This is just a custom game someone made to emulate the new HotS units. The stats on the units are as accurate as they possibly could be. This is not HotS footage.
Here is a video of the arc shield in a rush
There is currently a HotS custom game live on the SEA and NA server if you search for HotS custom you will find it on 4 different maps. The stats are fairly accurate for the most part so I thought I'd make a little video to show you guys a few things I noticed about the shredder. I dropped it a couple times and then did a defense with it to show you how powerful this unit can be. Since I play terran I'm excited ^_^
I'm making a couple of extra videos about a few more of the intersting abilities / units in the custom game. Rather than flooding team liquid with a bunch of threads I'll post them here.
Battlecruiser speed boost - Funny as hell to watch almost as fast as mutas
On October 31 2011 09:31 AGIANTSMURF wrote: Before people start crying remember this is not even beta, Blizz is smart and will make neccessary changes even if it includes removing from game
It's obvious this will get changed, but don't try to justify Blizzard by giving them the good old "This isn't even beta yet!" considering all the terrible things that went into WOL beta after waiting over 9000 years.
I would like to see how this progresses though, the idea is.. okay.. but the way it's being done idk just makes for much more bland game play. Well he has shredders up over here, so don't expect anything to happen or go over there for a while! seems like a bad design to me :/ But we will see how it goes~
They already stated at Blizzcon the counters displayed are more likely more extreme than they will be at release.... who cares how potent they are NOW. You should only argue the conceptual parts about them, not the balance of them, imo. They can easily tweak it to do slower damage, different radius, etc. If it's too strong vs Zerg and too weak vs Protoss, I'm sure they could make it so it completely bypasses shields, kinda like plague did in BW. Just saying...
run your drones away, kill with roaches, terran loses 300 minerals/300 gas. you can't pull this off as harassment early game because with that much investment, zerg can just go kill you.
On second thoughs, this isn't so overpowered because you can run from it, and you just loose mining time as long as you have a way to deal with it. It's not as strong as a helion drop, it's more on the level of a banneling drop.
Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
On October 31 2011 09:37 akalarry wrote: run your drones away, kill with roaches, terran loses 300 minerals/300 gas. you can't pull this off as harassment early game because with that much investment, zerg can just go kill you.
How will they even manage to balance this unit? :p If the damage is somewhat high, it will completely remove the usage of low hp units (all of zergs except roaches?) against terran, since they die instantly without being able to touch it. But if the damage isnt high enough to kill the basic units, it will be completely useless instead.
On October 31 2011 09:39 Kira__ wrote: How will they even manage to balance this unit? :p If the damage is somewhat high, it will completely remove the usage of low hp units (all of zergs except roaches?) against terran, since they die instantly without being able to touch it. But if the damage isnt high enough to kill the basic units, it will be completely useless instead.
Everything is balanced as long as the cost is well thought. [troll]For instance, if ghosts costed 200/200, they would be balanced [/troll]
So after zerg micros and sim cities like a champ to defend vs 0gas costing hellions, you get to deal with these. Hooray. Feel like counter attacking? T just needs a couple of these at home.
That looks.. insane. If the values are correct that will need to be toned down, other zerg is forced to go hyrda with range every game just to stop the damned thing, everything else gets minced if you can drop a couple behind the mineral line. (I'm right in thinking it hits air too aren't I?)
Offtopic.. I don't get why the community isn't doing mods like this anyway with the editor, tournament mods to get rid of those supposed "imbalances" in gameplay. Quite amusing really, what we're going to be paying for in a few months time, has been knocked up by a single dedicated fan in the games own editor for free... Do we even need blizzard (concerning balance and gameplay changes) considering how much power the editor actually has.. that is not actually being used at all for competitive e-sports? (and I don't mean adding neutral depots) we could mod and fix the game ourselves.. ok not for ladder, but for custom games and tournaments etc.
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Warp prism + sentries + HT. There, it's already in the game. It's more expensive than say T's drops, but just as if not more powerful.
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Protoss still have Psi-Storm which can still be used in the BW fashion of dropping mineral lines. In SC2 ppl just don't have the time to do it often due to the tiny maps.
On October 31 2011 09:37 akalarry wrote: run your drones away, kill with roaches, terran loses 300 minerals/300 gas. you can't pull this off as harassment early game because with that much investment, zerg can just go kill you.
Yeah the queens seem to do ''kinda fine'' against them so roaches should absolutely work to kill it off, doesn't seem more deadly then a hellion drop since it can't even chase the workers....
If you however miss to pull away your workers then yes, it will hurt ^^
On October 31 2011 09:42 Toadvine wrote: Scumbag Blizzard. Doesn't let Oracle can't kill workers because too many units already do. Gives Shredder to Terran.
Honestly though, their reasoning just made no sense, considering everything else they put in the alpha.
The Shredders function in the meta isn't to harass workers. Don't think this will work in the higher leagues.
On October 31 2011 09:39 Kira__ wrote: How will they even manage to balance this unit? :p If the damage is somewhat high, it will completely remove the usage of low hp units (all of zergs except roaches?) against terran, since they die instantly without being able to touch it. But if the damage isnt high enough to kill the basic units, it will be completely useless instead.
Everything is balanced as long as the cost is well thought. [troll]For instance, if ghosts costed 200/200, they would be balanced [/troll]
1000/1000 more likely
srsly though Plexa how can you watch that video and think "Yah I think this might be able to work"
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Protoss still have Psi-Storm which can still be used in the BW fashion of dropping mineral lines. In SC2 ppl just don't have the time to do it often due to the tiny maps.
Tal Darim is such a tiny map. ppl dont do it because they have to warp them in, wait an hour, then load them up and hope their opponent doesn't walk their workers away. Perhaps not the best excuse buts it's a lot harder than warping in a bunch of zealots.
I don't know how blizzard could possibly keep this unit in the game regardless of what tinkering they could do balance it. It's yet another microless aoe ground controlling unit, between siege tanks, planetary fortresses, hellions, movable buildings, and salvagable bunkers, Terrans do not need another low apm advantage to leverage. For a race that is already incredibly good at turtling, this is entirely an unnecessary unit.
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Warp prism + sentries + HT. There, it's already in the game. It's more expensive than say T's drops, but just as if not more powerful.
Protoss drops are fine.
Concerning the risk/reward mechanic, warp prism drops skew more heavily towards the latter than the former. And HTs cannot zone out areas by themselves.
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Warp prism + sentries + HT. There, it's already in the game. It's more expensive than say T's drops, but just as if not more powerful.
Protoss drops are fine.
Protoss drops are fine, they're just less accessible than Terrans. That means that protoss wouldn't be dropping these as frequently as Terrans would be, and if they were I would wager that they become vulnerable to mutalisks or strong roach/hydra counter pushes.
On October 31 2011 09:43 Geovu wrote: srsly though Plexa how can you watch that video and think "Yah I think this might be able to work"
:S
I don't see why its much of an issue. It looks like queens can take them down just fine? Mass queen vs Protoss is common anyway. I have a feeling once people learn how to deal with them properly they won't be an issue. Obviously they solution isn't sending mass lings through a choke to clear them out
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Protoss still have Psi-Storm which can still be used in the BW fashion of dropping mineral lines. In SC2 ppl just don't have the time to do it often due to the tiny maps.
How many people think "oh yes I'm going to go rush to storm and prism to storm drop!" no one. It's a late game tactic, and hence, as I've been implying, Protoss drops are not as accessible as Terrans which makes shredder drops less likely if they were a protoss unit.
Havent seen any video about the shredder yet since the ones displayed at Blizzcon. If these custom games are accurate to what the shredder is at its current stage (prior beta) i will have to say thats it is very abusable at the moment and i doubt it will make it to the game on its current form. Seems very broken to me the fact you can drop it on sight of a queen (yeah the queen fired at the medivac first..) and it has time to get in position, deploy and start doing damage without even been near to low health. A comment on the same line with the video showing how drones almost instantly began to hit the shredder but they all died horrible before the unit was near red :S of course they could have been properly surrounded, but that's not the point. The current dps of the unit combined with its health makes it way to powerfull against melee units, maybe keeping the health and lowering the dps will be the way to go as it will still grant control of an area until your reinforcements arrives but it will not obliterate everything by themselves. And yeah, this unit should not be allowed to be droped by any means!
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Protoss still have Psi-Storm which can still be used in the BW fashion of dropping mineral lines. In SC2 ppl just don't have the time to do it often due to the tiny maps.
They do have time, it's just that SC2 Protoss is so reliant on aoe damage, that putting HTs in a Warp Prism and then not having it close by during a battle (or God forbid, losing it) can just make you outright lose the game. I've seen this exact thing happen against both P and T in high-level games.
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Warp prism + sentries + HT. There, it's already in the game. It's more expensive than say T's drops, but just as if not more powerful.
Protoss drops are fine.
Isn't the problem though? That's so expensive to do equivalent damage and if you ever get sniped... Very cool use of the Shredders, although it seems Terran have yet another thing to drop out of their Medivacs.
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Protoss still have Psi-Storm which can still be used in the BW fashion of dropping mineral lines. In SC2 ppl just don't have the time to do it often due to the tiny maps.
It's just the Psi-Storm damage has been nerfed a lot since BW so it's a lot easier to run your workers away... which I guess is why you would include sentries? Which just makes everything expensive.
heard it wasn't droppable...that+can't drop on creep would be fine IMO. Also agree with everything Plexa said, the most surprising HOTS info for me was the fact that none of the new P units seem to be primarily intended for harass, which seems to be the most universal complaint amongst P players.
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Warp prism + sentries + HT. There, it's already in the game. It's more expensive than say T's drops, but just as if not more powerful.
Protoss drops are fine.
Protoss drops are fine, they're just less accessible than Terrans. That means that protoss wouldn't be dropping these as frequently as Terrans would be, and if they were I would wager that they become vulnerable to mutalisks or strong roach/hydra counter pushes.
On October 31 2011 09:43 Geovu wrote: srsly though Plexa how can you watch that video and think "Yah I think this might be able to work"
:S
I don't see why its much of an issue. It looks like queens can take them down just fine? Mass queen vs Protoss is common anyway. I have a feeling once people learn how to deal with them properly they won't be an issue. Obviously they solution isn't sending mass lings through a choke to clear them out
Yeah the queens did well enough, so roaches will do the job fine.
Edit: Apparently I'm a idiot who needs to check his facts ^^:
Anywhere i can see all the costs of HOTS units Plexa?
On October 31 2011 09:48 DystopiaX wrote: heard it wasn't droppable...that+can't drop on creep would be fine IMO. Also agree with everything Plexa said, the most surprising HOTS info for me was the fact that none of the new P units seem to be primarily intended for harass, which seems to be the most universal complaint amongst P players.
On October 31 2011 09:48 DystopiaX wrote: heard it wasn't droppable...that+can't drop on creep would be fine IMO. Also agree with everything Plexa said, the most surprising HOTS info for me was the fact that none of the new P units seem to be primarily intended for harass, which seems to be the most universal complaint amongst P players.
Oracle is intended primarily for harass. In fact, it is intended for harass to such an extent that it cannot do anything else. Which makes it all the more amusing that it still doesn't solve the primary Protoss problems at all.
lmao this video should not be the reason why ppl think shredder is op. brb running all my drones and zerglings into it to try to prove it's imba. marine drops are infinitely better than this shredder drop bs.
instead, talk about how you can use it to zone against zerg. tanks + shredders would be a powerful combo. however it costs a lot, and your units can't be inside it. just wait until people actually play the game before you whine. ppl on the internet complain so easily it's quite fascinating.
On October 31 2011 09:37 akalarry wrote: run your drones away, kill with roaches, terran loses 300 minerals/300 gas. you can't pull this off as harassment early game because with that much investment, zerg can just go kill you.
They cost 150/50 not 150/150
Can we get a confirm/deny on this? it seems very relevant to the discussion even though numbers are obviously not final. I don't think it's OP or out of line at all, a single spine crawler can kill infinite shredders. Roaches will most likely be the other best response. It will be a tough unit on players who don't look at the minimap, just like the Oracle. The burrow time is long enough that pros will hardly ever be phased by this i imagine.Though, It does give the potential to deny mining time or punish zerg who are too ling heavy. The video illustrates the shredder in a way to make it look OP, but I really don't think it's too bad.
Also is the range 5 or 6? on the shredder?
Thanks for making the post though OP, the HotS custom game sounds awesome.
Edit: thanks for the info Plexa, that makes this look a lot stronger, but it still don't think it's that bad.
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Warp prism + sentries + HT. There, it's already in the game. It's more expensive than say T's drops, but just as if not more powerful.
Protoss drops are fine.
Protoss drops are fine, they're just less accessible than Terrans. That means that protoss wouldn't be dropping these as frequently as Terrans would be, and if they were I would wager that they become vulnerable to mutalisks or strong roach/hydra counter pushes.
On October 31 2011 09:43 Geovu wrote: srsly though Plexa how can you watch that video and think "Yah I think this might be able to work"
:S
I don't see why its much of an issue. It looks like queens can take them down just fine? Mass queen vs Protoss is common anyway. I have a feeling once people learn how to deal with them properly they won't be an issue. Obviously they solution isn't sending mass lings through a choke to clear them out
Yeah the queens did well enough, so roaches will do the job fine.
Besides it costs 300/300 so dropping in to would be a big investment. Don't see this working in the higher leagues.
Browder did mention that it might be too powerful in lower leagues though and if it becomes a guaranteed "I win" button in Bronze they're going to tweak it.
On October 31 2011 09:36 red4ce wrote: Blizz could always just make it so the shredder isn't activated by workers the same way workers didn't trigger spider mines in BW.
Thats cuz all the workers floated in BW, and mines didnt activate for flying/floating units
hmm this doesnt seem that bad. I think 1 queen shoujld be able to kill it though but it doesnt seem that bad. I mean you have time to spot the drop, and you have time before it deploys to the ground. It also rather expensive too. Droping 2 and it like dropping the resources worth of a CC.
It was no where near as bad as I though it would be which makes me glad :D
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Warp prism + sentries + HT. There, it's already in the game. It's more expensive than say T's drops, but just as if not more powerful.
Protoss drops are fine.
Protoss drops are fine, they're just less accessible than Terrans. That means that protoss wouldn't be dropping these as frequently as Terrans would be, and if they were I would wager that they become vulnerable to mutalisks or strong roach/hydra counter pushes.
On October 31 2011 09:43 Geovu wrote: srsly though Plexa how can you watch that video and think "Yah I think this might be able to work"
:S
I don't see why its much of an issue. It looks like queens can take them down just fine? Mass queen vs Protoss is common anyway. I have a feeling once people learn how to deal with them properly they won't be an issue. Obviously they solution isn't sending mass lings through a choke to clear them out
Yeah the queens did well enough, so roaches will do the job fine.
Besides it costs 300/300 so dropping in to would be a big investment. Don't see this working in the higher leagues.
Browder did mention that it might be too powerful in lower leagues though and if it becomes a guaranteed "I win" button in Bronze they're going to tweak it.
He never said that. He said IF it does become like that and he said that in regard to all strategy and not just this.
On October 31 2011 09:48 DystopiaX wrote: heard it wasn't droppable...that+can't drop on creep would be fine IMO. Also agree with everything Plexa said, the most surprising HOTS info for me was the fact that none of the new P units seem to be primarily intended for harass, which seems to be the most universal complaint amongst P players.
Oracle is intended primarily for harass. In fact, it is intended for harass to such an extent that it cannot do anything else. Which makes it all the more amusing that it still doesn't solve the primary Protoss problems at all.
Very true, which is why I think the Shredder is a much better designed unit. It's not necessarily designed for harass, but its utility is flexible so it can be used in a variety of situations including harass. I would take the shredder over the Oracle for Protoss despite Artosis' opinion of Oracle.
This unit will need balancing, but if it does have that flexibility, it's pretty cool.
All stats will change, in beta and beyond. For example, if this unit can't be dropped and moves very slowly, its offensive usage becomes very limited. Blizzard can make all new units viable, within reason.
edit: I remember when people thought banelings are stupid units that would never work well in Starcraft and would be removed next patch. One year later, they are fine and crowds love them.
He never said that. He said IF it does become like that and he said that in regard to all strategy and not just this.
How is that any different than what I said? The point is that the developers look at more than just whether or not the pros can handle it. Given that pros can handle just about anything I'm pretty glad they do.
What was that match in IEM where Strelok accidentally loaded a map where marines did 15 damage? The Zerg player even held his own in that situation. Even wildly overpowered things can look not so bad when a pro is dealing with them.
Now since the shredder is made from the factory, when I see that I slap down my roach warren just incase terran is going mech. Or muta/banes if they're gonna be doing drops marine tank play (but still have a roach warren just to switch it up soemtimes). So I'd like to see how long it takes for someone to see a drop, make all the larva at the hatchery into roaches or a few mutas and see how long the shredder takes to burrow and see what happens. I wonder if they can stop it effectively or not. Lings are obviously bad against shredders.
So a little bit of an unfair comparison. But i do think what the shit with their HP :S
On October 31 2011 09:43 Carush wrote: it blows my mind that people are complaining about this already its a fanmade version of a unmade game..............
seriously people come on
If anything, this should just show you how much people care about the content and the high expectations that players have for HOTS. I as much as anyone don't want Blizzard to screw this up ><.
Looking forward to Swarm Host, Viper necessary addition...Shredder overlaps with T too much already, yet doesn't fit with toss. I'd much rather that Blizzard get rid of:
If they even want to consider putting something which has as much potential as the shredder.
Besides, those 4 are really redudancies that shouldn't exist and are boo-boos. (Well, no one uses sensor towers enough to justify their existance, supply drop not needed as it is bandage for poor play, if you are going to have a shredder then the PF should go, bunker salvage debatable).
Either that or just don't put in the fucking shredder at all. It's just a glorified super mine that's too complex.
Also, fix the fucking goliath model. I'm getting scared ^^.
I just think it's so wrong for the shredder being able to burrow down on the creep and slaughter. That could be compared as if a Zerg could take a spinecrawler and burrow it down anywhere on the map which the Zerg cant.
The creep is Zerg's territory I dont approve any of the ideas about the shredder being able to burrow down there, or warping in zealots on the creep cuz the pylon is beside the creep etc..it just feels wrong.
Put 1 spine in your mineral line and stop crying. It will be strongest vs Terran with our lack of ground static D. Might not be dropable, might not work on creep, might not make it to release. Actually disregard all I have said. I like Zerg tears.
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Warp prism + sentries + HT. There, it's already in the game. It's more expensive than say T's drops, but just as if not more powerful.
Protoss drops are fine.
Protoss drops are fine, they're just less accessible than Terrans. That means that protoss wouldn't be dropping these as frequently as Terrans would be, and if they were I would wager that they become vulnerable to mutalisks or strong roach/hydra counter pushes.
On October 31 2011 09:43 Geovu wrote: srsly though Plexa how can you watch that video and think "Yah I think this might be able to work"
:S
I don't see why its much of an issue. It looks like queens can take them down just fine? Mass queen vs Protoss is common anyway. I have a feeling once people learn how to deal with them properly they won't be an issue. Obviously they solution isn't sending mass lings through a choke to clear them out
Yeah the queens did well enough, so roaches will do the job fine.
Besides it costs 300/300 so dropping in to would be a big investment. Don't see this working in the higher leagues.
Browder did mention that it might be too powerful in lower leagues though and if it becomes a guaranteed "I win" button in Bronze they're going to tweak it.
and then if that were to happen it would probably end up sucking at higher levels, in which blizzard will attempt some crazy change to make them usable at top levels but not abusive at low levels
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
I think the warp prism buff was actually perfect, and warp prism is about right where it should be atm. The only thing I might change would simply be hotkeys (I think you can do it manually, but I use all the default ones) as the shift to phase mode in and out is retarded and I've lost my prism on countless occasions smashing D for some reason, not sure why. That and the warpin radius could be a little bigger.
Warp prisms with speed are absolutely brutal.
What I think needs to be changed with Protoss simply is charge. I hated the ability since it was first implemented. You know what would fix a lot of harass issues? ZEALOT SPEED! Not increasing it by a pitiful amount like .5, but actually bringing back speedlots! Oh man, I miss those so much from SC2. They should make it so charge is a separate upgrade making Zealots immune to any slow/snares (I'm looking at you Conc/Fungal).
Holy shit people need to stop whining and making huge blanket statements. I can't imagine some of you guys in brood war if the community were this big back then.
"what the fuck blizzard spider mines fucking RIDICULOUS - i have to have obs everywhere on the map or my army instantly evaporates"
Like seriously, can you imagine the brood war whine fest there would be if the games positions in time were in reverse? "omg dark swarm, omg irradiate, omg psi storm, omg lurker kill entire worker line in two shot, omg omg omg"
Seriously, stop. Stuff like this is exactly what brood war had and look at how fucking balanced brood war is.
It's good that each race gets some things that appear at first sight to be ridiculous, because in reality they won't be.
The beta isn't even realesed yet, you could make videos about ultralisk charge and movable banes too and it'd seem fucking stupid as hell, doesn't make it true though. Just wait and see.
The unit hasn't been tweaked one bit so I don't see how a discussion about the power of the shredder would be meaningful at this point. I'm sure they made it overpowered as crap to show the function and idea of it at Blizzcon, The ten second video wouldn't have been as exciting if it just did 'ok-ish' damage.
Terrans getting complete as a race. Don't even need the last expansion, lol. Zergs are getting very very versatile and competent as well. Toss need some more work.
The shredder is very usable imo. It takes forever and a day to deploy so it will not be dropped or anything. It will be used as a safety against warpins/speedlings runbys.
In fact this comment ''If they prove to be a win unit in bronze we'll change/remove them'' convinced me that it's the exact same reason they came up with this unit. Newbie terrans who were ahead in the game and about to end it, get completely demolished by 20 lings raping their scvs/production buildings. Shredders will make their lives easier.
It's not a question of whether the Shredder is OP or not (though I think it is). It's whether the unit as a whole is even necessary in the Terran arsenal. And honestly, I really don't think it is. It's another super powerful defense unit that will be added to what the Terran already have: Siege Tanks, Bunkers, movable buildings, etc.
Watching this video, it didn't look too bad. Had to wonder why the Zerg decided to spawn a crapload of Zerglings as a direct reaction to a Shredder drop though.
Shredder isn't so imba as long as it cannot be loaded onto a medivac... It's suppose to be like a structure isn't it? (similar to spine/spore crawlers)
And I think it needs a nerf on range because queens and roaches can't kill it without taking damage, and that's bad for Zerg especially early-mid game. Maybe have considerably less damage on non-light units?
So it is an infinite AOE psi storm. Cool. It'll help mech be generally more useful if they make it the right price. Though there could be funny issues like it making the Pfort redundant for bases with narrow chokes. I rather pay for 3 of those than 1 Pfort since I can move those around, have an extra orbital that can move around too.
On October 31 2011 10:25 trinxified wrote: Shredder isn't so imba as long as it cannot be loaded onto a medivac... It's suppose to be like a structure isn't it? (similar to spine/spore crawlers)
And I think it needs a nerf on range because queens and roaches can't kill it without taking damage, and that's bad for Zerg especially early-mid game. Maybe have considerably less damage on non-light units?
I agree - personally I'd rather keep it "stronger" in terms of dmg output and not be able to be loaded into a medivac - but I'm not sure how it would make sense. I mean clearly, it's a movable unit so it's not planted into the ground, and furthermore, I mean, we can lift a friggin' Thor in the medivac!!
But seriously, am I wrong that a spine crawler can kill a infinite number of shredder? Can't a spine kill a siege tank protected shredder even, given that if the tank is in range of the spine, the shredder de-activates? It seems to me that the counter to these guys is just spines and creep tumors...but we all know how much zerg hates spreading creep.
On October 31 2011 10:25 trinxified wrote: Shredder isn't so imba as long as it cannot be loaded onto a medivac... It's suppose to be like a structure isn't it? (similar to spine/spore crawlers)
Oh come now, if the old thor can be loaded into medivacs, why not shredders? Maybe the unit needs to be on another race, maybe other units stats need to be changed to allow for shredders. But dropping potential makes it more interesting.
It seems like this isn't as effective as a normal marine drop. Maybe combined they would be nice, but when you think about it, all the zerg has to do is run the drones away (marines can chase, shredder can't) and then attack it with a queen which he/she should already have at the base.....
On October 31 2011 10:28 SolidZeal wrote: But seriously, am I wrong that a spine crawler can kill a infinite number of shredder? Can't a spine kill a siege tank protected shredder even, given that if the tank is in range of the spine, the shredder de-activates? It seems to me that the counter to these guys is just spines and creep tumors...but we all know how much zerg hates spreading creep.
1. How does creep counter it? I can clearly burrow on creep... 2. Sure, a spine can kill it, but not before all your drones are dead if you don't see it in time T_T. Of course, that's like most harass, but now you're forced to build static defense?! Which limits your offensive capabilities, etc. Forcing static defense is damage in and of itself.
On October 31 2011 09:49 Perseverance wrote: These seem OP...but so does the viper so =/= I guess. Only time will tell.
Well the problem here is that the only thing that looks OP about the viper would be death grip. And if that breaks the game, it could easily be removed. The shredder on the other hand is a one role unit, and if that role is imbalanced or ridiculous, then the shredder itself will have to be scrapped.
On October 31 2011 10:25 trinxified wrote: Shredder isn't so imba as long as it cannot be loaded onto a medivac... It's suppose to be like a structure isn't it? (similar to spine/spore crawlers)
And I think it needs a nerf on range because queens and roaches can't kill it without taking damage, and that's bad for Zerg especially early-mid game. Maybe have considerably less damage on non-light units?
I agree - personally I'd rather keep it "stronger" in terms of dmg output and not be able to be loaded into a medivac - but I'm not sure how it would make sense. I mean clearly, it's a movable unit so it's not planted into the ground, and furthermore, I mean, we can lift a friggin' Thor in the medivac!!
spine/spore crawlers are also movable, so this shredder "unit" should share the same restriction of not being allowed in a medivac... it makes sense and already removes a lot of possible imba strats against zerg.
This just shows the extremes of what can happen for an inadequately prepared opponent. 1 Spine shuts this down so hard. There's no way it'll have 7 range.
With the time it takes to set up, workers can easily run away. It looks like 2 Queens even without tranfuse will be able to take it down easily. Vid shows about 3-sec set up time. Not to mention with the Viper's pull ability, I can see it dragging away somewhere safe unless it can't be targeted. If I recall correctly, it can't even be deployed near Terran's own units or else they disengage as well.
On October 31 2011 10:30 LXR wrote: It seems like this isn't as effective as a normal marine drop. Maybe combined they would be nice, but when you think about it, all the zerg has to do is run the drones away (marines can chase, shredder can't) and then attack it with a queen which he/she should already have at the base.....
The queens can't even kill it... The 2 queens attacking it are about to die in that video.
On October 31 2011 10:07 avilo wrote: Holy shit people need to stop whining and making huge blanket statements. I can't imagine some of you guys in brood war if the community were this big back then.
"what the fuck blizzard spider mines fucking RIDICULOUS - i have to have obs everywhere on the map or my army instantly evaporates"
Like seriously, can you imagine the brood war whine fest there would be if the games positions in time were in reverse? "omg dark swarm, omg irradiate, omg psi storm, omg lurker kill entire worker line in two shot, omg omg omg"
Seriously, stop. Stuff like this is exactly what brood war had and look at how fucking balanced brood war is.
It's good that each race gets some things that appear at first sight to be ridiculous, because in reality they won't be.
The thing is, BW Terran had some distinct vulnerabilities that SC2 Terran is lacking. Vultures were really, REALLY good, but needed intense micro to use, unlike both the Hellion and the Shredder. Spider Mines could be dragged into Tanks, Shredders simply turn off when Terran units get too close. Mines did not affect workers, and could only be used defensively. In their current form, Shredders might be unbalanceable. At the very least, they need a major redesign to fulfill their intended role (ground control to allow Terran Tank lines to enter the game), or the rest of Terran needs to be significantly redesigned to prevent some stupid Tank/Shredder/Viking line from being completely untouchable. Right now, that can't happen. If Shredders are good enough to be used, then a Tank/Shredder line will be impossible to break from the ground, and a high Viking count has been proven to be ridiculously powerful in the air, especially if they have a Turret line to fall back to. The only thing that would stand a chance is the Carrier, and what do you know, that unit got removed from the game. I simply don't know what Zerg would do. Vipers, maybe?
Pretty much, the unit is fundamentally flawed, just like the Colossus.
The thing is you're supposed to stop drops with your mobile units but if that units gets down...you're mobile units are going to die for sure. Hopefully spines > shredders otherwise there is a problem. Also this unit better be expensive.
At first of course i was getting ready to whine about the shredder. But then i remembered, im sure it will get nerfed to hell before hots. But when you think about it PF + shredders nothing is going to get near a terrans base.
Actually I was really worried about the shredder but now having seen the video it's not too scary anymore. It looks really easy to just pull the drones away and defend with your queen(s) alone.
On October 31 2011 10:36 Toppp wrote: No offence but it's a custom, they are only using the stats that Blizzard has released, the unit stats aren't accurate.
How can they not be accurate if they are taken from Blizzard? Sure they might change it but I wouldnt call it inaccurate lol.
Oh man, that quick boost is great. If it costs energy, maybe about 50 to 75, and was researched I'd be fine with it. Many times you won't see Yamato cannon being researched, so this might be a more common energy dump.
i dont get whats so bad about it. Honestly, 8 marine drops wouldve done similar damage especially in the 1st drop. Obviously, u cant send hard countered lings to kill it...
Shredder is something Protoss really needs now. Forcefield just don't cut it, imagine all the maps have to be balance around Protoss being able to defend with forcefield, it will need to have a lot of chokes.
Yeah if you pay no attention to the mini map and have the reaction time of a sleeping elephant then yes they can do a lot of damage. Don't worry the shredder, along with 90% of the other new units, will be nerfed/changed before the game comes out.
On October 31 2011 10:36 Najda wrote: Actually I was really worried about the shredder but now having seen the video it's not too scary anymore. It looks really easy to just pull the drones away and defend with your queen(s) alone.
Exactly. Drops could be a problem for noobs, but any decent player will pull workers away kill the shredders without too many problems. A medivac full of marines seems more dangerous than shredders, surely? The shredder is merely a defensive unit imo. Even then it will be easily taken out unless it is supported e.g. with seige tanks.
I half expect some small (1 damage) pulse when they start to burrow so that people can pull their drones in time. 1 spine would clean that up quite fast.
If blizzard got desperate they could prevent shredders from getting put in medicacs, but with some sort of warning it should be fine.
I see 8 marines as doing much more damage personally.
On October 31 2011 10:54 DeltaX wrote: I half expect some small (1 damage) pulse when they start to burrow so that people can pull their drones in time. 1 spine would clean that up quite fast.
If blizzard got desperate they could prevent shredders from getting put in medicacs, but with some sort of warning it should be fine.
"Shredder deployed to the field"
like they do for nukes and nyduses? ;D
oh and shredders should beep very very loud to opponents when near enemy buildings
The shredder is pretty fascinating to me. Every race needs units that are insanely powerful - overpowered if you will. If each race has something that strong, it forces their opponent to control their units better instead of just relying on unit comps to counter the threat. Units like the BW siege tank, reaver, and lurker.
It's a step in the right direction, even if it does cause a lot of whine. As long as P and Z have units which are just as overpowered in ways that don't directly counter each other, there shouldn't be a problem. The viper might be the zerg's super powered unit, and fungals/cloud will certainly require control and not unit comp to counter, but what is it for protoss?
Along that line of thought, I'd really be interested in seeing colossi get a massive damage buff, and a collision size such that they cannot clump on top of stalkers/other colossi. I'd love to at least see them experiment a little more with ideas like this on the PTR or in the beta.
Arguing about the balance of a unit in a simulator of a game that Blizzard is obviously not close to finishing making changes to. Nice.
I still hope the Shredder gets removed though. It seems like a pretty shit idea for a unit and that won't get much use outside of turtling and stupid gimmicky plays. Its just a super boring unit imo and, like many have complained about (complaining about the concept is fine, balance complaining is just stupid, I doubt the game is even at a stage where its being balanced) is that Terran just don't need it as a unit, there is a pretty large overlap between it and other units.
At most I'd want it implemented as some sort of upgrade to turrets, but I don't really like that idea either because it would make ling runbys less powerful.
On October 31 2011 09:37 akalarry wrote: run your drones away, kill with roaches, terran loses 300 minerals/300 gas. you can't pull this off as harassment early game because with that much investment, zerg can just go kill you.
They cost 150/50 not 150/150
lol the price reminded me of hellion, 100mineral with 2hit aoe can roast so many drones^^
if the price and aoe remained the same, i dont think that i will buy HotS lol not that i really whine, i mean the game is not even out yet nobody can tells what will the final product looks like but i am just THAT sick of blizzard's way in giving terran too many cost effective units.
speaking of which, i bet a shredder can 1v1 kill an ultra(300min/200gas) lol
On October 31 2011 10:28 SolidZeal wrote: But seriously, am I wrong that a spine crawler can kill a infinite number of shredder? Can't a spine kill a siege tank protected shredder even, given that if the tank is in range of the spine, the shredder de-activates? It seems to me that the counter to these guys is just spines and creep tumors...but we all know how much zerg hates spreading creep.
1. How does creep counter it? I can clearly burrow on creep... 2. Sure, a spine can kill it, but not before all your drones are dead if you don't see it in time T_T. Of course, that's like most harass, but now you're forced to build static defense?! Which limits your offensive capabilities, etc. Forcing static defense is damage in and of itself.
Yeah, I'm not saying that creep stops it, but it sure as hell can't stop creep tumors or spine crawlers. you don't have to build static D to stop a shredder drop, but a spine crawler WILL fight it off. You can use just units to kill a Shredder drop no problem. If you're slow on the draw it will force off timing time and if you suck it up, it will kill all your workers. This doesn't look much different than a marine drop in effectiveness.
The reason i bring up creep is that if a terran is heavily utilizing shredders to zone the map, you can take zones back using creep. If he brings in units to clear creep the shredder become vulnerable, or like I described, you can take them out later in the game with spine crawlers. Late game spine crawlers are.....well if you don't have them, then why the hell not?
On October 31 2011 10:32 Eps wrote: This just shows the extremes of what can happen for an inadequately prepared opponent. 1 Spine shuts this down so hard. There's no way it'll have 7 range.
With the time it takes to set up, workers can easily run away. It looks like 2 Queens even without tranfuse will be able to take it down easily. Vid shows about 3-sec set up time. Not to mention with the Viper's pull ability, I can see it dragging away somewhere safe unless it can't be targeted. If I recall correctly, it can't even be deployed near Terran's own units or else they disengage as well.
I much rather have Spider Mines.
Even if someone has 0 reaction time, we don't have units all over the place at all the time. I hate it when people get all smart and give straight in your face type of answer that is common sense. You think we are all stupid? Of course we know we have to defend our mineral lines and watch for drops. When a medivac is flying in, how much resources worth of units should I pull to defend without risking my front? And at one time you can only react to one drop at a time no matter how fast you are. Dropping 2 shredder at 2 different mineral lines and attacking the front, is easy to execute and efficient, but defending is so hard. If you pull too much unit you are screwed. What if you decide to pull just 2 stalkers and a group of marauder and marine is in the drop?
On October 31 2011 11:05 Subversion wrote: I think the problem is Blizzard designed this unit as defensive, and probably haven't fully considered it's offensive capabilities.
so patchnote: the unit will not be activated when there is no CC within its radius of 500? sounds balance to me lol (no sarcasm i am serious!)
No one good is gonna drop shredders because it is just way too slow, in the time it takes to activate the shredder a marine drop would have killed the entire worker line. The swarm host is just a ridiculous unit that will hopefully and probably change before release and the BC speed boost seems fine i guess.
Oh and the shredder is another red alert 2 unit making a comeback. I guess Dustin Browder thinks RA2 > Broodwar.
On October 31 2011 09:37 akalarry wrote: run your drones away, kill with roaches, terran loses 300 minerals/300 gas. you can't pull this off as harassment early game because with that much investment, zerg can just go kill you.
They cost 150/50 not 150/150
lol the price reminded me of hellion, 100mineral with 2hit aoe can roast so many drones^^
if the price and aoe remained the same, i dont think that i will buy HotS lol not that i really whine, i mean the game is not even out yet nobody can tells what will the final product looks like but i am just THAT sick of blizzard's way in giving terran too many cost effective units.
speaking of which, i bet a shredder can 1v1 kill an ultra(300min/200gas) lol
Not to mention the vast amounts of counters to Shredder drop play. Spines, Roaches, Viper pull. Queens with Tranfuse looks to be able to hold it off on their own. With their immobility, they're far less potent than Marine/Hellion Drops. And this is just what we can think about now before the game has even come out. With the developing metagame, I'm sure they'll be even more tactics.
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
what's bad about it is their whole idea is "we want to make at least one unit that forces you to do stuff away from the battle."
yea you can have all this abusive stuff, these things just tend to come about with almost any unit with weird properties unintentionally, but it's probably not their intention for the shredder. their intention for the shredder is something like, "hey, you spend some food and some money, and you put it over here away from the battle to be useful," but what actually happens is that you're trying (as terran) to make things not happen away from the battle by fortifying your flank. it's like subtituting for a siege tank which would be less effective by itself unlike a shredder.
i do agree that if anyone needed it it's definitely protoss and definitely NOT terran, but the execution of it seems to be against their ideal. it's like, yea, you are dedicating less food to your "death ball"... by making 95% deathball/5% anti-deathball counter better than 100% deathball. it's still basically encouraging moving forward with a bunch of shit and killing someone, just more efficiently.
seriously people, from the way two queens killed it, it's pretty obvious that 2-3 roaches should be able to kill a single shredder without any issue. If that is the case they are actually a perfect unit for their purpose, they can hold a position (with 2-3 tanks to cover them from roaches) against casual runbys, but they won't stop an all out push from a Zerg.
Note that the reaction time to pull your drones is MUCH more than you'd have if you queued a baneling drop into the mineral line so i really don't see what the fuss is about.
By all means make them not droppable (or rather not loadable into a dropship) if you feel the need, but i'll still be dropping either Hellions or marines, you know the units which can actually kill stuff when it runs away.
my problem with this unit is that terran already have units that grant them positional advantages, for one, they don't need another unit, left alone this unit.
I find the shredder redefines our current definition of the terran Meat Grinder. It has so much potential and that is the ridiculous part, although the drawbacks like how it must be alone really limit its use and make it one of those hit or miss things.. like every early timing a terran has
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Yeah, exactly what I was thinking. Terran already has so many options for zone control, whereas Protoss relies on a roaming army with no way to lockdown an area. Please give the Shredder to Protoss!
swarm hosts pretty good, even tho 2 spawns per 24 seconds seemed so slow
still it hink a problem with the mod btw is that shredder supposed to do 20 dmg per every 1 second, not 20 dmg total per 1 second
Same with swarm host its 2 spawn every 24 seconds not 1 spawn every 12 second
This is what i remember at least
shredder didnt notice it takes 7 seconds. So basically you either need to pay attention or just put a couple canons in your base. Shredders aren't that cheap, to drop 2 is like 300/300 and 6 supply. I'm actually surprised it's 3 supply. I wonder if the unit would be more fun if they were weaker but 1 or 2 supply and much more numerable. Sort of like spider mines lol.
But anyways yeah every shredder you make could be 1 siege tank in your army.
Also, I wonder why they don't make it so that shredders work in anywhere, but they damage your units as well. I mean it's a bit interesting this way too and like they said they don't want it to be in your deathball, I guess. I guess it won't work though since 20 damage to the big mech units doesn't hurt nearly as much as killing all those numerable small weak zerg units.
@Elean Oh yeah good point you're right, you just have to run from it. Actually I just realized. Shredder cannot kill drones in 2 hits. So you can get hit 1 time, then hear the alert, once you get there the shredder should have hit the 2nd time, then you hopefully have time to pull away for the third hit. Cus it's 20 dmg per hit and drones regen. SCVs will need 3 hits as well, probes 2 I guess xD Though unlike terran, protoss has a defensive anti ground structure.
On October 31 2011 10:32 Eps wrote: This just shows the extremes of what can happen for an inadequately prepared opponent. 1 Spine shuts this down so hard. There's no way it'll have 7 range.
With the time it takes to set up, workers can easily run away. It looks like 2 Queens even without tranfuse will be able to take it down easily. Vid shows about 3-sec set up time. Not to mention with the Viper's pull ability, I can see it dragging away somewhere safe unless it can't be targeted. If I recall correctly, it can't even be deployed near Terran's own units or else they disengage as well.
I much rather have Spider Mines.
Even if someone has 0 reaction time, we don't have units all over the place at all the time. I hate it when people get all smart and give straight in your face type of answer that is common sense. You think we are all stupid? Of course we know we have to defend our mineral lines and watch for drops. When a medivac is flying in, how much resources worth of units should I pull to defend without risking my front? And at one time you can only react to one drop at a time no matter how fast you are. Dropping 2 shredder at 2 different mineral lines and attacking the front, is easy to execute and efficient, but defending is so hard. If you pull too much unit you are screwed. What if you decide to pull just 2 stalkers and a group of marauder and marine is in the drop?
If you want to get snarky, try to actually read the post first. Read - 1 Spine Crawler/Cannon. It's no different than a Medivac with 8 Marines being dropped during a battle. Except you can run from this and it won't be able to do anything. The unit's Immobile.
So you're saying that Terran is doing multi-drop play while attacking the front, and the opponent does not know how to respond to 1 Medivac? So T is playing like a boss and the opposition doesn't have map awareness + inadequate base defence AND does not know how to engage a drop? Wow, I wish all my opponents was like this.
Not to mention the same counterarguments invalidates Everything you just said. Noone knows what could be in Warpprism drops or Overlords, just as no one can know what's inside of a Medivac. The defeatist mentality is just beautiful.
balance for the shredder can be worked out, the idea behind it is what i like and i wish we get this so badly, everything else terran got while makes a difference, just does not feel different to core gameplay.
btw Protoss seemed fun, i hope the replica and oracle goes threw, entombing entire minerals and casting that vision grant thing is wicked with phenix's.. The big Aoe air killer seriously does a number on mutas too, i am very tempted to switch to toss for expansion
On October 31 2011 11:27 Grumbels wrote: I like how making it not be able to drop on creep is supposed to be a solution to balance it. Hey, what about terran/protoss?
If Queens can tank it and deal significant enough damage. Stalkers will be fine. 1 Cannon with it's range compared to this should be enough to keep it at bay.
Terran is a different story. Marines seem to be too low HP to take them down if they're deployed already. My guess would be Marauders or a Bunker. Terran will be the only race without a static non-supply-cost defensive structure against this unit.
Idea. What if the shredder AoE slowly extended out to its max range depending on how long it was planted? Say 1/3 after 10 sec. 2/3 after 20 3/3 after 30. That way it wouldn't be as strong as soon as it got planted and would limit it's offensive capabilities but in a way that a clever player could still use.
With the new speed increase, Hydralisk gonna be popular in ZvT match up again, and they sure will outrange shredder, I doubt shredder gonna be good against hydra.
On October 31 2011 11:27 Grumbels wrote: I like how making it not be able to drop on creep is supposed to be a solution to balance it. Hey, what about terran/protoss?
If Queens can tank it and deal significant enough damage. Stalkers will be fine. 1 Cannon with it's range compared to this should be enough to keep it at bay.
Terran is a different story. Marines seem to be too low HP to take them down if they're deployed already. My guess would be Marauders or a Bunker. Terran will be the only race without a static non-supply-cost defensive structure against this unit.
it looks like an armored unit to me, in which case 3 marauders should be able to clean it up within a very small window of time.
not sure about the marines, with the high dps they might be able to do major amount of damage in the set up time window.
tbh if this truly proves to be a problem (frankly as i said 10 posts or so ago, i don't see it) they will increase the set up time to 10 seconds or so. If you can't clean up a drop behind your mineral line in that time frame, you would have lost every drone to a marine drop.
edit: in regards to the poster above me and hydras, as long as hydras die to marines (which they currently do) no matter what speed they have they won't be built in zvt. They might see some more use in combination with roaches and infestors, but their basic problem is that they cost far more than they are worth in WoL.
On October 31 2011 10:32 Eps wrote: This just shows the extremes of what can happen for an inadequately prepared opponent. 1 Spine shuts this down so hard. There's no way it'll have 7 range.
With the time it takes to set up, workers can easily run away. It looks like 2 Queens even without tranfuse will be able to take it down easily. Vid shows about 3-sec set up time. Not to mention with the Viper's pull ability, I can see it dragging away somewhere safe unless it can't be targeted. If I recall correctly, it can't even be deployed near Terran's own units or else they disengage as well.
I much rather have Spider Mines.
Even if someone has 0 reaction time, we don't have units all over the place at all the time. I hate it when people get all smart and give straight in your face type of answer that is common sense. You think we are all stupid? Of course we know we have to defend our mineral lines and watch for drops. When a medivac is flying in, how much resources worth of units should I pull to defend without risking my front? And at one time you can only react to one drop at a time no matter how fast you are. Dropping 2 shredder at 2 different mineral lines and attacking the front, is easy to execute and efficient, but defending is so hard. If you pull too much unit you are screwed. What if you decide to pull just 2 stalkers and a group of marauder and marine is in the drop?
If you want to get snarky, try to actually read the post first. Read - 1 Spine Crawler/Cannon. It's no different than a Medivac with 8 Marines being dropped during a battle. Except you can run from this and it won't be able to do anything. The unit's Immobile.
So you're saying that Terran is doing multi-drop play while attacking the front, and the opponent does not know how to respond to 1 Medivac? So T is playing like a boss and the opposition doesn't have map awareness + inadequate base defence AND does not know how to engage a drop? Wow, I wish all my opponents was like this.
Not to mention the same counterarguments invalidates Everything you just said. Noone knows what could be in Warpprism drops or Overlords, just as no one can know what's inside of a Medivac. The defeatist mentality is just beautiful.
I just want to say defending a drop is not just about reaction time and putting a Cannon/spine crawler with limited range.150 minerals is alot unless you actually need it. I don't want to sound like I am trying to win an argument, all drops are hard to stop even as Terran. 8 marines is more effective than a shredder. However if you can somehow distract your opponent and let it get deployed, which is not hard, it is going to be OP. not all the time you have the Capability to react to it given 0 reaction time. You should not slap a irresponsible statement saying people are slow to react therefore they deserve to be punished. There are reasons why even if you see the drop you can't defend.
The shredder is just too unterranish for me. Since when do terrans care about friendly fire safety? Tanks, nukes, spidermines, irradiate, hunter seeker... powerful splash/aoe that will wreck your own shit if you aren't careful is the terran way. I'd rather see something like a slow, attackless, mine layer or something like that if they want to take food out of the deathball.
I find it funny that the shredder is actually what Protoss desperately needs - a unit that functions outside of the deathball and can be used to hold a position.
The shredder will put fear into the hearts of the other races, that's for sure. Imagine scouting an unsaturated enemy base and just place one shredder on the path the transferring workers will follow? Total destruction and very hard to scout too. I kind of like it though, I think people should be encouraged to not mindlessly send workers over the map, something they can still get away with even if it already causes a variety of problems.
Or dropping a shredder and two hellions somewhere: block off the choke with the shredder and roast an undefended protoss base.
I think this unit would be really nice for protoss as others have said. It's not like terran needs new units anyway. If you think about it, the only actual unit the protoss gets is the replicant (the others are replacements), a sort of weird new unit from the robotics facility. The shredder is also a weird robotic unit that already looks protoss-like with the energy field it emits. They could easily give protoss the shredder, scrap the protoss replicant and just give it to the zerg instead. (use the art for the changeling, just make it a bigger blob) Problem solved!
On October 31 2011 10:32 Eps wrote: This just shows the extremes of what can happen for an inadequately prepared opponent. 1 Spine shuts this down so hard. There's no way it'll have 7 range.
With the time it takes to set up, workers can easily run away. It looks like 2 Queens even without tranfuse will be able to take it down easily. Vid shows about 3-sec set up time. Not to mention with the Viper's pull ability, I can see it dragging away somewhere safe unless it can't be targeted. If I recall correctly, it can't even be deployed near Terran's own units or else they disengage as well.
I much rather have Spider Mines.
Even if someone has 0 reaction time, we don't have units all over the place at all the time. I hate it when people get all smart and give straight in your face type of answer that is common sense. You think we are all stupid? Of course we know we have to defend our mineral lines and watch for drops. When a medivac is flying in, how much resources worth of units should I pull to defend without risking my front? And at one time you can only react to one drop at a time no matter how fast you are. Dropping 2 shredder at 2 different mineral lines and attacking the front, is easy to execute and efficient, but defending is so hard. If you pull too much unit you are screwed. What if you decide to pull just 2 stalkers and a group of marauder and marine is in the drop?
If you want to get snarky, try to actually read the post first. Read - 1 Spine Crawler/Cannon. It's no different than a Medivac with 8 Marines being dropped during a battle. Except you can run from this and it won't be able to do anything. The unit's Immobile.
So you're saying that Terran is doing multi-drop play while attacking the front, and the opponent does not know how to respond to 1 Medivac? So T is playing like a boss and the opposition doesn't have map awareness + inadequate base defence AND does not know how to engage a drop? Wow, I wish all my opponents was like this.
Not to mention the same counterarguments invalidates Everything you just said. Noone knows what could be in Warpprism drops or Overlords, just as no one can know what's inside of a Medivac. The defeatist mentality is just beautiful.
I just want to say defending a drop is not just about reaction time and putting a Cannon/spine crawler with limited range.150 minerals is alot unless you actually need it. I don't want to sound like I am trying to win an argument, all drops are hard to stop even as Terran. 8 marines is more effective than a shredder. However if you can somehow distract your opponent and let it get deployed, which is not hard, it is going to be OP. not all the time you have the Capability to react to it given 0 reaction time. You should not slap a irresponsible statement saying people are slow to react therefore they deserve to be punished. There are reasons why even if you see the drop you can't defend.
You have to realize that spines and cannons aren't supposed to stop a drop cold just like how missile turrets don't stop mass mutas.
They are there only to buy time for your fighting units.
Btw oracle is op as hell what is T supposed to do
Also the swarm host has an effective range of about 30.
On metal at the gold the center ramp on the top gold burrowed rallied to the opposite position on my gold and they still dont time out still doing work damage.
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Agree... Terran get's the added bonus of possibly dropping Shredders and transforming Hellions behind mineral lines to destroy economies (along with marine drops, banshees etc.) while Protoss get's mini-breakable force fields to stop 500 minerals (at the most) from being mined... there's no harrass unit unless your willing to dish out tons of gas on Phoenix, which also requires more micro to do damage, or a HT drop... 150-600 gas worth :S ouch!
On October 31 2011 10:32 Eps wrote: This just shows the extremes of what can happen for an inadequately prepared opponent. 1 Spine shuts this down so hard. There's no way it'll have 7 range.
With the time it takes to set up, workers can easily run away. It looks like 2 Queens even without tranfuse will be able to take it down easily. Vid shows about 3-sec set up time. Not to mention with the Viper's pull ability, I can see it dragging away somewhere safe unless it can't be targeted. If I recall correctly, it can't even be deployed near Terran's own units or else they disengage as well.
I much rather have Spider Mines.
Even if someone has 0 reaction time, we don't have units all over the place at all the time. I hate it when people get all smart and give straight in your face type of answer that is common sense. You think we are all stupid? Of course we know we have to defend our mineral lines and watch for drops. When a medivac is flying in, how much resources worth of units should I pull to defend without risking my front? And at one time you can only react to one drop at a time no matter how fast you are. Dropping 2 shredder at 2 different mineral lines and attacking the front, is easy to execute and efficient, but defending is so hard. If you pull too much unit you are screwed. What if you decide to pull just 2 stalkers and a group of marauder and marine is in the drop?
If you want to get snarky, try to actually read the post first. Read - 1 Spine Crawler/Cannon. It's no different than a Medivac with 8 Marines being dropped during a battle. Except you can run from this and it won't be able to do anything. The unit's Immobile.
So you're saying that Terran is doing multi-drop play while attacking the front, and the opponent does not know how to respond to 1 Medivac? So T is playing like a boss and the opposition doesn't have map awareness + inadequate base defence AND does not know how to engage a drop? Wow, I wish all my opponents was like this.
Not to mention the same counterarguments invalidates Everything you just said. Noone knows what could be in Warpprism drops or Overlords, just as no one can know what's inside of a Medivac. The defeatist mentality is just beautiful.
I just want to say defending a drop is not just about reaction time and putting a Cannon/spine crawler with limited range.150 minerals is alot unless you actually need it. I don't want to sound like I am trying to win an argument, all drops are hard to stop even as Terran. 8 marines is more effective than a shredder. However if you can somehow distract your opponent and let it get deployed, which is not hard, it is going to be OP. not all the time you have the Capability to react to it given 0 reaction time. You should not slap a irresponsible statement saying people are slow to react therefore they deserve to be punished. There are reasons why even if you see the drop you can't defend.
You have to realize that spines and cannons aren't supposed to stop a drop cold just like how missile turrets don't stop mass mutas.
They are there only to buy time for your fighting units.
Btw oracle is op as hell what is T supposed to do
Just like shredder. I feel oracle is badly design. Maybe is just beta.
On October 31 2011 12:09 junemermaid wrote: I find it funny that the shredder is actually what Protoss desperately needs - a unit that functions outside of the deathball and can be used to hold a position.
Well yes and no. I'm not sure that it's necessary for everyone to have units that hold position. I can't think of BW equivalent unit for Protoss. Or at least not in the same way. Protoss power was holding their bases with a few spread units that were really powerful (nexus cannoned with a couple high templar) but had tremendous mobility either with harass (reaver, high templar drops) or carriers and arbiters. This created space and time because the opponent was defending the harass. Protoss had tremendous mobility options that allowed them to be in more places at once that countered terrans powerful hold position (the slow push of mines, vultures, tanks, turrets and depots) or Zerg's powerful lurker, sunken combo. (But muta's is the other way around... gah it's too complicated too explain.)
The point is it's not necessarily the case that all sides can block space equally unless we want BW style Terran vs Terran chessmatches. But it's more the interplay between mobility/harass and holding space. And who is the aggressor and defender might change depending on the time of the game.
However, I am greedy and I would like the Shredder for myself.
Edit Hm, just thinking. A lone collosus theoretically has the fire power to hold off expansion harassment when behind cannons similar to BW high templar and reaver... except that it can be hit by air and therefore easily sniped. If it was invulnerable to air, you could probably move it away from the deathball, but then there is the problem of killing it without vikings or zerg air. Lol, collosi are such wonky units.
On October 31 2011 10:32 Eps wrote: This just shows the extremes of what can happen for an inadequately prepared opponent. 1 Spine shuts this down so hard. There's no way it'll have 7 range.
With the time it takes to set up, workers can easily run away. It looks like 2 Queens even without tranfuse will be able to take it down easily. Vid shows about 3-sec set up time. Not to mention with the Viper's pull ability, I can see it dragging away somewhere safe unless it can't be targeted. If I recall correctly, it can't even be deployed near Terran's own units or else they disengage as well.
I much rather have Spider Mines.
Even if someone has 0 reaction time, we don't have units all over the place at all the time. I hate it when people get all smart and give straight in your face type of answer that is common sense. You think we are all stupid? Of course we know we have to defend our mineral lines and watch for drops. When a medivac is flying in, how much resources worth of units should I pull to defend without risking my front? And at one time you can only react to one drop at a time no matter how fast you are. Dropping 2 shredder at 2 different mineral lines and attacking the front, is easy to execute and efficient, but defending is so hard. If you pull too much unit you are screwed. What if you decide to pull just 2 stalkers and a group of marauder and marine is in the drop?
If you want to get snarky, try to actually read the post first. Read - 1 Spine Crawler/Cannon. It's no different than a Medivac with 8 Marines being dropped during a battle. Except you can run from this and it won't be able to do anything. The unit's Immobile.
So you're saying that Terran is doing multi-drop play while attacking the front, and the opponent does not know how to respond to 1 Medivac? So T is playing like a boss and the opposition doesn't have map awareness + inadequate base defence AND does not know how to engage a drop? Wow, I wish all my opponents was like this.
Not to mention the same counterarguments invalidates Everything you just said. Noone knows what could be in Warpprism drops or Overlords, just as no one can know what's inside of a Medivac. The defeatist mentality is just beautiful.
I just want to say defending a drop is not just about reaction time and putting a Cannon/spine crawler with limited range.150 minerals is alot unless you actually need it. I don't want to sound like I am trying to win an argument, all drops are hard to stop even as Terran. 8 marines is more effective than a shredder. However if you can somehow distract your opponent and let it get deployed, which is not hard, it is going to be OP. not all the time you have the Capability to react to it given 0 reaction time. You should not slap a irresponsible statement saying people are slow to react therefore they deserve to be punished. There are reasons why even if you see the drop you can't defend.
Considering that the range of the Shredder looks to be about 5-6 and there is definitely no way they'll make it a range-7 AOE Damage Unit, how are 7-Range Static-Defences any more limited than the Shredder?
If people are slow to react, or do not have proper defence. It is Exactly why they deserved to be punished. Hell it's the whole point of a drop, to distract or to damage.
How is your example any different than when a Terran is moving across the map and Mutas come in to harass the mineral line? Or Overlord Drops/Warpprism drops. Or Medivac Drops of any other unit? Except the unit in question needs to be Immobile and requires 4 ticks to kill off workers. That counter-argument is simply invalid considering it can be applied to Every race and essentially to almost every offensive unit in the game.
I really do not feel like I have to rebuke the point about how 150 minerals is Costly. Considering this unit costs 150/150Gas and requires Factory-Starport and a Dropship to use it as an offensive drop-harassment. By that time, I doubt Z can't afford to spend 150 Minerals as a preemptive Shredder Drop Defence deterrent.
Some people in this thread are talking as if this unit is going to be cheap harassment drop tactic. Considering the set up time, I doubt retraction of the Shredder will be 0-seconds so it better kill something or it'd be a huge wasted investment.
On October 31 2011 12:09 junemermaid wrote: I find it funny that the shredder is actually what Protoss desperately needs - a unit that functions outside of the deathball and can be used to hold a position.
It's entirely possible for the shredder to be switched to protoss, same way phase cannons are now spine crawlers. Hopefully blizzard does it ;D
They could add the following characteristic to the shredder that could make it weaker when micro'd against: instead of pulsing its field with a very high frequency, lower it, so that a careful player can enter the field just after a recent pulse. This can mean the different between a dead shredder and some dead marines, if you balance it right perhaps.
On October 31 2011 09:31 AGIANTSMURF wrote: Before people start crying remember this is not even beta, Blizz is smart and will make neccessary changes even if it includes removing from game
Like how they removed close positions and bad maps before retail? Yeah, probably...
On October 31 2011 11:07 Plexa wrote: Late game shredders in drops are OP as fuck lol
Shredders in drops suck hardcore. The unit itself is no where near as effective as spider mines were. In a drop, the only people that will ever lose workers to this are people below platinum or that fall out of their chair. It takes so long to deploy i can't ever see any pros losing workers to this ever.
And aside from that, it actually feels very weak in it's current form (surprisingly). I tested the shredder in the custom map, others should as well, the damage only feels quick versus low HP units like zerglings that would run through it, but otherwise basically every unit in the game out dps's these things so hard that you'll only ever lose 1-2 units from these if you play SC2 ball-style or just play normal...
I have a feeling once the game releases, the forums/community are going to whine about things that are not actually OP, and then the unit will end up utterly pointless, much like happened with CnC expansions.
Because as is, from the stats and function of this unit, it's actually not that powerful at all. Test it in the custom map.
And for people comparing it to spider mines, it's actually nothing like spider mines in terms of how it functions. It's visible, and easy to snipe and does not have that real "oomph" feeling you get when you lay down and see a spider mine go off. Mainly because a spider mine does the 125 damage at once, whereas this thing you can just avoid the damage by stepping out of it.
Some more potential uses if this unit were given to protoss. Protoss struggles pretty hard on maps like Dual Sight and Metalopolis because of wide open spaces weaking forcefielding and wide open thirds as well, making thirds hard to take. I could easily see this unit being used to protect third expansions from roach/ling run ins.
I saw the technologically advanced energy fieldss, i saw units die as if the Shredder was 6 stimmed marines, I saw it clear out a mineral line. and now i don't care what it takes i have to have it.
Oracle totally imbalanced, way too hard for people to deal with it, u can block the whole mineral line and you then have to reclick with ur peons on ur mineral or else they just sit there
On October 31 2011 12:48 VTPerfect wrote: Some more potential uses if this unit were given to protoss. Protoss struggles pretty hard on maps like Dual Sight and Metalopolis because of wide open spaces weaking forcefielding and wide open thirds as well, making thirds hard to take. I could easily see this unit being used to protect third expansions from roach/ling run ins.
I saw the technologically advanced energy fieldss, i saw units die as if the Shredder was 6 stimmed marines, I saw it clear out a mineral line. and now i don't care what it takes i have to have it.
Protoss definitely do not need this, and 99% protoss players, even grandmasters are so used to 1A ball syndrome that the unit would be pointless lol.
Perfect, you should go into the custom map thing right now and try out the oracle. It's powerful as fuck lol @_@
Seriously in it's current state it's rediculously powerful even as a static defence, let alone being able to be mobile. Compare this 150/50 unit to a 150/0 spine crawler or cannon, it can handle an infiniate amount of lings vs barely being able to take 4-5. Ditto roaches or any other unit that needs to go within range.
Two of these outside of a terrans base essentially renders them immune to ling counter attacks for 300/100 after they move out with a huge siege tank / marine deathball.
swarm host looks incredibly weak, given it was 20 of them and they barely tore down that cybernexus core. I guess dropping swarm host is completely not gonna be useful then
On October 31 2011 11:07 Plexa wrote: Late game shredders in drops are OP as fuck lol
Like reavers, except with 100% accuracy
How is a shredder worse than blue flame hellions?
On October 31 2011 12:54 Peleus wrote: Seriously in it's current state it's rediculously powerful even as a static defence, let alone being able to be mobile. Compare this 150/50 unit to a 150/0 spine crawler or cannon, it can handle an infiniate amount of lings vs barely being able to take 4-5. Ditto roaches or any other unit that needs to go within range.
Two of these outside of a terrans base essentially renders them immune to ling counter attacks for 300/100 after they move out with a huge siege tank / marine deathball.
It costs food though? And discussing stats at this point is useless.
Just give it a significantly longer deploy time and little bit lower health. If it serves its purpose (position defense), deploy time should almost never been a problem, correct? Thus it seems like a pretty fine solution to avoid situations like these
P.S. Assuming the stats are correct, does anyone else think those Swarm Hosts were extremely underwhelming?... Hell, 20 roaches would've cleared that base faster than they did.
On October 31 2011 12:54 Peleus wrote: Seriously in it's current state it's rediculously powerful even as a static defence, let alone being able to be mobile. Compare this 150/50 unit to a 150/0 spine crawler or cannon, it can handle an infiniate amount of lings vs barely being able to take 4-5. Ditto roaches or any other unit that needs to go within range.
Two of these outside of a terrans base essentially renders them immune to ling counter attacks for 300/100 after they move out with a huge siege tank / marine deathball.
It costs food though? And discussing stats at this point is useless.
While I understand it costs food, let's be realistic, what will be take up, 2 food each?
That's 4 sacrificing 4 marines in a death ball to be completely immune to counter attacks. Seriously even 3, 4 food each it's still crazy to completely shut down one of the only viable paths a zerg has against a deathball.
On October 31 2011 12:48 VTPerfect wrote: Some more potential uses if this unit were given to protoss. Protoss struggles pretty hard on maps like Dual Sight and Metalopolis because of wide open spaces weaking forcefielding and wide open thirds as well, making thirds hard to take. I could easily see this unit being used to protect third expansions from roach/ling run ins.
I saw the technologically advanced energy fieldss, i saw units die as if the Shredder was 6 stimmed marines, I saw it clear out a mineral line. and now i don't care what it takes i have to have it.
Protoss definitely do not need this, and 99% protoss players, even grandmasters are so used to 1A ball syndrome that the unit would be pointless lol.
Perfect, you should go into the custom map thing right now and try out the oracle. It's powerful as fuck lol @_@
yeah because 1a death ball syndrome has won many gsls /sarcasm. And I already tried out the Oracle and its nice if you rush to the stargate for the oracle because early game 75 hp per mineral patch is quite alot, but there are 2 major flaws, #1 useless stargate (150 gas) for a long time. #2 200 gas itself o.o? #3 its great i took away at best 500 minerals but now i have a floating orb that does 0 damage and has no defensive capability whatsoever and is now out of energy too. I see it just being another Phoenix unit in TvP where Terran sees phoenix which immediately queues the terran to do a stim push with a few scv's and win outright. and you don't know anything about what protoss needs. I stated protoss struggles on Dual Sight and Metalopolis, Stats reflect this, i'm not delusional. and based on my explanations on why protoss struggles on those maps this unit looks like a possible solution
The swarmhosts attack seems so insignificant. Looks like 20 melee roaches with a timer. I'd rather have 20 real roaches that would do just as much damage and cost less.
On October 31 2011 12:48 VTPerfect wrote: Some more potential uses if this unit were given to protoss. Protoss struggles pretty hard on maps like Dual Sight and Metalopolis because of wide open spaces weaking forcefielding and wide open thirds as well, making thirds hard to take. I could easily see this unit being used to protect third expansions from roach/ling run ins.
I saw the technologically advanced energy fieldss, i saw units die as if the Shredder was 6 stimmed marines, I saw it clear out a mineral line. and now i don't care what it takes i have to have it.
Protoss definitely do not need this, and 99% protoss players, even grandmasters are so used to 1A ball syndrome that the unit would be pointless lol.
Perfect, you should go into the custom map thing right now and try out the oracle. It's powerful as fuck lol @_@
yeah because 1a death ball syndrome has won many gsls /sarcasm. And I already tried out the Oracle and its nice if you rush to the stargate for the oracle because early game 75 hp per mineral patch is quite alot, but there are 2 major flaws, #1 useless stargate (150 gas) for a long time. #2 200 gas itself o.o? #3 its great i took away at best 500 minerals but now i have a floating orb that does 0 damage and has no defensive capability whatsoever and is now out of energy too. I see it just being another Phoenix unit in TvP where Terran sees phoenix which immediately queues the terran to do a stim push with a few scv's and win outright. and you don't know anything about what protoss needs. I stated protoss struggles on Dual Sight and Metalopolis, Stats reflect this, i'm not delusional. and based on my explanations on why protoss struggles on those maps this unit looks like a possible solution
A unit to solve a problem on 2 certain maps, one which isn't even in the ladder map pool. Are you serious lol?
On October 31 2011 12:48 VTPerfect wrote: Some more potential uses if this unit were given to protoss. Protoss struggles pretty hard on maps like Dual Sight and Metalopolis because of wide open spaces weaking forcefielding and wide open thirds as well, making thirds hard to take. I could easily see this unit being used to protect third expansions from roach/ling run ins.
I saw the technologically advanced energy fieldss, i saw units die as if the Shredder was 6 stimmed marines, I saw it clear out a mineral line. and now i don't care what it takes i have to have it.
Protoss definitely do not need this, and 99% protoss players, even grandmasters are so used to 1A ball syndrome that the unit would be pointless lol.
Perfect, you should go into the custom map thing right now and try out the oracle. It's powerful as fuck lol @_@
yeah because 1a death ball syndrome has won many gsls /sarcasm. And I already tried out the Oracle and its nice if you rush to the stargate for the oracle because early game 75 hp per mineral patch is quite alot, but there are 2 major flaws, #1 useless stargate (150 gas) for a long time. #2 200 gas itself o.o? #3 its great i took away at best 500 minerals but now i have a floating orb that does 0 damage and has no defensive capability whatsoever and is now out of energy too. I see it just being another Phoenix unit in TvP where Terran sees phoenix which immediately queues the terran to do a stim push with a few scv's and win outright. and you don't know anything about what protoss needs. I stated protoss struggles on Dual Sight and Metalopolis, Stats reflect this, i'm not delusional. and based on my explanations on why protoss struggles on those maps this unit looks like a possible solution
jesus christ u gotta be kidding perfect, Oracle is super imba
If shredder drops are so bad just make them not liftable by medivacs. The truth is that they aren't though. Baneling drops are worse and with moving while burrowed banelings it will be crazy. The game is just going to be more dynamic varied and chaotic with the changes. This will make things much more interesting once people get used to it. Also, not sure if ppl have tried the mod out but the new Protoss units are pretty dang good.. If history says anything people will just complain for months during beta and after, blizzard will change a couple units, but overall the entire metagame and every race's builds will simply change and ~3 months after we will all be enjoying the game more with the HoTS changes.
20 stim marines probably coulda cleared that base faster than the minute it took those 20 swarm hosts for 1/2 or 1/3 the supply and like 1/6th the cost lol. Not even beta or the real game though, hopefully blizz will balance shit out but some of these units idk... gluck blizz lol..
Haha I feel like blizzard is trolling all the haters out there. It's obvious they see it as a defensive unit Which fits right into the whole terran mentality. I feel like they r fully aware of it's op state in the example videos and will surely at the least add nerds that would prevent it from being too offensive like not being able to enter medivacs or a largely increased set up time plus slower movement speed to make it less mobile. David Kim is just trololol right now
Obviously the stats/cost will be adjusted for balance, but the concept of shredder is quite sad. It's literally a set-it-and-forget-it unit for defense, and there isn't much maneuvability for offense, either. No target firing since it simply grinds things around it, too slow to move around due to burrow. Only thing a T can do is to find a nice spot and throw it down then see how it goes. No more action required or achievable. If things go well maybe you can pick it back up and throw it elsewhere. But that's just about it.
Lame a-move unit concept, IMO. I mean, it doesn't even move, lol.
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Warp prism + sentries + HT. There, it's already in the game. It's more expensive than say T's drops, but just as if not more powerful.
Protoss drops are fine.
Protoss drops are fine, they're just less accessible than Terrans. That means that protoss wouldn't be dropping these as frequently as Terrans would be, and if they were I would wager that they become vulnerable to mutalisks or strong roach/hydra counter pushes.
On October 31 2011 09:43 Geovu wrote: srsly though Plexa how can you watch that video and think "Yah I think this might be able to work"
:S
I don't see why its much of an issue. It looks like queens can take them down just fine? Mass queen vs Protoss is common anyway. I have a feeling once people learn how to deal with them properly they won't be an issue. Obviously they solution isn't sending mass lings through a choke to clear them out
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Protoss still have Psi-Storm which can still be used in the BW fashion of dropping mineral lines. In SC2 ppl just don't have the time to do it often due to the tiny maps.
How many people think "oh yes I'm going to go rush to storm and prism to storm drop!" no one. It's a late game tactic, and hence, as I've been implying, Protoss drops are not as accessible as Terrans which makes shredder drops less likely if they were a protoss unit.
Toss drops seem pretty accessible to me. A robo can be produced pretty darn fast and warp prism can be produced fast especially when chronoed.
Personally I think that warp prisms just need more utility. Blizzard should remove the warp prism speed upgrade and introduce an upgrade that heals the shields of protoss units. That would give them much more utility and would actually be a cool HOTS toss upgrade. Players would also have more of a reason to get the shield upgrades for their units.
Lame a-move unit concept, IMO. I mean, it doesn't even move, lol.
I don't understand how you arrived at that conclusion. The Shredder is the complete opposite of "a-move". An a-move unit would be the Battle Hellion or Warhound. You just throw them in your deathball and keep on trucking. Shredder on the other hand opens up many new possibilities for Terran matchups, even without the ability to harass. They're like spider mines, perhaps less micro-intensive but still fully capable of zoning the opponent and helping Terran establish area control. It's as anti a-move as you get. The fact that they are ineffective when in range of your units means you really need to pay attention to unit spacing. This is probably the most interesting unit of the expansion pack in terms of how many doors it opens up for gameplay.
I was playing around on the HotS map before work and I dont really play the races, but to me a shredder should have some kind of no burrow on creep....Drop a few of these bad boys with a few rines to cover and its pretty much GG....as the rines will die just after the shredder has been grounded....
Lame a-move unit concept, IMO. I mean, it doesn't even move, lol.
I don't understand how you arrived at that conclusion. The Shredder is the complete opposite of "a-move". An a-move unit would be the Battle Hellion or Warhound. You just throw them in your deathball and keep on trucking. Shredder on the other hand opens up many new possibilities for Terran matchups, even without the ability to harass. They're like spider mines, perhaps less micro-intensive but still fully capable of zoning the opponent and helping Terran establish area control. It's as anti a-move as you get. The fact that they are ineffective when in range of your units means you really need to pay attention to unit spacing. This is probably the most interesting unit of the expansion pack in terms of how many doors it opens up for gameplay.
Read my whole post. Yeah a-move wasn't a right word, I just couldn't find the fitting word to describe its idiocy and noob-friendliness.
Edit: Quoted it for you.
On October 31 2011 14:07 usethis2 wrote: Obviously the stats/cost will be adjusted for balance, but the concept of shredder is quite sad. It's literally a set-it-and-forget-it unit for defense, and there isn't much maneuvability for offense, either. No target firing since it simply grinds things around it, too slow to move around due to burrow. Only thing a T can do is to find a nice spot and throw it down then see how it goes. No more action required or achievable. If things go well maybe you can pick it back up and throw it elsewhere. But that's just about it.
Lame a-move unit concept, IMO. I mean, it doesn't even move, lol.
I read your whole post and I disagree with you. It's not noob-friendly at all but a powerful tool in the right hands. It's not meant to kill off armies, it's meant to close off avenues of approach to allow a smart Terran to stagger his defensive lines. It is nothing like a fire-and-forget weapon, unless you want to waste a bunch of resources to kill a few zerglings.
On October 31 2011 14:28 Warlock40 wrote: I read your whole post and I disagree with you. It's not noob-friendly at all but a powerful tool in the right hands. It's not meant to kill off armies, it's meant to close off avenues of approach to allow a smart Terran to stagger his defensive lines. It is nothing like a fire-and-forget weapon, unless you want to waste a bunch of resources to kill a few zerglings.
Well them maybe you could counter my argument instead of nitpicking at the choice of a word in the last sentence? Sorry if I sound aggressive but I tend not to like selective quoting completely out of context. I have suggested that this unit will not require much action from a T player (even if s/he desires) due to its nature and the simplicity of the unit will make it extremely hard to balance it at the high-level (it will either be OP or UP).
this actually made me laugh so hard when i watched it on stream and made me start thinking how stupid starcraft 2 is going to become and understand why starcraft 1 will ALWAYS be the best RTS EVER.
On October 31 2011 14:07 usethis2 wrote: Obviously the stats/cost will be adjusted for balance, but the concept of shredder is quite sad. It's literally a set-it-and-forget-it unit for defense, and there isn't much maneuvability for offense, either. No target firing since it simply grinds things around it, too slow to move around due to burrow. Only thing a T can do is to find a nice spot and throw it down then see how it goes. No more action required or achievable. If things go well maybe you can pick it back up and throw it elsewhere. But that's just about it.
Lame a-move unit concept, IMO. I mean, it doesn't even move, lol.
Good point. I thinkt hey shoudl just give spidermines to hellions lol. It would help them vs Zealots too. Then maybe they wouldn't need Battle Hellion mode.
Btw the thrust on the BCs... it doesnt cost energy??? thought it costed at least 25? no?
Terran doesn't deserve it, it's that simple. They already have to good drops with the best dps in the game; Marines and the best building killer in the game; Marauders.
You don't like selective quoting yet you dismissed my first post based off the first two sentences. But that's besides the point. You suggest that this unit will not require much action from a Terran player. I argue that it requires a lot of action from a Terran player not just to keep it alive but make it worthwhile. The beauty of the unit is in the simplicity of its function (no silly war3 spells here) belying the complexity of its design. Think of it this way. Whereas the Warhound is just a boring (though perhaps necessary) unit like the Marauder, the Shredder is similar to the Siege Tank. Siege Tanks might not seem to require a lot of micro but they do.
Will it be hard to balance? Aside from the worker harass function which might not have been intended, nope. It's pretty much a mini-planetary fortress that can't be repaired...
What kind of micro does it require other then, well setting it up? How would you balance such a line, when there is no player action is required for the unit to function as intended?
On October 31 2011 14:41 Krehlmar wrote: Terran doesn't deserve it, it's that simple. They already have to good drops with the best dps in the game; Marines and the best building killer in the game; Marauders.
Why would they need a mobile psyhic storm droid?
I'd hope that blizzard makes it so that you cant drop it in medivacs and make it so that it doesn't affect workers. What terran really needs is more/better meching and positioning units that can deal with toss/zerg units. Right now mech is garbage TvP and bio/mech is way better than mech TvZ.
Toss really needs upgrades that gives their units more utility later in the game since they're the tech race, upgrades such as an upgrade that increases the shields of immortals, allows warp prisms to heal shields until they reach 0, a new unit that you can get from the robo that is a siege based unit that can be burrowed.
Zerg really just needs a siege unit and possibly remove fungal from the infestor and add in an ability that decreases the range of all enemy units to 1 if they're in the spells cloud radius.
this made me laugh too because it will be the terran players who will QQ when it get scraped.
Not really. Terran players have their stuff scrapped/nerfed all the time for countless patches. They still have the PF as solid defence for expansions, and marine drops can serve the same function of wrecking mineral lines. Losing the shredder wouldn't upset Terrans at all.
On October 31 2011 14:55 Beardedclam wrote: The double down thor is so insane. His barrage attack 1 shots my whole Protoss army and leaves like 5 units left. This thing needs to be nerfed. LOL
Sounds reasonable. :D
Having missed out on the starcraft scene until after the WoL beta, I'm quite excited for all this. I really can't wait to see how it'll all evolve! Needless to say, there's plenty to do.
I definately think shredder would've suited better for other races. Terran has easier time defending their exps aswell as harrassing.
It being OP, lol so what? Point of it is to look imba now, so people will understand what it's capable of and not ignore it. Ofc they'll tune it down to more balanced level later. It's not good for balancing if you show it first as undertuned crappy version and people don't even bother with it.
What kind of micro does it require other then, well setting it up? How would you balance such a line, when there is no player action is required for the unit to function as intended?
Once again you answer your own question. The micro is in setting it up - and setting it up, and setting it up. The idea is that you have to constantly reposition your army and Shredders to meet the enemy threat.
On October 31 2011 14:41 Krehlmar wrote: Terran doesn't deserve it, it's that simple. They already have to good drops with the best dps in the game; Marines and the best building killer in the game; Marauders.
Why would they need a mobile psyhic storm droid?
I'd hope that blizzard makes it so that you cant drop it in medivacs and make it so that it doesn't affect workers. What terran really needs is more/better meching and positioning units that can deal with toss/zerg units. Right now mech is garbage TvP and bio/mech is way better than mech TvZ.
Toss really needs upgrades that gives their units more utility later in the game since they're the tech race, upgrades such as an upgrade that increases the shields of immortals, allows warp prisms to heal shields until they reach 0, a new unit that you can get from the robo that is a siege based unit that can be burrowed.
Zerg really just needs a siege unit and possibly remove fungal from the infestor and add in an ability that decreases the range of all enemy units to 1 if they're in the spells cloud radius.
I can agree with that argument...
But I can not for the life of me understand anyone who does not consider this unit to be a bad idea, it's a non micro, static aoe. It's like a tank except none of the weaknesses since it's suppose to be alone and surrounded be enemies.
I can agree that there should be changes to terran in some ways, not necessarily nerfs (although I really wish they'd do something to marauder since it's still a bad concept of a unit togheter with the roach/stalker) but this is just a stupid idea for a unit and it rewards bad play. Terran already has scan/mules that reward shitty micro, why should they get more units like that? I play random at high masters so no zerg whining here.
I really like the idea of the shredder, however, when i do the HoTs test map, im always at a crossroad, its a huge investment to buy a ton of those and they get picked off pretty easy. Im pretty sure Blizz wont let them become another Terran worker killer, they realize that there are to many ways to kill workers easily.
A big problem tho is that these things are supposed to offer "board control" espcially in TvP. These things dont stop blink collsi at all. The collsi take them out in a second and before you knoiw it the blink/collsi are in your base. IF mech is ever to come even close to being viable something has to solve the blink/collsi problem.
I would be curious to see how it does against mutas. Since zergs tend to use mutas to clean up drops, it would be pretty bad if this thing shredded mutas as quickly as it does zerglings.
On October 31 2011 14:55 Beardedclam wrote: The double down thor is so insane. His barrage attack 1 shots my whole Protoss army and leaves like 5 units left. That thing needs to be nerfed. LOL
I'm sure feedback still makes the Thor just as useless as ever.
On October 31 2011 14:11 tomatriedes wrote: Wait, terran the race that already has blue-flame hellion drops and stim marine drops needs yet another way to devastate a mineral line?
QFT. However, they can also use the shredder to pretty much damage lings/banes before they hit the marines outside of creep.
Swarm hosts can decimate a base really quickly, pushing with them might be the best thing to wear out defences.
certainly doesn't seem too nasty. Perhaps a single unit of less range and I think those drops would be negated simply by a spine crawler in the mineral line. Since buildings don't seem to take damage, and the crawlers get their bonus, that would shut down any kind of seriously hardcore shredder drops right off. Ditto with a cannon. I think the more scary prospect is a shredder at the top of a ramp out of LoS. you could even metagame someone- spot a hidden base building, sneak a shredder to the top of a ramp between the new base and the main base, so when the worker transfer goes past they all die XD
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Yeah I agree with this. Protoss would benefit greatly from this unit as this will be the perfect harass unit with the now increased shuttle health.
Terran don't need this as they already got a great map control with the siege tanks. Just imagine if terran contains you with with this new unit in there as well. There is no way to break out, siege tanks counter colossus range, shredderer counter zealots and marines counter pretty much everything.
Similar thing with zerg as well, this will shred banelings to pieces, unless of course Blizzard gets from their stuborness and introduces the lurker.
After playing through each race on this map, I feel the following : 1. Shredder is a protoss unit through and through. Terran doesn't need this strong of a harass. 2. Oracle is gosu at noob level, and sorta, useless higher up 3. Battle hellion still won't be used in late game 4. Warhound sucks against mutas 5. Tempest still won't be used 6. Not sure - but replicant can't duplicate an scv, so it will never get used.
The locus seems to do quite a lot of damage. (Please turn off health bars though next vid. ) What I didn't see in the video is if you can control the them. It looks like you could just kite them around with a quite unit otherwise.
Regarding the vids I don't know what there is to say. Just wait for beta, Blizzard will balance the units out. No need to going rage mode about OP or not before the beta is out.
Blizzard will balance the game, I don't know why there is any reason to rage.
Assuming it is close to the real thing i only see problems on lower levels of play since burrow time + low hp pool makes it easy killable when focused. With high or inexistent reaction time you're pretty much done for.
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
OMG no no nonononononono no. Protoss does not need harassment, they have the deathball advantage going for them, if they were given this level of harassment their deathball advantage would grow even larger... I think moving warp prism to require robo facility is the direction that we want to be moving, warpgates already give bad protoss players (and even some good ones) a huge buffer when it comes to getting out of position, giving them unit like the shredder would be a huge mistake by rewarding bad play even more than warpgate already does.
rofl how long the terran shredder takes to kill the zerg base and how long the swarmhost kills the toss base... and there are 20 swarm hosts in total too ROFL
shouldn't this thread be in the custom map section? This really has very little to do with the current SC2 game and brings very little to the discussion about what might possibly be the balance in HotS.
Start a thread in the custom maps and discuss HOW to balance the HotS implemented units and see what makes sense?
Yeah. If you don't move your drones in the ~15 seconds you get from the time it you spot it to the time it's dropped and deployed, you deserve to lose your mineral line.
On October 31 2011 17:07 Teim wrote: Yeah. If you don't move your drones in the ~15 seconds you get from the time it you spot it to the time it's dropped and deployed, you deserve to lose your mineral line.
Its more showcasing how even with the thing surrounded by lings it kills them almost instantly lol. So the only counter to it is I imagine roaches and 3 or so queens which is dumb.
On October 31 2011 17:07 Teim wrote: Yeah. If you don't move your drones in the ~15 seconds you get from the time it you spot it to the time it's dropped and deployed, you deserve to lose your mineral line.
Its more showcasing how even with the thing surrounded by lings it kills them almost instantly lol. So the only counter to it is I imagine roaches and 3 or so queens which is dumb.
Well, the video only shows the worst way to counter it. Like mass lings trying to get behind a mineral line? Really? That would be like a Terran sending mass marines to counter a collosus on a ridge
If the video showed how roaches deal with it. Or how a spine crawler planted in a mineral line deals with it, it would've been fine. As it is, the video is nothing more than propaganda to try and push for a nerf for a unit that isn't even in the game yet. And you can see by all the idiodic responses in this thread that said propaganda is working perfectly.
I play zerg and really dont have too much of a problem with this. It's a strong unit, but not off the charts OP. Maybe if they lowered its hitpoints a little it would be better.
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
This is a golden idea. I feel bad for the protoss, their new units are just unoriginal and shitty. The shredder would be a nice addition and wouldn't add to "the deathball".
i dont see the schredder to be a effective harass unit... maybe something like tank schredder drop on a map like mata close air and have the goal to be ultra cost effective.
A question: Is the Schredder affected by bunkers? because thats not a unit so you cuold build a bunker put marines in it and deploy the scredder in range of the bunker.
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
I love it. When I saw the shredder I immediately thought that it would be a great unit for the protoss army.
Edit: and as mentioned above, it doesn't synergize with the toss deathball, so it would be a perfect way to add dps to the toss army without actually adding it to the army itself. It's never going to happen though because as we know, blizzard doesn't like to redo models/take them out once they're done.
On October 31 2011 17:35 Cuiu wrote: i dont see the schredder to be a effective harass unit... maybe something like tank schredder drop on a map like mata close air and have the goal to be ultra cost effective.
A question: Is the Schredder affected by bunkers? because thats not a unit so you cuold build a bunker put marines in it and deploy the scredder in range of the bunker.
that would be a sick defense line pew pew :D
I think anything friendly, building or unit, activates the failsafe.
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Protoss drop play isn't that good? They now have the fastest drop unit and can warp in as many units as they have warpgates. Protoss seems to have the best drop play in the game.
Doesn't seem too bad imho, two queens were just enough to kill it. Place two spines on base and you will be safe of a drop which will cost 400/400 and tank production time from the terran.
I still fear the most marine drops.
Also, 20 swarm hosts looks like shit. I mean, 20 roaches whould have done much more damage with less than half the cost, if they keep the price.
Seems pretty cool. I find it a bit funny how people can QQ about shredder being dropped, when 8 rine drop seems a lot more scary tbh(assuming you aren't a muppet that attack moves the shredder with the drones).
I like the concept of the shredder, I'll be looked forward to seeing if it can be used as the forward guard, infront of the hellions and tanks. Will be pretty epic if it can be done, so the methodical pushes with good control can actually be scary(since atm i feel you are playing against the clock, if you don't get quickly to your opponent, he just has enough time to mass units and overrun you/mutas can kill a lot of shit at your base before helping stop the push).
But yer, again people need to look at "Do you like the concept of the unit" rather than the dps, radius etc. Does it add to the terran arsenal, does it help fill in the weaknesses of the race, will it offer fun gameplay.
shredder imba ' srsly i hope it will not get in the game the way it is right now
also i like how the swarmhost looks exactly like a lurker and spawns mini hydralisks that looks kinda awesome i think i will have to try this out as soon as it goes to the eu servers
after seeing the demo-vid I was afraid that the shredder was going to be OP...but now I'm 100% convinced that this unit will NOT make it into the game exactly like this; (even) Blizz can't be that stupid, stats/cost/etc. will be adjusted, I'm very sure of this now
I'm much more annoyed by the battlecruiser speed-boost, to be honest; take away flux vanes for voidrays? check; give terran the fast lategame air-units? check; sorry for the QQ but what the fuck? speed-rays were completely removed for supposedly being OP vs zerg in lategame and stuff....and now terrans get this cool ability? WHYYYYY???? I want this
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Protoss drop play isn't that good? They now have the fastest drop unit and can warp in as many units as they have warpgates. Protoss seems to have the best drop play in the game.
yeah....no; [insert the cool video with the guy screaming "no, dear god no, noooo" here]
dunno, it looks like the shredder is a lot less overpowered than people give it credit for. three queens killed two shredders. if all else fails, just bring a viper to blinding cloud it and you'll be able to pick it off with ease. by the time the terran has starport tech you should have at least SOME tech.
i dunno why people think shredder is OP from this custom map. IT's actually pretty terrible against T/P, only supposedly useful against Z and even then not that great.
I tried the viper thing, and i was sorta wishing i had overseers back lol. It didn't really feel natural to have to cast a spell on a unit to give it detection. Felt weird as hell.
I only played a few TvT but the warhound aka goliath wannabe is better for dealing with banshees on a small mid-game scale, but lategame thor range i would take over this thing anyday. Maybe they should consider adding a *cough* goliath anti-air range increase upgrade for this thing. Aka give it an upgrade to have the range the thor does.
battle hellion gotta wait till the beta to see, because the custom map version doesn't act like the blizzard one will, the cone damage from the videos is constant, in this it's just the firebat's attack, stop, attack, stop thing..
BC speed i haven't tried, but that's just stupid to give it speed. IT's one of the strongest end-game units, you don't give soemthing like that muta speed...imba as fuck.
hero thor...needs to be removed. CnC units don't belong in starcraft which is what it is. Scrap the mothership, scrap this thing, i don't understand why they think these retarded units will ever work -__-
hmmmm...what else...the swarm lord thing seems pretty good if you can get a lot of them, but it's pretty gas heavy, so it'll be difficult. It feels like this will make a new style for zerg or give them more options...which as a Terran scares the fuck out of me, but i'm sure zergs are smiling because they can choose mass muta, mass infestor ling, or mass something else + mass of these swarm lord things and it will put a lot of pressure on the opponent as these increase in number basically letting zerg do whatever the hell they want.
And then the other side of this unit is sometimes it felt useless as fuck like, "oh hey he's just gonna walk up to them rape em all and then i have no units" "i shoulda built an actual army lol"
oracle seemed strong as fuck, but i don't even think protoss needs a harrass unit like this. like perfect said, it sort of does the same thing as the phoenix. They should just put in the badass dark archon ^_^ and give protoss more abilities, or hell, put the dark archon in the game and give it some of these units abilities like the replicants in some form or the other...dunno, but i think a lot of protoss would rather see dark archon than a lot of these shinanigan units.
replicant is just a dumb unit. I went toss one game, went one of these and then replicated marauders/medivacs and was basically playing Terran as protoss - most pointless thing ever. I think this will be the first unit scrapped, because it just feels dumb and like "hey, protoss is bad, here go be terran or zerg" lol, they should scrap this and make something else or add other things to toss
hmmmm....tbh i doubt a lot of this stuff will even make it to the beta if this is anywhere near close to how some of these things act, and a lot of em are pretty close like the shredder and oracle in this custom map.
Lots of people in this thread just have that "new RTS 'oh wow omg' " feeling from trying the units and aren't thinking straight. It was the same way when i played other RTS and the new expansion came out. People would ohhh and ahh and go "OP!" on first sight, and then later on it would turn out the unit was complete crap. I sort of get that feeling from the shredder, especially from reading this thread's comments about it.
oracle is same thing - either seems like it'll be strong as fuck, or weak as fuck...meh
The biggest thing would be missing mining time. I cant see anybody missing a enemy unit in their base for 10+ seconds. And a Spinecrawler should destroy these things rather easily. A queeen does 4 damage and a spinecrawler does 25.
What makes me sad-panda about this isn't that shredder drops look OP, it's what the counter is.
Yet again, Zerg's best option is to stock up on static or nearly-static defence. More minerals, less gas, less tech - just sit at home and make drones all day while the Terran gets a free choice of which toy he wants to play with this time.
Seriously, Terran gets scans; why the hell can't he play 'guess the tech path or die' once in a while?
On October 31 2011 18:20 Umpteen wrote: What makes me sad-panda about this isn't that shredder drops look OP, it's what the counter is.
Yet again, Zerg's best option is to stock up on static or nearly-static defence. More minerals, less gas, less tech - just sit at home and make drones all day while the Terran gets a free choice of which toy he wants to play with this time.
Seriously, Terran gets scans; why the hell can't he play 'guess the tech path or die' once in a while?
Basically every unit counters the shredder. It actually sucks, contrary to this thread and contrary to the feedback most people are giving.
I'm pretty sure every good player would always rather have a hellion drop rather than drop these things. They take like 4-5 seconds to deploy....a hellion drop you do guaranteed damage.
And funnily enough, it's actually pointless to send these things alone out on the map, because even a marauder or 1 marine out ranges it, and a few roaches can kill it easily.
So...basically the only thing this will ever be good for is putting behind stuff to help against zergling runby's....but even then it's horrible then because if you even have 1 unit move by it for a second, it shuts down lol. So unless you have the great wall of china at your natural or something, it's not that great. Maybe for protecting an opening at your third or something it could be decent, but meh it's definitely not OP in it's current form. No more OP than a hellion drop is - it's actually worse than a hellion drop lol.
I agree that hellion drops would still probably be preferable. I mean there is no way a zerg don't have time to pull away the drones before they deploy. Even if the zerg loses queens or whatever to destroy it, it's still better than loosing a whole bunch of drones like you potentially can do with hellions.
what about this? drop a shredder at your opponents ramp, then drop 2 hellions. deploy shredder on the ramp so the drones cant run to the nat away from the hellions and to delay reinforcements while the hellions clean up the workers.
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
OMG no no nonononononono no. Protoss does not need harassment, they have the deathball advantage going for them, if they were given this level of harassment their deathball advantage would grow even larger... I think moving warp prism to require robo facility is the direction that we want to be moving, warpgates already give bad protoss players (and even some good ones) a huge buffer when it comes to getting out of position, giving them unit like the shredder would be a huge mistake by rewarding bad play even more than warpgate already does.
I think my head just exploded. Some people really have opinions like this?
On October 31 2011 18:37 Kiante wrote: what about this? drop a shredder at your opponents ramp, then drop 2 hellions. deploy shredder on the ramp so the drones cant run to the nat away from the hellions and to delay reinforcements while the hellions clean up the workers.
Doesn't seem to be that hard to stop, since 2 hellions need a lot of time to do enough damage at the mineral line and it should be easy for a few speedlings and a queen to kill 2 hellions out fast enough before they manage to do any serious damage, then all you need to do is to clean up the shredder with queens. ez pz
you just need to learn to leave units at your bases, just like in for example tvt to prevent hellion harass. it's gonna be hard to learn to use more than 1 control group right?
Another idea: Drop Shredder directly on mineral line and 4 marines behind mineral line (to not interfere Shredder weapon). Enemy has two options: - He kill shredder before it deploy, but he will take free hits from marines during this operation - He kill marines first, but he will not be able to kill shredder before it deploys
Both shredder and stimmed marines are high DPS units, and in good conditions either one or another will do significant damage to enemy economy. If enemy focus on Shredder, marines will do more damage then classic drop anyway (they will survive longer). If enemy focus on Marines, shredder will have enough time to deploy and will cut entire expansion (or even entire production if used against Zerg)
On October 31 2011 18:20 Umpteen wrote: What makes me sad-panda about this isn't that shredder drops look OP, it's what the counter is.
Yet again, Zerg's best option is to stock up on static or nearly-static defence. More minerals, less gas, less tech - just sit at home and make drones all day while the Terran gets a free choice of which toy he wants to play with this time.
Seriously, Terran gets scans; why the hell can't he play 'guess the tech path or die' once in a while?
I'm pretty sure every good player would always rather have a hellion drop rather than drop these things. They take like 4-5 seconds to deploy....a hellion drop you do guaranteed damage.
The deploy time's about double that, I think.
When I read these threads about the shredder and the overseer's removal, I have to wonder: why are so many zergs seemingly opposed to needing to get static defenses? A single spine in your mineral line shuts down shredders(outranges them by 2), and then you just need to run your drones away while it's deploying. The overseer may be getting removed, but you still have spores, and a single spore can easily shut down DTs or cloaked banshees assuming you have a queen at every expansion. 2 defensive structures per base(only about 10 drones in a long game), and you basically shut down any new harassment options coming in HotS.
On October 31 2011 18:27 avilo wrote: Basically every unit counters the shredder. It actually sucks, contrary to this thread and contrary to the feedback most people are giving.
...Next time you start giving your opinion that a unit sucks, try and make sure you aren't playing the race it's for.
I think the Shredder is absolutely ridiculous right now, not because of balance issues at the higher regions, but because of problems anywhere from Bronze to Gold, where players are going to rush for Shredders, not get punished, and own a mineral line against all three races. I don't like this unit's harass potential and I hope they don't allow you to drop it - it's not meant to be used for harassment, so why would you include that?
On October 31 2011 18:20 Umpteen wrote: What makes me sad-panda about this isn't that shredder drops look OP, it's what the counter is.
Yet again, Zerg's best option is to stock up on static or nearly-static defence. More minerals, less gas, less tech - just sit at home and make drones all day while the Terran gets a free choice of which toy he wants to play with this time.
Seriously, Terran gets scans; why the hell can't he play 'guess the tech path or die' once in a while?
Basically every unit counters the shredder.
First of all, no they don't. Zerg has two units that outrange the shredder, as opposed to all of yours. Secondly, you can't just think in terms of raw unit counters. That's meaningless. What matters is what you can have, when, and the consequences of having to get them.
It actually sucks, contrary to this thread and contrary to the feedback most people are giving.
MVP didn't seem to think they sucked. Nestea ended up trying to break a shredder contain with broodlords, and it didn't work
I'm pretty sure every good player would always rather have a hellion drop rather than drop these things. They take like 4-5 seconds to deploy....a hellion drop you do guaranteed damage.
I really don't care which is better. Presumably one of hellion drop / hellion harass into Banshees is also 'better', but I still have to face both of them on a regular basis. This will just be one more Terran strategy that pushes me into staying at home and making drones instead of doing anything remotely interesting.
On October 31 2011 19:01 Exarian wrote: Another idea: Drop Shredder directly on mineral line and 4 marines behind mineral line (to not interfere Shredder weapon). Enemy has two options: - He kill shredder before it deploy, but he will take free hits from marines during this operation - He kill marines first, but he will not be able to kill shredder before it deploys
Both shredder and stimmed marines are high DPS units, and in good conditions either one or another will do significant damage to enemy economy. If enemy focus on Shredder, marines will do more damage then classic drop anyway (they will survive longer). If enemy focus on Marines, shredder will have enough time to deploy and will cut entire expansion (or even entire production if used against Zerg)
I have a better idea. Just drop 8 marines into his mineral line. And yeah it will cost 150 gas less.
And before u say something about the cost - check out liquipedia.
i completely agree with the people saying spine crawlers should stop this no problem. honestly, a dropship full of marines is probably as effective in harassing the mineral line than this thing.
On October 31 2011 18:20 Umpteen wrote: What makes me sad-panda about this isn't that shredder drops look OP, it's what the counter is.
Yet again, Zerg's best option is to stock up on static or nearly-static defence. More minerals, less gas, less tech - just sit at home and make drones all day while the Terran gets a free choice of which toy he wants to play with this time.
Seriously, Terran gets scans; why the hell can't he play 'guess the tech path or die' once in a while?
I'm pretty sure every good player would always rather have a hellion drop rather than drop these things. They take like 4-5 seconds to deploy....a hellion drop you do guaranteed damage.
The deploy time's about double that, I think.
When I read these threads about the shredder and the overseer's removal, I have to wonder: why are so many zergs seemingly opposed to needing to get static defenses?
I'm not opposed to needing static defences under some circumstances. I'm opposed to Zerg being funneled into building queens, drones, spines and spores every game.
Think about it this way: queens, spines and spores are mineral heavy and consume workers, right? Building a queen is like building a barracks. Building a spine-crawler is like building a barracks and then shooting the SCV who made it. We also need to expand quickly and defend two bases. We're also trying to invest in our economy, because nothing else we do has much chance of paying off in the early game, right? So we're kind of forced to be all about the minerals - hence no fun toys for us.
The overseer may be getting removed, but you still have spores, and a single spore can easily shut down DTs or cloaked banshees assuming you have a queen at every expansion. 2 defensive structures per base(only about 10 drones in a long game), and you basically shut down any new harassment options coming in HotS.
That is... oversimplifying, to put it kindly Building a spore crawler is a fine precaution against one banshee or one DT, but it doesn't scale as a solution. Absolutely, late on, spines and spores all over to guard against a cheeky DT comeback. No argument there. What I'm talking about is the shape of the early game and how dull and passive Zerg is forced to be.
On October 31 2011 19:27 Supamang wrote: i completely agree with the people saying spine crawlers should stop this no problem. honestly, a dropship full of marines is probably as effective in harassing the mineral line than this thing.
I've said this already (I think), but people forget about the TIME it takes to get rid of a drop. Speedlings are the perfect drop-killers since they are fast and are good vs marines when the numbers are right (which is basicly always the case vs drops). Even though marines deal terrible damage to drones, speedlings are a perfect unit to counter-act.
The shredder though is the hard counter to the zergling which means that the zerg has to use "some" other unit to kill it - and this other unit will be slower. People are saying "clever spine-crawler-placement". Big herp-derp, right now zergs aren't even able to defend vs chargelots properly with spine-crawlers.... At the very least the mere threat of something like that forces two "default" spine-crawlers so the whole mineral-line is defended. That's...the cost of a hatchery.
I'm protoss btw, just so that there's no confusion about bias.
I also played around with them in the custom game, roaches dont die to them too quickly plus kill them reasonably fast.
That deploy time is pretty huge, if you can't pull drones in time something is wrong.
Also, I bet Blizzard wont be releasing them in their current state, changes will be made long before HOTS is released so that they are as balanced as possible.
Zerg can get more drones and more minerals than other races, it's not bad for them to be "forced to funnel minerals into defenses", as that works as a tax on their income that's needed to balance the game. And you know, terran was forced to get missile turrets against zerg in brood war, did that make for a bad game? Having to set up drop defense is hardly bad, given how much drops are a core mechanic of the game.
Honestly, after messing around with this, it doesn't seem as unreasonable as I first thought it may have been. You get what appears to be to me a fair amount of time to respond and make your drones flee.
It may just be another thing you'll need to consider in the midgame, along with all of the other terran harass possibilities. Not that they really needed anymore options...but you know!
It needs a lot of tweaking (deploy time, health, dps, maybe build time, but I don't see a problem asthe core concept of this unit is good in my opinion (space control) eventhough I'm a zerg I'm not really worried about that. I think the problematic units are more likely to be the tempest and the swarm host, that have shitty design ( tempest : capital ship to fight mutas? , probably only going to make the deathball stronger, swarm host: redundant with broodlords)
Problem with spine is simple. You MUST know shredder drop i coming. Spreading spines around bases is not economical solution. Building spine after Shredder is deployed is nit good solution too - it will delay mining for long time [build time+time required to kill shredder]. Shredder drops are going to be low-risk [I know, 150/150, but it is less then 2 mutas - and how many damage you can do with 2 mutas?] high reward [if enemy fail to react in 4 in-game seconds (3 real seconds), you cleared his mineral lines using 150/150 unit... and you still have this unit.
IMO Terran in HotS are going to have best-by far- harassment options in the entire game. Hellion(now can transform to firebat!)+regenerating Reapers + Shredders... Plus classic MM Drop play... Cloaked Banshees... OMG.
Haha, if someone took that long to pull drones away from a marine drop behind their mineral line they'd have lost everything =p
I still don't really get this analysis/speculation over a game that's basically still in alpha, all numbers are subject to change (hell I'm sure almost everything gets tweaked in one way or another from how it is now to how it even is when the beta is released)
On October 31 2011 20:54 Exarian wrote: Problem with spine is simple. You MUST know shredder drop i coming. Spreading spines around bases is not economical solution. Building spine after Shredder is deployed is nit good solution too - it will delay mining for long time [build time+time required to kill shredder]. Shredder drops are going to be low-risk [I know, 150/150, but it is less then 2 mutas - and how many damage you can do with 2 mutas?] high reward [if enemy fail to react in 4 in-game seconds (3 real seconds), you cleared his mineral lines using 150/150 unit... and you still have this unit.
IMO Terran in HotS are going to have best-by far- harassment options in the entire game. Hellion(now can transform to firebat!)+regenerating Reapers + Shredders... Plus classic MM Drop play... Cloaked Banshees... OMG.
So, what is wrong with premptively building a spinecrawler like a lot of Zergs do now anyway? If you build it at the front, you can crawl it back in range of the shredder while it burrows. 100 Minerals + a drone seems at least a little reasonable for defensing. Alternatively, you could just place evo chambers or other structures in the way to block them from burrowing, though that may not be the most effective thing.
I hate to get too caught up in this now, though, given that it's still early development and we have no idea if it's going to make release as it is or not.
On October 31 2011 20:51 Grumbels wrote: Zerg can get more drones and more minerals than other races, it's not bad for them to be "forced to funnel minerals into defenses", as that works as a tax on their income that's needed to balance the game. And you know, terran was forced to get missile turrets against zerg in brood war, did that make for a bad game? Having to set up drop defense is hardly bad, given how much drops are a core mechanic of the game.
You're missing the point, which is when Zergs need to spend these minerals, what they need to scout in order to prepare, and how their strategies are impacted.
If you look at Zerg in the early game, they are behind in workers and income. Their ability to spend on drones makes it possible for them to gradually overcome that deficit and get into the lead. If the 'mineral tax' comes at a bad time, or cannot be avoided...
My biggest worry is that shredder drops will look exactly like a banshee build, meaning I'll have to build spines AND spores in both mineral lines, AND queens.
Zerg is already under a lot of pressure to play passively and low-tech. Frankly I'm fucked if I'll spend HotS making two kinds of units for the first fifteen minutes and needing half an hour to take a game off a Terran. Been there, done that.
Its a very problematic unit to balance if its supposed to work with a radiation field. If you tone the dmg down, but then it wont actually help versus zergling runbys as they can pass through without dieing.
Important difference between Marine Drop and Shredder Drop: - If marines are dropped, you immediately get alert (units under attack), and you can react in matter if milliseconds - If Shredder is dropped, you don't get any alert until it is deployed
So 3 second to react against marine drop are ages, while 3 seconds to react against shredder drop is probably not enough, especially if you have more then 2 bases.
Also it is extremely important, Shredder is damaging Larvae/Eggs, so 3 well-placed shredders are, in theory, able to completely shut down 3 Zerg bases (no production + no resources collection)
what i think is really difficult about this unit is that if you miss it coming on the mini map, during their vulnerable stage you wont get the "our units are under attack" message. he could just lay them in the mineral line, the queen wont have time to kill it. no reason to lay them behind it.
just seems to be another way to reaaalllly punish someone for a tiny mistake, the new blue flame drop
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
I read this and I couldn't agree more, protoss does have any unit that is good at zoning or holding a position like tanks/burrowed banes/swarmhost. Shredders are like mini tanks without friendly splash, I don't get why terrans needed this. What was blizzard design philosophy behind it? Tempest to counter air, swarmhost to pressure, viper to break tanklines, what's the shredder for? Holding ground? But the tanks already does that
On October 31 2011 21:12 sparkz wrote: Zerg is screwed =[
OH REALLY?! Because you have totally tried HotS in hundreds of games to determine that Zerg will be completely underpowered and run over in every single matchup, RIGHT?! It's just so fun that the "Omg terran imba" still exists from the WoL beta, the only reason people still bitch about this imbalance is because the korean terrans are a couple of times better than the protoss and zerg players in GSL, but that's of course how you determine balance right? On the results of 64 players in a korean tournament, fucking imbeciles.
Every single unit in HotS will most likely change, and so will the OPRIDICULOUSSHREDDER too, most likely. And if it doesn't suit you that more units are introduced then go play another game.
The shredder in this video actually has shorter range than the one from the blizzcon build doesnt it? The lings dont take damage until they are almost already at the shredder, while in the blizzcon video they are already in the red when they reach the shredder.
On October 31 2011 20:51 Grumbels wrote: Zerg can get more drones and more minerals than other races, it's not bad for them to be "forced to funnel minerals into defenses", as that works as a tax on their income that's needed to balance the game. And you know, terran was forced to get missile turrets against zerg in brood war, did that make for a bad game? Having to set up drop defense is hardly bad, given how much drops are a core mechanic of the game.
You're missing the point, which is when Zergs need to spend these minerals, what they need to scout in order to prepare, and how their strategies are impacted.
If you look at Zerg in the early game, they are behind in workers and income. Their ability to spend on drones makes it possible for them to gradually overcome that deficit and get into the lead. If the 'mineral tax' comes at a bad time, or cannot be avoided...
My biggest worry is that shredder drops will look exactly like a banshee build, meaning I'll have to build spines AND spores in both mineral lines, AND queens.
Zerg is already under a lot of pressure to play passively and low-tech. Frankly I'm fucked if I'll spend HotS making two kinds of units for the first fifteen minutes and needing half an hour to take a game off a Terran. Been there, done that.
?? shredders take half a lifetime to deploy, you can just kill them during that time with your zerglings. This is just taking a minor thing and blowing it up: zerg needs minerals early game, yet we're forced to make drop defenses and then we will spiral ever further behind.
I just don't see how early game shredder drops are a problem, unless you're a horrible player. But then you'd lose to a marine drop too. Mid to late game you can indeed just set up defenses, even with the consequences to the world economy as you stated.
No "units under attack" alert is probably the most difficult part of defending against this unit in drop play. And it definitely makes Terran in HotS strongest harasser (by large margin), as addition to already strong harassment options.
Also please note, one spine crawler on mineral line is not enough to defeat shredder. Terran can deploy shredder behind your hatchery, on the one of mineral field corners etc. etc. - are these places will damage your eco/production hard, and there is no way to protect them with only one spine. You need at least 3, or even 4 spines to fell safe (2 on mineral line, one behind the hatch) - in each base.
One more thing: do Terran really need so many weapons with splash?
In HotS terran have: - Hellion (two different types of splash, depending on unit mode) - Siege tank - Warhound (against air) - Shredder - Ghost (nuke and EMP) - Battlecruiser (Yamato Gun) - New Thor (shoulder cannons now work like in campaign) - Raven (HSM) - Planetary Fortress
Compare this to Toss: - Colossi - High Templar (Storm) - Archon - Tempest (against Air) - Replicator (depending on transformation)
Or Zerg: - Infestor (Fungal) - Baneling (Melee, suicide) - Mutalisk (33% damage to second and 11% to third target... lol) - Ultralisk (Melee)
On October 31 2011 18:55 PredY wrote: you just need to learn to leave units at your bases, just like in for example tvt to prevent hellion harass. it's gonna be hard to learn to use more than 1 control group right?
Gj, love theese comments. Noob l2p they are fine. Obviously they are not fine. But on the other side, they won't be released at this state. In the TL intwerview with Dustin, he said that the shredder is too strong atm.
If they nerf this thing somehow and it's in the game then sure, mapawarness will be really important as you gotta strike before they set up, and they wont trigger attack warnings.
On October 31 2011 21:33 Exarian wrote: No "units under attack" alert is probably the most difficult part of defending against this unit in drop play. And it definitely makes Terran in HotS strongest harasser (by large margin), as addition to already strong harassment options.
Also please note, one spine crawler on mineral line is not enough to defeat shredder. Terran can deploy shredder behind your hatchery, on the one of mineral field corners etc. etc. - are these places will damage your eco/production hard, and there is no way to protect them with only one spine. You need at least 3, or even 4 spines to fell safe (2 on mineral line, one behind the hatch) - in each base.
One more thing: do Terran really need so many weapons with splash?
In HotS terran have: - Hellion (two different types of splash, depending on unit mode) - Siege tank - Warhound (against air) - Shredder - Ghost (nuke and EMP) - Battlecruiser (Yamato Gun) - New Thor (shoulder cannons now work like in campaign) - Raven (HSM) - Planetary Fortress
Compare this to Toss: - Colossi - High Templar (Storm) - Archon - Tempest (against Air) - Replicator (depending on transformation)
Or Zerg: - Infestor (Fungal) - Baneling (Melee, suicide) - Mutalisk (33% damage to second and 11% to third target... lol) - Ultralisk (Melee)
On October 31 2011 21:12 sparkz wrote: Zerg is screwed =[
OH REALLY?! Because you have totally tried HotS in hundreds of games to determine that Zerg will be completely underpowered and run over in every single matchup, RIGHT?! It's just so fun that the "Omg terran imba" still exists from the WoL beta, the only reason people still bitch about this imbalance is because the korean terrans are a couple of times better than the protoss and zerg players in GSL, but that's of course how you determine balance right? On the results of 64 players in a korean tournament, fucking imbeciles.
Every single unit in HotS will most likely change, and so will the OPRIDICULOUSSHREDDER too, most likely. And if it doesn't suit you that more units are introduced then go play another game.
Shredder is fine.
OH REALLY?! Because you totaly tried HoTS in hundreds of games to determine that Zerg will not be completely underpower and run over in every single games, RIGHT?!
He ONLY said "Zerg is screwed =[", and that's how you respond? "Imbecile", really? Are you freaking kidding me? You deserve an holy ban, seriously.
I have news for you, tho. Terran will probably be nerfed 3 or 4 times before HotS release. If that doesn't suit you, go play another game, thanks.
it takes 8 seconds to deploy right? I wouldnt be surprised if lings can kill it before deployment. At times, spinecrawlers should work as well I guess.
Would probably still be a great late game harass unit.
But lets first see how and if they are going to tweek this unit.
Shredder actually seems reasonable because the queens can manage to pick them off with minimal damage, but its defencive role is too OP. It gives Terrans more ease in turtling Battlecruiser upgrade is quite silly. We'll be seeing more "mass" bc builds in the late game I guess... especially because corruptors are gone. -_- Swarm host is the most OP thing here I think. It's basically an underground broodlord and the DPS of its "minions" or whatever they are is pretty retardedly strong, like the broodlord. Broodlord-Swarm host army anyone?
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Warp prism + sentries + HT. There, it's already in the game. It's more expensive than say T's drops, but just as if not more powerful.
Protoss drops are fine.
I see terran drops in progames nearly every game, I wonder why dont I see p drops if they are even more powerful
Doesn't seem imbalanced at all to me, this is just like a templar drop but with the playing responding VERY slowly. Storm drop is much more dangerous and harder to spot in time by comparison.
Giving the shredder to terran seems silly though as they already have such possibilities for map control. TvP terran has total map control by having the faster army and medivacs and in TvZ terran has fine map control too with hellions and medivacs. If the shredder can't hit air it won't change a thing at all really.. I had rather seen it as a toss unit.
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Warp prism + sentries + HT. There, it's already in the game. It's more expensive than say T's drops, but just as if not more powerful.
Protoss drops are fine.
I see terran drops in progames nearly every game, I wonder why dont I see p drops if they are even more powerful
Because until recently everyone said warp prisms are paper airplanes that die too fast (something i never agreed with), so noone built them which of course made it impossible to drop.
Storm drops are devastating and i predict that we will see them in the future, now that the warp prism got an image boost.
On October 31 2011 21:33 Exarian wrote: No "units under attack" alert is probably the most difficult part of defending against this unit in drop play. And it definitely makes Terran in HotS strongest harasser (by large margin), as addition to already strong harassment options.
Also please note, one spine crawler on mineral line is not enough to defeat shredder. Terran can deploy shredder behind your hatchery, on the one of mineral field corners etc. etc. - are these places will damage your eco/production hard, and there is no way to protect them with only one spine. You need at least 3, or even 4 spines to fell safe (2 on mineral line, one behind the hatch) - in each base.
One more thing: do Terran really need so many weapons with splash?
In HotS terran have: - Hellion (two different types of splash, depending on unit mode) - Siege tank - Warhound (against air) - Shredder - Ghost (nuke and EMP) - Battlecruiser (Yamato Gun) - New Thor (shoulder cannons now work like in campaign) - Raven (HSM) - Planetary Fortress
Compare this to Toss: - Colossi - High Templar (Storm) - Archon - Tempest (against Air) - Replicator (depending on transformation)
Or Zerg: - Infestor (Fungal) - Baneling (Melee, suicide) - Mutalisk (33% damage to second and 11% to third target... lol) - Ultralisk (Melee)
Unfair? Probably...
The only thing you forgot is Viper "Anti-Dark swarm".It balances things out.
Toss has Cannons + Warp for defense. Terran has to leave units behind for defense. And to actually prevent/decently delay a run by you have to leave quite a few units, 2-4 tanks and a few marines or 20 lings will eat your defense no problems. I assume that's the reason for the Shredder's existence, prevent lings/blings. Disables on friendly units because it's not supposed to help with attack/once your army is there. It also is useless against an attacking force (roach and hydra should kill these quite fast).
They'll have to change it quite a bit for the lower leagues. Who pays attention to the minimap there?
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Warp prism + sentries + HT. There, it's already in the game. It's more expensive than say T's drops, but just as if not more powerful.
Protoss drops are fine.
I see terran drops in progames nearly every game, I wonder why dont I see p drops if they are even more powerful
Because until recently everyone said warp prisms are paper airplanes that die too fast (something i never agreed with), so noone built them which of course made it impossible to drop.
Storm drops are devastating and i predict that we will see them in the future, now that the warp prism got an image boost.
Storm drops will never be too good on pro level. A prism will get noticed and all the terran has to do is evac scvs when there is threat and go back seconds later. Compare the drops: - a terran drop not only forces evac it also actually kills stuff even if workers are evacuated. U cant ignore the terran drop or it will kill important buildings while u can just spread out your scvs, let the storms go off, go back to mining, and go try to kill the protoss while he has much less AoE now. - terran drop is available at around 8-00(?) while you can get HT drop realistically at 14-00(?). Not only u need to get the tech available u need to wait for energy to build up - terran risks mineral only units while p risks extremely gas expensive units.
Also toss don't use harass in PvT atm because they are too concerned about getting their tech up off of 2 base. After that they have to focus on their huge ball not to die because they've invested too much in it. Heavy harassment would work great with adelscott style but sadly no one is doint it atm
Thanks for this thread. Didnt know about the custom games before I read it. But after fooling around with the custom with a friend I can easily say I really enjoy the zerg changes.
I cant see why people think the zerg changes are OP though. They pale compared to the T changes. The zerg changes actually seem quite balanced. But the shredder alone is so darn hard to deal with. I don't think people get how fast they can be dropped all over to totally make a zerg base null and void. Its a cool idea for a defensive unit (although terran doesnt need it considering planetary and siege tanks), but as a unit that can be used for both (especially agressive use), its totally broken.
And if people think it cant be used to add to the deathball they are so wrong. Screening the tanks the tankpush is unstoppable. What a stupid unit.... I really hope it doesnt make it to release.
to the people who think that the shredder shouldn't be able to burrow on creep - no offense, but my biased protoss-soul wants to scream out: why should the shredder be so much more powerful vs protoss? I don't see the logic behind this.
On October 31 2011 22:29 Ravnemesteren wrote: Thanks for this thread. Didnt know about the custom games before I read it. But after fooling around with the custom with a friend I can easily say I really enjoy the zerg changes.
I cant see why people think the zerg changes are OP though. They pale compared to the T changes. The zerg changes actually seem quite balanced. But the shredder alone is so darn hard to deal with. I don't think people get how fast they can be dropped all over to totally make a zerg base null and void. Its a cool idea for a defensive unit (although terran doesnt need it considering planetary and siege tanks), but as a unit that can be used for both (especially agressive use), its totally broken.
And if people think it cant be used to add to the deathball they are so wrong. Screening the tanks the tankpush is unstoppable. What a stupid unit.... I really hope it doesnt make it to release.
I think it's ok, the only thing that needs to be removed is the ability to be transported. It should be classified as building.
That way the only way to use shredders for harass is to either build them in his base or run them straight through the front door into his mineral line... and in either case, the Zerg deserves what happens to him then.
As for protecting against flanks, the Shredder slows down the terran army even more and makes it almost immobile, so it shouldn't be too hard to deal with.
On October 31 2011 22:29 Ravnemesteren wrote: Thanks for this thread. Didnt know about the custom games before I read it. But after fooling around with the custom with a friend I can easily say I really enjoy the zerg changes.
I cant see why people think the zerg changes are OP though. They pale compared to the T changes. The zerg changes actually seem quite balanced. But the shredder alone is so darn hard to deal with. I don't think people get how fast they can be dropped all over to totally make a zerg base null and void. Its a cool idea for a defensive unit (although terran doesnt need it considering planetary and siege tanks), but as a unit that can be used for both (especially agressive use), its totally broken.
And if people think it cant be used to add to the deathball they are so wrong. Screening the tanks the tankpush is unstoppable. What a stupid unit.... I really hope it doesnt make it to release.
I think it's ok, the only thing that needs to be removed is the ability to be transported. It should be classified as building.
That way the only way to use shredders for harass is to either build them in his base or run them straight through the front door into his mineral line... and in either case, the Zerg deserves what happens to him then.
As for protecting against flanks, the Shredder slows down the terran army even more and makes it almost immobile, so it shouldn't be too hard to deal with.
If the thor can be transported why cant a shredder be?
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Warp prism + sentries + HT. There, it's already in the game. It's more expensive than say T's drops, but just as if not more powerful.
Protoss drops are fine.
I see terran drops in progames nearly every game, I wonder why dont I see p drops if they are even more powerful
Because until recently everyone said warp prisms are paper airplanes that die too fast (something i never agreed with), so noone built them which of course made it impossible to drop.
Storm drops are devastating and i predict that we will see them in the future, now that the warp prism got an image boost.
Storm drops will never be too good on pro level. A prism will get noticed and all the terran has to do is evac scvs when there is threat and go back seconds later. Compare the drops: - a terran drop not only forces evac it also actually kills stuff even if workers are evacuated. U cant ignore the terran drop or it will kill important buildings while u can just spread out your scvs, let the storms go off, go back to mining, and go try to kill the protoss while he has much less AoE now. - terran drop is available at around 8-00(?) while you can get HT drop realistically at 14-00(?). Not only u need to get the tech available u need to wait for energy to build up - terran risks mineral only units while p risks extremely gas expensive units.
Zealots drops seem to work out great for White-Ra every time ^^.
Besides you can always drop the main with some sentries and FF the ramp.
On October 31 2011 22:29 Ravnemesteren wrote: Thanks for this thread. Didnt know about the custom games before I read it. But after fooling around with the custom with a friend I can easily say I really enjoy the zerg changes.
I cant see why people think the zerg changes are OP though. They pale compared to the T changes. The zerg changes actually seem quite balanced. But the shredder alone is so darn hard to deal with. I don't think people get how fast they can be dropped all over to totally make a zerg base null and void. Its a cool idea for a defensive unit (although terran doesnt need it considering planetary and siege tanks), but as a unit that can be used for both (especially agressive use), its totally broken.
And if people think it cant be used to add to the deathball they are so wrong. Screening the tanks the tankpush is unstoppable. What a stupid unit.... I really hope it doesnt make it to release.
I think it's ok, the only thing that needs to be removed is the ability to be transported. It should be classified as building.
That way the only way to use shredders for harass is to either build them in his base or run them straight through the front door into his mineral line... and in either case, the Zerg deserves what happens to him then.
As for protecting against flanks, the Shredder slows down the terran army even more and makes it almost immobile, so it shouldn't be too hard to deal with.
they wouldn't cost supply at that point, and blizzard's goal of not adding to the terran "death ball" will be negated.
I think the shredder might have a bit too much health and maybe armor in those videos, but that's about it. Dropping them in the mineral line is fine, since most players will notice the red blip on their screen and run away their workers before the shredders have deployed.
On October 31 2011 10:07 avilo wrote: Holy shit people need to stop whining and making huge blanket statements. I can't imagine some of you guys in brood war if the community were this big back then.
"what the fuck blizzard spider mines fucking RIDICULOUS - i have to have obs everywhere on the map or my army instantly evaporates"
Like seriously, can you imagine the brood war whine fest there would be if the games positions in time were in reverse? "omg dark swarm, omg irradiate, omg psi storm, omg lurker kill entire worker line in two shot, omg omg omg"
Seriously, stop. Stuff like this is exactly what brood war had and look at how fucking balanced brood war is.
It's good that each race gets some things that appear at first sight to be ridiculous, because in reality they won't be.
what makes brood war brilliant is how EVERYTHING is overpowered. but the different races overpoweredness balances each other out.
what i dislike about sc2 is that it seems rather than make everything overpowered to balance the game theyve gone for everything boringly normal. althought to be fair with clumping it makes it a hard job. as a 1 bw style storm would probably kill a 200/200 ball army
although i kind of disagreed with blue flame hellions being as overpowered as they were, because they were so fast as well. with any other harrass unit reacting quickly and running your probes allowed you to take minimal damage but hellions speed + splash system meant running probes usually cost you more casualties
Commenting on whether it is OP or not seems pointless - the stats can always be changed.
What dislike is that I feel like Terran is already very well defended against harassing Zerglings, encouraging the Zerg to keep all of his army in one place at a time.
Harass being automatically handled is BAD, challenging the gamers is GOOD.
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Yeah, I would also like to have the shredder...seems like it would complement the protoss-arsenal pretty well. Good vs run-bys (terrans already have tanks and planetary ffs), useful for drops and impossible to just add into the 1a-deathball, that so many have been complaining about since release.
I'd gladly trade it for the oracle....or the replicator...or the tempest now that I think of it
On October 31 2011 22:55 Gigaudas wrote: Harass being automatically handled is BAD, challenging the gamers is GOOD.
if they add the shredder to terran, they should just remove the planetary....why not?
Blizzard said themselevs that they made these units to be Overpowered so that they can be dumbed down. I highly doubt things will be this stupid come HoTS
The shredder is a stupid unit imo. Used to negate ling counterattacks, it completely remove something out of the game instead of adding something, and it removes a certain skill out of the game for both terran and zerg (the ability to counterattack / defend counterattacks). I really don't like it.
On October 31 2011 22:59 Cyro wrote: The shredder stats are WRONG. It does 20dps. Drones are shown surviving three damage ticks, how is this possible? They have 40hp.
We know two things as fact for the shredder. In game time, it has an 8 second siege time, and it does 20 damage every second.
Those lings wouldnt have been able to hit it that much, and the drones would have been 2 shot.
Didn't Blizzard say that all the units shown in HotS was a tad over the top, just to show of their abilities? I mean it might be a bit to early to whine about it already.
On October 31 2011 22:59 Cyro wrote: The shredder stats are WRONG. It does 20dps. Drones are shown surviving three damage ticks, how is this possible? They have 40hp.
We know two things as fact for the shredder. In game time, it has an 8 second siege time, and it does 20 damage every second.
Those lings wouldnt have been able to hit it that much, and the drones would have been 2 shot.
40+1regeneration?
No, they survive 3 hits.
They dont start dieing til the fourth.
If it did 20 damage, it would take them to 1hp with 2 hits and kill them with a third, but it takes 4 hits to kill.
Look at the lings, they definatly dont get two shot either, even though they have 35hp.
On October 31 2011 23:03 Psychobabas wrote: Hilarious that Zergs and Protoss are crying already.
At least now I can drink my chalice of Z and P tears again. Cheers.
Mmmm, so good protoss and zerg tears. Cheers
Im sure you will be whining when you have been lower winrate than P and Z for 15 months and are outnumbered 4 to 1 in GSL by another race
nope terrans never whine they race switch, we are adaptable *-* . Shredder drops look so terrible weak. But i like the lings running into shredders. All the hidden baneling mines and the hold posi lukers will get returned now. And the unit only has range 4 and can be seen. BW terrans probably think i wish lurkers would be that easy to spot.
On October 31 2011 23:03 Psychobabas wrote: Hilarious that Zergs and Protoss are crying already.
At least now I can drink my chalice of Z and P tears again. Cheers.
Mmmm, so good protoss and zerg tears. Cheers
Im sure you will be whining when you have been lower winrate than P and Z for 15 months and are outnumbered 4 to 1 in GSL by another race
Sure but remember that Blizzard is interested in balancing from Bronze all the way to the Pros.
Apart from GSL, the reality for Terran is very different.
It's not even GSL, it's ONLY Code S. Code A even has a rather small showing for T.
That being said, there are things about the shredder than we don't know, like if the damage aura stacks. Do we even know if the range is the same from Blizzcon to this mod?
On October 31 2011 23:17 aksfjh wrote: It's not even GSL, it's ONLY Code S. Code A even has a rather small showing for T.
That being said, there are things about the shredder than we don't know, like if the damage aura stacks. Do we even know if the range is the same from Blizzcon to this mod?
That the damage does not stack has been confirmed by blizzard. It's right there in their presentation. As for the range I cannot say.
On October 31 2011 23:17 aksfjh wrote: It's not even GSL, it's ONLY Code S. Code A even has a rather small showing for T.
That being said, there are things about the shredder than we don't know, like if the damage aura stacks. Do we even know if the range is the same from Blizzcon to this mod?
That the damage does not stack has been confirmed by blizzard. It's right there in their presentation. As for the range I cannot say.
That answers that, thanks. Since that's the case, I hardly see how this unit can be considered OP since 2 weeks after release we'll have spread sheets telling us how many of what unit we need to kill shredders without losing anything. Obviously, use will be more dynamic than that, but their "space control" aspects will probably have most utilization as retreat insurance. Leaving them on their own, like you might do with mines, is not likely. That is unless you just place down 20 of them along an attack corridor, but I'm sure that would be more of a troll situation than anything.
On October 31 2011 23:17 aksfjh wrote: It's not even GSL, it's ONLY Code S. Code A even has a rather small showing for T.
That being said, there are things about the shredder than we don't know, like if the damage aura stacks. Do we even know if the range is the same from Blizzcon to this mod?
That the damage does not stack has been confirmed by blizzard. It's right there in their presentation. As for the range I cannot say.
Range is 3 btw.
That make the only unit able to kill them without being hit are Hydra.
On October 31 2011 22:55 Gigaudas wrote: Commenting on whether it is OP or not seems pointless - the stats can always be changed.
What dislike is that I feel like Terran is already very well defended against harassing Zerglings, encouraging the Zerg to keep all of his army in one place at a time.
Harass being automatically handled is BAD, challenging the gamers is GOOD.
Taking a third on maps like Metallopolis is ALMOST impossible as terran because a competent zerg will always attack your expo and run away as soon as he sees your units. The same can be said for protoss, but warp-in kinda help against that.
And please stop saying that siege tanks and PF helps defending. Siege tanks do too little damage so defending an expansion with JUST tanks is not suitable. A PF needs time to morph and a zerg can take an advantage from that.
On October 31 2011 23:03 Psychobabas wrote: Hilarious that Zergs and Protoss are crying already.
At least now I can drink my chalice of Z and P tears again. Cheers.
Mmmm, so good protoss and zerg tears. Cheers
Im sure you will be whining when you have been lower winrate than P and Z for 15 months and are outnumbered 4 to 1 in GSL by another race
nope terrans never whine they race switch, we are adaptable *-* . Shredder drops look so terrible weak. But i like the lings running into shredders. All the hidden baneling mines and the hold posi lukers will get returned now. And the unit only has range 4 and can be seen. BW terrans probably think i wish lurkers would be that easy to spot.
L O MOTHERFUCKING L.. This is some of the funniest shit ive read in a while..
That being said.. The drops do not look weak at all
Seems like everything just dies about 3 seconds in
We will also see how much Terran QQ's when Protoss replicate the Shredder
On October 31 2011 23:03 Psychobabas wrote: Hilarious that Zergs and Protoss are crying already.
At least now I can drink my chalice of Z and P tears again. Cheers.
Mmmm, so good protoss and zerg tears. Cheers
Im sure you will be whining when you have been lower winrate than P and Z for 15 months and are outnumbered 4 to 1 in GSL by another race
nope terrans never whine they race switch, we are adaptable *-* . Shredder drops look so terrible weak. But i like the lings running into shredders. All the hidden baneling mines and the hold posi lukers will get returned now. And the unit only has range 4 and can be seen. BW terrans probably think i wish lurkers would be that easy to spot.
Lol, Terrans whine as much as anybody. Remember when Zergs started to use Infestors more? Terran tears as far as the eye could see for at least a solid month straight.
The Shredder takes so long to activate that the drops should not be that effective compared to something like a Marine drop. Shredders are also expensive, and pretty much mean one less Siege Tank for the Terran army. I wouldn't worry about them at all.
On October 31 2011 23:17 aksfjh wrote: It's not even GSL, it's ONLY Code S. Code A even has a rather small showing for T.
That being said, there are things about the shredder than we don't know, like if the damage aura stacks. Do we even know if the range is the same from Blizzcon to this mod?
That the damage does not stack has been confirmed by blizzard. It's right there in their presentation. As for the range I cannot say.
Range is 3 btw.
That make the only unit able to kill them without being hit are Hydra.
On October 31 2011 23:17 aksfjh wrote: It's not even GSL, it's ONLY Code S. Code A even has a rather small showing for T.
That being said, there are things about the shredder than we don't know, like if the damage aura stacks. Do we even know if the range is the same from Blizzcon to this mod?
That the damage does not stack has been confirmed by blizzard. It's right there in their presentation. As for the range I cannot say.
Range is 3 btw.
That make the only unit able to kill them without being hit are Hydra.
Yeah, but to counter that, Zerg are rumoured to get another new unit with HotS. It's called roach.
If you want to discuss the shredder, please discuss its basic design, not its stats.
Ok, bear with me, friends. I'm going to let out what's fundamentally bugging me about this unit (because otherwise I'm going to explode), and then everyone can correct me and I can get back to looking forward to the expansion:
I hope that the replicant is a flying unit and just hovering. That way, you can fly into the mineral line of a terran and replicate a shredder from far away
I like the idea that Blizzard is trying to support, but was it really needed? Terran doesn't need more chokepoint holder units, the siege tank is already great at doing that. I really don't think the shredder will make it to release, it doesn't seem very feasible in high level play.
I love how everyone results to insta-whining... Im sure the DPS will be decreased before HotS... relax people, sheesh....
This is almost exactly what a terran needs in TvZ, especially when a douchy zerg waits and waits for the terran to move just enought that he can run in and kill all building add-ons.
On October 31 2011 23:17 aksfjh wrote: It's not even GSL, it's ONLY Code S. Code A even has a rather small showing for T.
That being said, there are things about the shredder than we don't know, like if the damage aura stacks. Do we even know if the range is the same from Blizzcon to this mod?
That the damage does not stack has been confirmed by blizzard. It's right there in their presentation. As for the range I cannot say.
Range is 3 btw.
That make the only unit able to kill them without being hit are Hydra.
Unless you have new information since blizzcon, it has to be greater than 3. Roaches (range 4) were attacking them in a video well within the range. Right now, it has to be 5 or 6. If it's any less than that, it will be absolutely useless as any sort of choke holder since every army has easy access to range 6 units.
On November 01 2011 00:33 CaptainCrush wrote: I love how everyone results to insta-whining... Im sure the DPS will be decreased before HotS... relax people, sheesh....
This is almost exactly what a terran needs in TvZ, especially when a douchy zerg waits and waits for the terran to move just enought that he can run in and kill all building add-ons.
Because a bunker and some marines is too much to ask?
On November 01 2011 00:23 TALegion wrote: I hope that the replicant is a flying unit and just hovering. That way, you can fly into the mineral line of a terran and replicate a shredder from far away
It already has unlimited range with the replicate ability. You only need to scout for the unit you want to replicate and then do it safely in your warm and fuzzy base.
On November 01 2011 00:23 TALegion wrote: I hope that the replicant is a flying unit and just hovering. That way, you can fly into the mineral line of a terran and replicate a shredder from far away
It already has unlimited range with the replicate ability. You only need to scout for the unit you want to replicate and then do it safely in your warm and fuzzy base.
Yeah, but the flying part is for the easy, "drop," instead of having to utilize a warp prism. Unfortunately, this unit sounds almost entirely created for TvZ, and its usage in TvP sounds very limited (to say the least...).
I also dont know if shredders will be such a problem... the easiest way to kill the shredder seems to just explode it with banelings, who dies anyway when they explode (or explode when they die, however you like it), and splashes the shredder... it might be normal to have a couple of buried banelings behind your mineral line, to automaticly take care of the shredders... i mean, if terran drops marines behind your minerals, they will also kill a lot of workers if you dont have banes close... thats just how it is...
On November 01 2011 00:33 CaptainCrush wrote: I love how everyone results to insta-whining... Im sure the DPS will be decreased before HotS... relax people, sheesh....
This is almost exactly what a terran needs in TvZ, especially when a douchy zerg waits and waits for the terran to move just enought that he can run in and kill all building add-ons.
yeah wall ins, bunker and pfs aswell as a single tank left behind isnt enough. other races dont have to deal with counterattacks aswell? its normal strategy and imo the last thing terran needed was this shredder.
On October 31 2011 23:17 aksfjh wrote: It's not even GSL, it's ONLY Code S. Code A even has a rather small showing for T.
That being said, there are things about the shredder than we don't know, like if the damage aura stacks. Do we even know if the range is the same from Blizzcon to this mod?
That the damage does not stack has been confirmed by blizzard. It's right there in their presentation. As for the range I cannot say.
Range is 3 btw.
That make the only unit able to kill them without being hit are Hydra.
Don't forget the roflroaches, mate . But I think the radius of the Shredder is more than 3. :S
How can you nerf something that isn't actually officially part of the game, people are fucking crazy....
I think the shredder will end up somewhere in the neighborhood of 14-16 DPS, and I would be surprised if you could drop them.
The BC upgrade is necessary, to be able to to stop vikings from kiting is very important for TvT late-game.
I still think the swarm host makes the least sense of all the new units. It's almost like you really really wanted to put the lurker back in, but just couldnt quite bring yourself to do it, (I assume because of balance?) so you make this weird watered-down unit that isn't going to be powerful unless it's a very specific situation.
Marine drops do more than 20 dps and have lots of retention with the medivac.
The shredder needs to be burrowed for 5 seconds and if you don't pull your drones out in time the same outcome happens if you don't pull drones away from a marine drop.
The shredder once burrowed is committed to sitting there and doing damage while a marine drop can just simply lift away.
Also 1 spine can kill 1 shredder b4 it even gets a shot off.
Just some food for thought.
Also the Swarm host is kind of op.. no actually it is op.
With the only range limit being the timer of the locusts themselves they can actually have something like 30 range. Kind of redic.
On November 01 2011 02:01 Tippecanoe wrote: Also the Swarm host is kind of op.. no actually it is op.
With the only range limit being the timer of the locusts themselves they can actually have something like 30 range. Kind of redic.
but the dps declines with range at 10 range enemy units get 2/3 of the maximum damage at 20 range enemy units get 1/3 of the maximum damage excellent for a space control unit
On October 31 2011 22:55 Gigaudas wrote: Commenting on whether it is OP or not seems pointless - the stats can always be changed.
What dislike is that I feel like Terran is already very well defended against harassing Zerglings, encouraging the Zerg to keep all of his army in one place at a time.
Harass being automatically handled is BAD, challenging the gamers is GOOD.
Taking a third on maps like Metallopolis is ALMOST impossible as terran because a competent zerg will always attack your expo and run away as soon as he sees your units. The same can be said for protoss, but warp-in kinda help against that.
And please stop saying that siege tanks and PF helps defending. Siege tanks do too little damage so defending an expansion with JUST tanks is not suitable. A PF needs time to morph and a zerg can take an advantage from that.
If that makes Terran UP, then buff another aspect of Terran. My point wasn't to claim "OP". Debating whether something is overpowered before its stats are actually final is kind of dumb. My point was that automatically negating harass is bad for the skill cap and entertainment value of the game. Harass should be negated by the player having to actively negate it - not a unit that does it automatically.
On November 01 2011 02:01 Tippecanoe wrote: Also the Swarm host is kind of op.. no actually it is op.
With the only range limit being the timer of the locusts themselves they can actually have something like 30 range. Kind of redic.
but the dps declines with range at 10 range enemy units get 2/3 of the maximum damage at 20 range enemy units get 1/3 of the maximum damage excellent for a space control unit
Then you realize the only reason why the unit is good is because the tanks are doing the damage.
Doesnt matter how much damage the actual locust does all that matters is that the locusts live just long enough so that even 1 tank shot does some friendly fire.
Try to remember guys - It's the idea of the unit that is important for discussion. Stats / cost / energy can all be adjusted in an attempt to bring it closer to actual balance. The idea is the critical component of the new units that needs to be discussed, this will not change barring a major unit-redesign.
My take on the shredder: Unit that can control space or be used to defend hard-to-reach expansions extremely well. A bit redundant considering the potency of PF's and Turrets. Can be very powerful in protecting siege tank lines from massive flanks. Cool idea, stats are something that need to be tweaked. Very abusable in its current state, similar to the assimilator cannon rush.
On November 01 2011 02:29 QTIP. wrote: Try to remember guys - It's the idea of the unit that is important for discussion. Stats / cost / energy can all be adjusted in an attempt to bring it closer to actual balance. The idea is the critical component of the new units that needs to be discussed, this will not change barring a major unit-redesign.
My take on the shredder: Unit that can control space or be used to defend hard-to-reach expansions extremely well. A bit redundant considering the potency of PF's and Turrets. Can be very powerful in protecting siege tank lines from massive flanks. Cool idea, stats are something that need to be tweaked. Very abusable in its current state, similar to the assimilator cannon rush.
I really don't see the shredder being used to deny far expansions. The effective control it would have could be emulated with simply a hellion, marine, or even a engineering bay... Without backup near to take advantage of the resources spent to take it down, there is no threat of doing so. It's almost the equivalent of forcing your opponent to attack rocks and abusing the positioning to gain an advantage. Being forced to approach an area a specific way is what the shredder does, along with a direct counter to insignificant but deadly/annoying counter attacks. It basically does all the things tanks are supposed to do but can't because of their drawbacks and nerfs.
On November 01 2011 02:29 QTIP. wrote: Try to remember guys - It's the idea of the unit that is important for discussion. Stats / cost / energy can all be adjusted in an attempt to bring it closer to actual balance. The idea is the critical component of the new units that needs to be discussed, this will not change barring a major unit-redesign.
My take on the shredder: Unit that can control space or be used to defend hard-to-reach expansions extremely well. A bit redundant considering the potency of PF's and Turrets. Can be very powerful in protecting siege tank lines from massive flanks. Cool idea, stats are something that need to be tweaked. Very abusable in its current state, similar to the assimilator cannon rush.
I really don't see the shredder being used to deny far expansions. The effective control it would have could be emulated with simply a hellion, marine, or even a engineering bay... Without backup near to take advantage of the resources spent to take it down, there is no threat of doing so. It's almost the equivalent of forcing your opponent to attack rocks and abusing the positioning to gain an advantage. Being forced to approach an area a specific way is what the shredder does, along with a direct counter to insignificant but deadly/annoying counter attacks. It basically does all the things tanks are supposed to do but can't because of their drawbacks and nerfs.
I don't mean deny expansions, I mean protecting a ninja expansion you may have, or late game scenarios on certain maps such as "Dual Sight" where taking a third for T/P and defending it effectively are extremely difficult. I do agree that the Shredder might be slightly redundant when it comes to other features of the Terran Race, but I still think it will increase the gamut of strategies we will see.
Haha, all I could think with the battlecruiser was "YOU HAVE BOOSTER POWER!" and some overdone electric guitar music in the background.
I tried shredders, and they don't really seem as good as everyone says. They had struggles surviving versus a single roach and a single hydra, and didn't murder everything quite as fast as everyone seems to think.
In addition, you can't have them too close to each other, as they will disable. I'm not saying that shredders should be able to just go lurker up and burrow in a pack, killing EVERYTHING, and i'm quite happy that they are more strategical and not as brute force and easy to use ^^,
On November 01 2011 02:01 Tippecanoe wrote: Also the Swarm host is kind of op.. no actually it is op.
With the only range limit being the timer of the locusts themselves they can actually have something like 30 range. Kind of redic.
but the dps declines with range at 10 range enemy units get 2/3 of the maximum damage at 20 range enemy units get 1/3 of the maximum damage excellent for a space control unit
Then you realize the only reason why the unit is good is because the tanks are doing the damage.
Doesnt matter how much damage the actual locust does all that matters is that the locusts live just long enough so that even 1 tank shot does some friendly fire.
That is where the stats come in.
If instead of slow waves, the swarm host sent a constant stream of units (with low dps attacks, but enough hp for the ones behind them to make it.. depending on # swarmhosts v. target strength) Then it would feel more swarmy, and the dps enemy units would be taking would slowly go up (as more and more of the 'locusts' surround them).
The super range is what balances out the low overall dps.
On November 01 2011 04:36 Ketara wrote: I really don't think that these videos / this map is an accurate representation of what the units will be like.
For starters, I will be surprised if the Shredder can burrow into the ground on creep.
This is what it is like right now...as of blizcon...we all know changes will be made
I just killed 20 scvs with one shredder while my opponent was microing his reaper in my main (killing 2 of mine), I don't see how it can stay like that, without an alert that is...
doesn't look bad to me, the problem was that the zerg had nothing to defend except queens. regarding the problem that you could miss it (or at least not notice it for several important seconds), blizzard is probably thinking of giving it a very distinctive sound during the buildup process.
This did not seem as bad as everyone was making it out to be.. Plenty of time to run away plus Numbers don't mean a whole lot until beta anyways. I like the concept. One thing I am interested in though is can Vipers grip these when they are deployed? and if so do they deactivate when you grip them? Lings die too fast to defend with but queens seem to do a pretty good job so I'm not too worried.
On November 01 2011 06:12 JustPassingBy wrote: doesn't look bad to me, the problem was that the zerg had nothing to defend except queens. regarding the problem that you could miss it (or at least not notice it for several important seconds), blizzard is probably thinking of giving it a very distinctive sound during the buildup process.
That's doubtful. Baneling drops are just as devastating (if not more) and those are more or less instant as well.
Yeah I think queens are ok to defend against them, the problem is if you don't see the drop, you lose everything, there's not even a sound when your workers start taking damage.
Also I thought they costed 150/150, but in the custom map they're 125/50...
Because if something sucks, it needs to be discussed, in order to find a suitable solution. It is annoying that people belittle any kind of talk about things subject to change, when such talk is exactly what would bring about that change.
On November 01 2011 06:30 NormandyBoy wrote: Yeah I think queens are ok to defend against them, the problem is if you don't see the drop, you lose everything, there's not even a sound when your workers start taking damage.
Also I thought they costed 150/150, but in the custom map they're 125/50...
Do you not hear the warning message because of a flaw in the custom map or is that how its supposed to be?
Because it would really suck if you sent a group of lings around a side path and they evaporated to a lone shredder while you were injecting or spreading creep.
On November 01 2011 06:30 NormandyBoy wrote: Yeah I think queens are ok to defend against them, the problem is if you don't see the drop, you lose everything, there's not even a sound when your workers start taking damage.
Also I thought they costed 150/150, but in the custom map they're 125/50...
Do you not hear the warning message because of a flaw in the custom map or is that how its supposed to be?
Because it would really suck if you sent a group of lings around a side path and they evaporated to a lone shredder while you were injecting or spreading creep.
Just like it was suck if you went to move out and you lost 30 marines to 2 banelings because you were looking at home placing buildings and didn't hear the warning message...
If you are sending units out and not paying attention and they die its your own fault, they shouldn't put a warning message for it besides units are under attack.
Those videos were extremely underwhelming. You have a LOT of time to be looking at your mini-map and it's the easiest defense in the world. Whats silly is how hard it is to then remove them so you can continue mining. LOL
"We need an alert for spider mines." "Spider mines need to do less damage." "Can't see them keeping spider mines how they are."
Beta isn't even out no one knows how OP this will be or how underpowered it will be. All we know is the current design of the unit, you can't make random balance statements without a huge sample of games.
On November 01 2011 07:35 avilo wrote: I can't imagine 99% of this thread in brood war.
"We need an alert for spider mines." "Spider mines need to do less damage." "Can't see them keeping spider mines how they are."
Beta isn't even out no one knows how OP this will be or how underpowered it will be. All we know is the current design of the unit, you can't make random balance statements without a huge sample of games.
Then discuss the idea or role of the unit. These are elements of the unit that are highly unlikely to be drastically changed assuming it makes it through Beta. Blizzard has expressed a discomfort in changing the fundamental role of a new unit to the point that it is too complex or "situation-dependent." They would rather have it removed from the game than nerfed into oblivion. There is still plenty that can discussed about the shredder.
On November 01 2011 07:43 mango_destroyer wrote: it should also shred the terrans own units if they step in :D
It turns off if friendlies get within its range...
That being said, though this is not an accurate representation of the Shredder, the health seems far too high-it should be comparable to a Nydus worm, not a roach.
On November 01 2011 03:36 marttorn wrote: Haha, all I could think with the battlecruiser was "YOU HAVE BOOSTER POWER!" and some overdone electric guitar music in the background.
I tried shredders, and they don't really seem as good as everyone says. They had struggles surviving versus a single roach and a single hydra, and didn't murder everything quite as fast as everyone seems to think.
In addition, you can't have them too close to each other, as they will disable. I'm not saying that shredders should be able to just go lurker up and burrow in a pack, killing EVERYTHING, and i'm quite happy that they are more strategical and not as brute force and easy to use ^^,
in "real" HOTS they don't disable due to allied shredders, they don't either take damage from such shredders
I'd like to see it require no enemy units at all in range before it is allowed to activate. So if it's planted behind a mineral line it won't turn on but if you scared all the drones/queens away with hellions and then planted it when they evacuated then it could turn on. Makes it so it's not a set it and forget it unit for those situations
Just think if the people on this forum balanced the game...we'd be playing My Little Pony in rainbow land 2. Wait for the game to come out instead of trying to balance it now jeez.
On November 01 2011 07:47 KentHenry wrote: The shredder should be a stationary building, built for defense by an scv. This negates all OP drops
No way man, this thing needs to take up supply. PF's + turrets is insanely difficult to kill already, can you imagine if they had 2 shredders in front of it? At least make them sacrifice part of their army supply if they want to leave shredders behind all over the map.
2 Roaches kill 2 Shredders with 0 losses. Just saying. Of course, if you want to be an idiot and attack fully deployed Shredders behind mineral lines with Drones and Zerglings, be my guest. Expect the same results vs a 8 Marine drop.
I have no idea why the cost of the Shredder is so low. 150/50 is stupid low. I thought it was priced at 150/150 at Blizzcon.
Keep in mind that the custom mod is not a perfect recreation of HotS Blizzcon. The lack of cooldown on the BC move speed boost, and the Thor's anti-air attack remaining active are proof of that.
On November 01 2011 08:37 benthekid wrote: Just think if the people on this forum balanced the game...we'd be playing My Little Pony in rainbow land 2. Wait for the game to come out instead of trying to balance it now jeez.
Ya let's let it come out and be fucked up so tournaments are a joke before balancing it.
Really? The whole point of revealing these units is so feedback can be provided.
I don't understand all the QQ here. First and foremost, this game isn't out yet and will be tweaked 20 thousand times over before it does. Secondly, what is the difference between this and 4 banelings dropping from an overlord? Or fungals/storms on mineral lines? None except terrans have it so now 2/3rds are getting all uppity. If you run a pack of lings into 2 shredders, then they deserve to die and you deserve to lose. It's no different then me running a pack of marines directly into a banelings cluster (or land mine) Or not microing out of a storm. Shredders are way easier to kill than people are making it out to be, as said a single roach kills it no problem. Please stop the QQ.
On November 01 2011 09:51 Dfgj wrote: Really? The whole point of revealing these units is so feedback can be provided.
What people are "providing" here is not feedback, it's QQ on the basis of a custom map that is supposed to resemble HotS unit. It's absolutely worthless.
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Agreed. There's already too many harass options for Terran. Drop play, banshees, raven at the end of the game, helions and even reapers. Not sure what is the justification of giving them another very good harass and/or defense option. That race is stacked with good units and options.
Zerg have few harass option, protoss had almost none but now with the new unit, they have something. Either give shredder to zerg or protoss, or don't even bother bringing it into the game.
this mod is awesome. The thor is imba as fuck tho, it's barrage attack instantly kills everything. I was playing PvT and kept running into the thor, I only won because I could use feedback. I'm seriously worried about TvT and ZvT with this unit.
I did some ZvT and the best style seems to be ling/viper/mutas with a few banes. Group the vipers/mutas together and harass, if they pull marines you can use blinding cloud and just own. It's pretty rediculous, viper/muta is gonna be damn potent.
On November 01 2011 13:20 emc wrote: this mod is awesome. The thor is imba as fuck tho, it's barrage attack instantly kills everything. I was playing PvT and kept running into the thor, I only won because I could use feedback. I'm seriously worried about TvT and ZvT with this unit.
I did some ZvT and the best style seems to be ling/viper/mutas with a few banes. Group the vipers/mutas together and harass, if they pull marines you can use blinding cloud and just own. It's pretty rediculous, viper/muta is gonna be damn potent.
Hero units are useless imo and the new thor is just as useless as the mothership was....if not more
EPT
![[image loading]](http://ru.memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/10/10773/11032178.jpg)
. But I think the radius of the Shredder is more than 3. :S![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lKVoz.png)
