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On October 31 2011 11:01 BurningSera wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 09:38 Zoia wrote:On October 31 2011 09:37 akalarry wrote:
run your drones away, kill with roaches, terran loses 300 minerals/300 gas. you can't pull this off as harassment early game because with that much investment, zerg can just go kill you. They cost 150/50 not 150/150 lol the price reminded me of hellion, 100mineral with 2hit aoe can roast so many drones^^ if the price and aoe remained the same, i dont think that i will buy HotS lol not that i really whine, i mean the game is not even out yet nobody can tells what will the final product looks like but i am just THAT sick of blizzard's way in giving terran too many cost effective units. speaking of which, i bet a shredder can 1v1 kill an ultra(300min/200gas) lol
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Shredder
It costs 150/150 according to Liquidpedia. It's by no means cheap as a drop tactic. Cost would be much more similar to a Storm Drop.
Not to mention the vast amounts of counters to Shredder drop play. Spines, Roaches, Viper pull. Queens with Tranfuse looks to be able to hold it off on their own. With their immobility, they're far less potent than Marine/Hellion Drops.
And this is just what we can think about now before the game has even come out. With the developing metagame, I'm sure they'll be even more tactics.
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On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote:
Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
what's bad about it is their whole idea is "we want to make at least one unit that forces you to do stuff away from the battle."
yea you can have all this abusive stuff, these things just tend to come about with almost any unit with weird properties unintentionally, but it's probably not their intention for the shredder. their intention for the shredder is something like, "hey, you spend some food and some money, and you put it over here away from the battle to be useful," but what actually happens is that you're trying (as terran) to make things not happen away from the battle by fortifying your flank. it's like subtituting for a siege tank which would be less effective by itself unlike a shredder.
i do agree that if anyone needed it it's definitely protoss and definitely NOT terran, but the execution of it seems to be against their ideal. it's like, yea, you are dedicating less food to your "death ball"... by making 95% deathball/5% anti-deathball counter better than 100% deathball. it's still basically encouraging moving forward with a bunch of shit and killing someone, just more efficiently.
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seriously people, from the way two queens killed it, it's pretty obvious that 2-3 roaches should be able to kill a single shredder without any issue.
If that is the case they are actually a perfect unit for their purpose, they can hold a position (with 2-3 tanks to cover them from roaches) against casual runbys, but they won't stop an all out push from a Zerg.
Note that the reaction time to pull your drones is MUCH more than you'd have if you queued a baneling drop into the mineral line so i really don't see what the fuss is about.
By all means make them not droppable (or rather not loadable into a dropship) if you feel the need, but i'll still be dropping either Hellions or marines, you know the units which can actually kill stuff when it runs away.
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my problem with this unit is that terran already have units that grant them positional advantages, for one, they don't need another unit, left alone this unit.
it would suit protoss better
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Doesn't look that bad tbh. Just pull drones. Like others said, similar to storm drops.
Swarm hosts on the other hand...they look so pitiful.
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I find the shredder redefines our current definition of the terran Meat Grinder. It has so much potential and that is the ridiculous part, although the drawbacks like how it must be alone really limit its use and make it one of those hit or miss things.. like every early timing a terran has
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On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote:
Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Yeah, exactly what I was thinking. Terran already has so many options for zone control, whereas Protoss relies on a roaming army with no way to lockdown an area. Please give the Shredder to Protoss!
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swarm hosts pretty good, even tho 2 spawns per 24 seconds seemed so slow
still it hink a problem with the mod btw is that shredder supposed to do 20 dmg per every 1 second, not 20 dmg total per 1 second
Same with swarm host its 2 spawn every 24 seconds not 1 spawn every 12 second
This is what i remember at least 
shredder didnt notice it takes 7 seconds. So basically you either need to pay attention or just put a couple canons in your base. Shredders aren't that cheap, to drop 2 is like 300/300 and 6 supply. I'm actually surprised it's 3 supply. I wonder if the unit would be more fun if they were weaker but 1 or 2 supply and much more numerable. Sort of like spider mines lol.
But anyways yeah every shredder you make could be 1 siege tank in your army.
Also, I wonder why they don't make it so that shredders work in anywhere, but they damage your units as well. I mean it's a bit interesting this way too and like they said they don't want it to be in your deathball, I guess. I guess it won't work though since 20 damage to the big mech units doesn't hurt nearly as much as killing all those numerable small weak zerg units.
@Elean Oh yeah good point you're right, you just have to run from it. Actually I just realized. Shredder cannot kill drones in 2 hits. So you can get hit 1 time, then hear the alert, once you get there the shredder should have hit the 2nd time, then you hopefully have time to pull away for the third hit. Cus it's 20 dmg per hit and drones regen. SCVs will need 3 hits as well, probes 2 I guess xD Though unlike terran, protoss has a defensive anti ground structure.
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On October 31 2011 11:06 Zaurus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 10:32 Eps wrote:
This just shows the extremes of what can happen for an inadequately prepared opponent. 1 Spine shuts this down so hard. There's no way it'll have 7 range.
With the time it takes to set up, workers can easily run away. It looks like 2 Queens even without tranfuse will be able to take it down easily. Vid shows about 3-sec set up time.
Not to mention with the Viper's pull ability, I can see it dragging away somewhere safe unless it can't be targeted.
If I recall correctly, it can't even be deployed near Terran's own units or else they disengage as well.
I much rather have Spider Mines. Even if someone has 0 reaction time, we don't have units all over the place at all the time. I hate it when people get all smart and give straight in your face type of answer that is common sense. You think we are all stupid? Of course we know we have to defend our mineral lines and watch for drops. When a medivac is flying in, how much resources worth of units should I pull to defend without risking my front? And at one time you can only react to one drop at a time no matter how fast you are. Dropping 2 shredder at 2 different mineral lines and attacking the front, is easy to execute and efficient, but defending is so hard. If you pull too much unit you are screwed. What if you decide to pull just 2 stalkers and a group of marauder and marine is in the drop?
If you want to get snarky, try to actually read the post first.
Read - 1 Spine Crawler/Cannon. It's no different than a Medivac with 8 Marines being dropped during a battle. Except you can run from this and it won't be able to do anything. The unit's Immobile.
So you're saying that Terran is doing multi-drop play while attacking the front, and the opponent does not know how to respond to 1 Medivac? So T is playing like a boss and the opposition doesn't have map awareness + inadequate base defence AND does not know how to engage a drop?
Wow, I wish all my opponents was like this.
Not to mention the same counterarguments invalidates Everything you just said. Noone knows what could be in Warpprism drops or Overlords, just as no one can know what's inside of a Medivac.
The defeatist mentality is just beautiful.
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balance for the shredder can be worked out, the idea behind it is what i like and i wish we get this so badly, everything else terran got while makes a difference, just does not feel different to core gameplay.
btw Protoss seemed fun, i hope the replica and oracle goes threw, entombing entire minerals and casting that vision grant thing is wicked with phenix's..
The big Aoe air killer seriously does a number on mutas too, i am very tempted to switch to toss for expansion
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I like how making it not be able to drop on creep is supposed to be a solution to balance it. Hey, what about terran/protoss?
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On October 31 2011 11:27 Grumbels wrote:
I like how making it not be able to drop on creep is supposed to be a solution to balance it. Hey, what about terran/protoss?
If Queens can tank it and deal significant enough damage. Stalkers will be fine. 1 Cannon with it's range compared to this should be enough to keep it at bay.
Terran is a different story. Marines seem to be too low HP to take them down if they're deployed already. My guess would be Marauders or a Bunker. Terran will be the only race without a static non-supply-cost defensive structure against this unit.
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Idea. What if the shredder AoE slowly extended out to its max range depending on how long it was planted? Say 1/3 after 10 sec. 2/3 after 20 3/3 after 30. That way it wouldn't be as strong as soon as it got planted and would limit it's offensive capabilities but in a way that a clever player could still use.
yay? nay?
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Arc Sheild is imabalanced. Toss makes 3 pylons in your base at 2 minutes and uses it and u die
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With the new speed increase, Hydralisk gonna be popular in ZvT match up again, and they sure will outrange shredder, I doubt shredder gonna be good against hydra.
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On October 31 2011 11:31 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 11:27 Grumbels wrote:
I like how making it not be able to drop on creep is supposed to be a solution to balance it. Hey, what about terran/protoss? If Queens can tank it and deal significant enough damage. Stalkers will be fine. 1 Cannon with it's range compared to this should be enough to keep it at bay. Terran is a different story. Marines seem to be too low HP to take them down if they're deployed already. My guess would be Marauders or a Bunker. Terran will be the only race without a static non-supply-cost defensive structure against this unit.
it looks like an armored unit to me, in which case 3 marauders should be able to clean it up within a very small window of time.
not sure about the marines, with the high dps they might be able to do major amount of damage in the set up time window.
tbh if this truly proves to be a problem (frankly as i said 10 posts or so ago, i don't see it) they will increase the set up time to 10 seconds or so. If you can't clean up a drop behind your mineral line in that time frame, you would have lost every drone to a marine drop.
edit: in regards to the poster above me and hydras, as long as hydras die to marines (which they currently do) no matter what speed they have they won't be built in zvt.
They might see some more use in combination with roaches and infestors, but their basic problem is that they cost far more than they are worth in WoL.
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I don't understand why this isnt a Protoss unit, Terran can have the Oracle
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Terran is the absolute last race that needed this unit imo. Shame they get even more versatility and harass ability.
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On October 31 2011 09:31 razy wrote:![[image loading]](http://ru.memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/10/10773/11032178.jpg) User was warned for this post
Gay balance memes piss me off. But what pisses me off even more is that people think Stark says: "Brace yourself" HE DOESNT!
WTF
Anyone here that was at Blizzcon play both these customs AND HotS, how do they stack up?
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OMG are the locust baby Hydras? <3
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EPT
