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On October 31 2011 11:24 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 11:06 Zaurus wrote:On October 31 2011 10:32 Eps wrote:
This just shows the extremes of what can happen for an inadequately prepared opponent. 1 Spine shuts this down so hard. There's no way it'll have 7 range.
With the time it takes to set up, workers can easily run away. It looks like 2 Queens even without tranfuse will be able to take it down easily. Vid shows about 3-sec set up time.
Not to mention with the Viper's pull ability, I can see it dragging away somewhere safe unless it can't be targeted.
If I recall correctly, it can't even be deployed near Terran's own units or else they disengage as well.
I much rather have Spider Mines. Even if someone has 0 reaction time, we don't have units all over the place at all the time. I hate it when people get all smart and give straight in your face type of answer that is common sense. You think we are all stupid? Of course we know we have to defend our mineral lines and watch for drops. When a medivac is flying in, how much resources worth of units should I pull to defend without risking my front? And at one time you can only react to one drop at a time no matter how fast you are. Dropping 2 shredder at 2 different mineral lines and attacking the front, is easy to execute and efficient, but defending is so hard. If you pull too much unit you are screwed. What if you decide to pull just 2 stalkers and a group of marauder and marine is in the drop? If you want to get snarky, try to actually read the post first. Read - 1 Spine Crawler/Cannon. It's no different than a Medivac with 8 Marines being dropped during a battle. Except you can run from this and it won't be able to do anything. The unit's Immobile. So you're saying that Terran is doing multi-drop play while attacking the front, and the opponent does not know how to respond to 1 Medivac? So T is playing like a boss and the opposition doesn't have map awareness + inadequate base defence AND does not know how to engage a drop? Wow, I wish all my opponents was like this. Not to mention the same counterarguments invalidates Everything you just said. Noone knows what could be in Warpprism drops or Overlords, just as no one can know what's inside of a Medivac. The defeatist mentality is just beautiful.
I just want to say defending a drop is not just about reaction time and putting a
Cannon/spine crawler with limited range.150 minerals is alot unless you actually need it.
I don't want to sound like I am trying to win an argument, all drops are hard to stop even as Terran. 8 marines is more effective than a shredder. However if you can somehow distract your opponent and let it get deployed, which is not hard, it is going to be OP. not all the time you have the
Capability to react to it given 0 reaction time. You should not slap a irresponsible statement saying people are slow to react therefore they deserve to be punished. There are reasons why even if you see the drop you can't defend.
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The shredder is just too unterranish for me. Since when do terrans care about friendly fire safety? Tanks, nukes, spidermines, irradiate, hunter seeker... powerful splash/aoe that will wreck your own shit if you aren't careful is the terran way. I'd rather see something like a slow, attackless, mine layer or something like that if they want to take food out of the deathball.
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United States23455 Posts
I can already see zergs getting mad because terrans drop their shredders, then they pull their drones away into an oncoming hellion rush.
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I find it funny that the shredder is actually what Protoss desperately needs - a unit that functions outside of the deathball and can be used to hold a position.
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The shredder will put fear into the hearts of the other races, that's for sure. Imagine scouting an unsaturated enemy base and just place one shredder on the path the transferring workers will follow? Total destruction and very hard to scout too. I kind of like it though, I think people should be encouraged to not mindlessly send workers over the map, something they can still get away with even if it already causes a variety of problems.
Or dropping a shredder and two hellions somewhere: block off the choke with the shredder and roast an undefended protoss base.
I think this unit would be really nice for protoss as others have said. It's not like terran needs new units anyway. If you think about it, the only actual unit the protoss gets is the replicant (the others are replacements), a sort of weird new unit from the robotics facility. The shredder is also a weird robotic unit that already looks protoss-like with the energy field it emits. They could easily give protoss the shredder, scrap the protoss replicant and just give it to the zerg instead. (use the art for the changeling, just make it a bigger blob) Problem solved!
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On October 31 2011 11:53 Zaurus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 11:24 Eps wrote:On October 31 2011 11:06 Zaurus wrote:On October 31 2011 10:32 Eps wrote:
This just shows the extremes of what can happen for an inadequately prepared opponent. 1 Spine shuts this down so hard. There's no way it'll have 7 range.
With the time it takes to set up, workers can easily run away. It looks like 2 Queens even without tranfuse will be able to take it down easily. Vid shows about 3-sec set up time.
Not to mention with the Viper's pull ability, I can see it dragging away somewhere safe unless it can't be targeted.
If I recall correctly, it can't even be deployed near Terran's own units or else they disengage as well.
I much rather have Spider Mines. Even if someone has 0 reaction time, we don't have units all over the place at all the time. I hate it when people get all smart and give straight in your face type of answer that is common sense. You think we are all stupid? Of course we know we have to defend our mineral lines and watch for drops. When a medivac is flying in, how much resources worth of units should I pull to defend without risking my front? And at one time you can only react to one drop at a time no matter how fast you are. Dropping 2 shredder at 2 different mineral lines and attacking the front, is easy to execute and efficient, but defending is so hard. If you pull too much unit you are screwed. What if you decide to pull just 2 stalkers and a group of marauder and marine is in the drop? If you want to get snarky, try to actually read the post first. Read - 1 Spine Crawler/Cannon. It's no different than a Medivac with 8 Marines being dropped during a battle. Except you can run from this and it won't be able to do anything. The unit's Immobile. So you're saying that Terran is doing multi-drop play while attacking the front, and the opponent does not know how to respond to 1 Medivac? So T is playing like a boss and the opposition doesn't have map awareness + inadequate base defence AND does not know how to engage a drop? Wow, I wish all my opponents was like this. Not to mention the same counterarguments invalidates Everything you just said. Noone knows what could be in Warpprism drops or Overlords, just as no one can know what's inside of a Medivac. The defeatist mentality is just beautiful. I just want to say defending a drop is not just about reaction time and putting a Cannon/spine crawler with limited range.150 minerals is alot unless you actually need it. I don't want to sound like I am trying to win an argument, all drops are hard to stop even as Terran. 8 marines is more effective than a shredder. However if you can somehow distract your opponent and let it get deployed, which is not hard, it is going to be OP. not all the time you have the Capability to react to it given 0 reaction time. You should not slap a irresponsible statement saying people are slow to react therefore they deserve to be punished. There are reasons why even if you see the drop you can't defend.
You have to realize that spines and cannons aren't supposed to stop a drop cold just like how missile turrets don't stop mass mutas.
They are there only to buy time for your fighting units.
Btw oracle is op as hell what is T supposed to do
Also the swarm host has an effective range of about 30.
On metal at the gold the center ramp on the top gold burrowed rallied to the opposite position on my gold and they still dont time out still doing work damage.
Pretty good unit.
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On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote:
Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling).
Agree... Terran get's the added bonus of possibly dropping Shredders and transforming Hellions behind mineral lines to destroy economies (along with marine drops, banshees etc.) while Protoss get's mini-breakable force fields to stop 500 minerals (at the most) from being mined... there's no harrass unit unless your willing to dish out tons of gas on Phoenix, which also requires more micro to do damage, or a HT drop... 150-600 gas worth :S ouch!
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On October 31 2011 12:10 Tippecanoe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 11:53 Zaurus wrote:On October 31 2011 11:24 Eps wrote:On October 31 2011 11:06 Zaurus wrote:On October 31 2011 10:32 Eps wrote:
This just shows the extremes of what can happen for an inadequately prepared opponent. 1 Spine shuts this down so hard. There's no way it'll have 7 range.
With the time it takes to set up, workers can easily run away. It looks like 2 Queens even without tranfuse will be able to take it down easily. Vid shows about 3-sec set up time.
Not to mention with the Viper's pull ability, I can see it dragging away somewhere safe unless it can't be targeted.
If I recall correctly, it can't even be deployed near Terran's own units or else they disengage as well.
I much rather have Spider Mines. Even if someone has 0 reaction time, we don't have units all over the place at all the time. I hate it when people get all smart and give straight in your face type of answer that is common sense. You think we are all stupid? Of course we know we have to defend our mineral lines and watch for drops. When a medivac is flying in, how much resources worth of units should I pull to defend without risking my front? And at one time you can only react to one drop at a time no matter how fast you are. Dropping 2 shredder at 2 different mineral lines and attacking the front, is easy to execute and efficient, but defending is so hard. If you pull too much unit you are screwed. What if you decide to pull just 2 stalkers and a group of marauder and marine is in the drop? If you want to get snarky, try to actually read the post first. Read - 1 Spine Crawler/Cannon. It's no different than a Medivac with 8 Marines being dropped during a battle. Except you can run from this and it won't be able to do anything. The unit's Immobile. So you're saying that Terran is doing multi-drop play while attacking the front, and the opponent does not know how to respond to 1 Medivac? So T is playing like a boss and the opposition doesn't have map awareness + inadequate base defence AND does not know how to engage a drop? Wow, I wish all my opponents was like this. Not to mention the same counterarguments invalidates Everything you just said. Noone knows what could be in Warpprism drops or Overlords, just as no one can know what's inside of a Medivac. The defeatist mentality is just beautiful. I just want to say defending a drop is not just about reaction time and putting a Cannon/spine crawler with limited range.150 minerals is alot unless you actually need it. I don't want to sound like I am trying to win an argument, all drops are hard to stop even as Terran. 8 marines is more effective than a shredder. However if you can somehow distract your opponent and let it get deployed, which is not hard, it is going to be OP. not all the time you have the Capability to react to it given 0 reaction time. You should not slap a irresponsible statement saying people are slow to react therefore they deserve to be punished. There are reasons why even if you see the drop you can't defend. You have to realize that spines and cannons aren't supposed to stop a drop cold just like how missile turrets don't stop mass mutas. They are there only to buy time for your fighting units. Btw oracle is op as hell what is T supposed to do
Just like shredder. I feel oracle is badly design. Maybe is just beta.
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That swarm host gameplay accurate? Seemed like the five from the HotS video produced more than that.
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Canada11607 Posts
On October 31 2011 12:09 junemermaid wrote:
I find it funny that the shredder is actually what Protoss desperately needs - a unit that functions outside of the deathball and can be used to hold a position.
Well yes and no. I'm not sure that it's necessary for everyone to have units that hold position. I can't think of BW equivalent unit for Protoss. Or at least not in the same way. Protoss power was holding their bases with a few spread units that were really powerful (nexus cannoned with a couple high templar) but had tremendous mobility either with harass (reaver, high templar drops) or carriers and arbiters. This created space and time because the opponent was defending the harass. Protoss had tremendous mobility options that allowed them to be in more places at once that countered terrans powerful hold position (the slow push of mines, vultures, tanks, turrets and depots) or Zerg's powerful lurker, sunken combo. (But muta's is the other way around... gah it's too complicated too explain.)
The point is it's not necessarily the case that all sides can block space equally unless we want BW style Terran vs Terran chessmatches. But it's more the interplay between mobility/harass and holding space. And who is the aggressor and defender might change depending on the time of the game.
However, I am greedy and I would like the Shredder for myself.
Edit
Hm, just thinking. A lone collosus theoretically has the fire power to hold off expansion harassment when behind cannons similar to BW high templar and reaver... except that it can be hit by air and therefore easily sniped. If it was invulnerable to air, you could probably move it away from the deathball, but then there is the problem of killing it without vikings or zerg air. Lol, collosi are such wonky units.
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looks like marine drops would do the same job tbh.
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On October 31 2011 11:53 Zaurus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 11:24 Eps wrote:On October 31 2011 11:06 Zaurus wrote:On October 31 2011 10:32 Eps wrote:
This just shows the extremes of what can happen for an inadequately prepared opponent. 1 Spine shuts this down so hard. There's no way it'll have 7 range.
With the time it takes to set up, workers can easily run away. It looks like 2 Queens even without tranfuse will be able to take it down easily. Vid shows about 3-sec set up time.
Not to mention with the Viper's pull ability, I can see it dragging away somewhere safe unless it can't be targeted.
If I recall correctly, it can't even be deployed near Terran's own units or else they disengage as well.
I much rather have Spider Mines. Even if someone has 0 reaction time, we don't have units all over the place at all the time. I hate it when people get all smart and give straight in your face type of answer that is common sense. You think we are all stupid? Of course we know we have to defend our mineral lines and watch for drops. When a medivac is flying in, how much resources worth of units should I pull to defend without risking my front? And at one time you can only react to one drop at a time no matter how fast you are. Dropping 2 shredder at 2 different mineral lines and attacking the front, is easy to execute and efficient, but defending is so hard. If you pull too much unit you are screwed. What if you decide to pull just 2 stalkers and a group of marauder and marine is in the drop? If you want to get snarky, try to actually read the post first. Read - 1 Spine Crawler/Cannon. It's no different than a Medivac with 8 Marines being dropped during a battle. Except you can run from this and it won't be able to do anything. The unit's Immobile. So you're saying that Terran is doing multi-drop play while attacking the front, and the opponent does not know how to respond to 1 Medivac? So T is playing like a boss and the opposition doesn't have map awareness + inadequate base defence AND does not know how to engage a drop? Wow, I wish all my opponents was like this. Not to mention the same counterarguments invalidates Everything you just said. Noone knows what could be in Warpprism drops or Overlords, just as no one can know what's inside of a Medivac. The defeatist mentality is just beautiful. I just want to say defending a drop is not just about reaction time and putting a Cannon/spine crawler with limited range.150 minerals is alot unless you actually need it. I don't want to sound like I am trying to win an argument, all drops are hard to stop even as Terran. 8 marines is more effective than a shredder. However if you can somehow distract your opponent and let it get deployed, which is not hard, it is going to be OP. not all the time you have the Capability to react to it given 0 reaction time. You should not slap a irresponsible statement saying people are slow to react therefore they deserve to be punished. There are reasons why even if you see the drop you can't defend.
Considering that the range of the Shredder looks to be about 5-6 and there is definitely no way they'll make it a range-7 AOE Damage Unit, how are 7-Range Static-Defences any more limited than the Shredder?
If people are slow to react, or do not have proper defence. It is Exactly why they deserved to be punished. Hell it's the whole point of a drop, to distract or to damage.
How is your example any different than when a Terran is moving across the map and Mutas come in to harass the mineral line? Or Overlord Drops/Warpprism drops. Or Medivac Drops of any other unit?
Except the unit in question needs to be Immobile and requires 4 ticks to kill off workers. That counter-argument is simply invalid considering it can be applied to Every race and essentially to almost every offensive unit in the game.
I really do not feel like I have to rebuke the point about how 150 minerals is Costly. Considering this unit costs 150/150Gas and requires Factory-Starport and a Dropship to use it as an offensive drop-harassment. By that time, I doubt Z can't afford to spend 150 Minerals as a preemptive Shredder Drop Defence deterrent.
Some people in this thread are talking as if this unit is going to be cheap harassment drop tactic.
Considering the set up time, I doubt retraction of the Shredder will be 0-seconds so it better kill something or it'd be a huge wasted investment.
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On October 31 2011 12:09 junemermaid wrote:
I find it funny that the shredder is actually what Protoss desperately needs - a unit that functions outside of the deathball and can be used to hold a position.
It's entirely possible for the shredder to be switched to protoss, same way phase cannons are now spine crawlers. Hopefully blizzard does it ;D
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They could add the following characteristic to the shredder that could make it weaker when micro'd against: instead of pulsing its field with a very high frequency, lower it, so that a careful player can enter the field just after a recent pulse. This can mean the different between a dead shredder and some dead marines, if you balance it right perhaps.
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On October 31 2011 09:31 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
Before people start crying remember this is not even beta, Blizz is smart and will make neccessary changes even if it includes removing from game
Like how they removed close positions and bad maps before retail? Yeah, probably...
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shredder should explode once and then have a large cool down. Sorta like a spider mine that recharges.
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On October 31 2011 11:07 Plexa wrote:
Late game shredders in drops are OP as fuck lol
Shredders in drops suck hardcore. The unit itself is no where near as effective as spider mines were. In a drop, the only people that will ever lose workers to this are people below platinum or that fall out of their chair. It takes so long to deploy i can't ever see any pros losing workers to this ever.
And aside from that, it actually feels very weak in it's current form (surprisingly). I tested the shredder in the custom map, others should as well, the damage only feels quick versus low HP units like zerglings that would run through it, but otherwise basically every unit in the game out dps's these things so hard that you'll only ever lose 1-2 units from these if you play SC2 ball-style or just play normal...
I have a feeling once the game releases, the forums/community are going to whine about things that are not actually OP, and then the unit will end up utterly pointless, much like happened with CnC expansions.
Because as is, from the stats and function of this unit, it's actually not that powerful at all. Test it in the custom map.
And for people comparing it to spider mines, it's actually nothing like spider mines in terms of how it functions. It's visible, and easy to snipe and does not have that real "oomph" feeling you get when you lay down and see a spider mine go off. Mainly because a spider mine does the 125 damage at once, whereas this thing you can just avoid the damage by stepping out of it.
It should still be a decent unit i guess.
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Some more potential uses if this unit were given to protoss. Protoss struggles pretty hard on maps like Dual Sight and Metalopolis because of wide open spaces weaking forcefielding and wide open thirds as well, making thirds hard to take. I could easily see this unit being used to protect third expansions from roach/ling run ins.
I saw the technologically advanced energy fieldss, i saw units die as if the Shredder was 6 stimmed marines, I saw it clear out a mineral line. and now i don't care what it takes i have to have it.
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EPT
