EPT1.4.2 Patch notes PTR - Page 86
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DrBeansy
England85 Posts
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aelynir
United States26 Posts
On October 26 2011 06:47 Calgore wrote: The upgrade change will do nothing to help. If they had changed the icon colour however..... Terran upgrade icon colors are imba. Seriously, shields that look like they're on fire? WTF is Blizz thinking? | ||
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xzidez
Sweden147 Posts
The problem against terran as it is now is to start your double forge and get colossi out in time. This upgrade change applies only to +2 and +3. Hell, when you reach the time to upgrade +3 you are running on 3 or more bases. At this point, do you really think one stalker more will make a huge impact on your bioball? And since you cant start 1/1 earlier than you already do you wont actually be able to start 2 / 2 upgrades any earlier, even if it would be free, because 1/1 must finish anyway. Its actually quite sad how biased everyone is, even so biased that they cant see how small of a change this acutally is. For the record, anyone who didnt see the emp nerf coming is clueless. | ||
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KingOfAmerica
United States246 Posts
The way to do that is by modifying things with the highest skill caps, and making those things harder. Not making it so protoss can have 3/3 at 16:00. It is so vogue to trash on terran as being OP, but it is OP at the pro level. It has been nerfed into fucking hell everywhere below | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On October 26 2011 22:50 KingOfAmerica wrote: wow this is too much. TvP is already HARD everywhere below masters. This matchup needs balance at the pro level, not below. The way to do that is by modifying things with the highest skill caps, and making those things harder. Not making it so protoss can have 3/3 at 16:00. It is so vogue to trash on terran as being OP, but it is OP at the pro level. It has been nerfed into fucking hell everywhere below Then be the underdog, play harder and win more! As long as you know your race has the best potential, that's all you need to keep practicing. | ||
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TheDraken
United States640 Posts
On October 26 2011 21:58 rEalGuapo wrote: 1. No. traveling through the entire map is not faster than through Nydus Network. 2. !?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!? once more the immaginary scenario: Lets say it is TvZ on Xel Naga. I'm on the bottom right, Terran is bottom left. Terran eventually took the top left natural. I place a Nydus somewhere in the top left main(far away from his main) Terran has established a good defensive position somewhere on his side in the middle. A Speedling Runby would not work. I send a couple of Roaches/Speedlings/whatever I want to harras the top left Natural (his 3rd or 4th Base) right as I see he moves out. Terran is left with two choices: 1) Deal with the runby, delaying his attack and giving you the possibility to attack him while he tries to deal with the runby and is worse positioned than before 2) Not deal with the runby and just straight up attack, thinking that you have too many units sent to harras. Now, either way you can pull your units back and attack his push with a force as strong as it would be without the Nydus-Runby dealing Economic damage. Sure this is very specific, sure this might not work due to Reason XYZ, but it is a great Option to make use of a Nydus. Second usage: You took a hidden base as Zerg, put up a Nydus and scouts, now your hidden base that is far away is directly connected with your main Base and you can use a portion of your army as defense and flank an attack with the rest. Third usage: you can Put a Nydus close to one base and put Overlords there, dropping the base, then you pull back and your units are back at your main WAYYYYY faster than without the Nydus, to defend a counter attack. This one will also not reveal your Nydus Worm, highly reducing the chance of it getting killed, giving you the chance to do it multiple times. Fourth usage: think of it yourself. your first example: you have clearly lost control of the situation. terran in that case should just lift a command center and go in for a base trade. you obviously have nothing to deal with a lifted command center, otherwise you would be harassing with that instead of relying on bogus nydus play. mutalisks >>>> nydus. second example: how can it be a "hidden base" if you put a screaming worm in it? enemy checks around, sees nydus isn't in his base, he knows no zerg would be stupid enough to use a nydus to link their main and their fucking natural, so it's obviously a far expansion. alternatively, you could just work on maintaining map control instead of wasting money on nyduses and you can throw up all the far expansions you want. third example: so you research both ovie drop and get a nydus, because you're worried about getting back in time for a counter attack?? just build some farking mutas with that money, which also frees up your main army to do more than just sit around waiting for a counter attack. fourth example: this is retarded. just admit that the nydus needs work. no one is going to brand you with a scarlet letter for learning stuff. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On October 26 2011 22:44 turamn wrote: I actually really don't know how big of a nerf this is going to turn out to be. Oftentimes, It's just not one EMP that's hitting your army, it's a large blanket of 3-4 or more. This basically just means that Terran will need to use an additional EMP to make up for the lost radius on each singular cast. They still outrange Templar. so given proper play, there's still no reason that the Terran should not be able to hit their #1 target with an EMP. As far as the upgrade cost reduction, I do feel like shields were a bit expensive, but I don't really see how this is going to be terribly beneficial in the grand scheme of things. I'm not rushing for upgrades when I'm getting 3 rax scv all inned, or when I am getting 1-1-1'd. It just seems like Blizzard wanted a way to buff Protoss and this is what they came up with. I know that they have publically stated that they want to buff Protoss, but I do not know that this is going to be very impactful. yeah, it's kind of like a small buff that 'wouldn't hurt' haha. it might bump certain protoss players into using extra money they wouldn't normally have, into an extra observer, or an extra + earlier production facility. those things matter to me, and i think it's good to have those (vague) options. on the other hand, it might matter a lot for pros and lead to an even tighter game. while there are those builds that seem a bit strong, an extra 'kick in the right way' might lead to stronger players overall : D. stronger scouting, even better money spending & timing, and so on. | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On October 26 2011 21:58 rEalGuapo wrote: 1. No. traveling through the entire map is not faster than through Nydus Network. 2. !?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!? once more the immaginary scenario: Lets say it is TvZ on Xel Naga. I'm on the bottom right, Terran is bottom left. Terran eventually took the top left natural. I place a Nydus somewhere in the top left main(far away from his main) Terran has established a good defensive position somewhere on his side in the middle. A Speedling Runby would not work. I send a couple of Roaches/Speedlings/whatever I want to harras the top left Natural (his 3rd or 4th Base) right as I see he moves out. Terran is left with two choices: 1) Deal with the runby, delaying his attack and giving you the possibility to attack him while he tries to deal with the runby and is worse positioned than before 2) Not deal with the runby and just straight up attack, thinking that you have too many units sent to harras. Now, either way you can pull your units back and attack his push with a force as strong as it would be without the Nydus-Runby dealing Economic damage. Sure this is very specific, sure this might not work due to Reason XYZ, but it is a great Option to make use of a Nydus. Second usage: You took a hidden base as Zerg, put up a Nydus and scouts, now your hidden base that is far away is directly connected with your main Base and you can use a portion of your army as defense and flank an attack with the rest. Third usage: you can Put a Nydus close to one base and put Overlords there, dropping the base, then you pull back and your units are back at your main WAYYYYY faster than without the Nydus, to defend a counter attack. This one will also not reveal your Nydus Worm, highly reducing the chance of it getting killed, giving you the chance to do it multiple times. Fourth usage: think of it yourself. 1. moving to the place where you want to be actually is faster than: placing nydus worm (15 seconds) unloading from nydus worm (situational, but about 5 seconds (at least 10 seconds if its a zergling force)) and the nydus worm will send units in 1 by 1, as opposed to the "moving the units there" where all of them get there at the same time. 2. yes, if you put a nydus somewhere where you do not have access naturally, then it will most certainly be picked off. imaginary scenarios: #1: xelnaga caverns cant spawn bottom right and bottom left, neither can xel-naga fortress, is there a xel-naga I am forgetting about? unfortunately I can't comment on this because I don't know which map your talking about. #2: why would I take a hidden base? it is a prime target for harrass and I would have to park some units there, else the worm would be the first thing getting sniped in a drop (notice the worm have exactly 100 hitpoints) and voila, no fast reinforcements for me, and assuming I do leave some units there (perhaps that flanking force you mentioned) that means my main defence is weaker, but they can be brought back through the nydus worm! you say, and I say: "okay, fine, so I can defend a hidden base moderately better, but what advantage is a hidden base over a normal base?" in my opinion, that would be none, it won't give me more resources than a normal base, it won't give me more production than a normal base, and hiding a base for the sake of confusing my opponent very rarely works. so why make a hidden base? it's not better, only worse defended. #3 what did I drop? baneling drops die by themselves, so theres nothing to bring back. infestors are out of energy, so its good enough to get them out of the base, you don't need them back home, the overlords alone will do the trick. if I drop zerglings or roaches or hydras, its not to do damage, it's to free up supply and hopefully do some damage in the process, so why would I want to bring them back? unless you mean I am dropping my entire army. the I ask: why would I drop my entire army which benefit from big wide-open spaces into an area that is clustered with buildings? it will only help my opponent get into a better position, but true, it is possible that it might be an effective strategy. but it would only work if the opponent didn't see it coming, and remember that giant roar of the nydus worm that everyone can hear? I would automaticly be on my guard if I heard it. (this does not mean I would be ready for this particular tactic) #4 ultralisk transport as far as im concerned the only real reason for using nydus worms is the fact that they unload units one at a a time, not supply, but units, this means it will take a 12th of the time to unload an ultralisk army compared to a zergling army, and ultralisks are not speedy either (but faster than most units, almost 3) so doing hit-and-run tactics with ultralisks would be the most efficient use of nydus worms in my opinion. or, if you have a bunch of ultras in your army, you can plant down a nydus worm on your side of the engagement and if the fight goes bad, you can retreat with your big expensive units (ultras and infestors, maybe roaches and hydras), instead of having them die. you will lose the nydus worm though. notice that if you try the same with zergling armies you will most likely lose half of your army by using this tactic, you would be better of just running away with them. | ||
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ZorBa.G
Australia279 Posts
On October 26 2011 22:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Ummm... you realize that casting storm requires better foresight and micro than ghosts, right? -Psi storm isn't instant damage like EMP, so you need to lead the shot in front of the opposing army -High templars are slower than ghosts -High templars aren't fucking invisible Toss being a 1A race? Yeah you definitely need to try playing Protoss before you say things like that. I have played Toss, and when your talking about army confrontations when comparing Terran to Protoss. Terran needs to be more on the ball when doing so. - Casting storm requires more micro? AHAHAHAHAHH... don't kid yourself. Storm KILLS! ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS SPAM IT OVER A BIO ARMY! However with EMP if you don't get those high templars... it dosen't matter, say goodbye to bio and hello to storm. Storm is just as easy as throwing down Forcefields. It's like learning the ABC's of the alphabet. - You second point. Ghosts may be faster then high templars... but do you have any idea how much a terran needs to invest into getting ghosts at a time where he will have enough energy to emp PLUS have enough vikings to deal with Collossi?!?!?!? - Your third point, ghosts are pretty useless with cloak when you have a permanet cloaked detecting unit. And guess what... cloak also requires the terran to invest in. It's not like it's free. Now, Toss are getting all these upgrades so much cheaper. You don't see whats going wrong here? | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
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blackbrrd
Norway477 Posts
On October 26 2011 22:37 Jampackedeon wrote: Armor and weapon decreases.... I don't get it!?! These upgrades apply to EVERYTHING! Yet they would cost the same as Terran and Zerg who only get a portion of their ground armor upgraded? I call BS, or at least decrease the upgrades on my melee and ranged attacks for zerg (same for Terrans) However, if you were to do that... what is the point of reducing the cost at all as all races would once again be on a similar footing. Now you are just being silly, every race has the same sets of upgrades, if not for the same thing: Protoss (5): Ground attack, Ground armor, Air weapon, Air Armor, Shields Terran (6) bio attack, bio armor, mech attack, mech armor, air attack, air armor Zerg (5) melee attack, ranged attack, ground armor, flyer attack, flyer armor The special case is the Protoss armor/shields that only only count for health/shields respectively, so you need two upgrades (ground armor + shields) to get +1 "armor" for every ground unit. The bonus is that the air units also benefit from the shield upgrade. | ||
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Grildrak
Sweden44 Posts
The EMP nerf is uncalled for imo. All it will do is make low lvl (anything under high master) play a lot harder without really fixing terrans dominance at the pro lvl. If anyone would listen to this noob we probably would see the medivac's cargo space reduced and an upgrade added that grants them more space. | ||
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blackbrrd
Norway477 Posts
On October 26 2011 15:49 Brotocol wrote: BTW - is it just me or did this alleged "lategame chargelot" problem not exist before Blizzard used it to justify Battle Hellions? After watching every GSL I can't remember Protoss going lategame chargelot and winning. (I am assuming they ment chargelot+archon). I believe what they tried to say with the "lategame chargelot problem" is that it makes tanks not viable vs Protoss in the lategame. Maybe they should fix the "lategame viking problem" protoss has with Terran which makes Protoss air not viable vs Terran. (I don't see the Tempest fixing it, since it's range is waaaay smaller than the Viking). | ||
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
thats all i ask for. i don't want new units. i just want that. | ||
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Arnstein
Norway3381 Posts
Edit: yay, 1500 posts - reaver icon! | ||
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Madera
Sweden2672 Posts
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TwoMagTrav
United States195 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43766 Posts
On October 26 2011 22:54 ZorBa.G wrote: I have played Toss, and when your talking about army confrontations when comparing Terran to Protoss. Terran needs to be more on the ball when doing so. - Casting storm requires more micro? AHAHAHAHAHH... don't kid yourself. Storm KILLS! ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS SPAM IT OVER A BIO ARMY! However with EMP if you don't get those high templars... it dosen't matter, say goodbye to bio and hello to storm. Storm is just as easy as throwing down Forcefields. It's like learning the ABC's of the alphabet. - You second point. Ghosts may be faster then high templars... but do you have any idea how much a terran needs to invest into getting ghosts at a time where he will have enough energy to emp PLUS have enough vikings to deal with Collossi?!?!?!? - Your third point, ghosts are pretty useless with cloak when you have a permanet cloaked detecting unit. And guess what... cloak also requires the terran to invest in. It's not like it's free. Now, Toss are getting all these upgrades so much cheaper. You don't see whats going wrong here? 1. Spamming storms? Storms don't stack. EMP does, because it's instant damage. 2. You can run away from storms. That's exactly why EMPing is so much simpler. You cast, you hit, the damage is done. That's also why EMP does far more damage than storm. 3. Storm kills? Potentially, sure. But EMP- again- does far more damage than storm does. How can you ignore that fact? You take out 1/3 or 1/2 of an entire Protoss army's life instantly with a blanket or two of EMPs, and the Protoss can't regenerate it (obviously you're going to stim us down if we try to run away). 4. You're assuming we even get off any storms at all. Again, ghosts attack first with the spells. They have the longer range. You should be able to stop high templars from casting anything at all. If storms are able to go off, it's because you did something wrong, not because Protoss has the potential to pull it off. Your fault. 5. Don't talk to me about investing in spellcasters. Protoss is the gas-heaviest race, with Zerg close behind. Terran is by far the least reliant on gas, so you "investing" in ghosts is something you should be able to do all the time comparatively, considering how powerful a spellcaster they are. And this doesn't even go into the facts that ghosts are just plain cheaper and lower on the tech tree than high templar. Oh, and we have to research psi storm too. 6. Observers are cloaked detectors? Very good. And you can scan them pretty much any time you want and take them out insanely easily. And then we have absolutely zero ways of countering cloaked anything. Keep in mind there's no way to counter a scan. 7. "All these upgrades so much cheaper." What? First of all, it's just a 50 or so mineral or gas buff to only forge upgrades... which only means we can get +2 or +3 about 5 or 10 seconds faster now. That has nothing to do with high templar or any other research abilities. 8. Just felt like pointing this out... psi storm has a radius of 1.5 too (nerfed down from 2 in the beta), so now the EMP is getting equalized in terms of size. Obviously, EMP is still going to deal far more damage and it will go off first, but at least the blast radius is going to be the same. Assuming the Terran ever "permits" a Protoss to cast storm. | ||
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Philip2110
Scotland798 Posts
On October 26 2011 22:58 blackbrrd wrote: Now you are just being silly, every race has the same sets of upgrades, if not for the same thing: Protoss (5): Ground attack, Ground armor, Air weapon, Air Armor, Shields Terran (6) bio attack, bio armor, mech attack, mech armor, air attack, air armor Zerg (5) melee attack, ranged attack, ground armor, flyer attack, flyer armor The special case is the Protoss armor/shields that only only count for health/shields respectively, so you need two upgrades (ground armor + shields) to get +1 "armor" for every ground unit. The bonus is that the air units also benefit from the shield upgrade. Blackbrrd, he does not want to know the facts he just wants to complain about the wrong idea that has become a fact in his head. | ||
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Everize
Poland176 Posts
And no I'm not whining about protoss, it's just making upgrades even cheaper is ridiculous to me, not that it changes the game a lot, but making every upgrade cheaper is uh, especially the Energy Shield, in late game TvP its pretty strong imo... The amount of ghosts you need for every battle when energy upgrades are involved is big, and now with the debuff on ghosts, oh well.. | ||
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