|
On October 26 2011 11:20 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:18 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 11:05 sjschmidt93 wrote:
"Terran's not OP -- Koreans T's are just good"
"Terran is OP -- foreigner T's just suck."
Seem to be the main two stances ... but really it's impossible to know which is true off of statistics which is why you have gameplay analysis. Well as far as mechanical skill, other than maybe fOrGG who is relatively new to the game, I would say that Mvp is the best player; and guess what, he wins... A LOT (NesTea still could have beaten him at Blizzcon though haha). Plus, he and the SlayerS house seem to be constantly innovating, coming up with a plethora of strategies, while MC is still using the exact same 6 Gate Timings and 3 Gate Void Ray he won a GSL with who knows how long ago. Korean Terrans are ridiculously good and they have consistently found new ways to represent themselves through innovative styles that have been seen never before. I think that that proves the statement: "Terran's not OP -- Korean T's are just good." Now let's examine the second statement, as I think it's important to also disprove your counter-argument.  SeleCT: I always thought of SeleCT as a pretty-good-nothing-that-special Terran. Then I watched this match: MLG NA Invitation: SeleCT vs HuK on Tal'Darim Altar. SeleCT's micro was so godly, it looked better than some S Class Koreans. Then, SeleCT's more recent tournament run at Blizzcon reassured me that his micro actually is beyond human. It's pretty damn ridiculous, I'd recommend his games against Dimaga if you really need examples. That is a player who is really, really good. SeleCT won the MLG Invitational, but the competition at that tournament was pretty far from fierce. IdrA lost in ZvZ, Sheth played alright, but lost in 3-3 in the finals, only taking the first of a necessary two Bo3s, HuK was going through a stressful time, ect.). Then you have players like ThorZaIN, Strelok, MajOr; but you never see them winning big tournaments, and rarely do you even see them come close (though ThorZaIN vs  DRG at DH was pretty awesome). Protoss has nothing to innovate with if they must expand to hold 1-1-1 and need a robo for detection, people seem to forget that. Im sure if there was some magical way to make a new strategy every other way, protoss would be doing better, but it is a fact that they just dont have anywhere near the flexibility that terran has. Thorzain also won TSL3...
MC led protoss innovation all the way from GSL 3 all the way up to right before his fall in GSL, or slightly after MLG Anaheim. Yes, he still uses those build, but because they're effective and his control makes them extremely powerful, not because he has not come up with other things.
|
|
|
Honestly, the shield change has been a long time coming. I know it affects everything the Protoss has, but shields are only ever at most 50% of a unit's total health and usually less. And while they do regenerate, they only do that outside of combat. Bumping them down to reasonable levels is something the Protoss has needed since SC1.
I think the radius change on EMP is reasonable, considering the cost of Ghosts and the power of the spell vs. Protoss. At the same time, it might have been just as reasonable to make it high-tech research. On the plus side, Terrans will have to be stronger on their micro to properly blanket a late-game Protoss army.
I'm a bit less sure about the changes to ground attack and ground armor. Those belong more on flying attack/armor than ground. Protoss always gets these, so it's not like they're too cheap or something. Encouraging the use of flying units by lowering their research cost wouldn't be a bad idea.
|
Well, after this patch it seems I'm going to all in every Protoss I play. If I can barely win a normal game now, after this patch I'm doomed.
|
On October 26 2011 11:22 The Final Boss wrote:
Now, for all the people talking about "Name a good Korean Protoss" or "Name a good Foreign Terran," I want everybody to try and name something for me. A Macro-Oriented Korean Protoss.
As far as Terrans go, you have players like TOP, TheStC, or Jjakji who consistently go for macro games. I can't think of a Korean Protoss player who looks for macro games often times in PvT, as they usually wind up doing some sort of timing attack, whether it is 1, 2, and very rarely 3 bases. The problem isn't lack of skill, but lack of depth in the play. Korean Protoss players are constantly aggressive--or, at the very least they are overly predictable.
Puzzle, and he got rolled pretty much every single time in PvT everytime due to EMP lategame. MC as well, after his GSL March win, and had alot of success against against Terran, with Puma and Bomber.
|
On October 26 2011 11:23 ImmortalTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:20 Cyro wrote:On October 26 2011 11:18 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 11:05 sjschmidt93 wrote:
"Terran's not OP -- Koreans T's are just good"
"Terran is OP -- foreigner T's just suck."
Seem to be the main two stances ... but really it's impossible to know which is true off of statistics which is why you have gameplay analysis. Well as far as mechanical skill, other than maybe fOrGG who is relatively new to the game, I would say that Mvp is the best player; and guess what, he wins... A LOT (NesTea still could have beaten him at Blizzcon though haha). Plus, he and the SlayerS house seem to be constantly innovating, coming up with a plethora of strategies, while MC is still using the exact same 6 Gate Timings and 3 Gate Void Ray he won a GSL with who knows how long ago. Korean Terrans are ridiculously good and they have consistently found new ways to represent themselves through innovative styles that have been seen never before. I think that that proves the statement: "Terran's not OP -- Korean T's are just good." Now let's examine the second statement, as I think it's important to also disprove your counter-argument. SeleCT: I always thought of SeleCT as a pretty-good-nothing-that-special Terran. Then I watched this match: MLG NA Invitation: SeleCT vs HuK on Tal'Darim Altar. SeleCT's micro was so godly, it looked better than some S Class Koreans. Then, SeleCT's more recent tournament run at Blizzcon reassured me that his micro actually is beyond human. It's pretty damn ridiculous, I'd recommend his games against Dimaga if you really need examples. That is a player who is really, really good. SeleCT won the MLG Invitational, but the competition at that tournament was pretty far from fierce. IdrA lost in ZvZ, Sheth played alright, but lost in 3-3 in the finals, only taking the first of a necessary two Bo3s, HuK was going through a stressful time, ect.). Then you have players like ThorZaIN, Strelok, MajOr; but you never see them winning big tournaments, and rarely do you even see them come close (though ThorZaIN vs DRG at DH was pretty awesome). Protoss has nothing to innovate with if they must expand to hold 1-1-1 and need a robo for detection, people seem to forget that. Im sure if there was some magical way to make a new strategy every other way, protoss would be doing better, but it is a fact that they just dont have anywhere near the flexibility that terran has. Thorzain also won TSL3... MC led protoss innovation all the way from GSL 3 all the way up to right before his fall in GSL, or slightly after MLG Anaheim. Yes, he still uses those build, but because they're effective and his control makes them extremely powerful, not because he has not come up with other things.
Okay, but regardless of how well you do a certain timing attack, if you know what is coming, you know how to prepare for it, you can often times hold it. PuMa is so good at the 1-1-1 because he ALWAYS walls off at 14 with a supply depot, blocking any Probe scouting. Then, there is no way of telling what he is doing. Players like Mvp or a SlayerS Terran not only bring the mechanical prowess to the table, but they also come up with new strategies, as opposed to the majority of Korean Ps.
|
So basically... T that win show that T is OP.
T that lose are so bad that they can't win even with OP.
Z and P who win are all heroes because they had to beat OP terrans and are much more skilled than the Terrans.
Z and P who lose lost because OP terran.
Statistics and results that agree with my worldview are 100% reliable.
Statistics that don't agree with my worldview don't take into account *insert millions of excuses from small sample size, to volatility, to power level comparing of skill*
|
On October 26 2011 11:20 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:14 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:10 The KY wrote:On October 26 2011 11:07 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:03 petro1987 wrote:On October 26 2011 10:56 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 08:58 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius. Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play. Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well. Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation. MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players. Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans. If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene. Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well. On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals. Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all. My answer to this is. Name me some amazing foreigner terrans. I can think of two. Thorzain and Select. Strelok is solid, but not incredible. Major is good, but I haven't seen him in a big tournament recently due to his lack of team. Muslim also hasn't been a tournament recently. If you look at the top of the International TLPD, how many T's are there (That aren't koreans?)? Like, none. Kas is the only notable European T I can think of off the top of my head, and he hasn't been participating in premier events either. Look at the tournaments and the lineups! There aren't very many foreigner terrans in there to begin with, hence your results. Well this is an easy one. Name me some amazing Korean protoss. MC, Puzzle, Sage, JYP, Huk, Hero (to an extent), Oz... Tell me with a straight face that these guys aren't beastly, POSSIBLY MAYBILY excluding MC... qxc, DeMusliM, MajOr, ThorZain, dde, Artist. I'm pulling from a much smaller pool of players (International vs Korean) and that wasn't that hard.
QXC. Results? Tournament play recently? No can do.
Mentioned muslim, but he only played in IPL 3, where he got knocked out by a beasting ret. I said he may be one of the few.
Mentioned major, No big tournaments lately, can't judge.
Thorzain. Mentioned, said was good. enough said.
DDE. Good, but because we don't have any premier tournament results, I can't say anything, because that's what the Original argument starter was looking at to begin with.
Artist: Lol korean... Even if you consider him foreigner, he got beaten fairly convincingly by Lucky in IPL who's zvt hs never looked incredible. Only thing I know he has to his name is the IPL teamleague allkill. Not bad, but no premier tournament high results.
3 Isn't enough for a whole world besides KR O.o
|
On October 26 2011 11:24 lee365 wrote:
Well, after this patch it seems I'm going to all in every Protoss I play. If I can barely win a normal game now, after this patch I'm doomed.
Watch it, or you'll get our best chance of winning again nerfed. That's what happens to Terrans, all-in to avoid late-game difficulties and you get nerfed. Protoss or Zerg do it, it's just signs that Terran is too powerful late-game.
|
On October 26 2011 11:21 ImmortalTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:19 The KY wrote:On October 26 2011 11:16 The KY wrote:On October 26 2011 11:14 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:10 The KY wrote:On October 26 2011 11:07 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:03 petro1987 wrote:On October 26 2011 10:56 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 08:58 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius. Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play. Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well. Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation. MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players. Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans. If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene. Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well. On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals. Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all. My answer to this is. Name me some amazing foreigner terrans. I can think of two. Thorzain and Select. Strelok is solid, but not incredible. Major is good, but I haven't seen him in a big tournament recently due to his lack of team. Muslim also hasn't been a tournament recently. If you look at the top of the International TLPD, how many T's are there (That aren't koreans?)? Like, none. Kas is the only notable European T I can think of off the top of my head, and he hasn't been participating in premier events either. Look at the tournaments and the lineups! There aren't very many foreigner terrans in there to begin with, hence your results. Well this is an easy one. Name me some amazing Korean protoss. MC, Puzzle, Sage, JYP, Huk, Hero (to an extent), Oz... Tell me with a straight face that these guys aren't beastly, POSSIBLY MAYBILY excluding MC... MC sure, Puzzle overhyped, Sage almost certainly overhyped (I do like him though :3) JYP fucking awful PvT, Huk awesome, Hero not yet, Oz yeah. Most of these guys are new blood making their way to Code S now or already in it. They are a sign the protoss is on the comeback. Ok so I should clarify, the point I was making was that if you're going to apply the standard of 'there just aren't many good foreigners playing terran' then you have to use it both ways. If it just so happens that more good foreigners pick P/Z, then I guess it just so happens that more good Koreans pick T, right? The point, basically, is that it's a flawed argument. I don't believe that Korean T players are just better. There are more of them, though. Problem is, we can't actually tell, since almost no foreign terran's are participating in premier tournaments, so we have no basis to judge them on, and so we must assume their skill level is lower if they don't want to participate in these tournaments...
First of all, that's flawed reasoning because of obvious variables like cost and time to fly out (hence why most Koreans don't care to be bothered to steal *all* of our tournament money, although plenty of Korean Terrans already have).
Secondly, I don't even understand why this argument is even taking place. Saying that Protoss and Zerg foreigners are stronger than Terran foreigners may or may not be true (pretty sure it's wrong, as the data shows it's wrong) but it's completely irrelevant anyway. They aren't the top tier players.
The Koreans are. And the Korean Terrans are (and have been) raping every Zerg and Protoss's face for a countless period of time. Just a month or two ago, the TvP win percentage was 70%! And Korea >>> Foreigner scene. Maybe a few foreigners (looking at no more than ten for sure) can hang with the Koreans in some serious tournaments and BoX sets. So who the heck really cares about whether or not someone thinks Terran is weak in America or Europe? If Terran is kicking ass when the gods are playing all three match-ups, it's pretty clear that the foreigners are doing something wrong.
|
On October 26 2011 11:28 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:23 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:20 Cyro wrote:On October 26 2011 11:18 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 11:05 sjschmidt93 wrote:
"Terran's not OP -- Koreans T's are just good"
"Terran is OP -- foreigner T's just suck."
Seem to be the main two stances ... but really it's impossible to know which is true off of statistics which is why you have gameplay analysis. Well as far as mechanical skill, other than maybe fOrGG who is relatively new to the game, I would say that Mvp is the best player; and guess what, he wins... A LOT (NesTea still could have beaten him at Blizzcon though haha). Plus, he and the SlayerS house seem to be constantly innovating, coming up with a plethora of strategies, while MC is still using the exact same 6 Gate Timings and 3 Gate Void Ray he won a GSL with who knows how long ago. Korean Terrans are ridiculously good and they have consistently found new ways to represent themselves through innovative styles that have been seen never before. I think that that proves the statement: "Terran's not OP -- Korean T's are just good." Now let's examine the second statement, as I think it's important to also disprove your counter-argument. SeleCT: I always thought of SeleCT as a pretty-good-nothing-that-special Terran. Then I watched this match: MLG NA Invitation: SeleCT vs HuK on Tal'Darim Altar. SeleCT's micro was so godly, it looked better than some S Class Koreans. Then, SeleCT's more recent tournament run at Blizzcon reassured me that his micro actually is beyond human. It's pretty damn ridiculous, I'd recommend his games against Dimaga if you really need examples. That is a player who is really, really good. SeleCT won the MLG Invitational, but the competition at that tournament was pretty far from fierce. IdrA lost in ZvZ, Sheth played alright, but lost in 3-3 in the finals, only taking the first of a necessary two Bo3s, HuK was going through a stressful time, ect.). Then you have players like ThorZaIN, Strelok, MajOr; but you never see them winning big tournaments, and rarely do you even see them come close (though ThorZaIN vs DRG at DH was pretty awesome). Protoss has nothing to innovate with if they must expand to hold 1-1-1 and need a robo for detection, people seem to forget that. Im sure if there was some magical way to make a new strategy every other way, protoss would be doing better, but it is a fact that they just dont have anywhere near the flexibility that terran has. Thorzain also won TSL3... MC led protoss innovation all the way from GSL 3 all the way up to right before his fall in GSL, or slightly after MLG Anaheim. Yes, he still uses those build, but because they're effective and his control makes them extremely powerful, not because he has not come up with other things. Okay, but regardless of how well you do a certain timing attack, if you know what is coming, you know how to prepare for it, you can often times hold it. PuMa is so good at the 1-1-1 because he ALWAYS walls off at 14 with a supply depot, blocking any Probe scouting. Then, there is no way of telling what he is doing. Players like Mvp or a SlayerS Terran not only bring the mechanical prowess to the table, but they also come up with new strategies, as opposed to the majority of Korean Ps.
What ways do P have to deny scouting like that? The Korean P's I agree aren't the most innovative, but MC is/was, and you can't discredit that.
|
On October 26 2011 11:25 ImmortalTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:22 The Final Boss wrote:
Now, for all the people talking about "Name a good Korean Protoss" or "Name a good Foreign Terran," I want everybody to try and name something for me. A Macro-Oriented Korean Protoss.
As far as Terrans go, you have players like TOP, TheStC, or Jjakji who consistently go for macro games. I can't think of a Korean Protoss player who looks for macro games often times in PvT, as they usually wind up doing some sort of timing attack, whether it is 1, 2, and very rarely 3 bases. The problem isn't lack of skill, but lack of depth in the play. Korean Protoss players are constantly aggressive--or, at the very least they are overly predictable. Puzzle, and he got rolled pretty much every single time in PvT everytime due to EMP lategame. MC as well, after his GSL March win, and had alot of success against against Terran, with Puma and Bomber.
MC does Timing attacks in almost every game he plays. He is far from a Macro-Protoss. And Puzzle's PvT has never really impressed me. Maybe it's because he beat MMA with Dark Templar back in Code A and still almost managed to lose those games due to poor control and macro, but I just don't think he really understands the match-ups that well.
But regardless, congrats on naming a single Korean Macro Protoss.
|
On October 26 2011 11:28 windsupernova wrote:
So basically... T that win show that T is OP.
T that lose are so bad that they can't win even with OP.
Z and P who win are all heroes because they had to beat OP terrans and are much more skilled than the Terrans.
Z and P who lose lost because OP terran.
Statistics and results that agree with my worldview are 100% reliable.
Statistics that don't agree with my worldview don't take into account *insert millions of excuses from small sample size, to volatility, to power level comparing of skill*
You got that right. That's the exact reasoning (if one could actually call that reasoning at all) of many peopleI see around.
|
I think this is going to go past 'solving PvT' if you ask me.. cheapening upgrades AND nerfing EMP seems way overkill to me. It's also going to ruin low level play in PvT completely lol.
Should be interesting what makes it out of this PTR and what doesn't.
|
On October 26 2011 11:14 ImmortalTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:10 The KY wrote:On October 26 2011 11:07 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:03 petro1987 wrote:On October 26 2011 10:56 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 08:58 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius. Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play. Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well. Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation. MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players. Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans. If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene. Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well. On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals. Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all. My answer to this is. Name me some amazing foreigner terrans. I can think of two. Thorzain and Select. Strelok is solid, but not incredible. Major is good, but I haven't seen him in a big tournament recently due to his lack of team. Muslim also hasn't been a tournament recently. If you look at the top of the International TLPD, how many T's are there (That aren't koreans?)? Like, none. Kas is the only notable European T I can think of off the top of my head, and he hasn't been participating in premier events either. Look at the tournaments and the lineups! There aren't very many foreigner terrans in there to begin with, hence your results. Well this is an easy one. Name me some amazing Korean protoss. MC, Puzzle, Sage, JYP, Huk, Hero (to an extent), Oz... Tell me with a straight face that these guys aren't beastly, POSSIBLY MAYBILY excluding MC...
But are they better/eqaul than/too Bomber, MVP, MKP, MMA, Ganzi etc?
Either way it's ridiclous to argue that terran is weak in the foreign scene because there is no good foreign terrans meanwhile you argue that protoss is up because they are doing bad in the korean scene. What you have to argue to make any sense in that protoss would be UP is that the foreign scene doesn't matter at all and only GSL does. Then again I'd like to point out that the GSL moves so slowly (due to it being so hard to get kicked out of Code S) that it doesn't give a good picture of the current balance.
Something I don't think people give enough credit in regards to Korean balance is the korean weekly, as the korean who doesn't go to foreign events doesn't have a lot of tournaments to attend to it seems to be kind of popular. Even more so for all the code B players of course, since the code A spot was added.
If we look at the last finals, http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ESV_TV_Korean_Weekly/Finals_3 it doesn't really look like terrans are op to me. Only 3 terrans even qualifing, which of two of them where Code S. Then 2 of them making it to ro8 and none to ro4. Comparing that to the pre 1.4 patch korean weekly 2 (where terran was obviously very strong) there was 8 (out of the 16) in the finals that where terran.
|
On October 26 2011 11:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:21 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:19 The KY wrote:On October 26 2011 11:16 The KY wrote:On October 26 2011 11:14 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:10 The KY wrote:On October 26 2011 11:07 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:03 petro1987 wrote:On October 26 2011 10:56 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 08:58 VirgilSC2 wrote:
[quote]
This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius.
Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play. Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well. Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation. MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players. Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans. If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene. Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well. On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals. Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all. My answer to this is. Name me some amazing foreigner terrans. I can think of two. Thorzain and Select. Strelok is solid, but not incredible. Major is good, but I haven't seen him in a big tournament recently due to his lack of team. Muslim also hasn't been a tournament recently. If you look at the top of the International TLPD, how many T's are there (That aren't koreans?)? Like, none. Kas is the only notable European T I can think of off the top of my head, and he hasn't been participating in premier events either. Look at the tournaments and the lineups! There aren't very many foreigner terrans in there to begin with, hence your results. Well this is an easy one. Name me some amazing Korean protoss. MC, Puzzle, Sage, JYP, Huk, Hero (to an extent), Oz... Tell me with a straight face that these guys aren't beastly, POSSIBLY MAYBILY excluding MC... MC sure, Puzzle overhyped, Sage almost certainly overhyped (I do like him though :3) JYP fucking awful PvT, Huk awesome, Hero not yet, Oz yeah. Most of these guys are new blood making their way to Code S now or already in it. They are a sign the protoss is on the comeback. Ok so I should clarify, the point I was making was that if you're going to apply the standard of 'there just aren't many good foreigners playing terran' then you have to use it both ways. If it just so happens that more good foreigners pick P/Z, then I guess it just so happens that more good Koreans pick T, right? The point, basically, is that it's a flawed argument. I don't believe that Korean T players are just better. There are more of them, though. Problem is, we can't actually tell, since almost no foreign terran's are participating in premier tournaments, so we have no basis to judge them on, and so we must assume their skill level is lower if they don't want to participate in these tournaments... First of all, that's flawed reasoning because of obvious variables like cost and time to fly out (hence why most Koreans don't care to be bothered to steal *all* of our tournament money). Secondly, I don't even understand why this argument is even taking place. Saying that Protoss and Zerg foreigners are stronger than Terran foreigners may or may not be true (pretty sure it's wrong, as the data shows it's wrong) but it's completely irrelevant anyway. They aren't the top tier players. The Koreans are. And the Korean Terrans are (and have been) raping every Zerg and Protoss's face for a countless period of time. Just a month or two ago, the TvP win percentage was 70%! And Korea >>> Foreigner scene. Maybe a few foreigners (looking at no more than ten for sure) can hang with the Koreans in some serious tournaments and BoX sets. So who the heck really cares about whether or not someone thinks Terran is weak in America or Europe? If Terran is kicking ass when the gods are playing all three match-ups, it's pretty clear that the foreigners are doing something wrong.
Exactly what I'm saying, but i'm not understanding why you disagree with my analysis of Foreign terrans. Even if they don't have the resources to fly everywhere, why can the rest of the players FROM THE SAME TEAMS fly out? Even moreover, why aren't they dominating the shit outta the bigger online tournaments? MLG invitational was won by a T I acknowledged was good. Where's everyone else?
|
On October 26 2011 11:30 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:25 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:22 The Final Boss wrote:
Now, for all the people talking about "Name a good Korean Protoss" or "Name a good Foreign Terran," I want everybody to try and name something for me. A Macro-Oriented Korean Protoss.
As far as Terrans go, you have players like TOP, TheStC, or Jjakji who consistently go for macro games. I can't think of a Korean Protoss player who looks for macro games often times in PvT, as they usually wind up doing some sort of timing attack, whether it is 1, 2, and very rarely 3 bases. The problem isn't lack of skill, but lack of depth in the play. Korean Protoss players are constantly aggressive--or, at the very least they are overly predictable. Puzzle, and he got rolled pretty much every single time in PvT everytime due to EMP lategame. MC as well, after his GSL March win, and had alot of success against against Terran, with Puma and Bomber. MC does Timing attacks in almost every game he plays. He is far from a Macro-Protoss. And Puzzle's PvT has never really impressed me. Maybe it's because he beat MMA with Dark Templar back in Code A and still almost managed to lose those games due to poor control and macro, but I just don't think he really understands the match-ups that well. But regardless, congrats on naming a single Korean Macro Protoss.
Ever stopped to think about why a toss would be trying to end a PvT quickly? Maybe because the radius of EMP is too big...
|
I dont know man... i play terran and my hardest matchup is TvP im ranked 6 on my plat division on the NA server, and at my level is a very hard matchup because of the amount of micro involved on kiting and the rather low effort it takes to use a protoss death ball (im very sure i could use protoss at gold level, but i wouldnt be sure unless i switched), i mean, you got to worry to have enough warp gates, keep your zealots on the front, use guardian shield and try to cut off about 1/3 of the Terran bio ball, focus fire vikings, and maybe land one or 2 good placed storms, (well i dont consider this to be much compared to kitting and emp'ing while dealing with terran macro). Now that i think about it the hardest thing is to be able to regroup properly given toss can restore most of its army on site via warp in, usually if i dont crush the toss he can pretty much move in and kill me.
I dont really like the upgrade changes on the ptr, yet i have to test them, but i think this only really benefits timing attacks and makes even easier to get an upgrade lead as protoss because of chronoboost, now kiting will be even more important for terran and so will be to get attacks upgrades for the infantry.
The emp nerf... well it was quite powerfull, but i think this will make dealing with infestors even harder, we will have to rely even more heavily on tanks to avoid getting our marines fungaled, and the doomsday infestor-broodlord or infestor-ultralisk and the tech switches between them will be even harder to deal with as infestors take care of most of our counters quite easily, specially vikings. guess we will need to rely on mass ghosts, until they nerf snipe lol
|
I think we can safely assume that direct changes to the bunkers will no longer happen in WoL.
|
On October 26 2011 11:32 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:30 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 11:25 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:22 The Final Boss wrote:
Now, for all the people talking about "Name a good Korean Protoss" or "Name a good Foreign Terran," I want everybody to try and name something for me. A Macro-Oriented Korean Protoss.
As far as Terrans go, you have players like TOP, TheStC, or Jjakji who consistently go for macro games. I can't think of a Korean Protoss player who looks for macro games often times in PvT, as they usually wind up doing some sort of timing attack, whether it is 1, 2, and very rarely 3 bases. The problem isn't lack of skill, but lack of depth in the play. Korean Protoss players are constantly aggressive--or, at the very least they are overly predictable. Puzzle, and he got rolled pretty much every single time in PvT everytime due to EMP lategame. MC as well, after his GSL March win, and had alot of success against against Terran, with Puma and Bomber. MC does Timing attacks in almost every game he plays. He is far from a Macro-Protoss. And Puzzle's PvT has never really impressed me. Maybe it's because he beat MMA with Dark Templar back in Code A and still almost managed to lose those games due to poor control and macro, but I just don't think he really understands the match-ups that well. But regardless, congrats on naming a single Korean Macro Protoss. Ever stopped to think about why a toss would be trying to end a PvT quickly? Maybe because the radius of EMP is too big...
That's a ridiculous analysis. HasuObs does great PvT late game and he goes for High Templar armies consistently (and as far as Macro-Ps go, Hasu is what I think of).
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
