On October 31 2011 18:00 ReachTheSky wrote: I'm hoping that if there is a switch, the communities won't divide.
Sir... look around you. It already has. I wish we'd all stop fighting over this. Out of curiosity, (I really hope I'm not opening a pandora's box with this question) for those of you who think sc2 is a better game than BW, what aspects of the game make it better in your eyes. Please do not turn this into a let's flame bw or let's flame sc2 war in your response. Think before you post: will my post make anyone angry? If it even has a slight chance of making anyone angry then reword your post. The vast majority of responses of why sc2 is better has dealt with graphics and the improved ai. What elements of the actual gameplay do you enjoy watching?
Why I enjoy SC2 more in general (not only gameplay related and you can like BW more, that's completly fine): 1. I can play it myself without having to work around a restrictive user interface. You don't get as many rocks thrown into your way, when you want to do something. Watching a game you play yourself is always more fun. 2. By the lack of apm sinks I think pros will in the end be able to do a larger number of interessting things in parallel (they will just have more apm to spend). 3. I like the pathing of SC2 units more, it just seems less like moving on a grid. 4. The game is global not restricted to one country. 5. I am familiar with SC2, I know the players, the story lines, the builds, the units. 6. A smaller reason, but I haven't seen things like production tabs, unit tabs and units lost in BW games that's a little bit more spectator friendly in SC2. 7. Graphics: Nice to have, not really necessary but a nice addition.
When we talk about gameplay, I have maybe watched like 15 BW games, both high level games like JvF and games that I think were less high level (some seemingly smaller tournament games Sayle casts on his stream). In a BW game I do not see all the interessting things that are happening (maybe this is similar to a BW player watching SC2), therefore I cannot really compare the gameplay. But what I can say, is that something like preventing siege tanks from overkilling is not something that excites me, it's more like working around a bad unit ai.
This lacking knowledge about BW coulld be overcome, but the points 1-4 above are why I enjoy watching SC2 more, this does not mean that it is a better game, but personally will mostly watch SC2 (and from time to time a little BW).
not sure if joking or serious o.O
What exactly do you try to achieve with this response?
About the micro Ai comment, true nobody can ever reach that, but it is impressive how good certain players can do that and the skill is only going to rise:
That video just proves what a joke the SC2 graphics and pathing is. Big blobs of stuff shooting at eachother. What you guys also have to remember is that you can't compare BW in 2002 with SC2 today. SC2 today is dominated mostly by players with a lot of experience. MVP and MC trained BW for years on most of their free time. Their overall RTS skills are much better than Boxer's was in 2002, and they probably have double the APM, if not more. The top SC2 players today are really good and there's really not much Flash will be able to add. Whatever Flash did, Nada had already done a few years prior. The only thing Flash brought to the table was strategies, his ability to read games and adept and his flawless macro. If Flash switches, you might be able to see some creative strategies, or brilliant comebacks, but that's it. You will not see him change the standards on micro. Nada could match Flash easily on micro in BW, and what have he done for SC2 micro?
This is Nada's marine micro in BW. That group of mnm did around 10 times more damage than they was worth.
In similar situations, I have personally lost around 30 mnm to half of that amount of lurkers. The BW engagements are intense and requires your immediate attention so that you're not caught off guard. SC2 will never be able to offer that, and on top of that, SC2 will always be plagued by the blobby graphics.
The ppl who are saying it's a natural progression to go from BW to SC2 clearly have no clue what you're talking about since you can't see that there's a huge difference between the games.
The reason why we are angry is because we feel that SC2 is a downgrade. Tell us why our players should switch to a game that is worse? Also tell us why we should watch said game instead? Everybody would have questioned KESPA's sanity if they had transitioned into WC3 a few years ago, so how come BW -> SC2 is taken for granted? Blizzard games are not like Tekken, where there are little to no difference between each new version of the game. If a transition to SC2 is to take place, wouldn't you first have to ask yourself if SC2 actually is a better game? This is a question that the ppl who switched to SC2 never asked themselves. They just hyped it up blindly and assumed that the game would follow the same path as BW.
What happened with BW in Korea was a miracle and it would require a really awesome game if we are to ever see such a great scene again. The fact that KESPA seems open to just disband this scene in favor of SC2, who's future is very uncertain, is quite saddening. BW won't last forever, but I highly doubt that the korean viewers will accept SC2. As ppl have said, the SC2 scene is niched towards gamers. What will happen when the next big RTS is released? I remember WC3 was huge a few years ago, atleast among gamers. Now the game is pretty much dead. But more importantly, the mainstream non gamers in Korea couldn't care less about SC2. BW have transcended to another level. In Korea it's mainstream, a sport. I remember reading a recent interview with the young Samsung KHAN progamer Reality, where he said that the high school he attended was very understanding of his BW career, and that they let him follow a more personalized scheduling plan in school, so that he could more easily focus on both gaming and school. That's how mainstream BW is in Korea. Even grown up parents watch BW with their kids, and teenage girls follow the scene and their players as if they were K-pop stars. I don't think most SC2 fans really understand how huge BW is in Korea, and how many different groups of ppl that SC2 would have to appeal to for a transition to work.
SC2's future is not uncertain, are you kidding me? There is a HUGE fanbase around the world and the koreans know they have the best players and can make cash from a much wider (global) fanbase.. And i doubt BW is going to die very soon, at least not within the year.
100k ppl watching main events online isnt really HUGE fanbase.
How many people were watching BW recently? Oh Korean TV doesn't count.
A national crowd is often many times more valuable than a global crowd. Having 100k viewers from only sweden and 0 international would actually make regular companies very interested here in Sweden. That is also why MLG works, because it is localized to USA and even cities. Companies doesn't sponsor MLG because of their online viewers, it's because they have localized events and a lot of crowd. The online stream is just a bonus. Hopefully events such as MLG and Dreamhack can become as huge as BW is in Korea one day.
So I would definitely count Korean TV in this calculation.
On October 31 2011 18:00 ReachTheSky wrote: I'm hoping that if there is a switch, the communities won't divide.
Sir... look around you. It already has. I wish we'd all stop fighting over this. Out of curiosity, (I really hope I'm not opening a pandora's box with this question) for those of you who think sc2 is a better game than BW, what aspects of the game make it better in your eyes. Please do not turn this into a let's flame bw or let's flame sc2 war in your response. Think before you post: will my post make anyone angry? If it even has a slight chance of making anyone angry then reword your post. The vast majority of responses of why sc2 is better has dealt with graphics and the improved ai. What elements of the actual gameplay do you enjoy watching?
Why I enjoy SC2 more in general (not only gameplay related and you can like BW more, that's completly fine): 1. I can play it myself without having to work around a restrictive user interface. You don't get as many rocks thrown into your way, when you want to do something. Watching a game you play yourself is always more fun. 2. By the lack of apm sinks I think pros will in the end be able to do a larger number of interessting things in parallel (they will just have more apm to spend). 3. I like the pathing of SC2 units more, it just seems less like moving on a grid. 4. The game is global not restricted to one country. 5. I am familiar with SC2, I know the players, the story lines, the builds, the units. 6. A smaller reason, but I haven't seen things like production tabs, unit tabs and units lost in BW games that's a little bit more spectator friendly in SC2. 7. Graphics: Nice to have, not really necessary but a nice addition.
When we talk about gameplay, I have maybe watched like 15 BW games, both high level games like JvF and games that I think were less high level (some seemingly smaller tournament games Sayle casts on his stream). In a BW game I do not see all the interessting things that are happening (maybe this is similar to a BW player watching SC2), therefore I cannot really compare the gameplay. But what I can say, is that something like preventing siege tanks from overkilling is not something that excites me, it's more like working around a bad unit ai.
This lacking knowledge about BW coulld be overcome, but the points 1-4 above are why I enjoy watching SC2 more, this does not mean that it is a better game, but personally will mostly watch SC2 (and from time to time a little BW).
not sure if joking or serious o.O
What exactly do you try to achieve with this response?
i think he is trying to say that the post is retarded. in a nice way what do you try to archive with your question?when the answer is kind of obvious...but nvm.
About the micro Ai comment, true nobody can ever reach that, but it is impressive how good certain players can do that and the skill is only going to rise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGJP0BgvUPA
That video just proves what a joke the SC2 graphics and pathing is. Big blobs of stuff shooting at eachother. What you guys also have to remember is that you can't compare BW in 2002 with SC2 today. SC2 today is dominated mostly by players with a lot of experience. MVP and MC trained BW for years on most of their free time. Their overall RTS skills are much better than Boxer's was in 2002, and they probably have double the APM, if not more. The top SC2 players today are really good and there's really not much Flash will be able to add. Whatever Flash did, Nada had already done a few years prior. The only thing Flash brought to the table was strategies, his ability to read games and adept and his flawless macro. If Flash switches, you might be able to see some creative strategies, or brilliant comebacks, but that's it. You will not see him change the standards on micro. Nada could match Flash easily on micro in BW, and what have he done for SC2 micro?
This is Nada's marine micro in BW. That group of mnm did around 10 times more damage than they was worth.
In similar situations, I have personally lost around 30 mnm to half of that amount of lurkers. The BW engagements are intense and requires your immediate attention so that you're not caught off guard. SC2 will never be able to offer that, and on top of that, SC2 will always be plagued by the blobby graphics.
The ppl who are saying it's a natural progression to go from BW to SC2 clearly have no clue what you're talking about since you can't see that there's a huge difference between the games.
The reason why we are angry is because we feel that SC2 is a downgrade. Tell us why our players should switch to a game that is worse? Also tell us why we should watch said game instead? Everybody would have questioned KESPA's sanity if they had transitioned into WC3 a few years ago, so how come BW -> SC2 is taken for granted? Blizzard games are not like Tekken, where there are little to no difference between each new version of the game. If a transition to SC2 is to take place, wouldn't you first have to ask yourself if SC2 actually is a better game? This is a question that the ppl who switched to SC2 never asked themselves. They just hyped it up blindly and assumed that the game would follow the same path as BW.
What happened with BW in Korea was a miracle and it would require a really awesome game if we are to ever see such a great scene again. The fact that KESPA seems open to just disband this scene in favor of SC2, who's future is very uncertain, is quite saddening. BW won't last forever, but I highly doubt that the korean viewers will accept SC2. As ppl have said, the SC2 scene is niched towards gamers. What will happen when the next big RTS is released? I remember WC3 was huge a few years ago, atleast among gamers. Now the game is pretty much dead. But more importantly, the mainstream non gamers in Korea couldn't care less about SC2. BW have transcended to another level. In Korea it's mainstream, a sport. I remember reading a recent interview with the young Samsung KHAN progamer Reality, where he said that the high school he attended was very understanding of his BW career, and that they let him follow a more personalized scheduling plan in school, so that he could more easily focus on both gaming and school. That's how mainstream BW is in Korea. Even grown up parents watch BW with their kids, and teenage girls follow the scene and their players as if they were K-pop stars. I don't think most SC2 fans really understand how huge BW is in Korea, and how many different groups of ppl that SC2 would have to appeal to for a transition to work.
SC2's future is not uncertain, are you kidding me? There is a HUGE fanbase around the world and the koreans know they have the best players and can make cash from a much wider (global) fanbase.. And i doubt BW is going to die very soon, at least not within the year.
100k ppl watching main events online isnt really HUGE fanbase.
How many people were watching BW recently? Oh Korean TV doesn't count.
A national crowd is often many times more valuable than a global crowd. Having 100k viewers from only sweden and 0 international would actually make regular companies very interested here in Sweden. That is also why MLG works, because it is localized to USA and even cities. Companies doesn't sponsor MLG because of their online viewers, it's because they have localized events and a lot of crowd. The online stream is just a bonus.
Hopefully events such as MLG and Dreamhack can become as huge as BW is in Korea one day.
I would definitely count Korean TV in this calculation.
I would say it depends on the company. If you are a company that adresses different people from a local place, a local crowd with a mainstream audience s better. If you have a product tailored to specific people that you sell international, an international crowd within this people is better. It is really dependant on the company what is better to sponsor.
On October 31 2011 18:00 ReachTheSky wrote: I'm hoping that if there is a switch, the communities won't divide.
Sir... look around you. It already has. I wish we'd all stop fighting over this. Out of curiosity, (I really hope I'm not opening a pandora's box with this question) for those of you who think sc2 is a better game than BW, what aspects of the game make it better in your eyes. Please do not turn this into a let's flame bw or let's flame sc2 war in your response. Think before you post: will my post make anyone angry? If it even has a slight chance of making anyone angry then reword your post. The vast majority of responses of why sc2 is better has dealt with graphics and the improved ai. What elements of the actual gameplay do you enjoy watching?
Why I enjoy SC2 more in general (not only gameplay related and you can like BW more, that's completly fine): 1. I can play it myself without having to work around a restrictive user interface. You don't get as many rocks thrown into your way, when you want to do something. Watching a game you play yourself is always more fun. 2. By the lack of apm sinks I think pros will in the end be able to do a larger number of interessting things in parallel (they will just have more apm to spend). 3. I like the pathing of SC2 units more, it just seems less like moving on a grid. 4. The game is global not restricted to one country. 5. I am familiar with SC2, I know the players, the story lines, the builds, the units. 6. A smaller reason, but I haven't seen things like production tabs, unit tabs and units lost in BW games that's a little bit more spectator friendly in SC2. 7. Graphics: Nice to have, not really necessary but a nice addition.
When we talk about gameplay, I have maybe watched like 15 BW games, both high level games like JvF and games that I think were less high level (some seemingly smaller tournament games Sayle casts on his stream). In a BW game I do not see all the interessting things that are happening (maybe this is similar to a BW player watching SC2), therefore I cannot really compare the gameplay. But what I can say, is that something like preventing siege tanks from overkilling is not something that excites me, it's more like working around a bad unit ai.
This lacking knowledge about BW coulld be overcome, but the points 1-4 above are why I enjoy watching SC2 more, this does not mean that it is a better game, but personally will mostly watch SC2 (and from time to time a little BW).
not sure if joking or serious o.O
What exactly do you try to achieve with this response?
i think he is trying to say that the post is retarded. in a nice way what do you try to archive with your question?when the answer is kind of obvious...but nvm.
Well, I meant, what does it bring him to randomly provoke somebody, instead of giving a serious response, where he expresses why he disagrees with the content of the posting.
On October 31 2011 18:34 zhurai wrote: how about both BW and SC2 people stop flaming each other and just support each other/esports?
FFS this internal random bullshit of sides poking at each other is just totally retarded.
Why should I support something that can potentially ruin the game I love because of some arbitrary decision?
I couldn't care less about SC2 because it's obvious blizzard will not make it as good as BW. It became apparent to me when they removed Void Ray fazing instead of balancing the game around it and openly said they won't implement LAN (among other blunders).
Don't be stupid, SC2 can't ruin Brood War or kill it off, the only way BW can be killed off is if the fans stop caring about it, and considering that its still such a major cultural thing in Korea that's not in danger of happening any time soon (barring more match fixing scandals or the like).
I'm not talking about SC2 itself killing BW, but rather a potential (although unlikely) forced transition by KeSPA.
On October 31 2011 18:34 zhurai wrote: how about both BW and SC2 people stop flaming each other and just support each other/esports?
FFS this internal random bullshit of sides poking at each other is just totally retarded.
Why should I support something that can potentially ruin the game I love because of some arbitrary decision?
I couldn't care less about SC2 because it's obvious blizzard will not make it as good as BW. It became apparent to me when they removed Void Ray fazing instead of balancing the game around it and openly said they won't implement LAN (among other blunders).
Don't be stupid, SC2 can't ruin Brood War or kill it off, the only way BW can be killed off is if the fans stop caring about it, and considering that its still such a major cultural thing in Korea that's not in danger of happening any time soon (barring more match fixing scandals or the like).
I'm not talking about SC2 itself killing BW, but rather a potential (although unlikely) forced transition by KeSPA.
Why don't you direct your anger towards KeSPA then? It's not SC2's fault if KeSPA finds it to be a more suitable game.
On October 31 2011 18:34 zhurai wrote: how about both BW and SC2 people stop flaming each other and just support each other/esports?
FFS this internal random bullshit of sides poking at each other is just totally retarded.
Why should I support something that can potentially ruin the game I love because of some arbitrary decision?
I couldn't care less about SC2 because it's obvious blizzard will not make it as good as BW. It became apparent to me when they removed Void Ray fazing instead of balancing the game around it and openly said they won't implement LAN (among other blunders).
Don't be stupid, SC2 can't ruin Brood War or kill it off, the only way BW can be killed off is if the fans stop caring about it, and considering that its still such a major cultural thing in Korea that's not in danger of happening any time soon (barring more match fixing scandals or the like).
I'm not talking about SC2 itself killing BW, but rather a potential (although unlikely) forced transition by KeSPA.
Why don't you direct your anger towards KeSPA then? It's not SC2's fault if KeSPA finds it to be a more suitable game.
And how am I exactly directing my anger towards SC2? By talking openly about its flaws and blizzard's stupid blunders like no LAN, broken maps or dumb balancing policy? Are you really that sensitive? ;o
On October 31 2011 18:34 zhurai wrote: how about both BW and SC2 people stop flaming each other and just support each other/esports?
FFS this internal random bullshit of sides poking at each other is just totally retarded.
Why should I support something that can potentially ruin the game I love because of some arbitrary decision?
I couldn't care less about SC2 because it's obvious blizzard will not make it as good as BW. It became apparent to me when they removed Void Ray fazing instead of balancing the game around it and openly said they won't implement LAN (among other blunders).
Don't be stupid, SC2 can't ruin Brood War or kill it off, the only way BW can be killed off is if the fans stop caring about it, and considering that its still such a major cultural thing in Korea that's not in danger of happening any time soon (barring more match fixing scandals or the like).
I'm not talking about SC2 itself killing BW, but rather a potential (although unlikely) forced transition by KeSPA.
Why don't you direct your anger towards KeSPA then? It's not SC2's fault if KeSPA finds it to be a more suitable game.
And how am I exactly directing my anger towards SC2? By talking openly about its flaws and blizzard's stupid blunders like no LAN, broken maps or dumb balancing policy? Are you really that sensitive? ;o
You do know that blizzard made SC:BW right? And it is an expansion to the original SC that was so increadibly dumb balanced? Just saying
On October 31 2011 18:34 zhurai wrote: how about both BW and SC2 people stop flaming each other and just support each other/esports?
FFS this internal random bullshit of sides poking at each other is just totally retarded.
Why should I support something that can potentially ruin the game I love because of some arbitrary decision?
I couldn't care less about SC2 because it's obvious blizzard will not make it as good as BW. It became apparent to me when they removed Void Ray fazing instead of balancing the game around it and openly said they won't implement LAN (among other blunders).
Don't be stupid, SC2 can't ruin Brood War or kill it off, the only way BW can be killed off is if the fans stop caring about it, and considering that its still such a major cultural thing in Korea that's not in danger of happening any time soon (barring more match fixing scandals or the like).
I'm not talking about SC2 itself killing BW, but rather a potential (although unlikely) forced transition by KeSPA.
Why don't you direct your anger towards KeSPA then? It's not SC2's fault if KeSPA finds it to be a more suitable game.
And how am I exactly directing my anger towards SC2? By talking openly about its flaws and blizzard's stupid blunders like no LAN, broken maps or dumb balancing policy? Are you really that sensitive? ;o
It just seems awfully random to criticize SC2 on this topic when it's KeSPA you have a problem with.
On October 28 2011 20:13 Champi wrote: This is amazing news, I feel kinda bad for the hardcore BW fans who refused to make the switch though, hopefully they will come around and appreciate sc2.
Dont count on it. Why would i appreciate game that is not fun to watch for me? I will not increase your numbers with my watching. I will watch Company of Heroes VODs instead.
On October 31 2011 18:34 zhurai wrote: how about both BW and SC2 people stop flaming each other and just support each other/esports?
FFS this internal random bullshit of sides poking at each other is just totally retarded.
Why should I support something that can potentially ruin the game I love because of some arbitrary decision?
I couldn't care less about SC2 because it's obvious blizzard will not make it as good as BW. It became apparent to me when they removed Void Ray fazing instead of balancing the game around it and openly said they won't implement LAN (among other blunders).
Don't be stupid, SC2 can't ruin Brood War or kill it off, the only way BW can be killed off is if the fans stop caring about it, and considering that its still such a major cultural thing in Korea that's not in danger of happening any time soon (barring more match fixing scandals or the like).
I'm not talking about SC2 itself killing BW, but rather a potential (although unlikely) forced transition by KeSPA.
That won't happen unless the BW viewer numbers tank, and frankly why would you hold that against SC2 when its Kespas decision?
Man you BW guys are really bitter about Sc2. Maybe I should come shit up the BW forum complaining about graphics and other short comings, fortunately I have more respect for another games community then that.
We like our game you like yours, shitting on ours isn't going to stop any progress in either direction and just makes you look stupid.
On October 31 2011 18:34 zhurai wrote: how about both BW and SC2 people stop flaming each other and just support each other/esports?
FFS this internal random bullshit of sides poking at each other is just totally retarded.
Why should I support something that can potentially ruin the game I love because of some arbitrary decision?
I couldn't care less about SC2 because it's obvious blizzard will not make it as good as BW. It became apparent to me when they removed Void Ray fazing instead of balancing the game around it and openly said they won't implement LAN (among other blunders).
Don't be stupid, SC2 can't ruin Brood War or kill it off, the only way BW can be killed off is if the fans stop caring about it, and considering that its still such a major cultural thing in Korea that's not in danger of happening any time soon (barring more match fixing scandals or the like).
I'm not talking about SC2 itself killing BW, but rather a potential (although unlikely) forced transition by KeSPA.
Why don't you direct your anger towards KeSPA then? It's not SC2's fault if KeSPA finds it to be a more suitable game.
And how am I exactly directing my anger towards SC2? By talking openly about its flaws and blizzard's stupid blunders like no LAN, broken maps or dumb balancing policy? Are you really that sensitive? ;o
It just seems awfully random to criticize SC2 on this topic when it's KeSPA you have a problem with.
No, no it doesn't when you realize it was in response to people who said how great it is for esports, when in reality it's not. It's as if FIDE oficially transitioned to Checkers (exaggerating here) and people were supposed to believe it's better for board games that way.
On October 28 2011 20:13 Champi wrote: This is amazing news, I feel kinda bad for the hardcore BW fans who refused to make the switch though, hopefully they will come around and appreciate sc2.
Dont count on it. Why would i appreciate game that is not fun to watch for me? I will not increase your numbers with my watching. I will watch Company of Heroes VODs instead.
I'd rather the elitists quit watching e-sports if BW ceases to be played as one. They claim to support BW and only BW by pointing out flaws in SC2 and comparing it bit by bit to brood war. I don't want these kinds of fans following SC2, so in the end, I guess it's better for them to go out fighting kicking and screaming, because that will be the end of it. Unless they continue to stink up the forums.
Note to all you cool BW/SC2 fans, it's downright disrespectful to shit up the board of another game you either don't play/follow just to justify your own game. Neither base should be doing it and both are doing it equally on team liquid.
@maybenexttime you know that it might be worse for esport in korea, but most of the sc2 viewers are new to rts or esports in general and they dont care about sc:bw. sc:bw will not bring any more new viewers to the esport scene internationaly. sc:bw is already dead outside of korea and only sc2 as the only esport rts is bringing the big viewership.
EPT
