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On October 26 2011 04:54 PopcornColonel wrote:
I'm gonna have to say ZvT is fine, with regard to mutalisks, because of the insane DPS and mobility of marines paired with medivacs, and the great splash damage and usefulness of thors.
For ZvP, however, mutalisks are a bit too strong, because blink stalkers don't have the DPS to deal with a flock of mutalisks before they escape, and phoenixes are so expensive and utterly useless outside of fighting mutalisks. Also, phoenixes are fairly difficult to micro against mutalisks, which can just a-move.
Are you serious. You realize that phoenixes can attack without even a-moving.... they are the easiest unit to micro in the whole game. And they are faster than mutas.
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On October 26 2011 05:25 worldsnap wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 04:54 PopcornColonel wrote:
I'm gonna have to say ZvT is fine, with regard to mutalisks, because of the insane DPS and mobility of marines paired with medivacs, and the great splash damage and usefulness of thors.
For ZvP, however, mutalisks are a bit too strong, because blink stalkers don't have the DPS to deal with a flock of mutalisks before they escape, and phoenixes are so expensive and utterly useless outside of fighting mutalisks. Also, phoenixes are fairly difficult to micro against mutalisks, which can just a-move. Are you serious. You realize that phoenixes can attack without even a-moving.... they are the easiest unit to micro in the whole game. And they are faster than mutas.
you do realize that at a point phoenixes no longer counter muta right? also that getting 10 muta out is WAY faster then getting 10 phoenixes
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On October 26 2011 05:25 worldsnap wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 04:54 PopcornColonel wrote:
I'm gonna have to say ZvT is fine, with regard to mutalisks, because of the insane DPS and mobility of marines paired with medivacs, and the great splash damage and usefulness of thors.
For ZvP, however, mutalisks are a bit too strong, because blink stalkers don't have the DPS to deal with a flock of mutalisks before they escape, and phoenixes are so expensive and utterly useless outside of fighting mutalisks. Also, phoenixes are fairly difficult to micro against mutalisks, which can just a-move. Are you serious. You realize that phoenixes can attack without even a-moving.... they are the easiest unit to micro in the whole game. And they are faster than mutas.
phoenix's are good against mutas if there are a few to a medium number of mutas, AND if you get them before mutas are on the field, you can't reactively go pheonix.
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On October 26 2011 05:28 Deathmanbob wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 05:25 worldsnap wrote:On October 26 2011 04:54 PopcornColonel wrote:
I'm gonna have to say ZvT is fine, with regard to mutalisks, because of the insane DPS and mobility of marines paired with medivacs, and the great splash damage and usefulness of thors.
For ZvP, however, mutalisks are a bit too strong, because blink stalkers don't have the DPS to deal with a flock of mutalisks before they escape, and phoenixes are so expensive and utterly useless outside of fighting mutalisks. Also, phoenixes are fairly difficult to micro against mutalisks, which can just a-move. Are you serious. You realize that phoenixes can attack without even a-moving.... they are the easiest unit to micro in the whole game. And they are faster than mutas. you do realize that at a point phoenixes no longer counter muta right? also that getting 10 muta out is WAY faster then getting 10 phoenixes
What does that have to do with his statement that "Also, phoenixes are fairly difficult to micro against mutalisks, which can just a-move"? Nothing at all.
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I think a lot of people claiming mutas are OP haven't tried it as a Z. They are very strong, yes, but it's not so simple.
It may *seem* like your stalkers and cannons can't deal with the mutas, but you have to realize how much effort the Z is putting into that muta ball. The mutas eat up almost your entire economy and take tons of your attention to be cost effective.
So, yes, the Z forces you into a defensive posture and you have to pour resources into it, but it's not like everything is swell for the Z. You can't win the game with mutas, you have to push that advantage and actually get something from it, which is harder than it may seem to the outside observer.
Same goes for Terrans... yes I realize it sucks to have to deal with that constant Muta harras, but you gotta understand that feeling of seeing the Terran push come across the map and realizing that you *will* lose your army and hoping that you've done enough econ damage to remake and end up ahead.
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On October 26 2011 05:25 worldsnap wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 04:54 PopcornColonel wrote:
I'm gonna have to say ZvT is fine, with regard to mutalisks, because of the insane DPS and mobility of marines paired with medivacs, and the great splash damage and usefulness of thors.
For ZvP, however, mutalisks are a bit too strong, because blink stalkers don't have the DPS to deal with a flock of mutalisks before they escape, and phoenixes are so expensive and utterly useless outside of fighting mutalisks. Also, phoenixes are fairly difficult to micro against mutalisks, which can just a-move. Are you serious. You realize that phoenixes can attack without even a-moving.... they are the easiest unit to micro in the whole game. And they are faster than mutas.
every unit can attack without even a-moving , troll detected.
phoenix are one of the micro intensivest unit in the game. especially low number phoenix vs. high number of mutas.
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On October 26 2011 05:32 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 05:25 worldsnap wrote:On October 26 2011 04:54 PopcornColonel wrote:
I'm gonna have to say ZvT is fine, with regard to mutalisks, because of the insane DPS and mobility of marines paired with medivacs, and the great splash damage and usefulness of thors.
For ZvP, however, mutalisks are a bit too strong, because blink stalkers don't have the DPS to deal with a flock of mutalisks before they escape, and phoenixes are so expensive and utterly useless outside of fighting mutalisks. Also, phoenixes are fairly difficult to micro against mutalisks, which can just a-move. Are you serious. You realize that phoenixes can attack without even a-moving.... they are the easiest unit to micro in the whole game. And they are faster than mutas. every unit can attack without even a-moving , troll detected. phoenix are one of the micro intensivest unit in the game. especially low number phoenix vs. high number of mutas.
He means that if you move command them they will still attack.... lol. I don't see how you didn't understand that one...
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On October 26 2011 05:25 worldsnap wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 04:54 PopcornColonel wrote:
I'm gonna have to say ZvT is fine, with regard to mutalisks, because of the insane DPS and mobility of marines paired with medivacs, and the great splash damage and usefulness of thors.
For ZvP, however, mutalisks are a bit too strong, because blink stalkers don't have the DPS to deal with a flock of mutalisks before they escape, and phoenixes are so expensive and utterly useless outside of fighting mutalisks. Also, phoenixes are fairly difficult to micro against mutalisks, which can just a-move. Are you serious. You realize that phoenixes can attack without even a-moving.... they are the easiest unit to micro in the whole game. And they are faster than mutas.
this is really incorrect. for phoenixes to be effective against mutas (since there are almost always going to be fewer phoenixes than mutas), the protoss player has to use the superior speed and range of the phoenix to avoid taking muta splash. this involves rapidly changing direction and kiting in between ranges 3 and 4, which isn't necessarily the hardest thing in the world but it does take constant attention (if you move away to build a building or whatever you can easily lose half your phoenixes depending on how many mutas are there).
latency on bnet is also really really unforgiving when doing this, if we had lan play we could probably see perfect phoenix micro but on bnet it just isn't really possible.
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On October 26 2011 05:25 worldsnap wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 04:54 PopcornColonel wrote:
I'm gonna have to say ZvT is fine, with regard to mutalisks, because of the insane DPS and mobility of marines paired with medivacs, and the great splash damage and usefulness of thors.
For ZvP, however, mutalisks are a bit too strong, because blink stalkers don't have the DPS to deal with a flock of mutalisks before they escape, and phoenixes are so expensive and utterly useless outside of fighting mutalisks. Also, phoenixes are fairly difficult to micro against mutalisks, which can just a-move. Are you serious. You realize that phoenixes can attack without even a-moving.... they are the easiest unit to micro in the whole game. And they are faster than mutas.
When was the last time you micro'd 4 phoenixes against a flock of mutas?
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the warhound isnt to further help terran hold off mutas, its to give mech a viable option to counter them.
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On October 26 2011 05:38 PopcornColonel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 05:25 worldsnap wrote:On October 26 2011 04:54 PopcornColonel wrote:
I'm gonna have to say ZvT is fine, with regard to mutalisks, because of the insane DPS and mobility of marines paired with medivacs, and the great splash damage and usefulness of thors.
For ZvP, however, mutalisks are a bit too strong, because blink stalkers don't have the DPS to deal with a flock of mutalisks before they escape, and phoenixes are so expensive and utterly useless outside of fighting mutalisks. Also, phoenixes are fairly difficult to micro against mutalisks, which can just a-move. Are you serious. You realize that phoenixes can attack without even a-moving.... they are the easiest unit to micro in the whole game. And they are faster than mutas. When was the last time you micro'd 4 phoenixes against a flock of mutas?
I guarantee you it's never. Maybe he did it in some custom map where you don't need to macro or something.
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On October 26 2011 05:25 worldsnap wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 04:54 PopcornColonel wrote:
I'm gonna have to say ZvT is fine, with regard to mutalisks, because of the insane DPS and mobility of marines paired with medivacs, and the great splash damage and usefulness of thors.
For ZvP, however, mutalisks are a bit too strong, because blink stalkers don't have the DPS to deal with a flock of mutalisks before they escape, and phoenixes are so expensive and utterly useless outside of fighting mutalisks. Also, phoenixes are fairly difficult to micro against mutalisks, which can just a-move. Are you serious. You realize that phoenixes can attack without even a-moving.... they are the easiest unit to micro in the whole game. And they are faster than mutas.
0_o
Well, this thread has degenerated. We now have a baseless claim that Phoenix are the easiest unit to micro in the whole game - how original.
I'm amazed the thread is still open, actually - this should come under Balance Discussion, and that has it's own thread here.
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On October 26 2011 03:41 Plansix wrote:
I would love a unit that could shoot 1 time and really do some damage to a flock of mutas, which is what I am hoping the tempest will do.
I feel for you if you're having trouble against a particular strategy. I have trouble against all kinds of strategies. But a hard unit counter should be the last resort in terms of game design. Why? Because it turns great swathes of potential strategies into dead ends, limiting the kinds of games we can play and watch.
Consider Colossus in PvZ: four of them turn an even trade of armies into a complete rout - which means all the strategies that don't pre-emptively account for their appearance are out of bounds to Zerg. In fact, they made it so awkward that the Infestor's dps had to be buffed, causing all kinds of knock-on problems.
Counters can be unit-based, tactical or strategic. One viable strategic counter to Mutalisks is to try and kill the Zerg before he can mass them. At the other extreme you've got something like the proposed Tempest, which looks like it might shut them down so hard, in such small numbers, that going mutalisks will suddenly be like going mass hydra. What it sounds like, if those complaining about mutalisks are correct, is that there are insufficient tactical options - and it is these that should be explored or enabled with new units, rather than rendering an entire Zerg strategy permanently worthless.
By way of a counterexample, a tactical option in TvZ to deal with mass mutalisks is to keep your marines at home, possibly with bunkers, while you assess how much the Zerg is committing to mutas and adjust your strategy accordingly (more marines, Thors, turrets etc). Or you can keep sending out drops, forcing the Zerg to stop pestering your base and deal with them.
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On October 26 2011 05:51 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 03:41 Plansix wrote:
I would love a unit that could shoot 1 time and really do some damage to a flock of mutas, which is what I am hoping the tempest will do. I feel for you if you're having trouble against a particular strategy. I have trouble against all kinds of strategies. But a hard unit counter should be the last resort in terms of game design. Why? Because it turns great swathes of potential strategies into dead ends, limiting the kinds of games we can play and watch. Consider Colossus in PvZ: four of them turn an even trade of armies into a complete rout - which means all the strategies that don't pre-emptively account for their appearance are out of bounds to Zerg. In fact, they made it so awkward that the Infestor's dps had to be buffed, causing all kinds of knock-on problems. Counters can be unit-based, tactical or strategic. One viable strategic counter to Mutalisks is to try and kill the Zerg before he can mass them. At the other extreme you've got something like the proposed Tempest, which looks like it might shut them down so hard, in such small numbers, that going mutalisks will suddenly be like going mass hydra. What it sounds like, if those complaining about mutalisks are correct, is that there are insufficient tactical options - and it is these that should be explored or enabled with new units, rather than rendering an entire Zerg strategy permanently worthless. By way of a counterexample, a tactical option in TvZ to deal with mass mutalisks is to keep your marines at home, possibly with bunkers, while you assess how much the Zerg is committing to mutas and adjust your strategy accordingly (more marines, Thors, turrets etc). Or you can keep sending out drops, forcing the Zerg to stop pestering your base and deal with them.
both your examples of strategies involve massing a single ability-less unit. i'm all for strategic variance, but frankly i can live without mass muta and mass hydra just like i can live without mass zealot as a viable pvp army because stalkers exist. i just don't think going only muta all game is really a strategically interesting game for either player, especially the zerg.
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On October 26 2011 05:36 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 05:32 freetgy wrote:On October 26 2011 05:25 worldsnap wrote:On October 26 2011 04:54 PopcornColonel wrote:
I'm gonna have to say ZvT is fine, with regard to mutalisks, because of the insane DPS and mobility of marines paired with medivacs, and the great splash damage and usefulness of thors.
For ZvP, however, mutalisks are a bit too strong, because blink stalkers don't have the DPS to deal with a flock of mutalisks before they escape, and phoenixes are so expensive and utterly useless outside of fighting mutalisks. Also, phoenixes are fairly difficult to micro against mutalisks, which can just a-move. Are you serious. You realize that phoenixes can attack without even a-moving.... they are the easiest unit to micro in the whole game. And they are faster than mutas. every unit can attack without even a-moving , troll detected. phoenix are one of the micro intensivest unit in the game. especially low number phoenix vs. high number of mutas. He means that if you move command them they will still attack.... lol. I don't see how you didn't understand that one...
i don't understand how you didn't understand i wasn't posting a serious post, making fun of a obvious trollpost...
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I realize mutas are probably not OP at pro lvl, but at lower leagues I think they are, the whole ZvT matchup revolves around them, they force you as terran to stay in 2 bases, and make a timing push or just die, since you can't let the zerg free map control or you will lose.
A harass unit should be useless out of it,hell, you shouldn't even be able to mass a harass unit and win a game, do you see mass hellions(15-20) or mass banshees do something useful? no.
About the phoenix vs muta, first of all, Z can just pop 15-20 mutas at the same time sometimes, so its not that easy to get the counter to them, and even if you manage to make phoenix, guess what, mutas can shoot air and ground, while phoenix are not that useful on a game deciding battle. As a terran you just don't have any real anti muta in air, so its hard to defend against mass mutas the more bases you have.
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I had a moment of weakness, won't make the debate go further.
I think this won't be big of an issue.
Capital ships are a great investment and won't probably deflect early muta harass, and maybe even make the protoss vulnerable to a tech switch.
And we don't know the exact effectiveness of the new mech terran unit but I don't see it being worse than marines.
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On October 26 2011 04:37 pzea469 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 04:34 DeepElemBlues wrote:
mutalisks definitely are not overpowered
go mutalisk, make one mistake and lose 25%-50% (or more) of your mutas and its gg.
the point of mutalisk is to prevent the other player from simply pushing right at you while you tech up with upgrades and get the creep spread necessary to keep him from simply rolling over you with marine/tank or whatever the brotoss unit composition of the week is at the moment or a big roach push.
if you fail to stay on the offensive with your mutalisks almost 100% of the time for any reason, or lose a significant amount of them harassing, and you're against a good player, your choice of mutalisks turns from one of the best strategic choices zerg can make into gg, you lose.
they are not overpowered. theyre fast glass cannons that aren't even cannons unless you micro properly so you can use them for burst DPS.
players are just terrified of them because reacting to mutalisk play properly requires very quick decisions and they need to be the right ones. when the mutalisks come out zerg has a potential to get very far ahead but also get very far behind and which one happens is all dependent on the skill of the two opposing players. Well what are those decisions? What should protoss do when this happens? I'm seriously asking because I need help vs them.
What most protoss players do to counter builds that go for muta`s and relying on zerglings and static defence is 9 ish minute timing pushes or double stargate. If you suspect that the zerg is going zergling into muta you should do one or the other and you should be fine.
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the thing is, when Z goes mutas in zvt the matchup is so 1-dimensional.
in zvp, 20-30 mutas = almost impossible to stop unless the Z is retarded and walks into a storm.
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I agree muta's are hard for protos. EVERY SINGLE PROTOS UNIT IS HARD FOR ZERG. I think the new unit is to prevent the baseraces we have seen recently in the mu. Imo the only reason we see baseraces is because it is the only situation where p actually has to multitask and can't turtle. This will quickly be too much for our cheesy slow protoss friends to handle so they do what they do best: amoving all their stuff!
Watch top tier protoss players (like Huk) play against mutalisk, they defend with blink stalker and put on pressure at the same time.
So when p players stop being stupid, muta ling will produce great games. Unfortunately blizzard likes seeing deathball vs deathball battles....
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EPT
