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On October 26 2011 11:40 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
I wish foreign Terran players actually knew how to play decently so that way Blizzard can be more serious about balancing PvT. DK doesn't even watch GSL.... so if he's not going to judge balance where people know how to play the game well, then the non-Korean players better start studying how the Koreans play in order to get better and to show Kim the issues that exist.
Yeah sure. Let's just study how to get 350 apm and macro, micro and multitask like there's no tomorrow. Foreigner Terrans have no clue how to play at all. LOL
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On October 26 2011 11:22 The Final Boss wrote:
Now, for all the people talking about "Name a good Korean Protoss" or "Name a good Foreign Terran," I want everybody to try and name something for me. A Macro-Oriented Korean Protoss.
As far as Terrans go, you have players like TOP, TheStC, or Jjakji who consistently go for macro games. I can't think of a Korean Protoss player who looks for macro games often times in PvT, as they usually wind up doing some sort of timing attack, whether it is 1, 2, and very rarely 3 bases. The problem isn't lack of skill, but lack of depth in the play. Korean Protoss players are constantly aggressive--or, at the very least they are overly predictable.
Terran and zerg macro are both superior to protoss macro, so they dont even try it any more.
For a month or so HuK tried very hard to rush 3 base in PvZ for example but zerg took 3 bases, maxed before HuK hit 100 food and a-moved him
The same situation is in PvT with terran being advantaged between mules, pf at third etc, better harassment, it is easier for terran to macro safely than it is for protoss to do so, and thus any protoss trying to macro like that has a disadvantage from the loading screen.
Not fact but that is just how i view that situation.
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Australia45 Posts
On October 26 2011 11:40 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:38 locant wrote:On October 26 2011 11:24 lee365 wrote:
Well, after this patch it seems I'm going to all in every Protoss I play. If I can barely win a normal game now, after this patch I'm doomed. This. I played a tvp yesterday were I was up a base the whole game, up in upgrades, had perfect emp and still got rolled. Im either going to 6 rax, go back to the 1/1/1 or switch to protoss as this is horrible. I feel sorry for zergs now as they were already having a hard time "I did bad so therefore this change sucks" Post a replay or bs. Zergs were having a hard time? NO. Before NP change, Zergs were dominating Protoss to the point that it was a complete joke.
No, this update is not bad because I lost, its bad because while it may " solve a broken match up" it also affect zvp which by all reports is balls atm. I agree with the emp change and shields but ground weapons and amour are fine the way they are.
I play random so this is not terran bias, just my opinion from games I have played
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On October 26 2011 11:31 ImmortalTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 26 2011 11:21 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:19 The KY wrote:On October 26 2011 11:16 The KY wrote:On October 26 2011 11:14 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:10 The KY wrote:On October 26 2011 11:07 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:03 petro1987 wrote:On October 26 2011 10:56 The Final Boss wrote:[quote] Look at major tournaments. Which foreigners are doing well in events including Koreans? PROTOSS. NaNiwa, HuK, White-Ra, ect. all do extremely well in tournaments while foreigner Terrans are struggling to place. The only foreigners who have come even close are players like SeleCT or ThorZaIN, and even then they haven't done as well. Think of it like this: since TSL3 (I use this tournament because I think that it was a pivotal moment for the game and it changed a lot after--due to Blizzard's Thor nerf Terran was basically forced to go bio vs Protoss even though the strategy had been far from tested), there has only been two foreign Terrans win a, Premier Tournament, and both of those tournaments were MLG invitationals. SeleCT's micro in the NA invitational was incredible, and anyone who says that he won because "Terran is imbalanced" or anything like that is ridiculous. Frankly, he completely outplayed HuK pretty badly. Not to mention, HuK (easily the best Protoss at that event) was in really bad shape, from flying around and the fact that he was changing teams, creating a pretty stressful situation. MajOr only played Zergs plus they were LA players, so really there isn't much to him winning that. I think anybody could have predicted MajOr, KiLLeR, CatZ as 1st-3rd place from the very beginning. The other players were pretty awful (it was painful to watch) and those are the only three recognizable names. Then, as far as Zergs and Protoss players go, since TSL3, we have had 10 Zerg or Protoss victories, 4 of which were Protoss players. Then, as far as 2nd place finishes go, there have been 13 foreigners, seven of which were Protoss players, four were Zerg, and two were Terran. If Terran is really "OP," then these numbers should be reversed, no? Obviously these statistics only look at the winners of the biggest tournaments, and a lot of these Premier tournaments were won by Terrans, but almost consistently it is Korean Terrans. If Terran is really "OP," and therefore deserving to be severely nerfed, then why do we have NaNiwa and HuK winning tournaments, while ThorZaIN or Jinro aren't? I mean there's a plethora of factors, but the point I'm making is that outside of Koreans, Terrans are doing pretty terrible on the big scene. Plus, as far as low-mid Tier ladder play goes, I seem to remember Blizzard saying that basically the lower the level of play, the higher win-rates Protoss players had. But personally I don't think that balance should be made for lower levels, but the foreign scene is dominated by Protoss and Zerg players while there's a SeleCT few (haha, very punny) that actually do well. [quote] How is EMP the best of the three spells? EMP has never killed a unit, as opposed to Fungal Growth and Storm which decimate Marine armies--and through balance changes to Tanks, Hellions, and Thors it seems that Blizzard is forcing Terrans to make Marines. It is important, but all it can do against Zerg is take out energy, so unless the Infestors are all clumped up (which they usually are because even at high levels I always see Zergs refusing to split their Infestors) then they should still be able to land a decent number of fungals. Pretty much this. Don't bother thinking people will actually answer to you in this matter. They like to neglect the fact that only Korean Terrans are doing well, while outside Korea the scene is pretty much dominated by Zergs and Protoss. If Terran was actually severily OP as they claim, you would think that such thing wouldn't happen at all. My answer to this is. Name me some amazing foreigner terrans. I can think of two. Thorzain and Select. Strelok is solid, but not incredible. Major is good, but I haven't seen him in a big tournament recently due to his lack of team. Muslim also hasn't been a tournament recently. If you look at the top of the International TLPD, how many T's are there (That aren't koreans?)? Like, none. Kas is the only notable European T I can think of off the top of my head, and he hasn't been participating in premier events either. Look at the tournaments and the lineups! There aren't very many foreigner terrans in there to begin with, hence your results. Well this is an easy one. Name me some amazing Korean protoss. MC, Puzzle, Sage, JYP, Huk, Hero (to an extent), Oz... Tell me with a straight face that these guys aren't beastly, POSSIBLY MAYBILY excluding MC... MC sure, Puzzle overhyped, Sage almost certainly overhyped (I do like him though :3) JYP fucking awful PvT, Huk awesome, Hero not yet, Oz yeah. Most of these guys are new blood making their way to Code S now or already in it. They are a sign the protoss is on the comeback. Ok so I should clarify, the point I was making was that if you're going to apply the standard of 'there just aren't many good foreigners playing terran' then you have to use it both ways. If it just so happens that more good foreigners pick P/Z, then I guess it just so happens that more good Koreans pick T, right? The point, basically, is that it's a flawed argument. I don't believe that Korean T players are just better. There are more of them, though. Problem is, we can't actually tell, since almost no foreign terran's are participating in premier tournaments, so we have no basis to judge them on, and so we must assume their skill level is lower if they don't want to participate in these tournaments... First of all, that's flawed reasoning because of obvious variables like cost and time to fly out (hence why most Koreans don't care to be bothered to steal *all* of our tournament money). Secondly, I don't even understand why this argument is even taking place. Saying that Protoss and Zerg foreigners are stronger than Terran foreigners may or may not be true (pretty sure it's wrong, as the data shows it's wrong) but it's completely irrelevant anyway. They aren't the top tier players. The Koreans are. And the Korean Terrans are (and have been) raping every Zerg and Protoss's face for a countless period of time. Just a month or two ago, the TvP win percentage was 70%! And Korea >>> Foreigner scene. Maybe a few foreigners (looking at no more than ten for sure) can hang with the Koreans in some serious tournaments and BoX sets. So who the heck really cares about whether or not someone thinks Terran is weak in America or Europe? If Terran is kicking ass when the gods are playing all three match-ups, it's pretty clear that the foreigners are doing something wrong. Exactly what I'm saying, but i'm not understanding why you disagree with my analysis of Foreign terrans. Even if they don't have the resources to fly everywhere, why can the rest of the players FROM THE SAME TEAMS fly out? Even moreover, why aren't they dominating the shit outta the bigger online tournaments? MLG invitational was won by a T I acknowledged was good. Where's everyone else?
Well you would have to ask them that question, although I do think that plenty of them play in many tournaments.
Nearly every foreigner is behind the Koreans. This means that there's going to be more variability in the results of foreigner tournaments, because it's more likely for players to make big mistakes.
The Foreigner Terrans aren't as good as the Korean Terrans.
The Foreigner Zergs aren't as good as the Korean Zergs.
The Foreigner Protosses aren't as good as the Korean Protosses.
I think it's analogous to looking at results in gold league as opposed to master league. In gold, you may come across players who lose because they can't macro or micro properly, regardless of any overpowered units their race might have.
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On October 26 2011 11:43 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:38 locant wrote:On October 26 2011 11:24 lee365 wrote:
Well, after this patch it seems I'm going to all in every Protoss I play. If I can barely win a normal game now, after this patch I'm doomed. This. I played a tvp yesterday were I was up a base the whole game, up in upgrades, had perfect emp and still got rolled. Im either going to 6 rax, go back to the 1/1/1 or switch to protoss as this is horrible. I feel sorry for zergs now as they were already having a hard time Besides the fact that your post is hilarious bs, you want to switch from the strongest race to the weakest race? Or are you in Bronze-Silver where Protoss is actually the best?
I'm a High Diamond Terran and to prove my friend wrong I practiced Protoss for a weekend and was able to play +50% winrate on my ladder account for about 15 games or so. Personally I thought it was pretty easy to switch to Protoss, and I barely lost in the late game (which happens to be what this patch is targeting to make easier). If the guy works on it I'm sure that he can play Protoss too without too much difficulty (now Zerg, I don't even want to try playing that, haha).
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I could care less that EMP is worse against infestors...
EMP + SNIPE beats every zerg unit with a good comp...
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On October 26 2011 11:38 locant wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:24 lee365 wrote:
Well, after this patch it seems I'm going to all in every Protoss I play. If I can barely win a normal game now, after this patch I'm doomed. This. I played a tvp yesterday were I was up a base the whole game, up in upgrades, had perfect emp and still got rolled. Im either going to 6 rax, go back to the 1/1/1 or switch to protoss as this is horrible. I feel sorry for zergs now as they were already having a hard time
Dont blame the game for your losses...
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On October 26 2011 11:43 WinteRR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:36 Cloud9157 wrote:On October 26 2011 11:32 Hantak wrote:
I dont know man... i play terran and my hardest matchup is TvP im ranked 6 on my plat division on the NA server, and at my level is a very hard matchup because of the amount of micro involved on kiting and the rather low effort it takes to use a protoss death ball (im very sure i could use protoss at gold level, but i wouldnt be sure unless i switched), i mean, you got to worry to have enough warp gates, keep your zealots on the front, use guardian shield and try to cut off about 1/3 of the Terran bio ball, focus fire vikings, and maybe land one or 2 good placed storms, (well i dont consider this to be much compared to kitting and emp'ing while dealing with terran macro). Now that i think about it the hardest thing is to be able to regroup properly given toss can restore most of its army on site via warp in, usually if i dont crush the toss he can pretty much move in and kill me.
I dont really like the upgrade changes on the ptr, yet i have to test them, but i think this only really benefits timing attacks and makes even easier to get an upgrade lead as protoss because of chronoboost, now kiting will be even more important for terran and so will be to get attacks upgrades for the infantry.
The emp nerf... well it was quite powerfull, but i think this will make dealing with infestors even harder, we will have to rely even more heavily on tanks to avoid getting our marines fungaled, and the doomsday infestor-broodlord or infestor-ultralisk and the tech switches between them will be even harder to deal with as infestors take care of most of our counters quite easily, specially vikings. guess we will need to rely on mass ghosts, until they nerf snipe lol I can just as easily say it requires little effort to press T and stutter step. To deal with Infestors, Snipe them. That's a massive joke right? I think it's pretty safe to assume you haven't experienced TvP at a decent level judging by that terrible/inaccurate assumption akin to a bronze level analysis.
Diamond Protoss bud.
right-click>S repreatedly until you run out of stim or all the Zealots are dead.
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On October 26 2011 11:40 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:38 locant wrote:On October 26 2011 11:24 lee365 wrote:
Well, after this patch it seems I'm going to all in every Protoss I play. If I can barely win a normal game now, after this patch I'm doomed. This. I played a tvp yesterday were I was up a base the whole game, up in upgrades, had perfect emp and still got rolled. Im either going to 6 rax, go back to the 1/1/1 or switch to protoss as this is horrible. I feel sorry for zergs now as they were already having a hard time "I did bad so therefore this change sucks" Post a replay or bs. Zergs were having a hard time? NO. Before NP change, Zergs were dominating Protoss to the point that it was a complete joke.
I too would like to see a replay of this better macro + perfect micro of a terran getting destroyed by a protoss.
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On October 26 2011 11:44 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:40 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
I wish foreign Terran players actually knew how to play decently so that way Blizzard can be more serious about balancing PvT. DK doesn't even watch GSL.... so if he's not going to judge balance where people know how to play the game well, then the non-Korean players better start studying how the Koreans play in order to get better and to show Kim the issues that exist. Yeah sure. Let's just study how to get 150-200 apm and macro, micro and multitask like there's no tomorrow. Foreigner Terrans have no clue how to play at all. LOL
If you're saying foreign Terrans are near the level of Korean Terrans, you have to be trolling. LOL!!!
For certain, you're saying that foreign Terrans shouldn't practice hard to learn how to play the game with just things like better strategy and reaction (which have nothing to do with apm, which they easily have enough for anyways), which is a really silly thing to say. Yeah, pro players shouldn't try to improve. You're silly HAHA!! XD
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People are hugely overrating the upgrade-changes. If you go for 3/3 It's basically one sentry and almost a stalker more at the 15-25 minute mark. You don't get shield upgrades until the lategame anyways and an upgrade that costs as much as a mothership was strange to begin with.
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On October 26 2011 06:30 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
EMP radius reduced by .5 - will that actually change anything seeing as 3/4 ghosts are enough to blanket an army anyway?
Remember the area of the spell is the radius times the radius times Pi (Pi*r^2)
So the change is bigger than it sounds.
Total area of a radius 2 emp is 12.57 + Show Spoiler +
Total area of a radius 1.5 emp is 7.07 + Show Spoiler +
That is a decrease in area of 5.5 + Show Spoiler +
Or a 44% reduction in total area + Show Spoiler +
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On October 26 2011 11:47 locant wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:40 Cloud9157 wrote:On October 26 2011 11:38 locant wrote:On October 26 2011 11:24 lee365 wrote:
Well, after this patch it seems I'm going to all in every Protoss I play. If I can barely win a normal game now, after this patch I'm doomed. This. I played a tvp yesterday were I was up a base the whole game, up in upgrades, had perfect emp and still got rolled. Im either going to 6 rax, go back to the 1/1/1 or switch to protoss as this is horrible. I feel sorry for zergs now as they were already having a hard time "I did bad so therefore this change sucks" Post a replay or bs. Zergs were having a hard time? NO. Before NP change, Zergs were dominating Protoss to the point that it was a complete joke. No, this update is not bad because I lost, its bad because while it may " solve a broken match up" it also affect zvp which by all reports is balls atm. I agree with the emp change and shields but ground weapons and amour are fine the way they are. I play random so this is not terran bias, just my opinion from games I have played
You must be the 4th person to tell me ZvP is shit at the moment.
Zerg was JUST dominating Protoss prior to the NP nerf. Please show me some stats suggesting Protoss is beating Zerg like how it was pre NP nerf.
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I didn't think they'd go through with these changes that quickly. When they mentioned it, it seemed like Dustin Browder was just stating it off hand.
Still quite happy about a very slight general protoss buff though. Even though 3/3/0 still get owned hard by 1/1 terran bio. 
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On October 26 2011 11:37 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:36 iLike413 wrote:On October 26 2011 11:30 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 11:25 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:22 The Final Boss wrote:
Now, for all the people talking about "Name a good Korean Protoss" or "Name a good Foreign Terran," I want everybody to try and name something for me. A Macro-Oriented Korean Protoss.
As far as Terrans go, you have players like TOP, TheStC, or Jjakji who consistently go for macro games. I can't think of a Korean Protoss player who looks for macro games often times in PvT, as they usually wind up doing some sort of timing attack, whether it is 1, 2, and very rarely 3 bases. The problem isn't lack of skill, but lack of depth in the play. Korean Protoss players are constantly aggressive--or, at the very least they are overly predictable. Puzzle, and he got rolled pretty much every single time in PvT everytime due to EMP lategame. MC as well, after his GSL March win, and had alot of success against against Terran, with Puma and Bomber. MC does Timing attacks in almost every game he plays. He is far from a Macro-Protoss. And Puzzle's PvT has never really impressed me. Maybe it's because he beat MMA with Dark Templar back in Code A and still almost managed to lose those games due to poor control and macro, but I just don't think he really understands the match-ups that well. But regardless, congrats on naming a single Korean Macro Protoss. Anyone who says "show me a macro protoss herp derp" doesn't really understand the game.... In late game situations terran has the ability to have a much more massive army than toss because they are running off of almost purely mules.. thats at least 30+ extra supply in army comp. Toss have always relied on timing pushes because they are the weakest macro race... You know, about a year ago people were saying that Terran couldn't compete in the late game and that's why you had BitByBit-type players going all-in game after game after game. EDIT: Also, really late game can't Protoss just build a strong Gateway army in approimately 5 seconds, and then with Chronoboost you can then supercharge all of your Gateways and create an even bigger army in no time at all?
You had BitByBit going all-in and then he got weeded out and we never heard from him again. Yeah Terrans *totally* couldn't keep up with anyone. Or you could look at the Top Four for each GSL
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LOLOLOLOL. So awesome. Protoss fighting!
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On October 26 2011 11:47 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:43 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On October 26 2011 11:38 locant wrote:On October 26 2011 11:24 lee365 wrote:
Well, after this patch it seems I'm going to all in every Protoss I play. If I can barely win a normal game now, after this patch I'm doomed. This. I played a tvp yesterday were I was up a base the whole game, up in upgrades, had perfect emp and still got rolled. Im either going to 6 rax, go back to the 1/1/1 or switch to protoss as this is horrible. I feel sorry for zergs now as they were already having a hard time Besides the fact that your post is hilarious bs, you want to switch from the strongest race to the weakest race? Or are you in Bronze-Silver where Protoss is actually the best? I'm a High Diamond Terran and to prove my friend wrong I practiced Protoss for a weekend and was able to play +50% winrate on my ladder account for about 15 games or so. Personally I thought it was pretty easy to switch to Protoss, and I barely lost in the late game (which happens to be what this patch is targeting to make easier). If the guy works on it I'm sure that he can play Protoss too without too much difficulty (now Zerg, I don't even want to try playing that, haha).
Yo dawg, we heard you and locant like making up bullshit stories. You probably lost every game and nerdraged like crazy. Even if I switch to the master race Terran today, I highly doubt I'd be winning most of my games in Masters league. Please tell your silly stories to little kids that will fall for it.
Sorry, but the stats say that Protoss is by far the weakest race, especially at Masters / GM / pro level, and suffer still in Diamond and Plat. If Protoss was anywhere near as good as you imply, there would be 20 Protoss in Code S, not 20 Terrans.
I'll tell you a story that's actually true. Friend of mine was stuck in Gold as Protoss. Played everyday, couldn't get anywhere. He switches to Zerg, and within 1.5 months, he became Diamond. In another month or 2, he's Masters. And Zerg isn't even as powerful as Terran either. That's just the shitty state of Toss. lol
Making up hilarious myths isn't going to get you laid bud, so I don't see why you try .
User was warned for this post
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On October 26 2011 11:42 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:39 Fig wrote:On October 26 2011 11:37 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 11:36 iLike413 wrote:On October 26 2011 11:30 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 11:25 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:22 The Final Boss wrote:
Now, for all the people talking about "Name a good Korean Protoss" or "Name a good Foreign Terran," I want everybody to try and name something for me. A Macro-Oriented Korean Protoss.
As far as Terrans go, you have players like TOP, TheStC, or Jjakji who consistently go for macro games. I can't think of a Korean Protoss player who looks for macro games often times in PvT, as they usually wind up doing some sort of timing attack, whether it is 1, 2, and very rarely 3 bases. The problem isn't lack of skill, but lack of depth in the play. Korean Protoss players are constantly aggressive--or, at the very least they are overly predictable. Puzzle, and he got rolled pretty much every single time in PvT everytime due to EMP lategame. MC as well, after his GSL March win, and had alot of success against against Terran, with Puma and Bomber. MC does Timing attacks in almost every game he plays. He is far from a Macro-Protoss. And Puzzle's PvT has never really impressed me. Maybe it's because he beat MMA with Dark Templar back in Code A and still almost managed to lose those games due to poor control and macro, but I just don't think he really understands the match-ups that well. But regardless, congrats on naming a single Korean Macro Protoss. Anyone who says "show me a macro protoss herp derp" doesn't really understand the game.... In late game situations terran has the ability to have a much more massive army than toss because they are running off of almost purely mules.. thats at least 30+ extra supply in army comp. Toss have always relied on timing pushes because they are the weakest macro race... You know, about a year ago people were saying that Terran couldn't compete in the late game and that's why you had BitByBit-type players going all-in game after game after game. That's before terrans realized that they had the best spellcaster in the game. Maybe Protoss haven't realized that they, in fact, have the best spellcaster in the game.... I think it's kind of amusing how parallel your argument looks to that of Terran players back in the early days of StarCraft 2. Maybe we'll see more players doing the Warp Prism-High Templar drop play to shield their Templar from EMPs and suddenly the High Templar will be recognized as the best spellcaster.
See the problem with talking about a parallel is that in this case we have a year's worth of info. Whereas people didn't know the game then, people know it much better now. Your argument would work if terrans still hadn't figured out what vikings were, but I hope that they know to make some when the toss is using prisms. But the truth is that a few vikings, which terran wants anyway, and which are the cheapest of the air to air units in the game, make warp prism/HT into a viking snipe instead of a ghost snipe.
I won't say terrans were stupid to not realize the power of the ghost when they had the power of mmm, but they did whine enough before trying the ghost to cause the HT to be nerfed. You are right that the HT might have been more powerful if it still had the amulet, but there is no way that's true now.
Basically toss is a more straightforward race with obviously powerful units and weaker units. Because gateway units are weaker, they were the first race to start using their trump cards, HT/Colo/Voids, and therefore the other races couldn't keep up, so Blizzard nerfed toss HTs and nerfed the crap out of voids (4 times). Then terrans learned they needed more than mmm, and zergs got their more difficult mechanics down and started having more time to micro spellcasters. That's how it went from "TOSS OP" to never seeing toss in the GSL round of 16 anymore.
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EPT
