EPTOn October 26 2011 06:40 Noocta wrote:
And back then, noone was really complaining about emp anyway, marauder did the job alone lol
And back then, noone was really complaining about emp anyway, marauder did the job alone lol
this ^^
1.4.2 Patch notes PTR - Page 84
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Vamp
United Kingdom184 Posts
this ^^ | ||
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Captain Falcon
United States17 Posts
However for upgrades on the Protoss end, yeah it makes sense for shields because they are super expensive and almost never worth the upgrade until late game, however reducing the upgrade cost of ground weapons/armor is absolutely stupid. It's bad enough they get to Chronoboost their upgrades. THANKS BLIZZARD, douche bags -_- | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On October 26 2011 21:47 Roblin wrote: if you put the nydus worm somewhere where you already have access, then it would be faster to jut move your army there to begin with. your proposed strategy only works if you somehow place the nydus worm where you do not already have access, that would be something like inside his base or inside his territory. since you say it is not inside his base, it is clearly somewhere in his territory, however, if it is in his territory then that worker taskforce you are talking about won't be a taskforce, it will be anything from a few marines to his entire army. so, regarding nydus usage, its either: 1. you can get there faster without nydus, for free. 2. it almost certainly will not do any damage. 1. No. traveling through the entire map is not faster than through Nydus Network. 2. !?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!? once more the immaginary scenario: Lets say it is TvZ on Xel Naga. I'm on the bottom right, Terran is bottom left. Terran eventually took the top left natural. I place a Nydus somewhere in the top left main(far away from his main) Terran has established a good defensive position somewhere on his side in the middle. A Speedling Runby would not work. I send a couple of Roaches/Speedlings/whatever I want to harras the top left Natural (his 3rd or 4th Base) right as I see he moves out. Terran is left with two choices: 1) Deal with the runby, delaying his attack and giving you the possibility to attack him while he tries to deal with the runby and is worse positioned than before 2) Not deal with the runby and just straight up attack, thinking that you have too many units sent to harras. Now, either way you can pull your units back and attack his push with a force as strong as it would be without the Nydus-Runby dealing Economic damage. Sure this is very specific, sure this might not work due to Reason XYZ, but it is a great Option to make use of a Nydus. Second usage: You took a hidden base as Zerg, put up a Nydus and scouts, now your hidden base that is far away is directly connected with your main Base and you can use a portion of your army as defense and flank an attack with the rest. Third usage: you can Put a Nydus close to one base and put Overlords there, dropping the base, then you pull back and your units are back at your main WAYYYYY faster than without the Nydus, to defend a counter attack. This one will also not reveal your Nydus Worm, highly reducing the chance of it getting killed, giving you the chance to do it multiple times. Fourth usage: think of it yourself. | ||
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Blizzard_torments_me
Romania199 Posts
On October 26 2011 21:51 Elldar wrote: Nydus network for offense is stupidly bad, any player with a decent control of his main and is looking at the minimap, is going to spot it and kill it before it is finished. Outside the main base for faster reinforcement can be good if you reinforce with hydras or ultras, both units suck and that attack is probably all in:ish. Nydus is best used for connecting bases and allow zerg to take mains instead of 3 expo. (you expand to main for more easily secured 4:th). Which you could always threat with a nydus in his main but more as an expensive way to draw his army back, when he push. Personally I think the nydus network should only make a sound when you have vision of it on the minimap, it is not like warp prism makes a roar when they warp-in units in your main. p.s They've should had nerfed snipe too when they were at it, increased energy cost imo. p.s.s Why is there terran QQ's about ghost nerfed? It was bound to happen. Nerf snipe? So you could do what? Get mass ultras or mass broodlords with a few festers and steamroll any Terran composition out there? Ghosts are practically useless against ling baneling. All the losses to ghost I've seen at a pro level is because the zerg get's stupid ammounts of broodlords or ultras. Zerg at the moment has the most powerful lategame, and the only way Terran can do a good ghost transition is by going in the lategame with a pretty good economy witch more than half the time doesn't happen against constant zerg harass all game. It's funny that this Snipe whine is coming from the last game between MVP and Nestea at Blizzcon, where Nestea got 30 broodlords with no support army vs 20 ghosts and 14 vikings. I wonder why he lost. | ||
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leather gracket
51 Posts
On October 26 2011 21:42 Dalavita wrote: Ironic you say that because if you had actually read what I said you'd notice it was not directed at you. Seriously, go away. you edited your post, and it didn't have nothing but my quote in it before as you can see in my post.. you failed, so seriously, blame yourself and no one else. don't flame others for your own failure immature kid. | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On October 26 2011 21:42 Hypz wrote: Zealot has ridiculous dps along with survivability, and protoss dps is more based on a moving AOE units. I'll ignore the survivability part, you said yourself earlier that "Keep in mind that as a compensation to this protoss units have way more hp then other races units in general." and I didn't disagree, so the survivability part is not important zealot dps/cost: 13.3/100 = 0.133 marine dps/cost: 7/50 = 0.14 (unstimmed), 0.21 (stimmed) zergling dps/cost: 7.2/25 = 0.288 (no adrenal glands) 0.34 (adrenal glands) so this "ridiculous dps" of yours is lower than the ranged equivalent-tech-unit and less than half of the melee equivalent-tech-unit. regarding the zealot, I believe I have made my point. regarding the colossus, the "a moving AOE unit" as you called it (I assume you refered to the colossus at least) the colossus is the other end of the spectrum, it has a bunch of dps, but no survivability, it is an exception to the rule: "protoss units have way more hp then other races units in general." and as such should not be assumed to apply to "as well as way lower dps" either. have I made my point? | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On October 26 2011 22:00 leather gracket wrote: you edited your post, and it didn't have nothing but my quote in it before as you can see in my post.. you failed, so seriously, blame yourself and no one else. don't flame others for your own failure immature kid. I edited my post because I forgot to copy paste the quote from the other guy. The fact that you think something not directed at you is directed at you means that you can't figure out if something is a coherent argument or not. I failed because you replied to something that should have made no sense to begin with? Go away. | ||
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Humility
United Kingdom19 Posts
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NeThZOR
South Africa7387 Posts
Actually, I never really regarded balance as an issue in SC2, as it seems fairly balanced at present. I just hate it how people can keep on whining about the state of other races except Terran and say how underpowered they are. I am quite excited for the new changes which will potentially be implemented in the next patch. But just remember though, that this is only PTR and not the official changes to be brought about. | ||
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IamPryda
United States1186 Posts
On October 26 2011 20:35 darkness wrote: Imho, it's tough to balance Stalker without breaking PvZ. I doubt it would double evo chamber roach with a couple infestors stops any kind of mass blink play and by 2/2 starts crushing it so giving the stalker the proper damage increase from the upgrade would just make 2 base xgate plus 1 builds a stronger timing which may not be a bad thing consider how useless they have become. I am really surprised they have never even tried it on the ptr. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45047 Posts
On October 26 2011 21:37 Hypz wrote: Stop comparing HT's with Ghosts, Ghost EMP can't straight up kill units, you need to have a backup army that finish units of HT's however can idealy wipe out any standing army straight up with pure psystorm, that's a huge difference and you really need to aknowledge that. Ht's can also be morphed in to a 360 hp massive unit with splash damage and great speed. Seriously? Seriously? Say not to compare two units but then compare them and make a laughably horrible argument, while pretty much everyone (including most Terrans) understand that ghosts are by far the best spellcaster in the game... even with this upcoming nerf? | ||
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Ziktomini
United Kingdom377 Posts
On October 26 2011 21:58 Blizzard_torments_me wrote: Nerf snipe? So you could do what? Get mass ultras or mass broodlords with a few festers and steamroll any Terran composition out there? Ghosts are practically useless against ling baneling. All the losses to ghost I've seen at a pro level is because the zerg get's stupid ammounts of broodlords or ultras. Zerg at the moment has the most powerful lategame, and the only way Terran can do a good ghost transition is by going in the lategame with a pretty good economy witch more than half the time doesn't happen against constant zerg harass all game. It's funny that this Snipe whine is coming from the last game between MVP and Nestea at Blizzcon, where Nestea got 30 broodlords with no support army vs 20 ghosts and 14 vikings. I wonder why he lost. No snipe whine is not coming from that, it has pretty much been constant since the MVP vs July game on Metal, and MVP is the only person to really mass ghosts, and he's probably the most unbeatable player in the world right now. To outright say Zerg has the strongest late-game is a joke to be honest, that is so situational and untrue it's unbelievable, the MVP vs Nestea game you cited could even be used as an example of that. On top of this Zergs often fear going into late-game against a protoss too due to the deathball, especially on split map maps such as shakuras or metal or shattered. I don't understand why ghosts not being good vs ling-bling has to do with anything, the terran shouldn't rush ghosts vs ling baneling, that's just dumb. Lastly, your point about the terran not having a good economy by the end game due to harass makes no sense, that could be said about any race. | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On October 26 2011 17:11 Snowbear wrote: Play terran against broodlord infestor, then come back and ask for a snipe nerf. Infestor broodlord is impossible to beat if you are not ahead, so a nerf to this composition would be nice... Its not impossible, its too easily possible with the current ghosts, even from behind. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On October 26 2011 22:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Seriously? Seriously? Say not to compare two units but then compare them and make a laughably horrible argument, while pretty much everyone (including most Terrans) understand that ghosts are by far the best spellcaster in the game... even with this upcoming nerf? Ghosts aren't the best spellcaster in the game. Those are called infestors. Also, different units are different. | ||
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JediGamer
United States656 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45047 Posts
On October 26 2011 22:07 NeThZOR wrote: Now behold each and every Protoss: From now on may you never whine and say that Terran is imbalanced. Actually, I never really regarded balance as an issue in SC2, as it seems fairly balanced at present. I just hate it how people can keep on whining about the state of other races except Terran and say how underpowered they are. I am quite excited for the new changes which will potentially be implemented in the next patch. But just remember though, that this is only PTR and not the official changes to be brought about. Why, because EMP now has the radius of psi storm? Just because it got nerfed? If zealots did a thousand damage with each attack, and it got nerfed down to *only* eight hundred, would it be unjustifiable for players to whine about zealots being imbalanced? You need context, my friend. Let's see how this patch plays out. (And I know that Zerg players are still upset with the fact that Snipe is untouched, and Protoss players are still upset by the fact that ghosts still outrange high templar. And both of these are significant problems. Note that ghosts are still- by far- the best spellcaster in the entire game. But this is a start.) | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45047 Posts
On October 26 2011 22:15 Dalavita wrote: Ghosts aren't the best spellcaster in the game. Those are called infestors. Also, different units are different. Fair point. Infestors do actually counter the entire Protoss race with their EMP and are known to take out all Zerg late game units and spellcasters with their Snipe and Cloak abilities. Wait, that's not the infestor that has those spells? | ||
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ZorBa.G
Australia279 Posts
On October 26 2011 21:06 Qosmio870 wrote: I really think this is a mess... If you look at Code S race dominance it is true that Protoss is weakest and Terran strongest but how should an average terran (Silver-Platin/Diamond) hit these tiny hts now? TvP was hard enough before as you had to hit the hts before they could land its storms... And as if this wasn't enough they are buffing Protss's upgrades which could be chrono boosted out much faster than terran ones before! The upgrades also take a huge effect in PvZ as Zealots with +1 weapons only take 2 hits to kill a zergling rather than 3. As Weapon upgrades are now as expensive as a Sentry and a Stalker I believe the Protoss will think twice what to get... I'm kinda weary what effect the upgrade costs are going to have on the P v T/Z match ups now. Many low leauge Terran players don't actually utilise ghosts that much. Because of these buffs to toss, I think Terrans are going to realise VERY soon that ghosts are a must in at least the T v P matchup. I think Blizzard is making the ghost a staple unit to have in all matchups for Terran now. At least to all those toss who were happy not to see ghosts in these lower leauges. Expect to see them in pretty much every match up now. Because I can't see MMM straight up beating Deathballs anymore. I'm referring to deathballs minus the collossi as well. To answer your question about how ghosts are meant to hit HT's now. Well looks like snipe is the better option, once HT's are killed off... blanket emp the army. I don't think the emp AOE is going to change things up that much. Just follow this method... 1. Snipe observer hovering over the toss army 2. Snipe High Templars 3. Depending on how many snipes you needed... wait for a few seconds unitl you have enough energy for emp and blanket emp the army. It's not like Terran don't already follow this method, but most lower leauge players would just waste emps over the whole army and mass engage anyway. At higher levels, I don't think the emp aoe nerf is going to change much I think if anything, it will just make lower leauge players be more micro conscious about their ghosts. All the cheaper toss upgrades is just overkill though. I'm over toss saying we have scans as if they are free and like they are going out of fasion. Keep in mind; 1. Scans costs resources 2. You are not guarateed to see anything with your scans 3. Please just STFU toss... you have observers for crying out loud! A permanet cloaked scouting unit! YOU ARE GUARANTEED TO SCOUT! Give it a month and toss will find something else to have a whinge about. Everyone is QQ'ing about the ghost. Wait until the Viper is release in HoTS, that will be something to complain about. | ||
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KAmaKAsa
Finland210 Posts
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On October 26 2011 22:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Fair point. Infestors do actually counter the entire Protoss race with their EMP and are known to take out all Zerg late game units and spellcasters with their Snipe and Cloak abilities. Wait, that's not the infestor that has those spells? You know I can make the exact same fallacy with infestors? But that would just be stupid. | ||
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