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On October 26 2011 13:46 Belisarius wrote:
As much as I've been hating on the 30 billion "my thoughts on hots" threads that have sprung up lately, this one is a worthwhile discussion.
As a protoss, I agree. Mutas aren't really a problem. Sure they can be annoying, downright scary at times, but I think there are far bigger issues.
Also, more to the point, the tempest is even completely useless at the role it's supposed to fill. It's a slow capital ship; that's the worst possible unit type for scramble-defense except, ironically, the thor. It's only useful in straight up fights.
You know what protoss has even less trouble with than muta harass? A zerg who uses mutas in straight up fights.
Well, I don't think that blizzard really wants to create the tempest for dealing with mutalisk harass or combats. They know that this won't be a great idea. What I rather think is, that they saw that the carrier has no use because the way it is designed it is good vs ground, medium vs air. This overlaps with colossus utility (both T3), as the colossus is already great vs ground and nonexistent vs air.
--> both units when massed get countered by corruptors
By making a capital ship that is great vs air, medium/bad vs ground, they create a metagame, in which tempests (maybe with little support - few stalkers, void rays, templar) might be able to take out a mostly corruptor zerg in the endgame, thus creating an endgame scenario, in which Protoss is superior to zerg in the air, but zerg can go hydralisks to counter this, because Protoss now loses it's air to ground hydra hardcounter.
I'd think of it as rather a metagame experiment, trying to give Protoss an air army that zerg just can't counter as easily with air themselves, but also opening a window for the hydralisk. (note how Protoss right now gets stuck when going air against zerg, because investing into carriers is absolutly useless, due to zerg air beating protoss air already, before one invests into a unit that is already cost/supply inefficient against zerg air)
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I notice mostly zergs I have faced now in Season 4 are going mutalisks, like an increase because protoss are getting maybe the tempest in HotS, which will make it harder for mutalisk play. 
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Carrier is suppose to be a highly microable mobile anti-seige seige unit. It is suppose to break apart forward entrenched positions that have been established by your opponents own seige units. Like Starcraft 1 it is suppose to break apart seige tanks. In Starcraft 2., its roll would be a counter to mech, and sieges from the other race that uses other seige units like seige tanks or broodlords.
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United Kingdom20321 Posts
On October 27 2011 20:35 eYeball wrote:I notice mostly zergs I have faced now in Season 4 are going mutalisks, like an increase because protoss are getting maybe the tempest in HotS, which will make it harder for mutalisk play.
About 80% of zerg i face go muta ling.
Last season, about 80% of zergs i faced went 11pool 18hatch ling infestor.
Damnit Destiny
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This is just blizzard going for the RPS style of balancing, it might be easy but man does it make the game boring. Mutalisks are on of the most interesting units in the game since there's no clear cut counter to them, they just reward good control and decision making. If you want to tone down mutalisks do it through maps, stop making maps with huge amount of space behind mineral lines and easy to abuse terrain.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/c/cf/Silver_Wing.jpg
But whatever, why argue? Blizzard is gonna dumb down the game anyway because they do not understand it. Or they do but just wants to make it newbie friendly.
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>they just reward good control and decision making.
Yeah and they also don't give your opponents much way to counter them like forcefield/FG spamming.
At least in brood wars you could use irradiate and have corsair micro, in SC2 tournies the terran/protoss almost always lost when the zerg has 30-40 mutalisks.
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the thing about mutalisks is they support their role reallly well. this ishould be fine because their unit pool is quite low. doing those big tech switches is one of the strengths of zerg. not gona talk about terran but protoss. Sure protoss may have a bit of trouble dealing with mass mutas. However, stalkers have always been the "jack of all trades" unit. When in doubt, just keep summoning stalkers. Protoss also has imoi the best static d. got trouble? just summon a billion cannons. Thus I'm not sure why P is having "trouble" with mutas
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On October 26 2011 08:55 Achilles306 wrote:Show nested quote +mutas in zvp right now
op vs terrible protoss players
good vs mediocre toss players
terrible vs good toss players
they go from good unit to: "all i can do now is base race and hope he doesnt bring probes + have money banked"
protoss can make extremely cost efficient compositions vs any zerg army comp. the tempest scares me even more, will it even be possible to stop a maxed protoss army x.x
Agree with this. Whenever zerg makes a bunch of mutas, his only choice is to base race as mutas are terrible in big battles.
You make it sound like a base race is actually a bad thing for the zerg. With the muta mobility and being able to spam hatcheries everywhere it's actually very much in their favor.
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Turrets are far better than cannons against air, and even with 4-5 they are a joke against large muta numbers, they're needed for defense at the 8-14 minute mark when zerg doesn't have the resources, after that you can have 6 turrets and the mutas will gib them with maybe 1-2 deaths, along with all your workers.
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On October 25 2011 18:22 Brotocol wrote:
* They justified it in TvZ as magic box being too much for Thors to handle. I don't agree with that assessment. Thor + marine micro is enough imho.
That really is a terrible assessment by Blizzard. I mean, really? Mutas are imba because you can't mass mech without getting countered by air? God forbid terran ever has to react to what units the opponent is making, instead of vice versa. It's supposed to be unfair to terran to make them get marines with their mech if zerg goes mass muta..... riiiiight.
On October 25 2011 18:22 Brotocol wrote:
* Protoss "doesn't really need any more units" so they're giving P players something to fill the strange scenario of "40-50 mutalisks." I don't agree with their reasoning either.
I'm primarily a P player nowadays, and I think muta is perfectly dangerous right now without being OP.
I mostly agree. Stalkers with guardian shield, especially with armor upgrades, can eat muta damage all day long. Templars absolutely destroy mutas and can be used for base defense while you send the stalker army out on offense.
Still, at lower levels (diamond and below) I think mass muta is kind of a problem for protoss to deal with. As someone mentioned already, unless the protoss is very skilled, he is forced to stay home and defend forever, or move out and instantly face a base trade scenario.
I have no problem with protoss getting a stronger counter, especially since it requires teching to stargate and making a real investment into it... give zerg a reason to move on from mutas onto infestors/broods/whatever.
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>Mutas are imba because you can't mass mech without getting countered by air? God forbid terran ever has to react to what units the opponent is making, instead of vice versa. It's supposed to be unfair to terran to make them get marines with their mech if zerg goes mass muta..... riiiiight.
There's also the fact that ultras/broodlords are GG against mech, and the timing window means terran can't do much pushes till a lot later.
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On October 27 2011 21:40 Fluttershy wrote:
>they just reward good control and decision making.
Yeah and they also don't give your opponents much way to counter them like forcefield/FG spamming.
At least in brood wars you could use irradiate and have corsair micro, in SC2 tournies the terran/protoss almost always lost when the zerg has 30-40 mutalisks.
Good phoenix micro can deal with mutas and so can good blink micro. The problem as I said is maps right now, every single map has this huge area behind your minerals where you can camp your banshees, mutas and dropships. This hurts protoss by far the most and doesn't require anything but better maps to be fixed.
I dunno maybe I'm just bitter about them keeping the incredibly boring colossus and removing the much more interesting carrier. Since yes broodwar did have corsairs which I guess were kind of a hard counter to mutas? But it wasn't a-move hardcounter it was a lot more micro based with scourges and shit flying around, this just seems so basic and boring.
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On October 27 2011 21:40 Fluttershy wrote:
>they just reward good control and decision making.
Yeah and they also don't give your opponents much way to counter them like forcefield/FG spamming.
At least in brood wars you could use irradiate and have corsair micro, in SC2 tournies the terran/protoss almost always lost when the zerg has 30-40 mutalisks.
Which? SilverCup? GoforSCNoob?
There is 1occasions in which Zerg goes for that many mutalisks: Against constant TvZ pushes that zerg defends in which zerg gets ahead and ahead until Zerg has enough mutalisks to kill marines, because zerg just has more mutalisks than terran marines, because terran wasted all his army again and again, while zerg preserved his mutalisks.
If Terran doesn't go for this 2base allin style (that is extremly outdated in the proscene), zerg can't build up that mutacount, because terran will have ~60+ marines to combat them and zerg needs the gas for banelings and higher tech, because high supply marine/tank/medivac beats the hell out of high supply baneling/zergling/mutalisk.
maybe the secon occasion when zerg does that, if he gets extremly ahead against protoss and can switch into 15+mutalisks at once after an army trade (means that armies where equal, but zerg is 1500+/1500+ ahead!) and then continues to build more mutalisks, because he is just so far ahead, that he wants to end the game and mutalisks are the only unit that can get into a base without drops and it really doesn't matter anymore, that stalkers are efficient vs them, because zerg already won the game.
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>Which? SilverCup? GoforSCNoob?
Like 90% of GSL/MLG/etc ZvT wins that don't involve broodlords end up with zerg just throwing away banelings and zerglings which easily wipe out all the marines and tanks while still retaining all his mutas, and he keeps getting more and ends up not even needing lings and just straights up camping the base and killing everything cause lol terran moves too slow.
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On October 27 2011 22:10 Fluttershy wrote:
>Which? SilverCup? GoforSCNoob?
Like 90% of GSL/MLG/etc ZvT wins that don't involve broodlords end up with zerg just throwing away banelings and zerglings which easily wipe out all the marines and tanks while still retaining all his mutas, and he keeps getting more and ends up not even needing lings and just straights up camping the base and killing everything cause lol terran moves too slow.
Yeah, you mean that thing I described? Terran 2base allinning and losing 1-2 tank/marine pushes and than only having like 20marines vs 30mutalisks?
Just as an example how you beat mutastyle:
+ Show Spoiler +Supernova vs DRG from last GSL; supernova does no 2base allin and just ends up with enough marines to cover all bases
Ditto every MVP vs Zerg game and just nearly any GSL Code S TvZ that wasn't Mech or cheese. Hell I would even go that far to say, that a 2base Terran push against a safe playing zerg is nothing more than a terran 6gate allin, because like with 6gate, Protoss doesn't lose right away if he loses his army, but he will have nothing to combat zerg in the longrun, if zerg didn't go for some weird 2base allin himself.
I really don't get why terrans think they should be allowed to lose a 2base push against a zerg and still end up even. Those 10min marine/tank pushes are neither necessary to force units from zerg nor to secure terrans own expansion. All they are, are semiallins with a chance to kill a zerg that overextends too much (mutas+early third+low zergling count), but set you back extremly if you don't kill at least every mutalisk and baneling + makes you end up on even bases.
It's the same thing for Zerg vs Terran. If zerg can't kill the tanks but loses all mutas and banelings all the time, then eventually terran will reach the point where he has enough tanks to just roflstomp anything that zerg can rebuild on the ground, while marine production will keep mutaproduction checked.
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I for 1 am in the "Muta are OP" mind set. And i'll explain why. First of all as a single unit mutas are not that great. But as they increase in number they become much much more effective. So here's all my reasons and descriptions.
1. Muta are cheap. This is a relative term based on comparison to other air units. Muta 100/100 vs phoenix 150/100 or viking 150/75.
2. Muta can attack air AND ground units. Unlike vikings and phoenix, unless you just have nothing but muta AND your base is under attack it's almost impossible to overextend with mutas.
3. Muta are "light" armor type. This means that muta are the air to air counter to vikings and void rays, and it also means that muta take 10 damage per hit from a stalker.
4. Muta have 120 health. This means it takes 12 hits from a stalker 10 hits from a thor and 4 from a turret to kill "1" muta.
5. Magic box. Renders Thor and Archon much less effective despite their high cost.
6. Flying units "can" clump. This is similar to the reason why marines increase in effectiveness dramatically as their numbers increase. They're all able to attack something while the enemy units may not all be able to return fire immediately.
7. Muta have splash damage. This exponentially increases the damage they do in numbers to clumped units. This is the reason why mass muta can kill mass phoenix. Maybe Phoenix should magic box against muta?
**8. Muta are very fast. This is compounded by the fact they are air units. For harassing a base you can get in pick off workers/buildings and get out with almost no loss. This is problematic because of the nature of zerg. Having small chokes and and mazes is essential for early zerg ground aggression but is disadvantageous for defending muta harass with ground units. This also makes it very hard when you expand and have to build lots of aa def or leaving units behind. In the hands of a good player Muta can get in pick off units and get out without loss while continuing to slowly increase muta count until they reach critical mass. And even if you decided to counter instead of defending ur base, muta can get back to their own base in almost no time at all. And with ling, bane and mass muta zerg can defend their base easily through most of the game. Especially with the proper amount of prior econ harass.
All of these items add up to a greater whole. Which means basically the problem with muta is the fact they can fill almost all rolls with no support and are infact amazing support. They need a better mid game counter or reduced versatility. Maybe make some of these items researched upgrades. But as of now in the hands of a "fair" player muta can avoid almost all counter measures.
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Mutas are incredibly powerful against protoss. I usually don't like to question the pros, but it's mind boggling to me that they're not more common in ZvP. I guarantee you that almost all protoss players fear mutas more than roaches.
Too much is made out of it being an auto lose against 6/7 gate. First of all, scouting mutas is pretty tricky without a robo or hellucination, which would already take out a lot of steam out of your timing. Second, it's still questionable whether you will get through the spine crawler wall+ lings+ mutas that you will face. Not to mention the fact that you're completely all in.
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On October 31 2011 10:30 l2ap wrote:
I for 1 am in the "Muta are OP" mind set. And i'll explain why. First of all as a single unit mutas are not that great. But as they increase in number they become much much more effective. So here's all my reasons and descriptions.
1. Muta are cheap. This is a relative term based on comparison to other air units. Muta 100/100 vs phoenix 150/100 or viking 150/75.
2. Muta can attack air AND ground units. Unlike vikings and phoenix, unless you just have nothing but muta AND your base is under attack it's almost impossible to overextend with mutas.
3. Muta are "light" armor type. This means that muta are the air to air counter to vikings and void rays, and it also means that muta take 10 damage per hit from a stalker.
4. Muta have 120 health. This means it takes 12 hits from a stalker 10 hits from a thor and 4 from a turret to kill "1" muta.
5. Magic box. Renders Thor and Archon much less effective despite their high cost.
6. Flying units "can" clump. This is similar to the reason why marines increase in effectiveness dramatically as their numbers increase. They're all able to attack something while the enemy units may not all be able to return fire immediately.
7. Muta have splash damage. This exponentially increases the damage they do in numbers to clumped units. This is the reason why mass muta can kill mass phoenix. Maybe Phoenix should magic box against muta?
**8. Muta are very fast. This is compounded by the fact they are air units. For harassing a base you can get in pick off workers/buildings and get out with almost no loss. This is problematic because of the nature of zerg. Having small chokes and and mazes is essential for early zerg ground aggression but is disadvantageous for defending muta harass with ground units. This also makes it very hard when you expand and have to build lots of aa def or leaving units behind. In the hands of a good player Muta can get in pick off units and get out without loss while continuing to slowly increase muta count until they reach critical mass. And even if you decided to counter instead of defending ur base, muta can get back to their own base in almost no time at all. And with ling, bane and mass muta zerg can defend their base easily through most of the game. Especially with the proper amount of prior econ harass.
All of these items add up to a greater whole. Which means basically the problem with muta is the fact they can fill almost all rolls with no support and are infact amazing support. They need a better mid game counter or reduced versatility. Maybe make some of these items researched upgrades. But as of now in the hands of a "fair" player muta can avoid almost all counter measures.
I dont really care for the rest of your argument but I'd like to point out that saying Muta's are cheap at 100/100 while saying they're bad in small numbers makes no sense.
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On October 31 2011 10:30 l2ap wrote:
I for 1 am in the "Muta are OP" mind set. And i'll explain why. First of all as a single unit mutas are not that great. But as they increase in number they become much much more effective. So here's all my reasons and descriptions.
1. Muta are cheap. This is a relative term based on comparison to other air units. Muta 100/100 vs phoenix 150/100 or viking 150/75.
2. Muta can attack air AND ground units. Unlike vikings and phoenix, unless you just have nothing but muta AND your base is under attack it's almost impossible to overextend with mutas.
3. Muta are "light" armor type. This means that muta are the air to air counter to vikings and void rays, and it also means that muta take 10 damage per hit from a stalker.
4. Muta have 120 health. This means it takes 12 hits from a stalker 10 hits from a thor and 4 from a turret to kill "1" muta.
5. Magic box. Renders Thor and Archon much less effective despite their high cost.
6. Flying units "can" clump. This is similar to the reason why marines increase in effectiveness dramatically as their numbers increase. They're all able to attack something while the enemy units may not all be able to return fire immediately.
7. Muta have splash damage. This exponentially increases the damage they do in numbers to clumped units. This is the reason why mass muta can kill mass phoenix. Maybe Phoenix should magic box against muta?
**8. Muta are very fast. This is compounded by the fact they are air units. For harassing a base you can get in pick off workers/buildings and get out with almost no loss. This is problematic because of the nature of zerg. Having small chokes and and mazes is essential for early zerg ground aggression but is disadvantageous for defending muta harass with ground units. This also makes it very hard when you expand and have to build lots of aa def or leaving units behind. In the hands of a good player Muta can get in pick off units and get out without loss while continuing to slowly increase muta count until they reach critical mass. And even if you decided to counter instead of defending ur base, muta can get back to their own base in almost no time at all. And with ling, bane and mass muta zerg can defend their base easily through most of the game. Especially with the proper amount of prior econ harass.
All of these items add up to a greater whole. Which means basically the problem with muta is the fact they can fill almost all rolls with no support and are infact amazing support. They need a better mid game counter or reduced versatility. Maybe make some of these items researched upgrades. But as of now in the hands of a "fair" player muta can avoid almost all counter measures.
I am not going to try and refute all you points because I don't want to write too long a response.
Anyway Just you first point, the muta's cost is actually very high for its fighting ability. The only thing that muta's have going for them is versatility, which is of course a huge thing.
The strong muta-ball that you are basing the rest of your ideas around costs almost, if not all of the zergs resources to build up, and that is if their control is amazing and can keep almost all of the muta's alive. Again even with those two factors met, the muta ball only arrives by the late game, it usually delays hive tech.
Also using what I consider similar logic to the logic you are using for the muta; marines are also OP. Because lets be honest, they are versatile. The most versatile unit in the game, their cost is about 1/6 of a muta and 2-3 marines can kill one muta.
Finally I feel that your post near the end sounds angry at the muta for being able to be microed well. I there weren't units that could change the tide of battle due to micro then we wouldn't be playing starcraft.
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On October 25 2011 18:22 Brotocol wrote:
* They justified it in TvZ as magic box being too much for Thors to handle. I don't agree with that assessment. Thor + marine micro is enough imho.
* Protoss "doesn't really need any more units" so they're giving P players something to fill the strange scenario of "40-50 mutalisks." I don't agree with their reasoning either.
I'm primarily a P player nowadays, and I think muta is perfectly dangerous right now without being OP.
not all terran players want to go marines vs everything, now they can go full mech like in BW
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EPT
