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On October 26 2011 10:46 CaptainCrush wrote:
I love how everyone assumes that just because toss has a poor representation in GSL, then they are automatically underpowered.... you are talking about guys who play all day, every day, and have a natural talent for that sort of thing. The top 1% of players, or likely even less, is not a good spot to judge balance on....
My worst matchup is BY FAR TvP, these buffs are literally going to drop my win percentage against toss to 10% or less.... terrans cant keep up with the upgrades as it is. Lame....
Let's say there was a ranged unit with 10 damage, 100 hp, fires once per second, and moves at 1.1
Now there's a melee unit with 25 damage, 200 hp, attacks once per second, and moves 1.0
You have a 0.2 second margin of error for kiting with the ranged unit at max range
At lowest levels of play. OMG THE MELEE UNIT IS OP.
At middlish levels of play. It's balanced, my ranged units and the melee units trade pretty evenly, although ranged units have to micro more.
At highest levels. OMG THE RANGED UNIT IS OP
Which one should you balance around?
It's like marine splitting. Banelings are retarded strong against early marine attacks until quite high up. When you hit MKP level splitting, marines might be imba against banelings.
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On October 26 2011 10:46 CaptainCrush wrote:
I love how everyone assumes that just because toss has a poor representation in GSL, then they are automatically underpowered.... you are talking about guys who play all day, every day, and have a natural talent for that sort of thing. The top 1% of players, or likely even less, is not a good spot to judge balance on....
My worst matchup is BY FAR TvP, these buffs are literally going to drop my win percentage against toss to 10% or less.... terrans cant keep up with the upgrades as it is. Lame....
You're talking to the wrong crowd. So many Terrans have issues with TvP, but these people will only throw around games in the GSL as stats of balance. You could literally have a 2% Terran representation in every league with the same representation in GSL and most TL would STILL say T needs heavy nerfs.
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Time to switch back into roach festor! :DDD
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On October 26 2011 10:51 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:46 CaptainCrush wrote:
I love how everyone assumes that just because toss has a poor representation in GSL, then they are automatically underpowered.... you are talking about guys who play all day, every day, and have a natural talent for that sort of thing. The top 1% of players, or likely even less, is not a good spot to judge balance on....
My worst matchup is BY FAR TvP, these buffs are literally going to drop my win percentage against toss to 10% or less.... terrans cant keep up with the upgrades as it is. Lame.... The game should always be balanced around the top. If you do that all imbalance at lower levels are just that, lower level players being bad.
Blizzard have stated MANY times that they want the game to be relatively balanced at all levels, but highest priority is at the professional level.
The game would never be able to survive if you can only win one out of every ten games in a certain matchup unless you're at the pro level. Blizzard aren't interested in killing their game simply for esports balance.
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On October 26 2011 08:58 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius. Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play.
Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well.
Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation.
MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players.
Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans.
If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene.
Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well.
On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells.
How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals.
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Alright now all I wanna know is when this patch hits so I can seriously start laddering 
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"Fixed an issue which prevented footprint from being edited in the Footprint Editor."
It's been a long time coming!
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On October 26 2011 10:54 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:52 Deltablazy wrote:On October 26 2011 10:48 SourceOdin wrote:On October 26 2011 10:46 CaptainCrush wrote:
I love how everyone assumes that just because toss has a poor representation in GSL, then they are automatically underpowered.... you are talking about guys who play all day, every day, and have a natural talent for that sort of thing. The top 1% of players, or likely even less, is not a good spot to judge balance on.... Aren't the reasons you just listed why we should be using the top 1% as the level to balance the game at? They're playing the game at the highest level, and thus, are giving the closest representation of what the game balance is. Protoss poor GSL representation is the cause of Terran's 1/1/1 all-ins, not EMP owning late game battles. In fact, during blizzcon, a survey was showed about how Protoss players had an easier time holding off 1/1/1 all-ins thanks to the immortal range buff. This nerf is unnecesary. i'm sure you know better than every protoss pro railing against the ghost but.....tonnes of pros are blaming the ghost for their losses. the problem really lies in the strength of the marine/marauder composition (and how weak gateway units are by comparison) but ghosts just make it actually unwinnable supposing both players micro properly.
i still wonder what that is supposed to mean. Yes during the start of the game gateway units are weaker (some might even say significantly weaker), but during the later stages once charge and blink have been researched (in addition with forge upgrades) Zealots become the best mineral dump in the entire game.
Marines? Die like flies as soon as a colossus looks at them or a storm happens. Zerglings? They evaporate against terran and protoss can easily forcefield them away (or run them into a ball of zealots which should beat them cost for cost).
Zealots are pretty beefy compared to the other straight mineral units, and they do deal damage once they are in meele range.
Stalkers and Sentries are pretty useless in the endgame (well Sentries are spellcasters and their spells are still usefull, but their dps is a joke).
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The reduction in area for the emp is actually huge, it's 9/16th of the original area which makes emp hit approximately half as much as it did before good change, I'm not quite sure what to think about the forge upgrade changes though.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
"Of all the races they pick protoss to get a buff??"
hahaha
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On October 26 2011 10:46 CaptainCrush wrote:
I love how everyone assumes that just because toss has a poor representation in GSL, then they are automatically underpowered.... you are talking about guys who play all day, every day, and have a natural talent for that sort of thing. The top 1% of players, or likely even less, is not a good spot to judge balance on....
Are you serious? This post is hilarious.
Balancing has to be made to the highest level of gameplay. The GSL players are the players who show the weaknesses of each race and any imbalances that exist.
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Meh, I'm still going to have 5~ ghosts and I'm still going to blanket your army.
Glgg!
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On October 26 2011 10:56 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 08:58 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius. Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play. Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well. Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation. MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players. Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans. If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene. Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well. Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals.
Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
On October 26 2011 11:01 Lmui wrote:
The reduction in area for the emp is actually huge, it's 9/16th of the original area which makes emp hit approximately half as much as it did before good change, I'm not quite sure what to think about the forge upgrade changes though.
Yea, its a massive change.
I think this patch will help A LOT, maybe ghost sight range/emp/snipe range has to be reduced by 1 or 2 as well, maybe make them not able to "olololololol snipe" every t2/2.5/3 zerg unit to death so cost effectively and outrange templar so easily, but the upgrade cost is really a massive buff and the radius reduction is more than most people think
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"Terran's not OP -- Koreans T's are just good"
"Terran is OP -- foreigner T's just suck."
Seem to be the main two stances ... but really it's impossible to know which is true off of statistics which is why you have gameplay analysis.
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Cool changes. Looks like Snipe is "okay" according to Blizzard.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
On October 26 2011 11:03 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:56 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 08:58 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius. Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play. Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well. Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation. MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players. Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans. If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene. Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well. On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals. Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all.
With perfect micro and the ability to hit every EMP i beleive PvT would be unwinnable from the protoss side, its kinda ok in eu/us right now, but as people get better at the game, as gsl has shown, protoss falls behind
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On October 26 2011 11:03 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:56 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 08:58 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. This nerf brings EMP's radius in line with the already nerfed Psi Storm radius. Outside of Korea, in the professional scene, Protoss are still having trouble against Terran I don't know what games you're referring to, but the game isn't balanced around mid-tier ladder play. Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well. Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation. MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players. Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans. If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene. Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well. On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals. Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all.
My answer to this is. Name me some amazing foreigner terrans. I can think of two. Thorzain and Select. Strelok is solid, but not incredible. Major is good, but I haven't seen him in a big tournament recently due to his lack of team. Muslim also hasn't been a tournament recently. If you look at the top of the International TLPD, how many T's are there (That aren't koreans?)? Like, none. Kas is the only notable European T I can think of off the top of my head, and he hasn't been participating in premier events either. Oh, and Sjow superslumping. Look at the tournaments and the lineups! There aren't very many foreigner terrans in there to begin with, hence your results.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
On October 26 2011 11:05 sjschmidt93 wrote:
"Terran's not OP -- Koreans T's are just good"
"Terran is OP -- foreigner T's just suck."
Seem to be the main two stances ... but really it's impossible to know which is true off of statistics which is why you have gameplay analysis.
I think its half and half, its hard to judge.
With the skill cap issues, everybody being worse will even win ratios out, as both sides get better if one race is even slightly ahead win ratios will start to climb on his side until eventuly both have infinite skill and thus the very slightly stronger race wins every game
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