EPTMass mutas will still be the best harassment unit in the game, imo. They're speed hasn't changed which means they retain their ability to contain an opponent.
[D]Are mutalisks overpowered in WOL?? - Page 20
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LRObot
United States153 Posts
Mass mutas will still be the best harassment unit in the game, imo. They're speed hasn't changed which means they retain their ability to contain an opponent. | ||
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Creegz
Canada354 Posts
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Achilles306
Canada84 Posts
mutas in zvp right now op vs terrible protoss players good vs mediocre toss players terrible vs good toss players they go from good unit to: "all i can do now is base race and hope he doesnt bring probes + have money banked" protoss can make extremely cost efficient compositions vs any zerg army comp. the tempest scares me even more, will it even be possible to stop a maxed protoss army x.x Agree with this. Whenever zerg makes a bunch of mutas, his only choice is to base race as mutas are terrible in big battles. | ||
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Sparkman
United States60 Posts
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
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Holophonist
United States297 Posts
This is pretty much the same for ZvP except to a larger degree. You simply can't go mutas in ZvP unless it's a surprise or you're already pretty far ahead. Protoss has too many counters to the mutalisk and zerg absolutely cannot go up against a similarly (or relatively smaller) sized protoss army. The only hope a muta ling army has is to base trade, and even then a cool headed protoss will simply bank up some minerals and keep their probes with them. I don't believe blizzard thinks the mutalisk is overpowered, it simply is too stale sometimes. It's far and away the standard ZvT and I don't think blizzard likes standard. | ||
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ArcticFox
United States1092 Posts
If anything, Zerg players should be thrilled about this change -- Thors were huge and beefy and able to zone out mutas very effectively, but when you switched from air back to ground, Thors still did a decent job vs. land units with their 60 damage a shot. (Not so much lings, but everything else pretty good.....) As the stats stand now, Warhounds are not much more than mobile aoe turrets in TvZ, with a paltry 10 damage a shot vs. ground. No more "Mass Thors and 1a to win!", warhounds will have a much more specialized role, and will require Terrans to be a lot more careful about not overmaking warhounds to counter the air, lest they be far too vulnerable on the ground. | ||
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ahw
Canada1099 Posts
i don't think it will change much unless there continues to be tiny 1v1 maps. hopefully this is a sign that blizz is going to focus on these macro styles of maps and macro play in hots. thats the only real area mutas shine right now. | ||
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Antares777
United States1971 Posts
The Warhound would be a replacement for the Thor in a way. The Thor was too large, expensive, and immobile to be effectively used against Mutalisks. The Warhound is faster, smaller, and cheaper than the Thor, with the only drawback being its firepower. Blizzard has made good decisions with these units so far, the only thing I'm on edge is whether or not the Warhound's ground attack is too weak against Zerg ground for it to be worth getting them for anti-air. On a side note, I hope they remove the Thor/Odin unit they are testing. Less massive-destroy-everything units would improve the skill level of the game. | ||
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Holophonist
United States297 Posts
On October 26 2011 10:19 Antares777 wrote: Blizzard has made good decisions with these units so far, the only thing I'm on edge is whether or not the Warhound's ground attack is too weak against Zerg ground for it to be worth getting them for anti-air. On a side note, I hope they remove the Thor/Odin unit they are testing. Less massive-destroy-everything units would improve the skill level of the game. ^^^^ couldn't agree more. Less "oh shit I blinked and my army is dead" is better for the game over all. SC2 is too sneaky and all-inish and I feel like in general, the weaker the units, the better the game will be. a bit of a tangent as the "thodin" surely won't be part of an all-in, but still. | ||
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Dungaurd
United States17 Posts
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Conquerer67
United States605 Posts
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Noro
Canada991 Posts
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cerebralz
United States443 Posts
I would agree if you let the zerg mass expand first then try to defend mutas, you will be very far behind. Normal play though from Protoss centers around some kind of timing push so that is not normally an issue unless you've lost units early. In fact the only time i can get mutas to work at my current level is to do some sort of pressure build to get a sizable lead after which i can force the Protoss tech with mutas. This also depends on the ability to not miss click ever, since the muta flock gets erased so quickly with one mistake. Overall, i don't know where blizzard is getting this info that so many terran and protoss players are having problems with mutas, certainly not from diamond or higher. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On October 26 2011 12:02 cerebralz wrote: I also disagree with the mutas OP "problem." At high levels, (at least high diamond/master) whenever i go muta i get abused by the subsequent push that comes out. A muta flock can never really engage an army and by the time you can get them out, protoss normally has a bunch of gates and tech to pressure you with. Since your dumping all your gas into mutas, all you have left is lings and spines and that isn't a winning combo against the P deathball. I would agree if you let the zerg mass expand first then try to defend mutas, you will be very far behind. Normal play though from Protoss centers around some kind of timing push so that is not normally an issue unless you've lost units early. In fact the only time i can get mutas to work at my current level is to do some sort of pressure build to get a sizable lead after which i can force the Protoss tech with mutas. This also depends on the ability to not miss click ever, since the muta flock gets erased so quickly with one mistake. Overall, i don't know where blizzard is getting this info that so many terran and protoss players are having problems with mutas, certainly not from diamond or higher. Its the general consensus among Korean pros that mass Muta vs. Protoss is pretty crazy strong. Bad zergs dont have to worry about their ladder opponents reacting to mutas properly so low level players think theyre OP. Highest level players multitask so well that they can use mutas in a way that many Pros feel are OP. Diamond-masters level players can macro if you leave them alone, but can't multi-task for shit so they fall apart when they try to use the mutas to the fullest potential. Also, Diamond-masters level protoss have learned to deal with them a little better. That whole breakdown posted above is correct except he left a tier out... there should be one after the one about mutas being terrible against good opponents that reads: Pro muta user/multiasker vs. pro terran/protoss = mutas = incredible. | ||
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ShatterStorm
Australia146 Posts
Example 1, Give Phoenix an energy nova where with one button click, they do damage in an AOE (to air only) but the activation costs the phoenix either energy or even sacrifices its shields to power the blast. eg = "Shield Overload, 5 (+ 10 to light) damage per second for 2 seconds, Targets Air, 2 range AOE centered on the Phoenix (Own units immune), Cost = 50 Shield energy removed from Phoenix" Example 2, Give Carrier interceptors an upgrade where they Explode for AOE damage either as a deliberate attack of on death. eg = "Explosive Charge, 100/100 upgrade, Interceptors explode for 10 AOE (Air) damage on death (AOE Range 1.5). Ability can be toggled to cause Interceptors to Ram target units in an area causing 20 AOE per interceptor (Air/Ground) Range 2 Interceptors are expended after use in ramming attack. | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
1: Mutas completely kill hopes of expanding if you are too far away from your main because without a sizeable turret count or 2 or 3 thors staying there, the expo will die before full potential 2: Thors are clunky, slow to build and slow to maneuver. If you don't scan the spire before it hits ~the 1/2way done mark, thors won't be out in time against the muta flock which gives them a nice window to kill the armory or tech labs. Also, because thors are so slow, Responding to mutas being on the other side of your base takes a while (especially with base clutter). 3: Thors are very weak to lings without a lot of support from marines and reduce your tank or medivac count due to gas limitations and/or using up factory tank production time. Without those, a ling/bling/muta attack can easily kill a lot of marines/tanks, and a followup wave of lings will often catch thors in a very vulnerable position and kill them easily. It's difficult to retreat thors if you are deep into zerg's side of the map due to creep/slowness, and it will again take a long time to rebuild them. 4: Terran doesn't have anything to match muta mobility. Range 10 thors still had problems, because mutas just flew around them because they were so slow. And because thors were so expensive and so slow, even though they gave mutas a good fight they wouldn't be able to match mutas unless you had a lot of time to mass them. 5: Muta harass snowballs too well. If someone harasses you with mutas and kills a bunch of scv's or hamstrings your production (addons removed), they get time to make more mutas. And when they have enough, turrets and thors don't do well enough to deter harassment, which just leads to more turtle from the terran because any attempt at leaving and all his stuff dies. Unless you completely ignore mutas and go for a basetrade, they pin you in your base which lets zerg get more mutas which become increasingly deadly as the numbers go up I think the warhound is an excellent addition to terran to help with the muta problems. Having a less expensive, non semi-capital unit that provides splash against air will definitely help in mech and biomech. A unit that doesn't take as long as a queen (on creep) to move from base to base to defend against high-speed air harassment will be very nice. While marines (op yadda yadda) can counter mutas in roughly equal numbers (better if ahead on upgrades), it makes tanks more vulnerable because they lack the numbers to fight ling/bane and also protect against mutas while pushing. It will also be nice just to have something that can hit more than one muta at a time. For an example, just watch idra vs bomber game 1~idra just kept abusing the fact that the 3rd of bomber left him so far away from his main that his mutas could swing in, kill a bunch of stuff, and fly away safely. And then he built more mutas, and continued to absolutely wreck bombers upgrades and any attempt at gaining momentum for a push. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6214 Posts
As a protoss, I agree. Mutas aren't really a problem. Sure they can be annoying, downright scary at times, but I think there are far bigger issues. Also, more to the point, the tempest is even completely useless at the role it's supposed to fill. It's a slow capital ship; that's the worst possible unit type for scramble-defense except, ironically, the thor. It's only useful in straight up fights. You know what protoss has even less trouble with than muta harass? A zerg who uses mutas in straight up fights. | ||
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solidbebe
Netherlands4921 Posts
On October 26 2011 06:03 freetgy wrote: i don't understand how you didn't understand i wasn't posting a serious post, making fun of a obvious trollpost... Sarcasm can be hard to spot through the internet... | ||
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DrSuit
Netherlands33 Posts
mutas in zvp right now op vs terrible protoss players good vs mediocre toss players terrible vs good toss players they go from good unit to: "all i can do now is base race and hope he doesnt bring probes + have money banked" protoss can make extremely cost efficient compositions vs any zerg army comp. the tempest scares me even more, will it even be possible to stop a maxed protoss army x.x This | ||
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