty even at the point of KA removal. The win rate graphs show this, and when you watch old GSL games of Terran vs Protoss (pre KA removal), they feel even at the end game stage, with the seemingly better player winning. Actually Thors were nerfed after Thorzain beat MC, Naniwa didn't have to deal with any Thor strategies in the finals.
People seem to forget that Thors were buffed by Blizzard earlier. The response to Thorzain beating MC was not a nerf, it was a revert back to their original function.
When did this revert occur? Patch 1.3.3.
Guess when HT KA was taken out? Patch 1.3.0
They first made it so thors could not be countered by templar tech by removing energy from them. But then once Blizzard nerfed the templar tech route heavily by taking out KA, they realized there needed to be incentive to still use HTs, so they made the Thor vulnerable to high templar once again.
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On November 04 2011 23:53 ZeromuS wrote:
Im not sure if KA made for a more balanced game but it presents us with a BW situation. Where one thing is really strong for one race the other race has a similarly strong spell/thing which provided for very very interesting back and forth situations.
I used to liken KA to a planetary fortress. If you are going to attack my base you damn well better know it and be prepared for an attack - not just sending small numbers of units.
What you're talking about with not sending small numbers of units to harass because you can't encourages deathball syndrome and we should be moving away from that.
Besides Templar were fine in BW without amulet. They're definitely fine now.
I wouldn't mind protoss having KA as long as they had to sacrifice something for it like making them only about to be built by gateways and not warpgates. Also the fact that the protoss already have the Collosus in their arsenal makes having something like KA very much not needed.
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On November 05 2011 21:25 _Search_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 20:51 IVN wrote:On November 05 2011 20:13 doko100 wrote:On November 05 2011 20:09 Coal wrote:On November 05 2011 20:04 doko100 wrote:
So what....
Terran has to build a ghost for 50 seconds and then has walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells...
Zerg has to build an infestor for 50 seconds and then has to walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells.
But Protoss should be able to warp in a High templar in 5 seconds anywhere on the map and instantly use it's spells?
protoss players...... /facepalm First off, you need either a proxy pylon or a warp prism to do that, and secondly, there's a CD on warp gates, it's not like you can constantly warp in HTs, but I agree, KA was a bit to strong , nerfing it to 15-20 + would've been cool So what you need a barracks to build a ghost. No shit you need a proxy pylon.... if it's to hard for you to proxy pylons then that's fine but it doesn't change the fact that it was still ridiculously OP. And no, reducing it to 15-20 energy would ahve still been OP. because as it is right now warping in an HT and waiting for it's energy in the middle of the map is still faster than building a ghost and physically walking there.It was ridiculously imbalanced, protoss players are just being retards as usual. That doesnt matter. Terran bio is more cost efficient than gateway units, and thus the protoss NEEDS splash. Whereas terran doesnt really need ghosts to trade efficiently. Ghosts should be slower to get, since they only need to deny storm, for the terran to have an advantage. Protoss not only needs to deny EMP with Feedback, but also land a couple of good storms to be on equal ground with terran bio. Thats why HTs have to have a shorter deployment time. This is so wrong-minded Terran bio is NOT more cost efficient than gateway units.. Bio even w/o medivacs is more cost efficient than gateway units. And with medivacs it is more cost efficient than a composition consisting of chargelots and blink stalkers.
On November 05 2011 21:25 _Search_ wrote:Terran bio with MEDIVACS can be more cost-efficient, so long as they engage properly...and gateway units CAN be more cost-efficient so long as they engage properly.. Assuming noone has a clear positional advantage in the engagement, bio is superior.
I cant believe that we are discussing this. Its so retarded. There is a reason why storm and colossi are in the game. And that reason being, gateway units SUCK.
On November 05 2011 21:25 _Search_ wrote:The plain truth is that good forcefields with zealots will destroy any Terran bio far more efficiently than vice versa. That is a rare occasion, and is dependent on the terran player failing hard.
On November 05 2011 21:25 _Search_ wrote:The problem is that Protosses mistakenly believe that vanilla gateway units are on the same level of tech as upped bio plus medivacs, totally ignoring the time/cost investment of stim, cs and conc shells, and the fact that medivacs are tier 3. Then they complain that Terran gets better tier 1, when the bio can no longer really be considered tier 1. They are on the same level as upped bio w/o medivacs. And even in that situation gate units fail hard.
On November 05 2011 21:25 _Search_ wrote:Protoss does NOT have to land good storms to be on equal ground. They just need to stop Terran from kiting Zealots. If both armies a-click big balls of units into each other there is no doubt that the Protoss will come out ahead. Only noobs play like that, and balance at that level of play doesnt concern me.
Stopping stimmed bio from kiting zealots is not a trivial matter. Terran gamers such as yourself are getting accustomed to brilliant FF micro, and think it involves 0 skill, while in reality it is much harder to do than kite. Kitting is just a repetition of ultra easy tasks, while casting perfect FFs requires precision and fast reflexes. Its the difference between getting spot on shots with a sniper rifle and riddling something with holes with a minigun.
On November 05 2011 21:25 _Search_ wrote:There is also a fairly ridiculous idea propagated by tosses that EMP is better than storm. This is ridiculous. Even ignoring all the side benefits of storm (EMP drop anyone?), in a straight-up battle it is clearly superior:
- Yes EMP removes up to 100 shields, but how many units have 100 shields? Much of the EMP damage is overkill.
- Yes EMP has the potential to deal more damage than storm, but Protoss units have higher hitpoints meaning more damage is required. Storm one-shots marines and 2-shots marauders. Remember: Protoss = low DPS high HP while Terran = high DPS low HP. EMP fits this paradigm while Storm goes against it, to the benefit of Protoss.
- Storm is effective at any point in a battle. EMP is only useful at the beginning. There is no point in EMPing a half dead army while vice versa, a storm is devastating.
- Terran units are smaller, making them more susceptible to AOE.
- EMP does not actually deal damage, it only removes shields/energy. Protoss shields regenerate automatically, Terran needs to invest in expensive medivacs to mitigate the effect.
- Too many EMPs mean wasted money/supply/rax time. Until the enemy is dead a Protoss can never have too many storms.
EMP is better in the context of the terran race, than storm is in the context of the protoss race. F.e. EMP doesnt need to be able to kill workers, when you can put 8 rines in a medivac, and have a much more potent harassing tool, than the protoss will ever have. 8 rines + madivac is also cheaper than 2 HTs + prism, and has the potential to do just as much damage.
1) EMP does maximum damage all the time. Hitting a stalkers means that you are doing 80hp damage per unit. That is more than storm will do in 99% of situations. EMP damage also cannot be prevented through micro on the part of the protoss player.
2) No, more damage is not required, since toss units are based on the paradigm of high HP, low DPS. Bio is more than capable to destroy gate units w/o EMP. (with its high DPS, and high speed after stim)
3) EMP does not need to be effective after the first round of EMPs land, since it deals damage instantly. Storm deals damage every time, because it is not instant, and can be microed out of. Most of the times storm does maybe 20 damage, because the terran has reacted immediately, while the first EMP does up to 100 damage in an instant, but most of the time 50-80. Thats better than storm on average.
4) EMP actually deals damage, since shields are not "extra" but part of the HP of protoss units. Your argument is retarded.
5) Thats why you make 8 Ghosts and can EMP a maxed out protoss army perfectly. Than you stim, and he cannot retreat, because bio is much faster, and there are no FFs left due to no energy. He is forced to fight, even though he has just suffered several 1000 HP damage. Would like to see storm force an unfavourable engagement like that.
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Canada13389 Posts
On November 05 2011 21:25 _Search_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 20:51 IVN wrote:On November 05 2011 20:13 doko100 wrote:On November 05 2011 20:09 Coal wrote:On November 05 2011 20:04 doko100 wrote:
So what....
Terran has to build a ghost for 50 seconds and then has walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells...
Zerg has to build an infestor for 50 seconds and then has to walk it across the map to be able to use it's spells.
But Protoss should be able to warp in a High templar in 5 seconds anywhere on the map and instantly use it's spells?
protoss players...... /facepalm First off, you need either a proxy pylon or a warp prism to do that, and secondly, there's a CD on warp gates, it's not like you can constantly warp in HTs, but I agree, KA was a bit to strong , nerfing it to 15-20 + would've been cool So what you need a barracks to build a ghost. No shit you need a proxy pylon.... if it's to hard for you to proxy pylons then that's fine but it doesn't change the fact that it was still ridiculously OP. And no, reducing it to 15-20 energy would ahve still been OP. because as it is right now warping in an HT and waiting for it's energy in the middle of the map is still faster than building a ghost and physically walking there.It was ridiculously imbalanced, protoss players are just being retards as usual. That doesnt matter. Terran bio is more cost efficient than gateway units, and thus the protoss NEEDS splash. Whereas terran doesnt really need ghosts to trade efficiently. Ghosts should be slower to get, since they only need to deny storm, for the terran to have an advantage. Protoss not only needs to deny EMP with Feedback, but also land a couple of good storms to be on equal ground with terran bio. Thats why HTs have to have a shorter deployment time. This is so wrong-minded Terran bio is NOT more cost efficient than gateway units. Terran bio with MEDIVACS can be more cost-efficient, so long as they engage properly...and gateway units CAN be more cost-efficient so long as they engage properly. The plain truth is that good forcefields with zealots will destroy any Terran bio far more efficiently than vice versa. The problem is that Protosses mistakenly believe that vanilla gateway units are on the same level of tech as upped bio plus medivacs, totally ignoring the time/cost investment of stim, cs and conc shells, and the fact that medivacs are tier 3. Then they complain that Terran gets better tier 1, when the bio can no longer really be considered tier 1. Protoss does NOT have to land good storms to be on equal ground. They just need to stop Terran from kiting Zealots. If both armies a-click big balls of units into each other there is no doubt that the Protoss will come out ahead. There is also a fairly ridiculous idea propagated by tosses that EMP is better than storm. This is ridiculous. Even ignoring all the side benefits of storm (EMP drop anyone?), in a straight-up battle it is clearly superior: - Yes EMP removes up to 100 shields, but how many units have 100 shields? Much of the EMP damage is overkill. - Yes EMP has the potential to deal more damage than storm, but Protoss units have higher hitpoints meaning more damage is required. Storm one-shots marines and 2-shots marauders. Remember: Protoss = low DPS high HP while Terran = high DPS low HP. EMP fits this paradigm while Storm goes against it, to the benefit of Protoss. - Storm is effective at any point in a battle. EMP is only useful at the beginning. There is no point in EMPing a half dead army while vice versa, a storm is devastating. - Terran units are smaller, making them more susceptible to AOE. - EMP does not actually deal damage, it only removes shields/energy. Protoss shields regenerate automatically, Terran needs to invest in expensive medivacs to mitigate the effect. - Too many EMPs mean wasted money/supply/rax time. Until the enemy is dead a Protoss can never have too many storms.
You've never played protoss have you?
- I understand that bio alone isnt that much better than gateway units
- When terran has medivacs of course I need AoE. Timings are build around this fact.
- EMP however does basically shred the army. Its instant, and with a radius of 2 you can spam mass emps and remove half of my army's health for energy. Even if I try to move the damage you did is guaranteed.
- shields on regen when Toss units have been out of battle for a period of time
- without energy there is no way to prevent terran from kiting anyway so terran can many marauder conc shell kite their way to victory after mass emps.
Its easy to have single point counter points. You need to remember there is an interaction here and many many protoss armies have lost to mass emps in the past at all levels so please try to be cognizant of this fact.
Its not as bad as KA was when KA was seriously abused but at the same time without KA or an energy upgrade of any sort HTs just aren't that good or as good as collossus anymore.
The point of protoss is warp in to have an army anywhere basically. Its a race mechanic. Going for high templar basically goes against this mechanic now. I want an HT warp in ... wait. The cooldown is taken up and the cost of 2 HTs who can't attack is huge. I would rather be defending and waiting for a collossus (chronoed) and have the WG available to warp in units that can fight now than have units that can fight later, less cost effectively than collossus.
Without a faster storm or an instant storm HTs just dont mesh well with the WG mechanic and this causes problems not to mention the fact emp makes them and the archons they eventually become useless.
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1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
2) 6 months of data of high level tournament play on the international level showed KA was not imbalanced at all, and in fact was the key and pivotal factor that prevented Protoss from being absolutely steam rolled by Terran's drops/bio pressure/efficient army trading. This nullifies every single KA "was overpowered" argument. KA at its best provided Protoss about a 50% win percentage, and this was before the advent of splitting units, kiting, and heavy usage of mass EMPs.
3) Blizzard's balance team (which is predominantly ran by David Kim) makes some really idiotic decisions. They simply don't think out their changes enough, nor do they look at the long term affects of their changes. KA was absolutely necessary for Protoss to defend against drops late game, and brought far more positives from an entertainment and balance value. If they felt KA was too strong against Terran, they simply could have buffed EMP to it's old radius from the beta (I bet none of you Terran whiners actually knew EMP was even stronger in the beta) to compensate.
4) Blizzard is too idiotic also in their design. The way they balance is to MAKE races fit into certain pictures that they want them to fit in. They WANT Zerg to be able to mass expand, mass units, and swarm people. They WANT Terran to use bio in EVERY single match-up. They WANT Protoss to be the deathball high tech race. All of their balance changes are revolved around these 3 design philosophies around each race. Rather than letting players make their own choices on what units to use, Blizzard continues to nerf/change units around in order to pigeon hole people into certain strategies that they feel best fit their idea of how the game should look like. It's bad for the game, and it honestly needs to stop.
Pretty much anyone arguing that KA was bad for the game / imbalanced / broken / etc. is simply wrong. A year of statistics no matter how badly compiled it is (and it is not, I've looked at how he's compiled his numbers, and for the most part he's done a solid job), is FAR, FAR, FAR more objective than anyone's opinions, even that of a professional Starcraft 2 player. Hard numbers simply do not lie. Storm itself was balanced around the fact that KA existed, and Blizzard has yet to buff Storm at all (which is a far, far, far shittier spell than EMP or Fungal Growth since you can actually dodge the damage it does). Providing say a BW size Storm would make HT ALOT more attractive as an option, since EMPs are so obscenely strong at the moment.
For literally 6 months not a single Terran player ever cried about KA. The crying about KA only came when Blizzard announced its removal simply out of the blue.
On a separate note, I would also like to bring to everyone's attention that even if KA was overpowered (and it was not, the win rates support my position in this argument, and 6 months of statistics is far more compelling evidence than anyone can come up with), it brought far more positives to the game than negatives. With KA in the game, Protoss was able to play a far more dynamic and exciting game to watch, and it made the game simply more enjoyable. If it was deemed overpowered, they should have simply brought the other casters of the other races up to speed, or perhaps buff other units in other ways to compensate (such as making mech actually viable against Protoss, *cough cough*).
Right now, the HT by far is the shittiest caster in the game. Infestors are like a thousand times better with far more utility and game breaking abilities at all points in the game (NP, Infestor Terran timing attacks, Fungal Growth lockdowns), and Ghosts are being utilized heavily and are showing how effective they truly are.
The balance changes/design changes that are being done by Blizzard have actually created a stagnate and undynamic game. One race has literally turned into a steaming pile of shit that is forced to all-in / run gimmick strategies nearly every time to even stand a chance of winning. Blizzard still hasn't addressed how Terran has literally dominated the landscape of SC2 for an entire year (I'm sorry, as stated before, this is not a statistical anomaly, it simply is virtually impossible unless one race is simply better). People wonder why games like League of Legends, DotA 2, etc. are starting to get higher payouts and more coverage. Well guess what? Maybe people are tired of seeing a broken design/imbalances/boring non-entertaining matches/etc.? If you want SC2 to succeed, you need to keep the mechanics that make the game interesting. KA was one of those mechanics. The removal of it was totally unnecessary, and has resulted in Protoss becoming the 3rd wheel at the moment.
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i think this sums it up perfectly.
nobody talked about KA,
same for Flux Vanes...
both somehow were OPin the discussions the moment blizzard hinted its removal....
go and find any topic regarding those upgrades beeing OP, there is none in this forum, prior to the patch.
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On November 05 2011 18:35 HystericaLaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:33 DrGreen wrote:On November 05 2011 18:22 _Search_ wrote:On November 05 2011 18:18 ander wrote:On November 05 2011 18:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 05 2011 18:04 DrGreen wrote:On November 05 2011 17:57 HystericaLaughter wrote:
Secondly, lets assume that the inclusion of KA does balance the matchup. I still support its removal. I don't like the idea of Terran being overpowered against Protoss, so to compensate Protoss is given an overpowered spellcaster upgrade. KA should not be reintroduced to try and balance the matchup, something should be done about Protoss' inherent weaknesses, or Terran's strengths.
The reason KA had to be removed was because of the warp gate mechanic. It made HT far too potent being able to instantly cast their primary spell anywhere on the map.
As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard. Sure, now the time taken to cast their primary spell is equal at 50 seconds, but HT are still warped in and don't have a build time; they spawn anywhere on the map not next to a production building, and they can be warped in to instantly cast feedback if required, or morph an archon.
TL;DR: No, read it all Protoss' inherent weaknesses is dying after one engagement because of marauder/medivacs are unstoppable with warp-in of 5-10 gateway units. That weakness wasnt there before KA removal. Simply change HT warp time to 10 or even 15 seconds would fix ur, and all the other terrans problems. And ye.. lol @ HT being better then ghost/infestor. Are you talking about warping in storms to deal with drops? Because that was never effective they are easy to dodge with small groups of units. And read my response to the 'I lol'd' guy. I didn't say they are better, I said the warp-in mechanic is an advantage HT has over spawning at a barracks or hatchery. 'As is, they still have an advantage over the Zerg and Terran casters in this regard'. If you were talking about HT's with KA, then i would agree. I fail to see how HT's spawning anywhere on the map is an advantage, other than to defend a medivac drop i guess (which would never happen). So what, they still need to wait 50 seconds before they cast a storm. I bet that the time it takes a ghost to run from a barracks to the place it wants to cast an EMP would be a comparable amount of time to a HT warping directly there and then waiting the 50 seconds for a storm. ...which is a perfect comparison because ghosts also take 5 seconds to build. /facepalm Not like u need EMP to get back into the game after the big engagement. U have bunkers, PFs and MMM for that. Not what we are talking about. We aren't talking about recovery after losing your army, just the way the spellcasters function and when they can cast their spells etc. Irrelevant point is irrelevant
Thats exactly what we are talking about. Comparing spellcasters leads us to nowhere, we need to compare races.
edit: There arent any topics about Flux Vanes and we see KA thread once in a month or so, whcih only tells us that removing it wasnt really the best idea, and that KA made the game more interesting then now.
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On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote:
1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
2) 6 months of data of high level tournament play on the international level showed KA was not imbalanced at all, and in fact was the key and pivotal factor that prevented Protoss from being absolutely steam rolled by Terran's drops/bio pressure/efficient army trading. This nullifies every single KA "was overpowered" argument. KA at its best provided Protoss about a 50% win percentage, and this was before the advent of splitting units, kiting, and heavy usage of mass EMPs.
3) Blizzard's balance team (which is predominantly ran by David Kim) makes some really idiotic decisions. They simply don't think out their changes enough, nor do they look at the long term affects of their changes. KA was absolutely necessary for Protoss to defend against drops late game, and brought far more positives from an entertainment and balance value. If they felt KA was too strong against Terran, they simply could have buffed EMP to it's old radius from the beta (I bet none of you Terran whiners actually knew EMP was even stronger in the beta) to compensate.
4) Blizzard is too idiotic also in their design. The way they balance is to MAKE races fit into certain pictures that they want them to fit in. They WANT Zerg to be able to mass expand, mass units, and swarm people. They WANT Terran to use bio in EVERY single match-up. They WANT Protoss to be the deathball high tech race. All of their balance changes are revolved around these 3 design philosophies around each race. Rather than letting players make their own choices on what units to use, Blizzard continues to nerf/change units around in order to pigeon hole people into certain strategies that they feel best fit their idea of how the game should look like. It's bad for the game, and it honestly needs to stop.
Pretty much anyone arguing that KA was bad for the game / imbalanced / broken / etc. is simply wrong. A year of statistics no matter how badly compiled it is (and it is not, I've looked at how he's compiled his numbers, and for the most part he's done a solid job), is FAR, FAR, FAR more objective than anyone's opinions, even that of a professional Starcraft 2 player. Hard numbers simply do not lie. Storm itself was balanced around the fact that KA existed, and Blizzard has yet to buff Storm at all (which is a far, far, far shittier spell than EMP or Fungal Growth since you can actually dodge the damage it does). Providing say a BW size Storm would make HT ALOT more attractive as an option, since EMPs are so obscenely strong at the moment.
For literally 6 months not a single Terran player ever cried about KA. The crying about KA only came when Blizzard announced its removal simply out of the blue.
On a separate note, I would also like to bring to everyone's attention that even if KA was overpowered (and it was not, the win rates support my position in this argument, and 6 months of statistics is far more compelling evidence than anyone can come up with), it brought far more positives to the game than negatives. With KA in the game, Protoss was able to play a far more dynamic and exciting game to watch, and it made the game simply more enjoyable. If it was deemed overpowered, they should have simply brought the other casters of the other races up to speed, or perhaps buff other units in other ways to compensate (such as making mech actually viable against Protoss, *cough cough*).
Right now, the HT by far is the shittiest caster in the game. Infestors are like a thousand times better with far more utility and game breaking abilities at all points in the game (NP, Infestor Terran timing attacks, Fungal Growth lockdowns), and Ghosts are being utilized heavily and are showing how effective they truly are.
The balance changes/design changes that are being done by Blizzard have actually created a stagnate and undynamic game. One race has literally turned into a steaming pile of shit that is forced to all-in / run gimmick strategies nearly every time to even stand a chance of winning. Blizzard still hasn't addressed how Terran has literally dominated the landscape of SC2 for an entire year (I'm sorry, as stated before, this is not a statistical anomaly, it simply is virtually impossible unless one race is simply better). People wonder why games like League of Legends, DotA 2, etc. are starting to get higher payouts and more coverage. Well guess what? Maybe people are tired of seeing a broken design/imbalances/boring non-entertaining matches/etc.? If you want SC2 to succeed, you need to keep the mechanics that make the game interesting. KA was one of those mechanics. The removal of it was totally unnecessary, and has resulted in Protoss becoming the 3rd wheel at the moment.
Well put and well referenced. I couldn't have explained it any better.
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On November 06 2011 02:56 zanmat0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote:
1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
2) 6 months of data of high level tournament play on the international level showed KA was not imbalanced at all, and in fact was the key and pivotal factor that prevented Protoss from being absolutely steam rolled by Terran's drops/bio pressure/efficient army trading. This nullifies every single KA "was overpowered" argument. KA at its best provided Protoss about a 50% win percentage, and this was before the advent of splitting units, kiting, and heavy usage of mass EMPs.
3) Blizzard's balance team (which is predominantly ran by David Kim) makes some really idiotic decisions. They simply don't think out their changes enough, nor do they look at the long term affects of their changes. KA was absolutely necessary for Protoss to defend against drops late game, and brought far more positives from an entertainment and balance value. If they felt KA was too strong against Terran, they simply could have buffed EMP to it's old radius from the beta (I bet none of you Terran whiners actually knew EMP was even stronger in the beta) to compensate.
4) Blizzard is too idiotic also in their design. The way they balance is to MAKE races fit into certain pictures that they want them to fit in. They WANT Zerg to be able to mass expand, mass units, and swarm people. They WANT Terran to use bio in EVERY single match-up. They WANT Protoss to be the deathball high tech race. All of their balance changes are revolved around these 3 design philosophies around each race. Rather than letting players make their own choices on what units to use, Blizzard continues to nerf/change units around in order to pigeon hole people into certain strategies that they feel best fit their idea of how the game should look like. It's bad for the game, and it honestly needs to stop.
Pretty much anyone arguing that KA was bad for the game / imbalanced / broken / etc. is simply wrong. A year of statistics no matter how badly compiled it is (and it is not, I've looked at how he's compiled his numbers, and for the most part he's done a solid job), is FAR, FAR, FAR more objective than anyone's opinions, even that of a professional Starcraft 2 player. Hard numbers simply do not lie. Storm itself was balanced around the fact that KA existed, and Blizzard has yet to buff Storm at all (which is a far, far, far shittier spell than EMP or Fungal Growth since you can actually dodge the damage it does). Providing say a BW size Storm would make HT ALOT more attractive as an option, since EMPs are so obscenely strong at the moment.
For literally 6 months not a single Terran player ever cried about KA. The crying about KA only came when Blizzard announced its removal simply out of the blue.
On a separate note, I would also like to bring to everyone's attention that even if KA was overpowered (and it was not, the win rates support my position in this argument, and 6 months of statistics is far more compelling evidence than anyone can come up with), it brought far more positives to the game than negatives. With KA in the game, Protoss was able to play a far more dynamic and exciting game to watch, and it made the game simply more enjoyable. If it was deemed overpowered, they should have simply brought the other casters of the other races up to speed, or perhaps buff other units in other ways to compensate (such as making mech actually viable against Protoss, *cough cough*).
Right now, the HT by far is the shittiest caster in the game. Infestors are like a thousand times better with far more utility and game breaking abilities at all points in the game (NP, Infestor Terran timing attacks, Fungal Growth lockdowns), and Ghosts are being utilized heavily and are showing how effective they truly are.
The balance changes/design changes that are being done by Blizzard have actually created a stagnate and undynamic game. One race has literally turned into a steaming pile of shit that is forced to all-in / run gimmick strategies nearly every time to even stand a chance of winning. Blizzard still hasn't addressed how Terran has literally dominated the landscape of SC2 for an entire year (I'm sorry, as stated before, this is not a statistical anomaly, it simply is virtually impossible unless one race is simply better). People wonder why games like League of Legends, DotA 2, etc. are starting to get higher payouts and more coverage. Well guess what? Maybe people are tired of seeing a broken design/imbalances/boring non-entertaining matches/etc.? If you want SC2 to succeed, you need to keep the mechanics that make the game interesting. KA was one of those mechanics. The removal of it was totally unnecessary, and has resulted in Protoss becoming the 3rd wheel at the moment. Well put and well referenced. I couldn't have explained it any better.
I disagree with his last paragraph, Terran hasn't dominated the landscape, Terran has done well in the GSL and other than that it close enough for each race to be irrelevant. The reason why Terran is doing so well at the top end is because there is much more to do and improve upon as a Terran, but once you break the ability to utilize it, you can do way more than P/Z counterparts, but the exchange is that its alot more difficult to utilize earlier.
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On November 05 2011 00:05 Tictock wrote:Yes I think KA was rather OP because warp in storms are just too damaging and versatile. It only takes about 20-30s for a HT to get the energy it needs from warpin till Storm which adds a slight amount of planning the P has to do. Trying to base this argument off one game is pretty silly imo, even with the old game (which is how many months old? plus hasn't there been a ton of other balance changes?) Show nested quote +Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT? Really? You think the most recent patch qualifies as "wildly game changing patches"? This has to be one of the least game changing Patch for SC2 yet, Emp radius nerf is the biggest change and P's will now have an extra handfull of resources when powering upgrades (a piddly amount, but a nice bonus nonetheless). Overall I've found the patches pretty tame with the exception of a few big tweaks (such as WG nerf, ramp vision, Neral Nerf). I think your argument is just too flimsy, and I think most people will agree that KA was OP.
I had just made my own half a4 post when I realised this post kind of summed it up. The only thing I'd like to add is that KA was bad design wise, and it's better buffing other things than implementing it again if protoss is underpowered. Because simply put it was not fine that protosses could come back from 50 food deficifits after a fight without using any kind of harass but simply warping in chargelots and storms.
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no.no.no.no.no.
KA was easily the worst designed spell in the entire game. You do realize it was impossible to drop with them just being able to warp in, feedback, and then the other one storm? two zealots cleans up the pathetic remains. Who cares if the games were more "even" at the time, it was even in a way that was ridiculous. 1-1-1 pushes are not something that is even a big deal anymore. I just watched MC smash through that shit 3 games in a row. I do think Protoss could use a slight buff to the HT, maybe +1 range to feedback?
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On November 06 2011 03:27 Chinchillin wrote:
no.no.no.no.no.
KA was easily the worst designed spell in the entire game. You do realize it was impossible to drop with them just being able to warp in, feedback, and then the other one storm? two zealots cleans up the pathetic remains. Who cares if the games were more "even" at the time, it was even in a way that was ridiculous. 1-1-1 pushes are not something that is even a big deal anymore. I just watched MC smash through that shit 3 games in a row. I do think Protoss could use a slight buff to the HT, maybe +1 range to feedback?
So what I get from this is, that win percentage doesn't matter, who cares that pvt has been terran favored for the past few month in a way that I would not call balanced, while it has been balanced while KA was still in. And it's a bad thing that a allin strategy doesn't work anymore? Really? Feedback range is not your issue when EMP does about 1k damage and if you are lucky enough to get storms of they can actually walk out of it.
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On November 06 2011 00:29 superstartran wrote:
1) Anyone arguing that Barracks units are not more cost efficient than Gateway units in a toe to toe fight should honestly stop posting here. You are simply wrong.
2) 6 months of data of high level tournament play on the international level showed KA was not imbalanced at all, and in fact was the key and pivotal factor that prevented Protoss from being absolutely steam rolled by Terran's drops/bio pressure/efficient army trading. This nullifies every single KA "was overpowered" argument. KA at its best provided Protoss about a 50% win percentage, and this was before the advent of splitting units, kiting, and heavy usage of mass EMPs.
3) Blizzard's balance team (which is predominantly ran by David Kim) makes some really idiotic decisions. They simply don't think out their changes enough, nor do they look at the long term affects of their changes. KA was absolutely necessary for Protoss to defend against drops late game, and brought far more positives from an entertainment and balance value. If they felt KA was too strong against Terran, they simply could have buffed EMP to it's old radius from the beta (I bet none of you Terran whiners actually knew EMP was even stronger in the beta) to compensate.
4) Blizzard is too idiotic also in their design. The way they balance is to MAKE races fit into certain pictures that they want them to fit in. They WANT Zerg to be able to mass expand, mass units, and swarm people. They WANT Terran to use bio in EVERY single match-up. They WANT Protoss to be the deathball high tech race. All of their balance changes are revolved around these 3 design philosophies around each race. Rather than letting players make their own choices on what units to use, Blizzard continues to nerf/change units around in order to pigeon hole people into certain strategies that they feel best fit their idea of how the game should look like. It's bad for the game, and it honestly needs to stop.
Pretty much anyone arguing that KA was bad for the game / imbalanced / broken / etc. is simply wrong. A year of statistics no matter how badly compiled it is (and it is not, I've looked at how he's compiled his numbers, and for the most part he's done a solid job), is FAR, FAR, FAR more objective than anyone's opinions, even that of a professional Starcraft 2 player. Hard numbers simply do not lie. Storm itself was balanced around the fact that KA existed, and Blizzard has yet to buff Storm at all (which is a far, far, far shittier spell than EMP or Fungal Growth since you can actually dodge the damage it does). Providing say a BW size Storm would make HT ALOT more attractive as an option, since EMPs are so obscenely strong at the moment.
For literally 6 months not a single Terran player ever cried about KA. The crying about KA only came when Blizzard announced its removal simply out of the blue.
On a separate note, I would also like to bring to everyone's attention that even if KA was overpowered (and it was not, the win rates support my position in this argument, and 6 months of statistics is far more compelling evidence than anyone can come up with), it brought far more positives to the game than negatives. With KA in the game, Protoss was able to play a far more dynamic and exciting game to watch, and it made the game simply more enjoyable. If it was deemed overpowered, they should have simply brought the other casters of the other races up to speed, or perhaps buff other units in other ways to compensate (such as making mech actually viable against Protoss, *cough cough*).
Right now, the HT by far is the shittiest caster in the game. Infestors are like a thousand times better with far more utility and game breaking abilities at all points in the game (NP, Infestor Terran timing attacks, Fungal Growth lockdowns), and Ghosts are being utilized heavily and are showing how effective they truly are.
The balance changes/design changes that are being done by Blizzard have actually created a stagnate and undynamic game. One race has literally turned into a steaming pile of shit that is forced to all-in / run gimmick strategies nearly every time to even stand a chance of winning. Blizzard still hasn't addressed how Terran has literally dominated the landscape of SC2 for an entire year (I'm sorry, as stated before, this is not a statistical anomaly, it simply is virtually impossible unless one race is simply better). People wonder why games like League of Legends, DotA 2, etc. are starting to get higher payouts and more coverage. Well guess what? Maybe people are tired of seeing a broken design/imbalances/boring non-entertaining matches/etc.? If you want SC2 to succeed, you need to keep the mechanics that make the game interesting. KA was one of those mechanics. The removal of it was totally unnecessary, and has resulted in Protoss becoming the 3rd wheel at the moment.
Excellent post. It boggles my mind that there are people who consider it imbalanced for PvT to have a ~50% winrate with KA, but balanced when PvT has a ~40% winrate without KA.
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On November 06 2011 03:17 Theovide wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 00:05 Tictock wrote:Yes I think KA was rather OP because warp in storms are just too damaging and versatile. It only takes about 20-30s for a HT to get the energy it needs from warpin till Storm which adds a slight amount of planning the P has to do. Trying to base this argument off one game is pretty silly imo, even with the old game (which is how many months old? plus hasn't there been a ton of other balance changes?) Ever since KA was removed Blizzard has been struggling to retune the game it seems with wildly game changing patches. Most recent is going to be P upgrades cheaper and EMP reduced. Did KA make for a more balanced game, especially for PvT? Really? You think the most recent patch qualifies as "wildly game changing patches"? This has to be one of the least game changing Patch for SC2 yet, Emp radius nerf is the biggest change and P's will now have an extra handfull of resources when powering upgrades (a piddly amount, but a nice bonus nonetheless). Overall I've found the patches pretty tame with the exception of a few big tweaks (such as WG nerf, ramp vision, Neral Nerf). I think your argument is just too flimsy, and I think most people will agree that KA was OP. I had just made my own half a4 post when I realised this post kind of summed it up. The only thing I'd like to add is that KA was bad design wise, and it's better buffing other things than implementing it again if protoss is underpowered. Because simply put it was not fine that protosses could come back from 50 food deficifits after a fight without using any kind of harass but simply warping in chargelots and storms.
Sounds like terran to me.
The other day MC had 50 supply more than MVP and still lost.
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KA was fine, HTs were fine and even WG was alright, it was the combination of the three that was causing trouble.
It made it painfully difficult to (re)engage a Protoss army and there was essentially no way to EMP the HTs that weren't warped in yet.
Mech play still meant Thors could be feedbacked and if you have HTs, you have a Twilight Council and Charge pretty much murders any form of Mech play.
Sky Terran is still highly experimental and rely on Banshees (which again, can be feedbacked) for ground damage and marines (which are very vulnerable to Storm) for support.
Neither are valid alternatives, pretty much forcing Bio from Terran.
Warp-in storms made dealing with drops extremely easy, you could just storm whereever it landed and if you wanted you could warp-in a second HT for feedback. You could then warp-in any reinforcements as needed.
Compared to Terran, Protoss can defend a single or double Medivac drop far easier than Terran can defend a Warp prism drop followed by warp-ins since we can't warp-in units for defense and the main and natural are never PFs.
Storm in itself is fine and so are HTs with KA, but warp-in storms feel too much like a 'get out of jail free card' when stuff goes bad for Protoss. Just warp-in two HTs on your retreating army and storm the Bioball as it tries to chase.
EMPs do ofcourse work on warping-in units but usually the Ghosts will have used their EMP at the start of the engagement and thus have no energy for EMP when Protoss retreats behind a warp-in storm.
Imagine being able to drop a Ghost like you can drop a MULE anywhere on the map with 75 energy for an instant EMP, it would be painfully overpowered without actually changing the spell or the energy or any upgrades.
I would've preferred to see that HTs that are warped in do not benefit from KA, only HTs produced out of a regular Gateway.
The KA upgrade could be made a lot cheaper (and faster to research) to compensate for it.
You could still have HTs with storm available, but not warp-in storms for insta-80dmg AOE whenever, wherever you need it.
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im am sure that if you would put KA back into the game protoss would just dominate everything since they now konw how to use hts and zerg/terra would have nooooo chance at all against the now super strong warpprism +templar drops and totally get destroyed so hard
against terran it would also be way to strong since you can just not build hts that can be emp'ed and if the fight starts they warp them in from all sides and the terran army wont stand a chance
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EPT
