At one point we have to admit that SC2 will eat up BW. The sponsors go to where the crowds are. BW is definitely better than SC2 in terms of game play and balance.
Lets face it though. SC2 definitely pull in a lot of new players. Most probably don't even play BW. They studied about BW because of SC2. Even if they realize BW is better will MOST people play it? I guess not.
There are also a lot of players that switch over to sc2. BW is actually too mechanically challenging for people to become really good. The industry in the west for BW was never there and is too late to be developed. SC2 is like a fresh start and brand new opportunity. It is too hard to ignore the global impact of SC2. The inferiority of SC2 compared to BW is actually one of the reason fueling the rise of SC2.
SC2 will eventually be good enough with the introduction of new units/expansion/patches. But when SC3 is out, the same crap is going to happen. Nothing last forever, all things come to an end.
On October 31 2011 20:37 esotericc wrote: Man you BW guys are really bitter about Sc2. Maybe I should come shit up the BW forum complaining about graphics and other short comings, fortunately I have more respect for another games community then that.
Are you bitter about "Angry Birds" or something? I guess you're not. Would you watch a VODs of that game? I guess you wouldnt. That's how I treat SC2. I dont care about that game and I will not follow it. I'm not even mad about SC2 right now, just care about BroodWar teams. If I will be forced to not watch BW vods, I will not watch SC2 Vods becouse it's no fun for me, and I still have CoH VODs wich are almoust as fun to watch as BW vods. Deal with it. There are some guys who arent bitter towards SC2 becouse of BW, just dont care. My thouth is like this: BW teams will switch to SC2? FINE!!! As long as it's not forced by Blizzard's threats, but sponsors or popularity of that game (wich is a case rigth now, so it's good). But it's not a reason to watch it for me.
So...you compare SC2 to a phone game like "Angry Birds" and you write a paragraph about how little you want to watch SC2 when you could have written 1 sentence.
On October 31 2011 20:45 bRiz wrote: I'd rather the elitists quit watching e-sports if BW ceases to be played as one. They claim to support BW and only BW by pointing out flaws in SC2 and comparing it bit by bit to brood war. I don't want these kinds of fans following SC2, so in the end, I guess it's better for them to go out fighting kicking and screaming, because that will be the end of it. Unless they continue to stink up the forums.
Note to all you cool BW/SC2 fans, it's downright disrespectful to shit up the board of another game you either don't play/follow just to justify your own game. Neither base should be doing it and both are doing it equally on team liquid.
It's sad that you're saying that. Imagine that if Marine vs. Baneling micro was not possible in SC2, BW fans would be the most vocal group of people advocating for it, while the vast majority of SC2 fans wouldn't really care because they're content with the game as it is and eventually swallow any bullshit blizzard feeds them. It's the BW fans that can't get over the fact Mutas are nearly microless, Colossi are fucking boring, most games end up in a giant ball vs. ball clash, LAN is not there, and so on. SC2 fans usually just accept the reality and play some more ladder games/watch some stream.
Yeah, and imagine if BW didnt have defilers or stim pack or protoss. SC2 fans would say how little variety BW has, but BW fans wouldnt really care because its impossible for them to see anything bad about BW with their heads so far up their asses.
/pointless hypothetical discussion
Seriously, why are you bringing up "what if" scenarios and why are you saying SC2 fans just swallow Blizzards bullshit? SC2 has Marine vs Baneling micro, I dont know why you even brought up an example where it doesnt have it.
The reason why I bring it up is because the VAST MAJORITY of units in SC2 do not work like Marines vs. Banelings, Marines vs. Siege Tanks or Banelings in general (landmines, on-army drops).
The vast majority of units in SC2 can't have their potential increased tremendously and instead work as hardcounters to some other units: Marauders, Collosi, Immortals, Viking, Corruptors, and so on. Marines and Banelings are the exception in SC2, not the rule.
Whenever someone not from the SC2 community says that those units should get fixed and become more like Marines/Banelings, he gets insulted and ostracized. When someone from the SC2 community brings it up, he's usually ignored.
And how are Mutas microless? The fact that SC2 players have to continually force Mutas into a ball to get the same stacking effect as having a group a Mutas selected with a larva/overlord in BW should suggest more required micro for SC2 Mutas.
BW Mutas require you to master several different techniques across all three match-ups, and not just be proactive with them (which is the case in BW as well). Compared to BW, SC2 Mutas are extremely microless. To the point SC2 players are calling "magic boxing" a "technique" or "micro". But let's not get into that.
And we dont just accept the shit Blizzard flings at us. SC2 fans complain all the time. Theres so much QQ all over the place that its amazing Blizzard can sift through any of it to find useful feedback. Games dont "usually" end up in deathball vs deathball clashes anymore. You are so determined to believe that SC2 is a worse game in every way than BW that you just stick to old stereotypes about the game that were prevalent when the game was just released.
Again, I'm not talking about balance whines, but constructive criticism. Back in beta TL used to be full of it. Currently the SC2 community is very passive.
And I've watched pretty much every MLG and a multitude GSL games. MUs involving Protoss are still very much like this. Other MUs have gotten better, but they still could have a lot more micro (I'm talking about mechanical micro like Muta micro from BW, Void Ray fazing, different techniques of Marine splitting, Baneling landmines, etc.) and positional play.
This is the problem I have with BW elitists. I know BW is a more difficult game. I know its a more polished game. But why the fuck do you guys have to come in here talking all that shit so often? Then when we bring up how petty you guys are being, you hide behind the old, "Well you guys come to our forums and insult us too." I think Ive seen 5 posts total with people dissing BW and theyve probably all been banned by now. Any time theres some BW/SC2 crossover thread, loads of BW elitists come over to try and shit on us. I was into BW way back in the day as well and I can see why you guys hold onto BW so much, but this is just getting fucking ridiculous.
I'm not insulting your game. I'm pointing out its flaws and suggesting how those could be fixed so thatthe game lives up to its name and potential. How on earth is saying that SC2 could have more things like Marines vs. Banelings or Baneling landmines, better maps of LAN an insult? For fuck's sake, stop being such a cry baby...
On October 31 2011 21:38 Miefer wrote: @maybenexttime because of some random people you are certain that the majority is like that? because of no lan I should not play this game? I play only online like the majority of the people. I wish it would have lan for the esport scene but what use will it do when we boycott tournements that are not to be blamed because its a ault by blizzard. if we boycott all tournenments blizzards wouldnt care. you can also blame old bw players like day9 or tastosis who dont complain on air on tournements when things dont work on gsl or mlg. even blizzcon tournements had lag issues and day9 or tastosis didnt mention lan. on every tournement stream i am watching there are always signs with wishes of lan support by he audience.
I meant tournaments boycotting blizzard. Standing up and saying "we won't use your game unless you include LAN".
There has been a screenshot of a friends list filled with the Real IDs of several CJ, STX and SK players making it's way around the Korean web.
DISCLAIMER: The sc2ranks links below some pros are not confirmed accounts of these progamers, but just possible candidates for their accounts given the dates the accounts were created.
On October 31 2011 22:44 GTR wrote: i like how the person who created that image didnt white-out hero's id (which is herO). http://sc2ranks.com/kr/1852846/herO
As Korean accounts require players to sign up with their social security numbers and matching names, it is not easy to fake it. One way someone could possibly fake it is by asking for people with the same names as current BW pros to give this person their email addresses so he could add them. This seems unlikely though.
Other (possible) BW pros
DISCLAIMER: The sc2ranks links below some pros are not confirmed accounts of these progamers, but just possible candidates for their accounts given the dates the accounts were created.
On October 31 2011 21:36 Supamang wrote: So...you compare SC2 to a phone game like "Angry Birds" and you write a paragraph about how little you want to watch SC2 when you could have written 1 sentence. You sound pretty bitter to me dude.
Ok, you got me, I'm deffinitely bitter towards "Angry Birds". Comparision was a real insult. My apologies ;P
Ok, now serious notes: I am more bitter about some SC2 fans who says that BW should just "pass out", than game itself. I am not even mad at trolls as they are baned rather really fast. I am bitter also towards SC2 fans who think that BW "demise" will be good for e-sport. I am the most bitter towards SC2 fans, who hopes that BW fans will switch to watching SC2 and are exited about this. This is subcontious bitterness, as most of such a fans are good mannered and hadnt said anything offensive, but still it damages our mood. And if you read all this thread you will see how many SC2 fans are like that. Off course it is from SC2 board and I didnt notice that at first, so i posted my comment.
On October 31 2011 22:03 maybenexttime wrote: I meant tournaments boycotting blizzard. Standing up and saying "we won't use your game unless you include LAN".
Uhh, dont you think it's quite naive and childish?
On October 31 2011 22:03 maybenexttime wrote: I meant tournaments boycotting blizzard. Standing up and saying "we won't use your game unless you include LAN".
Uhh, dont you think it's quite naive and childish?
KeSPA stood up, China stood up. It's possible. The organisations behind the large events would have to be unanimous, though.
On October 31 2011 20:51 sleepingdog wrote: This thread was doomed to become a SC2 vs BW from the beginning....sigh.
What I believe the BW-ers are missing is the fact that starcraft vanilla actually was a quite terribly imbalanced game that needed many, many YEARS to become what it is right now. If we compare the development of SC vanilla to what has happened to SC2 in merely a year it is pretty mindblowing. Not only is is just not fair to compare a game that has evolved for years with a game that's one year old - moreover people miss that we are have still two add-ons to go until we are set with the final bunch of units. Currently we are playing nothing more than some sort of glorified beta.
If you continue this thought-process, it's a GREAT thing when BW-players are switching right now, because the amount of feedback those people - especially the coaches, not only the players themselves - can give to blizzard is huge. If Flash, Bisu and Jaedong give their input on how to improve and balance the game....then SC2 could become amazing with the 2nd add-on.
Maybe we could agree on this thing: currently, BW is > SC2 in terms of balance and competitiveness. But if the top-notch BW-players start playing SC2, their input especially when it comes to balancing HotS and LotV could turn out to be priceless.
Unfortunately blizzard is unlikely to listen to their feedback anyway... They did not listen when top players complained about the lack of LAN. They did not listen when they complained about deathball and extremely short battles. Same for the lack of micro, dull units and so on.
It's not about balance. Blizzard has to first fix some of the fundamental flaws instead of balancing the game around them. And they won't do that, they already said they won't.
I know Blizz can be stubborn, but they completely revamped warcraft 3 with TFT, redesigning fundamentals like how damage was affected by certain armor, etc. If enough people tell them that aoe is too strong in general and we need more unit vs unit interaction, we might see drastic changes in LotV like the removal of the colossus
On October 31 2011 22:03 maybenexttime wrote: I meant tournaments boycotting blizzard. Standing up and saying "we won't use your game unless you include LAN".
Uhh, dont you think it's quite naive and childish?
KeSPA stood up, China stood up. It's possible. The organisations behind the large events would have to be unanimous, though.
I don't think the Chinese proscene *stood up*, lol. Just because the hacked client originates from there doesn't mean that it's going to become massively viral that quickly. I can foresee it being used by tons of ordinary players who wouldn't buy the original client, but no prospective pro player is going to admit that he came from there.
On October 31 2011 22:24 NeWeNiyaLord wrote: WHAT!? no Jaedong!? so sad. Still tho. This is some seriously huge news!!! :D
Maybe he didn't add anyone? This is a leak after all
Hope your right, but on the other hand. Jaedong without flash,jangbi and best in bw? hmm.. that would'nt actually be so bad for him. ALOT of money he could have made
About the micro Ai comment, true nobody can ever reach that, but it is impressive how good certain players can do that and the skill is only going to rise:
That video just proves what a joke the SC2 graphics and pathing is. Big blobs of stuff shooting at eachother. What you guys also have to remember is that you can't compare BW in 2002 with SC2 today. SC2 today is dominated mostly by players with a lot of experience. MVP and MC trained BW for years on most of their free time. Their overall RTS skills are much better than Boxer's was in 2002, and they probably have double the APM, if not more. The top SC2 players today are really good and there's really not much Flash will be able to add. Whatever Flash did, Nada had already done a few years prior. The only thing Flash brought to the table was strategies, his ability to read games and adept and his flawless macro. If Flash switches, you might be able to see some creative strategies, or brilliant comebacks, but that's it. You will not see him change the standards on micro. Nada could match Flash easily on micro in BW, and what have he done for SC2 micro?
This is Nada's marine micro in BW. That group of mnm did around 10 times more damage than they was worth.
In similar situations, I have personally lost around 30 mnm to half of that amount of lurkers. The BW engagements are intense and requires your immediate attention so that you're not caught off guard. SC2 will never be able to offer that, and on top of that, SC2 will always be plagued by the blobby graphics.
The ppl who are saying it's a natural progression to go from BW to SC2 clearly have no clue what you're talking about since you can't see that there's a huge difference between the games.
The reason why we are angry is because we feel that SC2 is a downgrade. Tell us why our players should switch to a game that is worse? Also tell us why we should watch said game instead? Everybody would have questioned KESPA's sanity if they had transitioned into WC3 a few years ago, so how come BW -> SC2 is taken for granted? Blizzard games are not like Tekken, where there are little to no difference between each new version of the game. If a transition to SC2 is to take place, wouldn't you first have to ask yourself if SC2 actually is a better game? This is a question that the ppl who switched to SC2 never asked themselves. They just hyped it up blindly and assumed that the game would follow the same path as BW.
What happened with BW in Korea was a miracle and it would require a really awesome game if we are to ever see such a great scene again. The fact that KESPA seems open to just disband this scene in favor of SC2, who's future is very uncertain, is quite saddening. BW won't last forever, but I highly doubt that the korean viewers will accept SC2. As ppl have said, the SC2 scene is niched towards gamers. What will happen when the next big RTS is released? I remember WC3 was huge a few years ago, atleast among gamers. Now the game is pretty much dead. But more importantly, the mainstream non gamers in Korea couldn't care less about SC2. BW have transcended to another level. In Korea it's mainstream, a sport. I remember reading a recent interview with the young Samsung KHAN progamer Reality, where he said that the high school he attended was very understanding of his BW career, and that they let him follow a more personalized scheduling plan in school, so that he could more easily focus on both gaming and school. That's how mainstream BW is in Korea. Even grown up parents watch BW with their kids, and teenage girls follow the scene and their players as if they were K-pop stars. I don't think most SC2 fans really understand how huge BW is in Korea, and how many different groups of ppl that SC2 would have to appeal to for a transition to work.
SC2's future is not uncertain, are you kidding me? There is a HUGE fanbase around the world and the koreans know they have the best players and can make cash from a much wider (global) fanbase.. And i doubt BW is going to die very soon, at least not within the year.
100k ppl watching main events online isnt really HUGE fanbase.
How many people were watching BW recently? Oh Korean TV doesn't count.
Um. Why wouldn't it count? TV is the primary way that Koreans watch BW without actually showing up to the games. That's like asking how many people watch SC2, and oh, btw, streams don't count.
Since SC2 isn't on TV at all, that wouldn't be fair, would it?
On October 31 2011 22:03 maybenexttime wrote: I meant tournaments boycotting blizzard. Standing up and saying "we won't use your game unless you include LAN".
Uhh, dont you think it's quite naive and childish?
KeSPA stood up, China stood up. It's possible. The organisations behind the large events would have to be unanimous, though.
I don't think the Chinese proscene *stood up*, lol. Just because the hacked client originates from there doesn't mean that it's going to become massively viral that quickly. I can foresee it being used by tons of ordinary players who wouldn't buy the original client, but no prospective pro player is going to admit that he came from there.
I meant the Chinese government, which played hard ball with blizzard because of their disagreement. This delayed SC2's release in China for a year or so.
I know those event organizers are no government, but they do have some leverage. Blizzard needs them the same way they need blizzard if blizzard wants to milk esports (and they do...).
Ahhh, a good old news post turning into BW fans and SC2 fans shitting all over each other. It'd be fine if either side could be civil about it.
It's exciting to think of some of these players switching over, but it'd be terrible for the BW scene to just up and die all of a sudden. I hope a few players switch and that Kespa and GOM can be mutually beneficial to one another, but I could easily see this being bad for both games.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OPhm8.jpg)
