EPTBW Teams playing Starcraft 2 - Page 77
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ChefTony
United States68 Posts
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setzer
United States3284 Posts
On October 29 2011 10:31 Medrea wrote: I disagree with the mod note that SC2 is a "less difficult game". Its pretty obvious that anything that makes it easier for you is also easier for your opponent. Come on. Game could be fucking 4-square (game of kings), if I am playing against a 7 foot tall pro 4-square player it is going to be real rough, even though the entire game can be described in two sentences. I guess the game could also be fucking Tic-Tac-Toe, if I am playing against a genius with 180IQ it is also going to be real rough, even though the entire came can be described in one sentence. You are looking at things way too narrowly. | ||
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Bobster
Germany3075 Posts
On October 29 2011 10:48 BLinD-RawR wrote: wait,you lost your passion for BW? WTF?WTF?WTF? Tasteless must have infected him. | ||
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raviy
Australia207 Posts
On October 29 2011 10:36 Defury wrote: If anyone thinks SC2 has a low skill cap load up that AI bot that can micro and then try and kill anything of his. Sc2 has a ceiling no human can reach and that is high enough. When a human being can do this you can call the skill ceiling too low. That actually looks a lot easier than what can be accomplished in BW. | ||
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MrKn4rz
Germany2153 Posts
On October 29 2011 10:51 ChefTony wrote: It's actually kind of sad for SC2 when these BW players actually make the move and have some time to practice I'm willing to bet that a lot of our favorite players now will be gone. The "B team players wont even exist and the current top players will be at the bottom. I think the Koreans saw Huk beating Koreans and decided that that was enough lol. It may be bad for the current Top players but good for sc2 imo. | ||
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Defury
Germany206 Posts
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mustaju
Estonia4505 Posts
We both know how I meant that. I'm not interested in seeing anything inbetween BW if there's no BW anymore. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51722 Posts
On October 29 2011 10:54 mustaju wrote: We both know how I meant that. I'm not interested in seeing anything inbetween BW if there's no BW anymore. no,there is BW in PL 11-12 go watch it when the season starts. | ||
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lFrost
United States295 Posts
On October 29 2011 10:43 Medrea wrote: Kobe Bryant would stuff your face full of basketball anytime you tried to shoot the ball so I think that analogy falls pretty flat. sounds like you missed the main point of the analogy | ||
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Eufouria
United Kingdom4425 Posts
On October 29 2011 10:40 Medrea wrote: Well both games have virtually not skill limit but honestly it doesn't matter anyway. As I keep saying "SC2 is an easier game" is meaningless because that makes it easier on your opponent as well.... Why the fuck do people keep making this really easy mistake?? Makes no sense. Irrelevant. Any mechanic that needs to be mastered is canceled out by the fact that the other guy has to master it as well! That's not how it works. You are assuming that everyone can just master it, the point is that BW is more mechanically difficult to the point that many less players are even able to get to the point where strategy really matters against another player. I don't buy that BW is a more difficult game, certainly it is more difficult in terms of macro, but there is still a skill ceiling that a human can't reach in SC2, its just that the skill ceiling isn't "well I just don't have enough units so now I'm going to die" like it is in BW. In regards to the article; I'm suprised how fast the transition seems to be going. I didn't expect BW teams to start consider switching till LotV was close to being out. I guess SC2 has grown to the point where many people involved in BW realise that it can't be ignored any longer. | ||
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Medrea
10003 Posts
On October 29 2011 10:51 setzer wrote: I guess the game could also be fucking Tic-Tac-Toe, if I am playing against a genius with 180IQ it is also going to be real rough, even though the entire came can be described in one sentence. You are looking at things way too narrowly. Awful example. The skill ceiling in Tic-Tac-Toe is so low a child can tie any master. That game is 100 percent ties. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On October 29 2011 10:56 Medrea wrote: Awful example. The skill ceiling in Tic-Tac-Toe is so low a child can tie any master. That game is 100 percent ties. Well... at least it's balanced.  | ||
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sc14s
United States5052 Posts
On October 29 2011 10:54 mustaju wrote: We both know how I meant that. I'm not interested in seeing anything inbetween BW if there's no BW anymore. meh, its for the better in the long run overall to get more people, plus i'm betting you wont even stop watching SC2. | ||
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raviy
Australia207 Posts
On October 29 2011 10:56 Medrea wrote: Awful example. The skill ceiling in Tic-Tac-Toe is so low a child can tie any master. That game is 100 percent ties. Can we establish that every game has a different skill ceiling? Chess > Connect 4 > Tic Tac Toe? From that, it's clear that one of either SCBW or SC2 has a higher skill ceiling. Claims that the skill ceilings are identical are therefore incorrect. Which basically means that if you disagree that BW has a higher skill ceiling, you're asserting that SC2 has a higher skill ceiling. | ||
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Medrea
10003 Posts
Yeah lol. PERFECTLY balanced. On October 29 2011 10:59 raviy wrote: Can we establish that every game has a different skill ceiling? Chess > Connect 4 > Tic Tac Toe? From that, it's clear that one of either SCBW or SC2 has a higher skill ceiling. Claims that the skill ceilings are identical are therefore incorrect. Which basically means that if you disagree that BW has a higher skill ceiling, you're asserting that SC2 has a higher skill ceiling. They are both fairly infinite. Having a higher skill ceiling than humanity can handle and having a higher skill ceiling thats WAY higher than humanity can handle is the same result. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
It is also ABUNDANTLY clear that the best player win much more consistently than worse players. Yes, occasionally even the greats lose to worse players--that's not a balance issue or a game flaw, its human nature. The best football teams still lose games to teams that are, by definition, worse than them. Same with baseball, basketball, tennis and any other sport anyone gives a shit about. And same thing, by the way, with BW--with ANY great BW player you can point to times where they lost to worse players. But that's not important, because over many games, the best players will win much more consistently and post consistent results and great winrates. MVP dominates the fuck out of the competition. To a lesser extent so does Nestea, and before he started slumping, MC did as well. 6 out of the 9 "real" GSLs have been won by two guys. If you factor in the open season and super tournament, there have been 11 tournaments, of which 3 guys have won 8 (between them, well particularly between MVP and MC, those guys also have tons of results in foreign tournaments). The other 3 were won by: Bomber, who also has an MLG victory MMA, who placed silver in another GSL and also has an MLG victory and Fruitdealer, who won when the game was brand new Then you also have a guy like MKP, who has consistently placed second, over and over and over again. That doesn't look at all like volatility to me. In fact, that looks like a game in which the talent consistently rises to the top, despite a single elimination format that introduces tremendous volatility regardless of the game (seriously, basketball isn't "volatile", but March madness is insanely unpredictable just because it is single elimination--same with the NFL playoffs). Outside of one fluke when the game first launched, the only guys to win GSLs have been the absolute best players in the world. The undisputed best terran, zerg and protoss all have multiple wins, and the only other guys to get wins have also won MLGs and made it very far in other GSLs. If the game was as random, if it was easy for inferior players to win, if the skill ceiling were so low...this would be impossible. For example, if the best player in the world was only capable of beating worse players, say, 60% of the time...one dude winning 3 GSLs, making the finals of another, plus posting stellar international results including Blizzcon and MLG, all in less than a year, would be essentially statistically impossible. That sort of consistency can only happen if the game allows for sufficient skill differentiation that truly great players can dominate. Clearly, SC2 does this. | ||
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sc14s
United States5052 Posts
On October 29 2011 10:59 raviy wrote: Can we establish that every game has a different skill ceiling? Chess > Connect 4 > Tic Tac Toe? From that, it's clear that one of either SCBW or SC2 has a higher skill ceiling. Claims that the skill ceilings are identical are therefore incorrect. Which basically means that if you disagree that BW has a higher skill ceiling, you're asserting that SC2 has a higher skill ceiling. point being neither games have players that have reached that cap so the point is moot... | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
On October 29 2011 10:40 lFrost wrote: to quote someone here who has made this example before, if i played a game of basketball against kobe bryant and the hoop size was doubled to make the game easier, obviously the game would be easier for both me and kobe. however the lowered difference in difficulty would be much larger for me, because kobe would probably be able to make the same shots if the hoop size were normal sized anyway. thus, even though kobe is a much superior basketball player, he would have a harder time differentiating himself from inferior players if the game were easier because he would not be able to fully show and utilize his true skill. this is why many bw fans dislike sc2. if flash or jd switched over to sc2, it would be a massive waste of their talents That analogy's pretty incorrect in its current form; Kobe would be able to make shots from tremendously far away with a larger hoop, so he would still be the better player, The appropriate analogy is if the hoop was made so large that you yourself could make a shot from 90% of the court; at that point, the skill ceiling is lowered to the point where ability is actually irrelevant. Even then you could pretty easily argue that he would never let you keep the ball long enough to shoot. | ||
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Medrea
10003 Posts
On October 29 2011 11:00 sc14s wrote: point being neither games have players that have reached that cap so the point is moot... Exactly, and that's why I take task with Chill's mod edit. If he was a normal member he probably would have been tagged with a warning. | ||
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lFrost
United States295 Posts
On October 29 2011 10:59 raviy wrote: Can we establish that every game has a different skill ceiling? Chess > Connect 4 > Tic Tac Toe? From that, it's clear that one of either SCBW or SC2 has a higher skill ceiling. Claims that the skill ceilings are identical are therefore incorrect. Which basically means that if you disagree that BW has a higher skill ceiling, you're asserting that SC2 has a higher skill ceiling. yes, and there is a reason ONLY inferior bw players have switched over to sc2, because they cannot compete any longer in bw. if sc2 has a higher ceiling than bw, why did they suck so bad in bw? | ||
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