On October 26 2011 10:50 Tarot wrote: Oh damn. That means they almost cut the area of EMP by half. Seems like a little overkill.
On October 26 2011 10:47 malaan wrote: tested the EMP changes on the PTR, I dont think folks realize how big a .5 change is. The EMP barely covers 3 units now, whereas before you could hit 6.
It's only a little larger hex than the supply depot as someone posted. This means you will need about 3 more emps to carpet a full sized army.
Thank the lord I switched to protoss in 1.3 xD!
On October 26 2011 10:45 Zariel wrote: About the change on Ghosts.
The EMP radius reduction was to nerf the effectiveness of the early EMP builds that many, many terrans have adapted recently on ladder.
With a 2 radius, you could EMP about 6 stalkers if clumped, now you probably can hit 3-4. Big difference when it's an early game fight
On October 26 2011 10:43 SolidMoose wrote: Wow I just got on PTR. Emp is the size of a supply depot.
On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius.
Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play.
Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well.
Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation.
MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players.
Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans.
If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene.
Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well.
On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:
On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells.
How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals.
Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all.
My answer to this is. Name me some amazing foreigner terrans. I can think of two. Thorzain and Select. Strelok is solid, but not incredible. Major is good, but I haven't seen him in a big tournament recently due to his lack of team. Muslim also hasn't been a tournament recently. If you look at the top of the International TLPD, how many T's are there (That aren't koreans?)? Like, none. Kas is the only notable European T I can think of off the top of my head, and he hasn't been participating in premier events either. Look at the tournaments and the lineups! There aren't very many foreigner terrans in there to begin with, hence your results.
On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius.
Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play.
Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well.
Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation.
MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players.
Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans.
If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene.
Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well.
On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:
On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells.
How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals.
Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all.
...Aren't HuK and Naniwa practicing in Korea?
Maybe that's why they're playing well. They're also really really good.
I don't think Thorzain is in Korea, but he's a beast regardless.
For the record, if you're going to point to like... two people and claim that they represent an entire race doing well, then maybe you should re-think your approach. How many players are actually joining these tournaments from each race, and how many actually make it to the end?
And finally... you can't name many amazing foreigner Terrans? I can name fewer amazing Korean Protoss lol. I guess I win
On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius.
Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play.
Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well.
Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation.
MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players.
Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans.
If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene.
Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well.
On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:
On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells.
How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals.
Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all.
My answer to this is. Name me some amazing foreigner terrans. I can think of two. Thorzain and Select. Strelok is solid, but not incredible. Major is good, but I haven't seen him in a big tournament recently due to his lack of team. Muslim also hasn't been a tournament recently. If you look at the top of the International TLPD, how many T's are there (That aren't koreans?)? Like, none. Kas is the only notable European T I can think of off the top of my head, and he hasn't been participating in premier events either. Look at the tournaments and the lineups! There aren't very many foreigner terrans in there to begin with, hence your results.
I havnt seen this guy in a tournament i think, but dont count EU terrans out just yet -
As a Zerg player, I really don't like this change at all. Now Protoss upgrades cost the same as Zerg upgrades, but with Chrono Boost, they can finish them much faster. The fact that they have to upgrade shields is moot VS Zerg for two reasons: Zerg has to upgrade two different forms of attack upgrades, and shield armor isn't as important VS Zerg.
Heck, I don't even like the EMP nerf. I think a better way would have been to make the ghost cost 200 gas (why a spellcaster with the most utility is also the cheapest in terms of gas is beyond me...), make EMP researchable and/or have an increased energy cost, or simply move it to the Raven.
This is great! I think Protoss play needs to revolve more around the inherent advantage we have in the upgrade department speed-wise, and this is a fantastic incentive for players to do so.
Well done blizzard, this is a great stride in the right direction for PvT and I believe that the Proscene will benefit proportionally.
On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius.
Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play.
Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well.
Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation.
MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players.
Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans.
If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene.
Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well.
On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:
On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells.
How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals.
Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all.
My answer to this is. Name me some amazing foreigner terrans. I can think of two. Thorzain and Select. Strelok is solid, but not incredible. Major is good, but I haven't seen him in a big tournament recently due to his lack of team. Muslim also hasn't been a tournament recently. If you look at the top of the International TLPD, how many T's are there (That aren't koreans?)? Like, none. Kas is the only notable European T I can think of off the top of my head, and he hasn't been participating in premier events either. Look at the tournaments and the lineups! There aren't very many foreigner terrans in there to begin with, hence your results.
I think the cheaper upgrade thing is a little weird. Protoss has Chronoboost so they already can get upgrades so fast. This was one of the main advantages they had in the TvP matchup. I don't see why making it any cheaper makes any sense. I guess they always get the upgrades, so this just means their army will be bigger... That's a pretty clever way to fix things.
On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius.
Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play.
Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well.
Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation.
MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players.
Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans.
If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene.
Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well.
On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:
On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells.
How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals.
Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all.
My answer to this is. Name me some amazing foreigner terrans. I can think of two. Thorzain and Select. Strelok is solid, but not incredible. Major is good, but I haven't seen him in a big tournament recently due to his lack of team. Muslim also hasn't been a tournament recently. If you look at the top of the International TLPD, how many T's are there (That aren't koreans?)? Like, none. Kas is the only notable European T I can think of off the top of my head, and he hasn't been participating in premier events either. Look at the tournaments and the lineups! There aren't very many foreigner terrans in there to begin with, hence your results.
MLG Orlando. TLO is the only pool foreigner terran.
IEM New York. Sjow (who is slumping hard), Edge, Strelok, and Pokebunny. Not favorites against DRG LOL.
IPL3. Muslim (knocked out by a pretty beasting ZvT (beat Alive 2-1 as well) ret first round), Kawaii (LOL)
On October 26 2011 11:10 HungShark wrote: As a Zerg player, I really don't like this change at all. Now Protoss upgrades cost the same as Zerg upgrades, but with Chrono Boost, they can finish them much faster. The fact that they have to upgrade shields is moot VS Zerg for two reasons: Zerg has to upgrade two different forms of attack upgrades, and shield armor isn't as important VS Zerg.
Heck, I don't even like the EMP nerf. I think a better way would have been to make the ghost cost 200 gas (why a spellcaster with the most utility is also the cheapest in terms of gas is beyond me...), make EMP researchable and/or have an increased energy cost, or simply move it to the Raven.
Ghosts are actuly very mineral intensive, in most games where they are used there is a mineral bottleneck, see IMMVP vs Darkforce geforce finals, where MVP had 50 ghosts and over 5k gas banked at the stalemate at the end
Don't know why so many people are pissing all over the new proposed EMP size. Didn't seem to bother anyone that storm is and has been the exact same size.
On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius.
Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play.
Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well.
Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation.
MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players.
Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans.
If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene.
Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well.
On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:
On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells.
How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals.
Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all.
My answer to this is. Name me some amazing foreigner terrans. I can think of two. Thorzain and Select. Strelok is solid, but not incredible. Major is good, but I haven't seen him in a big tournament recently due to his lack of team. Muslim also hasn't been a tournament recently. If you look at the top of the International TLPD, how many T's are there (That aren't koreans?)? Like, none. Kas is the only notable European T I can think of off the top of my head, and he hasn't been participating in premier events either. Look at the tournaments and the lineups! There aren't very many foreigner terrans in there to begin with, hence your results.
On October 26 2011 11:05 sjschmidt93 wrote: "Terran's not OP -- Koreans T's are just good"
"Terran is OP -- foreigner T's just suck."
Seem to be the main two stances ... but really it's impossible to know which is true off of statistics which is why you have gameplay analysis.
I guess it goes beyonds that. It seems to me that the problem is about the design of the races. Here you have T that benefits the most from great micro and multitasking capabilities. And there you have P that benefits the last from the aforementioned things. How can Blizzard actually balance this situation in all ladder levels?
Diamond-Master Terrans struggle because at this level they just can't multitask and micro well enough to make their armies have enough efficiency. At Pro level (I'm just considering Korea for now), the Terrans are actually fast enough to multitask and have a great micro and make their armies have enough efficiency. There is no easy way to balance this. Blizzard actually needed to cut some easy 1A units from Protoss and put units that the Pros can actually profit from.
On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius.
Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play.
Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well.
Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation.
MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players.
Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans.
If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene.
Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well.
On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:
On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells.
How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals.
Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all.
My answer to this is. Name me some amazing foreigner terrans. I can think of two. Thorzain and Select. Strelok is solid, but not incredible. Major is good, but I haven't seen him in a big tournament recently due to his lack of team. Muslim also hasn't been a tournament recently. If you look at the top of the International TLPD, how many T's are there (That aren't koreans?)? Like, none. Kas is the only notable European T I can think of off the top of my head, and he hasn't been participating in premier events either. Look at the tournaments and the lineups! There aren't very many foreigner terrans in there to begin with, hence your results.
On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius.
Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play.
Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well.
Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation.
MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players.
Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans.
If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene.
Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well.
On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:
On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells.
How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals.
Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all.
My answer to this is. Name me some amazing foreigner terrans. I can think of two. Thorzain and Select. Strelok is solid, but not incredible. Major is good, but I haven't seen him in a big tournament recently due to his lack of team. Muslim also hasn't been a tournament recently. If you look at the top of the International TLPD, how many T's are there (That aren't koreans?)? Like, none. Kas is the only notable European T I can think of off the top of my head, and he hasn't been participating in premier events either. Look at the tournaments and the lineups! There aren't very many foreigner terrans in there to begin with, hence your results.
Well this is an easy one.
Name me some amazing Korean protoss.
MC, Puzzle, Sage, JYP, Huk, Hero (to an extent), Oz... Tell me with a straight face that these guys aren't beastly, POSSIBLY MAYBILY excluding MC...
On October 26 2011 10:46 CaptainCrush wrote: I love how everyone assumes that just because toss has a poor representation in GSL, then they are automatically underpowered.... you are talking about guys who play all day, every day, and have a natural talent for that sort of thing. The top 1% of players, or likely even less, is not a good spot to judge balance on....
Are you serious? This post is hilarious.
Balancing has to be made to the highest level of gameplay. The GSL players are the players who show the weaknesses of each race and any imbalances that exist.
Balancing around GSL is still ridicoulus right now though, as the GSL has a system which makes changes in balance show really slowly.
Personally I'd rather look at the last three really big tournaments that didn't suffer from such issues as the GSL was won by one of each race. (MLG- toss ipl3-zerg blizzcon-terran). Emp change was fine though, shields too, the armor/weapons ones are ridiclous though.
On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius.
Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play.
Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well.
Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation.
MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players.
Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans.
If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene.
Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well.
On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:
On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells.
How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals.
Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all.
My answer to this is. Name me some amazing foreigner terrans. I can think of two. Thorzain and Select. Strelok is solid, but not incredible. Major is good, but I haven't seen him in a big tournament recently due to his lack of team. Muslim also hasn't been a tournament recently. If you look at the top of the International TLPD, how many T's are there (That aren't koreans?)? Like, none. Kas is the only notable European T I can think of off the top of my head, and he hasn't been participating in premier events either. Look at the tournaments and the lineups! There aren't very many foreigner terrans in there to begin with, hence your results.
EPT
