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On October 26 2011 22:58 blackbrrd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 22:37 Jampackedeon wrote:
Armor and weapon decreases.... I don't get it!?!
These upgrades apply to EVERYTHING! Yet they would cost the same as Terran and Zerg who only get a portion of their ground armor upgraded? I call BS, or at least decrease the upgrades on my melee and ranged attacks for zerg (same for Terrans)
However, if you were to do that... what is the point of reducing the cost at all as all races would once again be on a similar footing. Now you are just being silly, every race has the same sets of upgrades, if not for the same thing: Protoss (5): Ground attack, Ground armor, Air weapon, Air Armor, Shields Terran (6) bio attack, bio armor, mech attack, mech armor, air attack, air armor Zerg (5) melee attack, ranged attack, ground armor, flyer attack, flyer armor The special case is the Protoss armor/shields that only only count for health/shields respectively, so you need two upgrades (ground armor + shields) to get +1 "armor" for every ground unit. The bonus is that the air units also benefit from the shield upgrade.
How it it same as you only need 3/3 upgrades for: Collosus(which start burning every unit down at this stat), zealots(stops dieing after 3 armor), stalkers, immortals(which deals shit loads of dmg to marauders even without any upgrades), archons and even DTs? Those units are enough to beat any army kind of terrans/zergs. Add a storm into the mix and the terran bio force dies in just a sec. You can chronoboost the upgrades out even if you were behind and maybe even get them faster, or get 3/3 why faster than the terran. I don't get how terrans are supposed to deal with that protoss army now with the EMP nerf.
Basically protoss getting to the end game cheaper.
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The amount of people qq for a change to snipe is ridiculous. Do Zergs not want Terrans to have a fightin chance against Broodlord infestor?
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pretty disturbing that people are complaining that they don't like the EMP change because it was hard for them to EMP before so will be more difficult now. EMP was blatantly imbalanced so you had an unfair advantage all this time.
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Looks like a really good patch to me, hopefully we'll start seeing more protoss in GSL after this kicks in.
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All this talk about balance give me a pain somewhere. I hear you, but look at it this way, as long as you are not gm you've got nothing to complain about. Although there are balance issues, all three races are represented at gm in all regions.So if you practice allot and execute perfectly you can still reach gm no matter what. If you become as good as liquidHero,EGHuk or EGidra, then you can complain.
So until then gl hf.
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On October 26 2011 23:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 22:54 ZorBa.G wrote:On October 26 2011 22:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 26 2011 22:35 ZorBa.G wrote:
Just to add to my last post. I just realised, while ghosts will require more micro needing more apm attention..... toss will just simply warp in more HT. HMMMMMMM.
At least Blizzard are sticking to their code with the Toss 1 A race.
So far I've gathered Toss will always be the 1 A race. Zerg will be the race that can mass so quick whilst having every ability available to them under the sun. Terran will only ever get even more micro intensive while Toss keeps getting buffed and more abilites are handed over to the zerg race. As Terrans get better with their micro, the other races will keep QQ'ing about how OP Terran is. You see what I did there? Ummm... you realize that casting storm requires better foresight and micro than ghosts, right? -Psi storm isn't instant damage like EMP, so you need to lead the shot in front of the opposing army -High templars are slower than ghosts -High templars aren't fucking invisible Toss being a 1A race? Yeah you definitely need to try playing Protoss before you say things like that. I have played Toss, and when your talking about army confrontations when comparing Terran to Protoss. Terran needs to be more on the ball when doing so. - Casting storm requires more micro? AHAHAHAHAHH... don't kid yourself. Storm KILLS! ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS SPAM IT OVER A BIO ARMY! However with EMP if you don't get those high templars... it dosen't matter, say goodbye to bio and hello to storm. Storm is just as easy as throwing down Forcefields. It's like learning the ABC's of the alphabet. - You second point. Ghosts may be faster then high templars... but do you have any idea how much a terran needs to invest into getting ghosts at a time where he will have enough energy to emp PLUS have enough vikings to deal with Collossi?!?!?!? - Your third point, ghosts are pretty useless with cloak when you have a permanet cloaked detecting unit. And guess what... cloak also requires the terran to invest in. It's not like it's free. Now, Toss are getting all these upgrades so much cheaper. You don't see whats going wrong here? 1. Spamming storms? Storms don't stack. EMP does, because it's instant damage. 2. You can run away from storms. That's exactly why EMPing is so much simpler. You cast, you hit, the damage is done. That's also why EMP does far more damage than storm. 3. Storm kills? Potentially, sure. But EMP- again- does far more damage than storm does. How can you ignore that fact? You take out 1/3 or 1/2 of an entire Protoss army's life instantly with a blanket or two of EMPs, and the Protoss can't regenerate it (obviously you're going to stim us down if we try to run away). 4. You're assuming we even get off any storms at all. Again, ghosts attack first with the spells. They have the longer range. You should be able to stop high templars from casting anything at all. If storms are able to go off, it's because you did something wrong, not because Protoss has the potential to pull it off. Your fault. 5. Don't talk to me about investing in spellcasters. Protoss is the gas-heaviest race, with Zerg close behind. Terran is by far the least reliant on gas, so you "investing" in ghosts is something you should be able to do all the time comparatively, considering how powerful a spellcaster they are. And this doesn't even go into the facts that ghosts are just plain cheaper and lower on the tech tree than high templar. Oh, and we have to research psi storm too. 6. Observers are cloaked detectors? Very good. And you can scan them pretty much any time you want and take them out insanely easily. And then we have absolutely zero ways of countering cloaked anything. Keep in mind there's no way to counter a scan. 7. "All these upgrades so much cheaper." What? First of all, it's just a 50 or so mineral or gas buff to only forge upgrades... which only means we can get +2 or +3 about 5 or 10 seconds faster now. That has nothing to do with high templar or any other research abilities. 8. Just felt like pointing this out... psi storm has a radius of 1.5 too (nerfed down from 2 in the beta), so now the EMP is getting equalized in terms of size. Obviously, EMP is still going to deal far more damage and it will go off first, but at least the blast radius is going to be the same. Assuming the Terran ever "permits" a Protoss to cast storm.
not hating, but you're actually throwing a few assumptions down yourself which aren't 100% fact in this case. not a big deal, but i do need to say a few things. since we're all theorycrafting a bit here, i'm personally not going to assume that a terran -will- be using bio with their ghosts in every T v P--- one reason is simply because the game has yet to solidify in that direction.
although that takes things out of context, it's not entirely true either that a ghost gets its emp off effectively each and every time. yes, there's that early storm to potentially zone out a cluster of ghosts, or the ability to force the terran to react to leading HT because of its feedback. being able to do any of that doesn't necessarily mean the protoss player is much better than the terran either.
i also want to throw out there a couple of other things. one being that the protoss in a mostly zealot stalker collos comp.---or just a regular ground army--- can potentially retreat or engage faster than a terran can. it can come down to pre-positioning of the slower units in the far back, quick forcefields, or even defensive storms. stim also damages the army similar to how emp would strip the health of a protoss army, basically by 1/5th of max hp. there are plenty of people who over-stim over the course of a fight, and dont forget that a protoss reinforces quickly. potentially instantly while a terran does not have this option with any composition that they are using.
there are so many gateway units and atleast 1/rd of them are spellcasters, being the sentry with instant forcefield and that HT.
i'm just saying that when it comes to it, both races are very different, control very differently, and it's early to determine what skill set a protoss player needs in general. we've seen a lot of bio from terran, but mech is not yet entirely out of the question. there are so many more things to consider if you're the compare the two races.
i can't argue though that if you 1-a the armies together as clumps and control only the spellcasters, the terran has an easier advantage. that's not the epitome of good play though, and so i think examples relating to that aren't the best.
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On October 26 2011 23:43 Jinx... wrote:
All this talk about balance give me a pain somewhere. I hear you, but look at it this way, as long as you are not gm you've got nothing to complain about. Although there are balance issues, all three races are represented at gm in all regions.So if you practice allot and execute perfectly you can still reach gm no matter what. If you become as good as liquidHero,EGHuk or EGidra, then you can complain.
So until then gl hf.
So I'm not allowed to complain when I tune in to watch GSL and half the games are TvT?
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United Arab Emirates874 Posts
On October 26 2011 23:43 Jinx... wrote:
All this talk about balance give me a pain somewhere. I hear you, but look at it this way, as long as you are not gm you've got nothing to complain about. Although there are balance issues, all three races are represented at gm in all regions.So if you practice allot and execute perfectly you can still reach gm no matter what. If you become as good as liquidHero,EGHuk or EGidra, then you can complain.
So until then gl hf.
This. I totally agree..
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On October 26 2011 06:48 UncleSam wrote:
So what about zergs? ZvP +2 timing is already strong ffs...
Protoss will save 25 minerals and 25 gas with a +2 timing. Enough to make... not even one more unit at that time.
But the buffs are a step in the right direction. Is it a big change? No. It certainly encourages double forge though.
EMP the same size as Storm seems more reasonable. We'll see how this pans out.
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Sweden302 Posts
I don't think the ghost nerf is enough. Do the terrans complaining even realize the amount of damage EMP does? I mean sure you can't kill stuff with it but it does like 500-800 damage instantly, nothing else in the game even comes close to that, so fucking overpowered I can't believe it has been in game for so long.
Reduce it to 50 shield damage and reduce the range by 1-2.
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On October 26 2011 23:53 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 23:43 Jinx... wrote:
All this talk about balance give me a pain somewhere. I hear you, but look at it this way, as long as you are not gm you've got nothing to complain about. Although there are balance issues, all three races are represented at gm in all regions.So if you practice allot and execute perfectly you can still reach gm no matter what. If you become as good as liquidHero,EGHuk or EGidra, then you can complain.
So until then gl hf. So I'm not allowed to complain when I tune in to watch GSL and half the games are TvT?
Only half? 0_o
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This is an extremely noobish question, but I don't really play protoss so hopefully someone doesn't mind answering...
What exactly does the shield upgrade, upgrade? Is it like an armor upgrade specifically for the shield HP?
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Neft Terran again. So sad
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On October 26 2011 06:29 frignr wrote: ...we can only get half as many units with emp T-T
I don't get it why people T_T about the emp nerf? you can still cover huge portion of the army with 4-5 ghost's!
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On October 26 2011 23:43 Jinx... wrote:
All this talk about balance give me a pain somewhere. I hear you, but look at it this way, as long as you are not gm you've got nothing to complain about. Although there are balance issues, all three races are represented at gm in all regions.So if you practice allot and execute perfectly you can still reach gm no matter what. If you become as good as liquidHero,EGHuk or EGidra, then you can complain.
So until then gl hf.
just because you can reach gm with any race doesn't mean the game is not balanced. i mean if P had a one-shot-kill-all unit that is obtained real easily at the lower leagues but is totally not viable in M/GM, P would be considered imba.
and if a unit requires pro-level skill to even remotely work in the first place there is clearly something wrong with the unit, it's like the opposite of having something that can just be 1-aed
sure lower levels screaming "omg why my mass zerglings suck vs banelings" clearly doesn't mean banelings are OP, but in the middle of all their complaining there might be some truth.
the game wouldn't be where it is today without having some catering to lower level players. but like bw has shown, it can be done in a manner that attracts the casual player but make it fun and viable at the pro level.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On October 26 2011 23:58 Blacklizard wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 06:48 UncleSam wrote:
So what about zergs? ZvP +2 timing is already strong ffs... Protoss will save 25 minerals and 25 gas with a +2 timing. Enough to make... not even one more unit at that time. But the buffs are a step in the right direction. Is it a big change? No. It certainly encourages double forge though. EMP the same size as Storm seems more reasonable. We'll see how this pans out.
Dude, as another thread showed, this change now means that a 2/2 attack can have 1 less zealot, and one more stalker. Apparently that's not game changing
Its a nice small buff to upgrades that costs a ton. Love it
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On October 26 2011 23:54 ticktack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 23:43 Jinx... wrote:
All this talk about balance give me a pain somewhere. I hear you, but look at it this way, as long as you are not gm you've got nothing to complain about. Although there are balance issues, all three races are represented at gm in all regions.So if you practice allot and execute perfectly you can still reach gm no matter what. If you become as good as liquidHero,EGHuk or EGidra, then you can complain.
So until then gl hf. This. I totally agree..
even if i pick x race and it has y imbalanced handicap yet somehow i make it into gm, it doesn't make the game balanced. y handicap (whatever it may be) is still present and should be dealt with. yes of course ignore the stupid posts like "give marines splash!" or something along those lines but do take a look at least at others say. sc2 whether you like it or not has players across all skill levels and for sc2 to remain viable in e-sports and to attract new people, it needs to be "balanced" for all. what that balance is remains to be seen; we still have a long way and many patches to go.
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On October 26 2011 23:58 pezit wrote:
I don't think the ghost nerf is enough. Do the terrans complaining even realize the amount of damage EMP does? I mean sure you can't kill stuff with it but it does like 500-800 damage instantly, nothing else in the game even comes close to that, so fucking overpowered I can't believe it has been in game for so long.
Reduce it to 50 shield damage and reduce the range by 1-2.
So you would recommend Blizzard to straight away, without doing any testing, reduce the effectiveness of EMP by atleast 75%? Are you serious?
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On October 26 2011 23:58 pezit wrote:
I don't think the ghost nerf is enough. Do the terrans complaining even realize the amount of damage EMP does? I mean sure you can't kill stuff with it but it does like 500-800 damage instantly, nothing else in the game even comes close to that, so fucking overpowered I can't believe it has been in game for so long.
Reduce it to 50 shield damage and reduce the range by 1-2.
well sorry to be so lame over your post : D
but have you seen a mass of ravens using hunter seeker on a fleet of BCs? haha
taking it more seriously, i do recall ravens being quite a bit cheaper and slightly faster to build than a BC, and yet they're ultimately so good in an ultimate mass BC vs raven situation.
this is just what i thought of when when you spoke about EMP over protoss ground in that tone.
taking it even more seriously, i mean... there are good times and bad times to attack. such as a cheeky situation where your have more BCS than they do ravens with full energy, or the previous one-sided situation i told you about (where the ravens are in masses and are maxxed on energy).
maybe it's a bad time to attack when the terran you're facing as protoss, has enough to carpet over your army with emps (and while you have no solution for it at that point) or even when the ghosts have enough for 1 emp.
just my 2cents
and for the record, mass raven in beta ftw LOL.
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On October 26 2011 23:53 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 23:43 Jinx... wrote:
All this talk about balance give me a pain somewhere. I hear you, but look at it this way, as long as you are not gm you've got nothing to complain about. Although there are balance issues, all three races are represented at gm in all regions.So if you practice allot and execute perfectly you can still reach gm no matter what. If you become as good as liquidHero,EGHuk or EGidra, then you can complain.
So until then gl hf. So I'm not allowed to complain when I tune in to watch GSL and half the games are TvT?
Code S is to heavily player influenced to be balanced statistically between the races.
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EPT
