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On October 26 2011 11:10 HungShark wrote:
As a Zerg player, I really don't like this change at all. Now Protoss upgrades cost the same as Zerg upgrades, but with Chrono Boost, they can finish them much faster. The fact that they have to upgrade shields is moot VS Zerg for two reasons: Zerg has to upgrade two different forms of attack upgrades, and shield armor isn't as important VS Zerg.
Heck, I don't even like the EMP nerf. I think a better way would have been to make the ghost cost 200 gas (why a spellcaster with the most utility is also the cheapest in terms of gas is beyond me...), make EMP researchable and/or have an increased energy cost, or simply move it to the Raven.
You do know that the cost change to the ghost was actually a nerf for the terrans?
Most Terrans bank gas in endgame situations. Prior to the cost change (1.3 i think, maybe even 1.2) They dumped that amount of Gas into ghosts.
Against both Zerg and protoss more barracks are never wrong, so surplus minerals are put into more racks, but Gas? you don't need more than 10 medivacs and rauders, marines, vikings are all mineral heavy.
They could have moved the Emp to the Raven, but then they might as well scrap the Ghost entirely against protoss. Snipe is cool if you have progamer micro, but anything below masters doesn't have the micro to chain snipe moving units (broodlords being the exception, even bronze level players can't miss those).
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
On October 26 2011 11:14 Theovide wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:02 AusBox wrote:On October 26 2011 10:46 CaptainCrush wrote:
I love how everyone assumes that just because toss has a poor representation in GSL, then they are automatically underpowered.... you are talking about guys who play all day, every day, and have a natural talent for that sort of thing. The top 1% of players, or likely even less, is not a good spot to judge balance on.... Are you serious? This post is hilarious. Balancing has to be made to the highest level of gameplay. The GSL players are the players who show the weaknesses of each race and any imbalances that exist. Balancing around GSL is still ridicoulus right now though, as the GSL has a system which makes changes in balance show really slowly. Personally I'd rather look at the last three really big tournaments that didn't suffer from such issues as the GSL was won by one of each race. (MLG- toss ipl3-zerg blizzcon-terran). Emp change was fine though, shields too, the armor/weapons ones are ridiclous though.
If you balance around GSL, you can just look at winrates after the patches.
Representation doesnt affect winrates.
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On October 26 2011 10:54 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:52 Deltablazy wrote:On October 26 2011 10:48 SourceOdin wrote:On October 26 2011 10:46 CaptainCrush wrote:
I love how everyone assumes that just because toss has a poor representation in GSL, then they are automatically underpowered.... you are talking about guys who play all day, every day, and have a natural talent for that sort of thing. The top 1% of players, or likely even less, is not a good spot to judge balance on.... Aren't the reasons you just listed why we should be using the top 1% as the level to balance the game at? They're playing the game at the highest level, and thus, are giving the closest representation of what the game balance is. Protoss poor GSL representation is the cause of Terran's 1/1/1 all-ins, not EMP owning late game battles. In fact, during blizzcon, a survey was showed about how Protoss players had an easier time holding off 1/1/1 all-ins thanks to the immortal range buff. This nerf is unnecesary. i'm sure you know better than every protoss pro railing against the ghost but.....tonnes of pros are blaming the ghost for their losses. the problem really lies in the strength of the marine/marauder composition (and how weak gateway units are by comparison) but ghosts just make it actually unwinnable supposing both players micro properly.
Gateway units have to be weak though because they can be warped in anywhere at any time if you've got a prism or a pylon up. Imagine for a sec if Terran could scan and do a mass orbital drop of barracks units on the spot. It'd be ridiculous, because barracks are really good. Blizzard messed up when designing Protoss because they created a system where because of their extreme ability to be anywhere at any time, Gateway units had to be shitty compared to Terran and Zerg units of the same tech tier because T and Z would never win a game against P otherwise. Instead of doing all this silly stuff like reducing upgrade costs and nerfing EMP and nerfing warp gate research time as a sort of roundabout attempt at a fix, I wish Blizz would just get to the root of the problem and either ditch warp-in or make it so that a unit can only be warped into a power field connected to the building it's being created from. Then they could justify making Gateway units straight up better than Barracks units like they were in BW, and reduce Protoss mobility to a level that actually might make mech/biomech styles viable (gasp) in the matchup.
And before someone tells me I should go play BW, that's pretty much what I've been doing. I'm tired of TvP being a bunch of boring all-ins from either me or the Protoss player, or macro games becoming entirely dependent on whether my viking count is high enough or my EMPs good enough. I want to play an interesting game, not just smash my blob of units into another and see who can blanket who with spells faster. It's a damn shame because TvZ is a hell of a lot of fun in SC2 and TvT still can be, although it was better pre-blue flame nerf. I've been effectively inactive on 1v1 ladder for some time now because I hit a lot of Protoss and it makes me want to leave instantly when the game starts because I know it's going to suck, win or lose.
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On October 26 2011 11:14 ImmortalTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:10 The KY wrote:On October 26 2011 11:07 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:03 petro1987 wrote:On October 26 2011 10:56 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 08:58 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius. Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play. Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well. Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation. MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players. Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans. If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene. Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well. On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals. Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all. My answer to this is. Name me some amazing foreigner terrans. I can think of two. Thorzain and Select. Strelok is solid, but not incredible. Major is good, but I haven't seen him in a big tournament recently due to his lack of team. Muslim also hasn't been a tournament recently. If you look at the top of the International TLPD, how many T's are there (That aren't koreans?)? Like, none. Kas is the only notable European T I can think of off the top of my head, and he hasn't been participating in premier events either. Look at the tournaments and the lineups! There aren't very many foreigner terrans in there to begin with, hence your results. Well this is an easy one. Name me some amazing Korean protoss. MC, Puzzle, Sage, JYP, Huk, Hero (to an extent), Oz... Tell me with a straight face that these guys aren't beastly, POSSIBLY MAYBILY excluding MC...
MC sure, Puzzle overhyped, Sage almost certainly overhyped (I do like him though :3) JYP fucking awful PvT, Huk awesome, Hero not yet, Oz yeah.
Most of these guys are new blood making their way to Code S now or already in it. They are a sign the protoss is on the comeback.
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On October 26 2011 10:56 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 08:58 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius. Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play. Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well. Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation. MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players. Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans. If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene. Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well. Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals.
Pretty thought out post that uses evidence and no gut feelings. Congrats man. I am one of those people in the camp of "its not as bad " and pretty much sums up some of my feeling. People really overdramatize stuff .
game balance is not as simple as we think. I am not taking sides in this debate, but its disgusting seeing such terrible hyperboles being thrown around every time a balance discussion comes out.
But... as I said in my earlier post in this topic, I do like the changes made. Not because OP or UP, I feel that they will make the game feel more right(of course that is my opinion)
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
On October 26 2011 11:16 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:14 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:10 The KY wrote:On October 26 2011 11:07 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:03 petro1987 wrote:On October 26 2011 10:56 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 08:58 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius. Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play. Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well. Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation. MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players. Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans. If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene. Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well. On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals. Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all. My answer to this is. Name me some amazing foreigner terrans. I can think of two. Thorzain and Select. Strelok is solid, but not incredible. Major is good, but I haven't seen him in a big tournament recently due to his lack of team. Muslim also hasn't been a tournament recently. If you look at the top of the International TLPD, how many T's are there (That aren't koreans?)? Like, none. Kas is the only notable European T I can think of off the top of my head, and he hasn't been participating in premier events either. Look at the tournaments and the lineups! There aren't very many foreigner terrans in there to begin with, hence your results. Well this is an easy one. Name me some amazing Korean protoss. MC, Puzzle, Sage, JYP, Huk, Hero (to an extent), Oz... Tell me with a straight face that these guys aren't beastly, POSSIBLY MAYBILY excluding MC... MC sure, Puzzle overhyped, Sage almost certainly overhyped (I do like him though :3) JYP fucking awful PvT, Huk awesome, Hero not yet, Oz yeah. Most of these guys are new blood making their way to Code S now or already in it. They are a sign the protoss is on the comeback.
SaSe is doing really well with a unique pvp expand build, tearing up korean GM pvp, and he beat nestea yesterday
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On October 26 2011 11:14 Theovide wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:02 AusBox wrote:On October 26 2011 10:46 CaptainCrush wrote:
I love how everyone assumes that just because toss has a poor representation in GSL, then they are automatically underpowered.... you are talking about guys who play all day, every day, and have a natural talent for that sort of thing. The top 1% of players, or likely even less, is not a good spot to judge balance on.... Are you serious? This post is hilarious. Balancing has to be made to the highest level of gameplay. The GSL players are the players who show the weaknesses of each race and any imbalances that exist. Balancing around GSL is still ridicoulus right now though, as the GSL has a system which makes changes in balance show really slowly. Personally I'd rather look at the last three really big tournaments that didn't suffer from such issues as the GSL was won by one of each race. (MLG- toss ipl3-zerg blizzcon-terran). Emp change was fine though, shields too, the armor/weapons ones are ridiclous though.
Um... A tad unneccessary? Possibly... Ridiculous?? ... Dude, overall if you get 3/3, its 175/175 overall Oh one more HT and zeal. Scary as hell....
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On October 26 2011 11:05 sjschmidt93 wrote:
"Terran's not OP -- Koreans T's are just good"
"Terran is OP -- foreigner T's just suck."
Seem to be the main two stances ... but really it's impossible to know which is true off of statistics which is why you have gameplay analysis.
Well as far as mechanical skill, other than maybe fOrGG who is relatively new to the game, I would say that Mvp is the best player; and guess what, he wins... A LOT (NesTea still could have beaten him at Blizzcon though haha). Plus, he and the SlayerS house seem to be constantly innovating, coming up with a plethora of strategies, while MC is still using the exact same 6 Gate Timings and 3 Gate Void Ray he won a GSL with who knows how long ago. Korean Terrans are ridiculously good and they have consistently found new ways to represent themselves through innovative styles that have been seen never before. I think that that proves the statement: "Terran's not OP -- Korean T's are just good."
Now let's examine the second statement, as I think it's important to also disprove your counter-argument.
 SeleCT: I always thought of SeleCT as a pretty-good-nothing-that-special Terran. Then I watched this match: MLG NA Invitation: SeleCT vs HuK on Tal'Darim Altar. SeleCT's micro was so godly, it looked better than some S Class Koreans. Then, SeleCT's more recent tournament run at Blizzcon reassured me that his micro actually is beyond human. It's pretty damn ridiculous, I'd recommend his games against Dimaga if you really need examples. That is a player who is really, really good. SeleCT won the MLG Invitational, but the competition at that tournament was pretty far from fierce. IdrA lost in ZvZ, Sheth played alright, but lost in 3-3 in the finals, only taking the first of a necessary two Bo3s, HuK was going through a stressful time, ect.).
Then you have players like ThorZaIN, Strelok, MajOr; but you never see them winning big tournaments, and rarely do you even see them come close (though ThorZaIN vs  DRG at DH was pretty awesome).
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I like these changes, Protoss needed the buff and this ghost nerf is a long time coming.
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On October 26 2011 11:07 ImmortalTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:03 petro1987 wrote:On October 26 2011 10:56 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 08:58 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius. Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play. Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well. Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation. MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players. Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans. If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene. Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well. On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals. Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all. My answer to this is. Name me some amazing foreigner terrans. I can think of two. Thorzain and Select. Strelok is solid, but not incredible. Major is good, but I haven't seen him in a big tournament recently due to his lack of team. Muslim also hasn't been a tournament recently. If you look at the top of the International TLPD, how many T's are there (That aren't koreans?)? Like, none. Kas is the only notable European T I can think of off the top of my head, and he hasn't been participating in premier events either. Oh, and Sjow superslumping. Look at the tournaments and the lineups! There aren't very many foreigner terrans in there to begin with, hence your results.
I gotta laugh at your answer. So basically your answer is every single foreigner T sucks, while the Z and P are amazing. Isn't that what people say about GSL? Korean T are better than Korean Z and P?
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On October 26 2011 11:16 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:14 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:10 The KY wrote:On October 26 2011 11:07 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:03 petro1987 wrote:On October 26 2011 10:56 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 08:58 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius. Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play. Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well. Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation. MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players. Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans. If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene. Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well. On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals. Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all. My answer to this is. Name me some amazing foreigner terrans. I can think of two. Thorzain and Select. Strelok is solid, but not incredible. Major is good, but I haven't seen him in a big tournament recently due to his lack of team. Muslim also hasn't been a tournament recently. If you look at the top of the International TLPD, how many T's are there (That aren't koreans?)? Like, none. Kas is the only notable European T I can think of off the top of my head, and he hasn't been participating in premier events either. Look at the tournaments and the lineups! There aren't very many foreigner terrans in there to begin with, hence your results. Well this is an easy one. Name me some amazing Korean protoss. MC, Puzzle, Sage, JYP, Huk, Hero (to an extent), Oz... Tell me with a straight face that these guys aren't beastly, POSSIBLY MAYBILY excluding MC... MC sure, Puzzle overhyped, Sage almost certainly overhyped (I do like him though :3) JYP fucking awful PvT, Huk awesome, Hero not yet, Oz yeah. Most of these guys are new blood making their way to Code S now or already in it. They are a sign the protoss is on the comeback.
Ok so I should clarify, the point I was making was that if you're going to apply the standard of 'there just aren't many good foreigners playing terran' then you have to use it both ways. If it just so happens that more good foreigners pick P/Z, then I guess it just so happens that more good Koreans pick T, right?
The point, basically, is that it's a flawed argument. I don't believe that Korean T players are just better.
There are more of them, though.
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still waiting for snipe cooldown, but I wouldn't kick these changes out of bed
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On October 26 2011 10:56 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 08:58 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius. Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play. Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well. Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation. MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players. Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans. If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene. Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well. Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals.
This is exactly what I tell people that use foreign Terrans as a claim towards balance:
They aren't the best their race has to offer. MVP, MMA, Bomber, Polt, the list goes on. Korean Terrans are the ones that represent Terran, not NA/EU players.
Zergs are mixed. You have some solid NA players like Idra and Sheth, some good EU Zergs like Stephano Nerchio Ret, and then some Koreans such as Nestea, DRG, and Losira.
Foreign Terrans need to step their game up. When everyone thought Protoss was imba (around the time of Summer DH) Protoss was dominating everything. Why? Because there were little to no Koreans.
From DH, I remember Naniwa, Socke, Sase, and White Ra winning their groups. Then a week or 2 later, HSC3 had Protoss domination again. Socke, White Ra, and Naniwa domianted their groups. As the bracket was narrowed down, we had a PvP WFs, LFs, and GFs.
Now that you see Koreans going to foreign tournaments (MMA, Bomber, and MVP all won an MLG) you see what the epitome of Terran is.
Can you site some examples of Protoss doing well with top tier Koreans being in the same tournament? I know Huk won mlg, but White Ra took 32nd and Naniwa wasn't even there.
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On October 26 2011 11:14 ImmortalTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:10 The KY wrote:On October 26 2011 11:07 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:03 petro1987 wrote:On October 26 2011 10:56 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 08:58 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius. Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play. Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well. Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation. MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players. Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans. If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene. Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well. On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals. Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all. My answer to this is. Name me some amazing foreigner terrans. I can think of two. Thorzain and Select. Strelok is solid, but not incredible. Major is good, but I haven't seen him in a big tournament recently due to his lack of team. Muslim also hasn't been a tournament recently. If you look at the top of the International TLPD, how many T's are there (That aren't koreans?)? Like, none. Kas is the only notable European T I can think of off the top of my head, and he hasn't been participating in premier events either. Look at the tournaments and the lineups! There aren't very many foreigner terrans in there to begin with, hence your results. Well this is an easy one. Name me some amazing Korean protoss. MC, Puzzle, Sage, JYP, Huk, Hero (to an extent), Oz... Tell me with a straight face that these guys aren't beastly, POSSIBLY MAYBILY excluding MC...
qxc, DeMusliM, MajOr, ThorZain, dde, Artist.
I'm pulling from a much smaller pool of players (International vs Korean) and that wasn't that hard.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
On October 26 2011 11:18 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:05 sjschmidt93 wrote:
"Terran's not OP -- Koreans T's are just good"
"Terran is OP -- foreigner T's just suck."
Seem to be the main two stances ... but really it's impossible to know which is true off of statistics which is why you have gameplay analysis. Well as far as mechanical skill, other than maybe fOrGG who is relatively new to the game, I would say that Mvp is the best player; and guess what, he wins... A LOT (NesTea still could have beaten him at Blizzcon though haha). Plus, he and the SlayerS house seem to be constantly innovating, coming up with a plethora of strategies, while MC is still using the exact same 6 Gate Timings and 3 Gate Void Ray he won a GSL with who knows how long ago. Korean Terrans are ridiculously good and they have consistently found new ways to represent themselves through innovative styles that have been seen never before. I think that that proves the statement: "Terran's not OP -- Korean T's are just good." Now let's examine the second statement, as I think it's important to also disprove your counter-argument. SeleCT: I always thought of SeleCT as a pretty-good-nothing-that-special Terran. Then I watched this match: MLG NA Invitation: SeleCT vs HuK on Tal'Darim Altar. SeleCT's micro was so godly, it looked better than some S Class Koreans. Then, SeleCT's more recent tournament run at Blizzcon reassured me that his micro actually is beyond human. It's pretty damn ridiculous, I'd recommend his games against Dimaga if you really need examples. That is a player who is really, really good. SeleCT won the MLG Invitational, but the competition at that tournament was pretty far from fierce. IdrA lost in ZvZ, Sheth played alright, but lost in 3-3 in the finals, only taking the first of a necessary two Bo3s, HuK was going through a stressful time, ect.). Then you have players like ThorZaIN, Strelok, MajOr; but you never see them winning big tournaments, and rarely do you even see them come close (though ThorZaIN vs DRG at DH was pretty awesome).
Protoss has nothing to innovate with if they must expand to hold 1-1-1 and need a robo for detection, people seem to forget that.
Im sure if there was some magical way to make a new strategy every other way, protoss would be doing better, but it is a fact that they just dont have anywhere near the flexibility that terran has.
Thorzain also won TSL3...
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On October 26 2011 11:17 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:16 The KY wrote:On October 26 2011 11:14 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:10 The KY wrote:On October 26 2011 11:07 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:03 petro1987 wrote:On October 26 2011 10:56 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 08:58 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius. Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play. Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well. Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation. MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players. Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans. If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene. Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well. On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals. Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all. My answer to this is. Name me some amazing foreigner terrans. I can think of two. Thorzain and Select. Strelok is solid, but not incredible. Major is good, but I haven't seen him in a big tournament recently due to his lack of team. Muslim also hasn't been a tournament recently. If you look at the top of the International TLPD, how many T's are there (That aren't koreans?)? Like, none. Kas is the only notable European T I can think of off the top of my head, and he hasn't been participating in premier events either. Look at the tournaments and the lineups! There aren't very many foreigner terrans in there to begin with, hence your results. Well this is an easy one. Name me some amazing Korean protoss. MC, Puzzle, Sage, JYP, Huk, Hero (to an extent), Oz... Tell me with a straight face that these guys aren't beastly, POSSIBLY MAYBILY excluding MC... MC sure, Puzzle overhyped, Sage almost certainly overhyped (I do like him though :3) JYP fucking awful PvT, Huk awesome, Hero not yet, Oz yeah. Most of these guys are new blood making their way to Code S now or already in it. They are a sign the protoss is on the comeback. SaSe is doing really well with a unique pvp expand build, tearing up korean GM pvp, and he beat nestea yesterday
Ok stop telling me protoss players I already know, I was being rhetorical x)
See previous post.
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On October 26 2011 11:19 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:16 The KY wrote:On October 26 2011 11:14 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:10 The KY wrote:On October 26 2011 11:07 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:03 petro1987 wrote:On October 26 2011 10:56 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 08:58 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius. Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play. Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well. Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation. MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players. Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans. If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene. Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well. On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals. Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all. My answer to this is. Name me some amazing foreigner terrans. I can think of two. Thorzain and Select. Strelok is solid, but not incredible. Major is good, but I haven't seen him in a big tournament recently due to his lack of team. Muslim also hasn't been a tournament recently. If you look at the top of the International TLPD, how many T's are there (That aren't koreans?)? Like, none. Kas is the only notable European T I can think of off the top of my head, and he hasn't been participating in premier events either. Look at the tournaments and the lineups! There aren't very many foreigner terrans in there to begin with, hence your results. Well this is an easy one. Name me some amazing Korean protoss. MC, Puzzle, Sage, JYP, Huk, Hero (to an extent), Oz... Tell me with a straight face that these guys aren't beastly, POSSIBLY MAYBILY excluding MC... MC sure, Puzzle overhyped, Sage almost certainly overhyped (I do like him though :3) JYP fucking awful PvT, Huk awesome, Hero not yet, Oz yeah. Most of these guys are new blood making their way to Code S now or already in it. They are a sign the protoss is on the comeback. Ok so I should clarify, the point I was making was that if you're going to apply the standard of 'there just aren't many good foreigners playing terran' then you have to use it both ways. If it just so happens that more good foreigners pick P/Z, then I guess it just so happens that more good Koreans pick T, right? The point, basically, is that it's a flawed argument. I don't believe that Korean T players are just better. There are more of them, though.
Problem is, we can't actually tell, since almost no foreign terran's are participating in premier tournaments, so we have no basis to judge them on, and so we must assume their skill level is lower if they don't want to participate in these tournaments...
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On October 26 2011 10:46 CaptainCrush wrote:
I love how everyone assumes that just because toss has a poor representation in GSL, then they are automatically underpowered.... you are talking about guys who play all day, every day, and have a natural talent for that sort of thing. The top 1% of players, or likely even less, is not a good spot to judge balance on....
My worst matchup is BY FAR TvP, these buffs are literally going to drop my win percentage against toss to 10% or less.... terrans cant keep up with the upgrades as it is. Lame....
Hey man your personal TvP weakness is not reflective of mainstream statistics in ALL regions. Blizzard felt like these changes were reasonable enough to put them on a PTR... thats as far as it has gone. I think based on the nature of the changes it is pretty easy to tell that blizzard feels toss is slightly underpowered, but are are afraid to overtune them... so they are chipping away in some areas they think will maintain balance and perhaps improve the protoss situation in regions and levels of play where they are struggling most.
I mean when was the last time a low level game was decided by the handful of minerals the protoss will now be saving in the mid-late game? When was the last time a lower level game was decided by the margin of those few seconds the protoss took to mine that extra money in the mid-game? When was the last time a lower level player used EMP perfectly... ever?
These are changes that will will impact lower level players far less than masters level and higher players. I think the approach is brilliant to buff a race only at certain levels of play and thats exactly what theyre doing. The EMP thing is just a plain old attempt to rebalance a unit that probably needs it.. blizzard certainly thinks so. Sorry if the truth hurts, but these changes will not have much impact on you personally.
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Now, for all the people talking about "Name a good Korean Protoss" or "Name a good Foreign Terran," I want everybody to try and name something for me. A Macro-Oriented Korean Protoss.
As far as Terrans go, you have players like TOP, TheStC, or Jjakji who consistently go for macro games. I can't think of a Korean Protoss player who looks for macro games often times in PvT, as they usually wind up doing some sort of timing attack, whether it is 1, 2, and very rarely 3 bases. The problem isn't lack of skill, but lack of depth in the play. Korean Protoss players are constantly aggressive--or, at the very least they are overly predictable.
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EMP nerf; about time. Can't wait to see how this plays out in PVT
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EPT
