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testthewest
Germany274 Posts
Armor und shields just cover a part of the hp-pool (shields+actual hp). Shields can regenerate, so be potential of multiple use (blinksstalkers/archons), armor comes mostly ontop of a basearmor, thus making an upgrade advantage over the opponent even stronger (exapmle: x/1/0 stalker can take 42 zergling hits w/o dying, a x/0/1 stalker can only take 39 zergling hits). So rebalancing to make them more equal would be something likethis: weapons: 150/225/300 armor: 75/125/200 shields: 100/175/250 | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13379 Posts
On October 27 2011 00:53 testthewest wrote: I wonder why they didn't adjust the costs due to their value. Weapons is the best upgrade hands down. It affects the whole army (nobody builds toss air for more than cheese or gimick strats) all the time. Armor und shields just cover a part of the hp-pool (shields+actual hp). Shields can regenerate, so be potential of multiple use (blinksstalkers/archons), armor comes mostly ontop of a basearmor, thus making an upgrade advantage over the opponent even stronger (exapmle: x/1/0 stalker can take 42 zergling hits w/o dying, a x/0/1 stalker can only take 39 zergling hits). So rebalancing to make them more equal would be something likethis: weapons: 150/225/300 armor: 75/125/200 shields: 100/175/250 I would get +3 armour vs Terran so fast with those changes completely ignoring attack and instead getting a lot of zealots. Like a lot of zealots and win many many engagements thanks to the +3 armour. All chrono on that and slowly spend gas on archons. Thats a ridiculous change you do realise I hope? | ||
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andrewnguyener
United States548 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43764 Posts
On October 26 2011 23:53 nanaoei wrote: not hating, but you're actually throwing a few assumptions down yourself which aren't 100% fact in this case. not a big deal, but i do need to say a few things. since we're all theorycrafting a bit here, i'm personally not going to assume that a terran -will- be using bio with their ghosts in every T v P--- one reason is simply because the game has yet to solidify in that direction. although that takes things out of context, it's not entirely true either that a ghost gets its emp off effectively each and every time. yes, there's that early storm to potentially zone out a cluster of ghosts, or the ability to force the terran to react to leading HT because of its feedback. being able to do any of that doesn't necessarily mean the protoss player is much better than the terran either. i also want to throw out there a couple of other things. one being that the protoss in a mostly zealot stalker collos comp.---or just a regular ground army--- can potentially retreat or engage faster than a terran can. it can come down to pre-positioning of the slower units in the far back, quick forcefields, or even defensive storms. stim also damages the army similar to how emp would strip the health of a protoss army, basically by 1/5th of max hp. there are plenty of people who over-stim over the course of a fight, and dont forget that a protoss reinforces quickly. potentially instantly while a terran does not have this option with any composition that they are using. there are so many gateway units and atleast 1/rd of them are spellcasters, being the sentry with instant forcefield and that HT. i'm just saying that when it comes to it, both races are very different, control very differently, and it's early to determine what skill set a protoss player needs in general. we've seen a lot of bio from terran, but mech is not yet entirely out of the question. there are so many more things to consider if you're the compare the two races. i can't argue though that if you 1-a the armies together as clumps and control only the spellcasters, the terran has an easier advantage. that's not the epitome of good play though, and so i think examples relating to that aren't the best. I guess a Terran could come up with a different unit composition in late game TvP, but I thought it was relatively standard for Terran to go some variation of marines, marauders, medivacs, vikings, and ghosts. You really don't see too many other units being massed in the late game, I think. But yes, it's true that I assumed the Terran was going mainly bio... since that's the reason why the Protoss would be making high templars  If the Terran was going mech for some reason, chances are the Protoss wouldn't be rushing for storm. As far as assuming that EMPs won't go off in the proper locations, I'm aware that players aren't perfect (this works for both the Terran and the Protoss), but if you're going to balance the game, you should assume the ideal circumstances and the potential of a spell. This is why the game is balanced around the pro-gamers and not around the bronze league players. I disagree with your claim that Protoss can retreat or engage faster than Terran can, and that's because of stim. Yes, stalkers might be able to blink, and if you have a few sentries, forcefields might be decently effective, but Terran can outrun the entire Protoss army (even with charge), the Protoss army isn't even all the same speed, and concussive shells just makes matters worse. I definitely agree with you that there are many things to consider when comparing races though. That's definitely true, and we often overlook variables when trying to assess just a single point. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On October 27 2011 00:26 Blacklizard wrote: It's cracking me up reading through the early comments with all the misinformation. So +3 weapons +3 armor upgraded Protoss save exactly 75 min/75 gas total. This is nothing compared to the gas saved when ghosts went from 150 gas to 100 gas. You keep making ghosts all game typically, and you save 50 gas each time. Build 5 ghosts? 250 gas saved. Build 10 ghosts? Blizzard saved you 500 gas after the 1.3.3 (?) patch. That's a big deal. I still don't know why they made ghosts so cheap... was it for TvZ infestor problems or what? So let's not forget, you only get upgrades once... you only get the savings once. The ghost change was: Cost changed from 150/150 to 200/100. +50 minerals, -50 gas. What is the terran problem in tvz and tvp when you don't play mech (and if you play mech vs toss you lose anyways)? MINERALS. You got too much gas in the bank. The ghost change was a nerf imo. | ||
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blackbrrd
Norway477 Posts
On October 27 2011 00:47 ElvisTek wrote: Phoenix that needs energy to lift ghosts?Why don't just remove it and make the ghost a uber-nerfed unit as the reaper is? ... And make the ghost completely useless for it's cost? You are a protoss player.. and you know ghosts are the only chance the terran has to face the protoss units... As the same as terrans players needs to learn how to snipe your HT (Yes i prefer snipe them so i wont need more energy to be casted against Archons).. learn to feedback them... feed back actually does huge damage if you catch the ghost with energy..... - Why dont you make just a couple of phoenixes to lift them? - Why dont you just Separate your units? .. separate your HT so the EMP makes less effect? do we terrans only have to separate them? isnt that unfair? - Why dont you just make more zealots to face the terran line? ghosts are not cheap and either we cast them on zealots, or either we cast them on the other army - Why dont you watch white-ra play? He uses Warp prism to save the energy of the HT and move them faster drops.. storm.. and pick them up again - Why dont you use observers to see where the ghosts are, feedback em and then go back? (using warp prism) There are plenty of options.. not only massing a huge ball and A-move..... Come on.. learn to play.. and if you know how to play and still have issues.... then improve your game We terrans learned to manage our play against HT Storms... FF, Colossi that has never got a nerf.. and we still struggle against them... Against Dark Templars... I think they could just have nerfed the range of EMP and Snipe on the Ghost. 8 range on EMP, 9 range on snipe. This would mean that the EMP/Snipe had the same max range as Feedback so the one with better micro wins dude come on When has Terrans struggled against DT's? That is pretty rare. - Storms have gotten nerfed (the removed amulet, so start with no storm) - Colossi have gotten nerfed (less damage, faster attack) - Sentry have gotten nerfed (from 8 to 6 damage) | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
I read comments like "nerf snipe" and then I really really wonder if those people ever look at the terran side. Turn on a terran pro-stream and watch them die hard against broodlord + infestor. | ||
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Caddy
United Kingdom178 Posts
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thenerazim
Norway12 Posts
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ElvisTek
Venezuela169 Posts
Phoenix that needs energy to lift ghosts? Nope my friend, you and me know that phoenix does not have energy bar Good point, although the movement speed of HT, 1.875 is really slow and makes it hard for them to keep up and they clump. Yes that's the hard thing but it's not an impossible task Are you saying that the Protoss player isn't making enough units? Is that even an argument?? Yes and no... but in many games i have seen that a lot of protoss players just make a little of all types of units... instead or organizing it properly... not saying it's your case though. Yeah, this is a very good idea. Thanks.. i think this is the best way to have them protected and helping them to move faster without the risk of an EMP lategame observers are hard to keep alive vs terran due to many available scans, emp that de-cloakes, good point though I have seen this plenty of time... normally because ghost's price is high.. we never have them in the front lines... btw.. dark templars attacking in the rear can help.... just it's gas expensive... Learn to play? That's not an argument, but seriously, comparing an insta-damage spell with 10 range vs a 9 range ticks over 4 second spell? Well not exactly i meant in offensive way the L2P thing.. if you took it that way then i appologize, was not my intention.... besides it was not for you.. just in general.... regarding the spells.... yes, you know that protoss units + Shields have the highest amount of HP in game... and terrans have so few (zergs also)... So casting Storm to terran units is much worse than EMP to protoss units....it's not only the storm damage.. but retreating the units from the storm radius while receiving damage from your ranged unit.. that is terrible terrible damage! Besides... if you use sentries to FF the retreat while Storming.. that is extremely effective... believe me. I think they could just have nerfed the range of EMP and Snipe on the Ghost. 8 range on EMP, 9 range on snipe. This would mean that the EMP/Snipe had the same max range as Feedback so the one with better micro wins Anyways.. as a terran player i do agree with the EMP radius nerf... the same happened to the psy storm so it is fair..... but Snipe should remain untouched... not much snipe it's used against protoss anyways.. you have almost no biological units... Besides.. you have to leave the range of the snipe... remember you have a long range high damage moving / cliff climbing unit... as a terran.. colossi are more terrible than you think... they are awesome... When has Terrans struggled against DT's? That is pretty rare. Long time ago where lots of protoss used to DT rush.. or used to attack with DT the base while the main army attacked... early on.. terrans use Mules and you'll hardly see any turret built. - Storms have gotten nerfed (the removed amulet, so start with no storm) Yep... i agreed with that. as i agree with the snipe.. - Colossi have gotten nerfed (less damage, faster attack) It's still mighty powerful... - Sentry have gotten nerfed (from 8 to 6 damage) Do not underestimate the sentry... such a powerful unit | ||
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neek
Netherlands51 Posts
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ilovelings
Argentina776 Posts
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On October 27 2011 01:20 ElvisTek wrote: Nope my friend, you and me know that phoenix does not have energy bar Stopped reading here. Jesus, I cannot believe posters don't look up these simple facts for themselves before they post. Are you on a phone? That would be the only excuse I can think of for not looking this up before you wrote it. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Phoenix Check that before you make weird assertions like what you wrote. Even if Phoenix Graviton Beam was on cooldown, suggesting lifting Ghosts from a ball of Marines (where they inevitably will be) with PHOENIX, the unit which is weakest to Marines, is bloody stupid. Sure, it might work sometimes if your opponent is unprepared, doesn't realise you have Phoenix and/or can't keep their Ghosts with the rest of their army because they're in Silver league, but calling this a solution to EMP is just plain ignorant. | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On October 27 2011 00:53 testthewest wrote: I wonder why they didn't adjust the costs due to their value. Weapons is the best upgrade hands down. It affects the whole army (nobody builds toss air for more than cheese or gimick strats) all the time. Armor und shields just cover a part of the hp-pool (shields+actual hp). Shields can regenerate, so be potential of multiple use (blinksstalkers/archons), armor comes mostly ontop of a basearmor, thus making an upgrade advantage over the opponent even stronger (exapmle: x/1/0 stalker can take 42 zergling hits w/o dying, a x/0/1 stalker can only take 39 zergling hits). So rebalancing to make them more equal would be something likethis: weapons: 150/225/300 armor: 75/125/200 shields: 100/175/250 Except shields affect EVERYTHING. +1 ground attack affects ground units, there are separate upgrades for air attack and armour. +1 shield affects both air and ground units, so even if it was twice the cost of armour, it's like getting +1 ground armour and +1 air armour. Shield also affects buildings, so it's also like the equivalent of terran building armour. Just because you perceive it as the weakest upgrade doesn't mean it is. If you are going chargelot/archon, then having cheap shield upgrades is very beneficial for archons, and it helps you back at home when considering possible zergling counterattacks. It also impacts protoss structures against things like mutalisk harass, where you knock off a decent chunk of damage. Someone did a breakdown of +armour vs +weapons, and armour is beneficial in many situations. We even had a period where people going mass gateway would get fast +armour over +weapons because it was more beneficial. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=200517 This data shows that against terran armies with a healthy marine count that the + 1 armor upgrade is more beneficial. The data for ghost is mostly gratuitous seeing as there is rarely a high enough number of them early game to account for a large amount of damage. Against a marauder heavy army it may be more beneficial to get a + attack upgrade but by the time large numbers of marauders are frequent immortals (or colossi) should be present which will 3 shot or overkill them frequently no matter what upgrades are present. And a general upgrade discussion: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187603 Judgement about upgrades is very matchup dependent anyway, having one idea about what is good and bad is silly. +1 attack makes zealots much more effective vs zerglings. having +1 armour makes them much more durable against marines. | ||
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Avan
Brazil121 Posts
On October 27 2011 01:03 Snowbear wrote: The ghost change was: Cost changed from 150/150 to 200/100. +50 minerals, -50 gas. What is the terran problem in tvz and tvp when you don't play mech (and if you play mech vs toss you lose anyways)? MINERALS. You got too much gas in the bank. The ghost change was a nerf imo. I don't mean to be rude, but... Tell that to HerO, who lost to oGsTOP's 1-1-1 into mech (that's what you call a Thor-Banshee-Viking composition, right? Mech Play? Although Siege Tanks were not present). Here's the VOD http://www.gomtv.net/2011wcg/vod/66466 (it begins around 5min). There were about 10 marines total, so I'd call it "Mech". | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
When people do go for Mech, it tends to be a "funky" strat thrown into a BoX or just as a fun build or to metagame their opponent, or more as a characteristic of the player than because they think it's good (see Goody). Because of this, people assume that Mech is bad vs Protoss, and come up with their own reasons to try and prove this to themselves (Chargelots too good, VRs too good, yaddayaddayadda). Mech is fully unexplored and has potential. Guys, don't dismiss it. | ||
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testthewest
Germany274 Posts
On October 27 2011 00:56 ZeromuS wrote: I would get +3 armour vs Terran so fast with those changes completely ignoring attack and instead getting a lot of zealots. Like a lot of zealots and win many many engagements thanks to the +3 armour. All chrono on that and slowly spend gas on archons. Thats a ridiculous change you do realise I hope? Well, do so. Armor doesn't kill anything. As soon as terran has stim and medivacs, zealots are fodder. Fodder meant to last until the dps department did their job. Your colossi with no weapon upgrades are just not the same as 3 weapon upgraded colossi. So your zealots last a bit longer, but your damage output loss will be more severe. Remember, losing dps is terrible, since like armor upgrades it scales inversly (reason: Medivacs) | ||
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Grndr101
Belgium125 Posts
I'm not trolling here, but I feel that now a lot of protoss who aren't that good will have a much higher win rate aganst terran just amoving their army. Obviously it's different when you get to masters and higher because the skill level allows for that much APM and good ghost control. But in the lower leagues this will wreak havoc to the PvT win rate, as very little micro is involved(from either side) and without emps protoss is just better composition-wise. It's far from UP, but imo this will discourage a lot of terrans who are just casual players as they just won't be able to stand up to protoss in a macro game. | ||
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testthewest
Germany274 Posts
[QUOTE]On October 27 2011 00:53 testthewest wrote: I wonder why they didn't adjust the costs due to their value. Weapons is the best upgrade hands down. It affects the whole army (nobody builds toss air for more than cheese or gimick strats) all the time. Armor und shields just cover a part of the hp-pool (shields+actual hp). Shields can regenerate, so be potential of multiple use (blinksstalkers/archons), armor comes mostly ontop of a basearmor, thus making an upgrade advantage over the opponent even stronger (exapmle: x/1/0 stalker can take 42 zergling hits w/o dying, a x/0/1 stalker can only take 39 zergling hits). So rebalancing to make them more equal would be something likethis: weapons: 150/225/300 armor: 75/125/200 shields: 100/175/250[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]On October 27 2011 01:32 Lonyo wrote: Except shields affect EVERYTHING.[/QUOTE] sadly everything it doesn't matter . It matters how long your tanks survive (zealots). If you kill my army and have still a 50 food army in my base, nobody cares about build armor. Furthermore, shields affect everything only to a certain point. Builds only half, most units less than half. [QUOTE]On October 27 2011 01:32 Lonyo wrote: +1 ground attack affects ground units, there are separate upgrades for air attack and armour. +1 shield affects both air and ground units, so even if it was twice the cost of armour, it's like getting +1 ground armour and +1 air armour. Shield also affects buildings, so it's also like the equivalent of terran building armour.[/QUOTE] But the game revolves around ground units (and mutalisks). Toss air is as I said a joke and most certainly not meant to tank hits. Therefore armor covers all important units. While attack matters for air units, you'll almost never build so much air, to make them worthwhile. Now what wins brings toss wins? Colossi! They thrive on attack upgrades. Blink-stalkers! Same! Archons! Also in dire need of attack upgrades (to one-shot armorupgraded zerglings i.e.) [QUOTE]On October 27 2011 01:32 Lonyo wrote: Just because you perceive it as the weakest upgrade doesn't mean it is. If you are going chargelot/archon, then having cheap shield upgrades is very beneficial for archons, and it helps you back at home when considering possible zergling counterattacks. It also impacts protoss structures against things like mutalisk harass, where you knock off a decent chunk of damage.[/QUOTE] Of course not. But since most pro's see it the same way. | ||
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dolvlo
United States99 Posts
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