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On October 26 2011 23:01 Grildrak wrote:
I think the protoss buffs aint that bad, stronger mid-game without buffing the late-game deathball.
The EMP nerf is uncalled for imo. All it will do is make low lvl (anything under high master) play a lot harder without really fixing terrans dominance at the pro lvl. If anyone would listen to this noob we probably would see the medivac's cargo space reduced and an upgrade added that grants them more space.
emp uncalled for? you consider a spell that does 125% the damage of storm instantaneously from siege range by an invisible unit balanced? people would flip shit if storm did 100 instant damage to terran armies. all blizzard did was reduce the size of emp down to a more reasonable level so terrans couldn't just spam emp all over a toss army to cause 3000 hp damage and disable all spellcasters. it will fix terran dominance at all levels because terrans at all levels blanket emp.
good change.
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On October 26 2011 22:44 DrBeansy wrote:
oh yeah its not illogical either. an easier way to 3 - 3 is a buff. its logical to fear a buff to something that you already struggle with
Right. So if I buffed pylons by an additional 1 HP, it would be a buff for something you already struggle with -- Protoss. As such, you have every right to fear the buff. I completely disagree with the logic that says: "If it is a buff by any stretch of the definition and to any extent of severity, it is logical to fear it." That's too simplistic for me -- so I'll respectfully continue to disagree. I am of the opinion that certain buffs should not be feared, because I am of the opinion that certain buffs do not necessarily have any actual effect on the outcome of most games (the exceptions being certain very high level Korean games).
Just because you personally decide that for you it does have a great effect (without even explicitly stating the actual impact!) does not mean it's a rational decision. Pour over it and get back to me with concrete complaints against the "buff", and in what ways it will render your games more difficult. I want details here -- for example, "the buff will be harder on me because it will diminish my ability to defend a +1 timing attack due to the presence of 1 extra zealot". Of course, if you give me those details you are basically saying that you are a top level Korean pro where every single unit matters, and indeed 1 extra zealot in a +1 push changes the game completely!
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I dont understand why they would blatantly buff protoss to this extent. I can understand WHY for most of these things, but the upgrades for protoss are already way too good- affecting all protoss ground units, regardless of melee or ranged, regardless of biological or mechanical (specifically gateway/robo, but zealots/templar v stalker/sentry/robo as well).
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finally the shield upgrade is actually worth the weight in gold. ^_^
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On October 26 2011 22:54 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 22:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 26 2011 22:35 ZorBa.G wrote:
Just to add to my last post. I just realised, while ghosts will require more micro needing more apm attention..... toss will just simply warp in more HT. HMMMMMMM.
At least Blizzard are sticking to their code with the Toss 1 A race.
So far I've gathered Toss will always be the 1 A race. Zerg will be the race that can mass so quick whilst having every ability available to them under the sun. Terran will only ever get even more micro intensive while Toss keeps getting buffed and more abilites are handed over to the zerg race. As Terrans get better with their micro, the other races will keep QQ'ing about how OP Terran is. You see what I did there? Ummm... you realize that casting storm requires better foresight and micro than ghosts, right? -Psi storm isn't instant damage like EMP, so you need to lead the shot in front of the opposing army -High templars are slower than ghosts -High templars aren't fucking invisible Toss being a 1A race? Yeah you definitely need to try playing Protoss before you say things like that. I have played Toss, and when your talking about army confrontations when comparing Terran to Protoss. Terran needs to be more on the ball when doing so. - Casting storm requires more micro? AHAHAHAHAHH... don't kid yourself. Storm KILLS! ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS SPAM IT OVER A BIO ARMY! However with EMP if you don't get those high templars... it dosen't matter, say goodbye to bio and hello to storm. Storm is just as easy as throwing down Forcefields. It's like learning the ABC's of the alphabet. - You second point. Ghosts may be faster then high templars... but do you have any idea how much a terran needs to invest into getting ghosts at a time where he will have enough energy to emp PLUS have enough vikings to deal with Collossi?!?!?!? - Your third point, ghosts are pretty useless with cloak when you have a permanet cloaked detecting unit. And guess what... cloak also requires the terran to invest in. It's not like it's free. Now, Toss are getting all these upgrades so much cheaper. You don't see whats going wrong here?
it's not that much harder (than pressing T and clicking on a bio cluster) selecting and right clicking portions of your bio army away from the storm. i can't recall all the times i pre-emptively did this against a worried protoss player and watched them whiff 90% of a storm. you can bait storms and you can avoid atleast half of the damage by escaping/backing up while it hits your army.
sometimes you see players like liquid`hero playing a PvT in lategame, meticulously singling out his own templars to lead and feedback non-cloaked ghosts (which are also leading and looking to do the same thing to the HTs). it's simply more costly to have those extra observers and the observer upgrade to spot for such situations and opportunities (more expensive than a saved scan, or simply having that cloaked ghost be its own spotter).
in the storm vs emp scenario, what is usually preventing a terran from backing away with a stimmed army and attempting to heal most of the damage done by portions of storms?
the more i imagine it as both a T and P player, i find it less meaningful to compare the feeling of both, or which is easier in any way. these situations, this sort of control, and the situations that lead to having to 'be on the ball' are all things you need to get used to as a player. i don't really think it helps to whine about it in any way as it serves to keep you from learning what you need to do (for yourself in these engagements, based on your style and how you play).
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ive never 1-1-1 a single time in sc2. ive always felt that i should play straight up to give opponents a fair chance thus making for a better game.. now im gonna start 1-1-1, fuck it.
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soo... No change for Zerg?
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On October 26 2011 23:10 TheDraken wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 23:01 Grildrak wrote:
I think the protoss buffs aint that bad, stronger mid-game without buffing the late-game deathball.
The EMP nerf is uncalled for imo. All it will do is make low lvl (anything under high master) play a lot harder without really fixing terrans dominance at the pro lvl. If anyone would listen to this noob we probably would see the medivac's cargo space reduced and an upgrade added that grants them more space. emp uncalled for? you consider a spell that does 125% the damage of storm instantaneously from siege range by an invisible unit balanced? people would flip shit if storm did 100 instant damage to terran armies. all blizzard did was reduce the size of emp down to a more reasonable level so terrans couldn't just spam emp all over a toss army to cause 3000 hp damage and disable all spellcasters. it will fix terran dominance at all levels because terrans at all levels blanket emp. good change.
some units don't even have 100 shield. and toss units have a lot more hp.
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On October 26 2011 22:58 blackbrrd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 22:37 Jampackedeon wrote:
Armor and weapon decreases.... I don't get it!?!
These upgrades apply to EVERYTHING! Yet they would cost the same as Terran and Zerg who only get a portion of their ground armor upgraded? I call BS, or at least decrease the upgrades on my melee and ranged attacks for zerg (same for Terrans)
However, if you were to do that... what is the point of reducing the cost at all as all races would once again be on a similar footing. Now you are just being silly, every race has the same sets of upgrades, if not for the same thing: Protoss (5): Ground attack, Ground armor, Air weapon, Air Armor, Shields Terran (6) bio attack, bio armor, mech attack, mech armor, air attack, air armor Zerg (5) melee attack, ranged attack, ground armor, flyer attack, flyer armor The special case is the Protoss armor/shields that only only count for health/shields respectively, so you need two upgrades (ground armor + shields) to get +1 "armor" for every ground unit. The bonus is that the air units also benefit from the shield upgrade.
You also have to consider scaling. For stalker vs roach or marauder, +1 attack is equalized by +1 armor, but +1 attack from T/Z is equalized by +2shield/+2armor. Same for zealot attack.
I doubt this is going to swing things in any new direction, but it's a small tweak that could help P without breaking the game.
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This is bullshit, why decreasing upgrade's cost of the ground attack ? That's not really serious, it's the same price as the zerg, while we need two upgrade (range and melee)...
Ridiculous.
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Alot of people reacting like this is a permenant change are you forgetting this is still in PTR stage?
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On October 26 2011 23:10 TheDraken wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 23:01 Grildrak wrote:
I think the protoss buffs aint that bad, stronger mid-game without buffing the late-game deathball.
The EMP nerf is uncalled for imo. All it will do is make low lvl (anything under high master) play a lot harder without really fixing terrans dominance at the pro lvl. If anyone would listen to this noob we probably would see the medivac's cargo space reduced and an upgrade added that grants them more space. emp uncalled for? you consider a spell that does 125% the damage of storm instantaneously from siege range by an invisible unit balanced? people would flip shit if storm did 100 instant damage to terran armies. all blizzard did was reduce the size of emp down to a more reasonable level so terrans couldn't just spam emp all over a toss army to cause 3000 hp damage and disable all spellcasters. it will fix terran dominance at all levels because terrans at all levels blanket emp. good change.
EMP is a one time nuke dealing ~37% damage to the protoss units, storm is a nuke that can be recast many times that can kill marines in 2 sec. Good EMPs ~37% damage, good storms ~100% damage.
One EMP sure is stronger then one storm BUT 5+ storms >>> 5+ EMPs
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On October 26 2011 23:16 HellionDrop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 23:10 TheDraken wrote:On October 26 2011 23:01 Grildrak wrote:
I think the protoss buffs aint that bad, stronger mid-game without buffing the late-game deathball.
The EMP nerf is uncalled for imo. All it will do is make low lvl (anything under high master) play a lot harder without really fixing terrans dominance at the pro lvl. If anyone would listen to this noob we probably would see the medivac's cargo space reduced and an upgrade added that grants them more space. emp uncalled for? you consider a spell that does 125% the damage of storm instantaneously from siege range by an invisible unit balanced? people would flip shit if storm did 100 instant damage to terran armies. all blizzard did was reduce the size of emp down to a more reasonable level so terrans couldn't just spam emp all over a toss army to cause 3000 hp damage and disable all spellcasters. it will fix terran dominance at all levels because terrans at all levels blanket emp. good change. some units don't even have 100 shield. and toss units have a lot more hp.
wow. changes everything. because the stalker only has 80 shield means that emp actually isn't 100% efficient!
i guess being able to half kill a stalker before taking any losses is balanced after all.
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I'll just say as a Terran, unless I get 4 gated (and even then sometimes), protoss are generally my easiest match up, and I hardly even use ghosts. I think the toss could use the help.
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Lol, as a Protoss I can now try to go 3 forges at a time and go 1-1-1 upgrades hahah EPIC
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On October 26 2011 23:16 HellionDrop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 23:10 TheDraken wrote:On October 26 2011 23:01 Grildrak wrote:
I think the protoss buffs aint that bad, stronger mid-game without buffing the late-game deathball.
The EMP nerf is uncalled for imo. All it will do is make low lvl (anything under high master) play a lot harder without really fixing terrans dominance at the pro lvl. If anyone would listen to this noob we probably would see the medivac's cargo space reduced and an upgrade added that grants them more space. emp uncalled for? you consider a spell that does 125% the damage of storm instantaneously from siege range by an invisible unit balanced? people would flip shit if storm did 100 instant damage to terran armies. all blizzard did was reduce the size of emp down to a more reasonable level so terrans couldn't just spam emp all over a toss army to cause 3000 hp damage and disable all spellcasters. it will fix terran dominance at all levels because terrans at all levels blanket emp. good change. some units don't even have 100 shield. and toss units have a lot more hp.
Some do, some don't (here's lookin at you, archon!).
It also takes out energy, and we need those spellcasters too! Sentry forcefields to stop the kiting bioball, and high templar storm/ feedback to deal damage en masse to them/ take out medivacs.
Pretty sure EMP also reveals dark templar and observers.
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On October 26 2011 21:58 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 21:51 Elldar wrote:
Nydus network for offense is stupidly bad, any player with a decent control of his main and is looking at the minimap, is going to spot it and kill it before it is finished. Outside the main base for faster reinforcement can be good if you reinforce with hydras or ultras, both units suck and that attack is probably all in:ish.
Nydus is best used for connecting bases and allow zerg to take mains instead of 3 expo. (you expand to main for more easily secured 4:th). Which you could always threat with a nydus in his main but more as an expensive way to draw his army back, when he push.
Personally I think the nydus network should only make a sound when you have vision of it on the minimap, it is not like warp prism makes a roar when they warp-in units in your main.
p.s They've should had nerfed snipe too when they were at it, increased energy cost imo.
p.s.s Why is there terran QQ's about ghost nerfed? It was bound to happen.
Nerf snipe? So you could do what? Get mass ultras or mass broodlords with a few festers and steamroll any Terran composition out there? Ghosts are practically useless against ling baneling. All the losses to ghost I've seen at a pro level is because the zerg get's stupid ammounts of broodlords or ultras. Zerg at the moment has the most powerful lategame, and the only way Terran can do a good ghost transition is by going in the lategame with a pretty good economy witch more than half the time doesn't happen against constant zerg harass all game. It's funny that this Snipe whine is coming from the last game between MVP and Nestea at Blizzcon, where Nestea got 30 broodlords with no support army vs 20 ghosts and 14 vikings. I wonder why he lost.
Snipe has been up for discussion before not like there is a new thing. (I have not seen those games my post has nothing to do with that, getting brood lords without support seem stupid)
Ghost deals sick damage to light with there attacks, has snipe for any other units (the fact that the snipe deal pure damage is huge aswell). They could but Zerg in the counter box for the ghost, they are that versatile.
Besides that army composition you are describing is all gas and tier 3, if you let any player get such an army you deserve to lose, because for that composition to work like you described it, you must've let the zerg take 5 bases uncontested. Besides brood lords + infestor don't ever steam roll a terran if you are both at the same level, it can hold up equally to a terran army, is that a bad thing? If you don't agree please link to video.
I can't believe Blizz intended for the ghost's snipe to counter broods and ultras.
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On October 26 2011 22:51 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 22:50 KingOfAmerica wrote:
wow this is too much. TvP is already HARD everywhere below masters. This matchup needs balance at the pro level, not below.
The way to do that is by modifying things with the highest skill caps, and making those things harder. Not making it so protoss can have 3/3 at 16:00.
It is so vogue to trash on terran as being OP, but it is OP at the pro level. It has been nerfed into fucking hell everywhere below
Then be the underdog, play harder and win more! As long as you know your race has the best potential, that's all you need to keep practicing.
Sure, because everyone has the time to practice like crazy to actually keep up. It's actually easier to switch race if you don't have the time to practice enough to get good at T.
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On October 26 2011 23:25 Elldar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 21:58 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:On October 26 2011 21:51 Elldar wrote:
Nydus network for offense is stupidly bad, any player with a decent control of his main and is looking at the minimap, is going to spot it and kill it before it is finished. Outside the main base for faster reinforcement can be good if you reinforce with hydras or ultras, both units suck and that attack is probably all in:ish.
Nydus is best used for connecting bases and allow zerg to take mains instead of 3 expo. (you expand to main for more easily secured 4:th). Which you could always threat with a nydus in his main but more as an expensive way to draw his army back, when he push.
Personally I think the nydus network should only make a sound when you have vision of it on the minimap, it is not like warp prism makes a roar when they warp-in units in your main.
p.s They've should had nerfed snipe too when they were at it, increased energy cost imo.
p.s.s Why is there terran QQ's about ghost nerfed? It was bound to happen.
Nerf snipe? So you could do what? Get mass ultras or mass broodlords with a few festers and steamroll any Terran composition out there? Ghosts are practically useless against ling baneling. All the losses to ghost I've seen at a pro level is because the zerg get's stupid ammounts of broodlords or ultras. Zerg at the moment has the most powerful lategame, and the only way Terran can do a good ghost transition is by going in the lategame with a pretty good economy witch more than half the time doesn't happen against constant zerg harass all game. It's funny that this Snipe whine is coming from the last game between MVP and Nestea at Blizzcon, where Nestea got 30 broodlords with no support army vs 20 ghosts and 14 vikings. I wonder why he lost. Snipe has been up for discussion before not like there is a new thing. (I have not seen those games my post has nothing to do with that, getting brood lords without support seem stupid) Ghost deals sick damage to light with there attacks, has snipe for any other units (the fact that the snipe deal pure damage is huge aswell). They could but Zerg in the counter box for the ghost, they are that versatile. Besides that army composition you are describing is all gas and tier 3, if you let any player get such an army you deserve to lose, because for that composition to work like you described it, you must've let the zerg take 5 bases uncontested. Besides brood lords + infestor don't ever steam roll a terran if you are both at the same level, it can hold up equally to a terran army, is that a bad thing? If you don't agree please link to video. I can't believe Blizz intended for the ghost's snipe to counter broods and ultras.
Terrans need something to hold up against the endgame zerg composition. If it's not ghosts, it's something else. Saying "if you let them get a billion minerals/gas, you deserve to lose" needs to go terrans way as well. Without ghosts, they don't really have anything at this stage. Without ghosts, that'd put the game on a time limit for terrans, and that's a terrible matchup to watch. The only time we've even seen ghosts decimate a zerg is like 3-4 pro games in SC2 history total, two of them being MVP after having a ridiculous lead against July, and Nestea screwing up. We've also seen mass ghosts dying to lings and banelings, followed by the terran losing shortly thereafter. Ghosts aren't cheap, and their damage against zerglings is mediocre at best EMP against HTs/Protoss is one thing, but the snipe whine is more than short-sighted and premature.
On October 26 2011 23:30 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 22:51 Dalavita wrote:On October 26 2011 22:50 KingOfAmerica wrote:
wow this is too much. TvP is already HARD everywhere below masters. This matchup needs balance at the pro level, not below.
The way to do that is by modifying things with the highest skill caps, and making those things harder. Not making it so protoss can have 3/3 at 16:00.
It is so vogue to trash on terran as being OP, but it is OP at the pro level. It has been nerfed into fucking hell everywhere below
Then be the underdog, play harder and win more! As long as you know your race has the best potential, that's all you need to keep practicing. Sure, because everyone has the time to practice like crazy to actually keep up. It's actually easier to switch race if you don't have the time to practice enough to get good at T.
Go ahead and switch races to an easier one, while the people playing the most demanding race with the highest skill ceiling (I hate that term) will end up developing at an exponential rate and smash you regardless.
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On October 26 2011 23:21 Grildrak wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 23:10 TheDraken wrote:On October 26 2011 23:01 Grildrak wrote:
I think the protoss buffs aint that bad, stronger mid-game without buffing the late-game deathball.
The EMP nerf is uncalled for imo. All it will do is make low lvl (anything under high master) play a lot harder without really fixing terrans dominance at the pro lvl. If anyone would listen to this noob we probably would see the medivac's cargo space reduced and an upgrade added that grants them more space. emp uncalled for? you consider a spell that does 125% the damage of storm instantaneously from siege range by an invisible unit balanced? people would flip shit if storm did 100 instant damage to terran armies. all blizzard did was reduce the size of emp down to a more reasonable level so terrans couldn't just spam emp all over a toss army to cause 3000 hp damage and disable all spellcasters. it will fix terran dominance at all levels because terrans at all levels blanket emp. good change. EMP is a one time nuke dealing ~37% damage to the protoss units, storm is a nuke that can be recast many times that can kill marines in 2 sec. Good EMPs ~37% damage, good storms ~100% damage. One EMP sure is stronger then one storm BUT 5+ storms >>> 5+ EMPs
The problem is, that Storms do continous damage over 4s and this damage does not stack on multiple storms in the same time over the same area. But EMP is instant damage. So you have to recast them all the time, but 4s is a really long time in Starcraft ... then they are over your Protossball is dead 
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EPT
