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On October 31 2011 11:43 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 11:32 Antares777 wrote:
The Tempest has a lot more potential than just anti-mass Mutalisk. It helps a ton late game defending your Colossi against Vikings and Corruptors, which clump together when the focus fire, making the AoE insanely good, and with some Stalkers, the Vikings and Corruptors will have a difficult time destroying Colossi. To be honest i will reserve any judgement until i have actually play a version of the game, but one aspect of your post scares me quite a bit. Let me elaborate: Tempest is an air unit. Viking is Terrans only anti air unit which is meant to deal with armored targets (unless your a zerg in which case ghosts with snipe count). So if the Tempest can beat Vikings in a battle (somewhat cost effectively) what exactly are terrans supposed to do against the Hots protoss deathball of Tempest, Colossi and some gateway stuff? If they cannot counter colossi with vikings what exactly is supposed to kill them from the Terran arsenal? Will we exchange bio + support for pure mech as the go to build in Hots? because that is what your post sounds like. On the flip side, if the Tempest dies to a cloud of vikings (as the carrier currently does) protoss will have another air unit they won't build vs Terran...
lolwut? vikings the only anti air? vikings, thor, ghosts(against zerg), and marines are all great against air(am i missing any?). LOL, marines with stim absolutely rape most air units. actually, marines with stim and upgrades counter just about everything, but we wont go there.
On October 31 2011 11:52 Steel wrote:
That's basically it.
It seems like protoss and terran need a unit that HARD COUNTERS every zerg unit.
I don't fucking get it seriously.
terran do, theyre called marines 
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Honestly, I really feel that they are sometimes, but I don't think it's too important. I mean turrets don't seem to do a whole lot to deter them, even in small numbers, And I've played games where 10 or so mutas have taken out 10 to 20 to tanks even when they were guarded by marines and turrets because the mutas are pretty robust and don't die quickly. They just take a lot of resources and attention to defend properly, but on the whole, they're not statistically overpowered. Maybe a little strategically OP, but not anymore that say, creep, or something.
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Not having the Thor should make gameplay more interesting. At the moment in TvZ it's bassically:
if the muta ball gets too big
make a couple of thors. leave one at home and bring one with the army
otherwise
just make marines and turrets
And then killing the Thor requires some kinda gimmicky game play from the Zerg. Like magic boxing or randomly making a large group of roaches. Or simply stoping with Mutas.
I think the Warhound should make the whole match up more match up more dynamic in that regard. How many Warhounds should I make? What if he goes mass Muta? What if he stops making Mutas altogether? It also might allow me to avoid making marines at all? I don't know.
I think for PvZ, you can't really go reactive Pheonix against Mutas. The Tempest gives Protoss that chance. BUT, from what I've seen, a good Muta player should still be able to micro against the Tempest. I don't think it's as hard of a counter as it appears in a lot of videos.
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I actually DO think mutalisks are imbalanced, but notice how i use the word imbalanced instead of Overpowered.
I dont actually think the unit is too strong, its really nicely balanced the way it is now, and i think its fine in ZvT, but i think the issue is with ZvP. but only because i feel that protoss doesnt have the tools necessary to tangle with it properly, not because its too fast or does too much damage.
for example, a flock of mass mutalisks, vs a ball of mass stalkers, actually has the mutalisks winning the fight, (kinda easily too depending on upgrades and numbers ofc) and the same deal actually applies to phoenix aswell, phoenix are slightly faster than mutas and are designed to deal heavy damage to them, however the phoenix and the stalker have something in common, theyre fragile, something that mutas in large numbers, with their splash damage, can deal very well with when microed, for example if u run ur flock of mutas away from chasing phoenix, then instantly snap back and attack, u fill find urself dealing A LOT of damage due to the glaive splash, and the low armr and hp of phoenix. cannons are also un repairable by probes also, making large numbers of muta's brave up to even 4 or 5 of them once the number surpasses 20+
this is all because protoss has no spash vs air, we had no corsair, blizzard is trying to fix this by adding in the tempest, which is fine and great, however i personally dont believe it will fix our problem to put our answer at tier 3, when mutalisks will have been transitioned out from by the time they arrive. and there will still be a massive amount of those really obnoxious games you get alot vs zerg that have u pinned in ur 2 base for sooo long unless u scout the mutas coming before hand and make a timing that forces the mutas to be defensive, otherwise u WILL be in a base race scenario, which is just frustrating.
im rambling now, this was all just my experience both in playing and watching (notice sen makes a spire in response to stargate play lol, did it vs Tyler in NASL 1, i believe he did it vs MC in NASL on terminus iirc, and if u watch his stream u see it sometimes aswell)
pls dont confuse me as a whiner, im not upset about muta ling in PvZ, i am at a high enough level to know how to deal with it effectively and beat it enough times to know exactly how the strategy works, i just feel like it was a stale matchup when that strategy was used, and im glad blizzard are addressing it in some way
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muta are not OP but they are one of the best unit of the game for sure. the more you have mutas the more bounce you get.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37121 Posts
Honestly, the mutalisk is not an overpowered unit. But it is a BIG problem because of the potential it holds.
Bring the tempest down from tier 3. It's just stupid to keep it at tier3
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From the bowels of the lower leagues, what my muta nightmares are. I start with tank, marine. He goes ling/bling. I simply have no clue to to keep enough marines alive if he has a decent amount of baneling. He goes muta, I start thors. He starts harassing, a bit here, a bit there, adding up more and more mutas. By the time my marines run in he's gone or if he thinks he has enough mutas, they die. At the end he destroys my 3rd with 30+ mutas, runs out and engages with 30-40 mutas, ling, bling into sieged tanks, thors and marines. My army vanishes, even if 200/200.
Basically if he never commits the mutas and I choose to turtle he will destroy me the moment he's got a decent enough muta ball because thors are overall useless against boxed mutas in high enough numbers. And I'm not exactly a god at spreading marines against banelings.
Warhound will help because they're gonna acquire more targets at range, even if boxed more than 2-3 mutas will take damage. Between hounds and tanks you'll also have a decent wall for the marines; thors were simply too expensive to risk them all versus banelings.
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I feel Blizzard isn't making this change for balance reasons but for gameplay reasons. Mutas right now force Terran/Protoss to play a turtle style because they can overcome static defenses when you have 25-30 of them. This causes the defending player to either move out with a weaker army or enter a base-trade situation with the zerg. The mobility that Zergs get with mutalisks make for very interesting gameplay in the mid-game, but in the late game when resources are plentiful, having that sort of mobility makes things very uninteresting.
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i dont think they are op but i do think protoss needs a better way to deal with muta harass. right now, playing vs muta-ling is just plain stupid. the protoss is forced to base trade unless the zerg fucks up and loses his mutas or somehow doesnt deny the protoss' third. Archons dont do jack cos of their slow speed and fatness and storms only deter mutas for a bit as the mutas can comeback after the ht casts its storm. sure the protoss can win the basetrade, but being forced into a basetrade scnario eveytime you play zerg is just lame and coin flippy. to avoid basetrading, you either need to have sensed or scouted muta and made phoenix or kill his muta flock which will never happen against a good zerg. Against terran, mutas dont mean basetrade as marines do alot better against mutas than stalkers and mass turrets actually deter mutas cos of repair. terrans also are much better basetraders due to repair, building lifting and mules.
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On October 25 2011 18:16 GhostFall wrote:
For those saying, we don't know what HOTS will be like, I agree, but none of the new units and changes revealed so far show any indication of changing the mutalisk dynamic except these 2 units in the 2 matchups.
The Viper's dark swarm or whatever it's called shuts down all ground anti-air, and the Viper can fly. Happy Mutalisks! I haven't played it, but in theory this should make them considerably stronger and marines a considerably weaker counter.
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On October 31 2011 16:52 Champi wrote:I actually DO think mutalisks are imbalanced, but notice how i use the word imbalanced instead of Overpowered. I dont actually think the unit is too strong, its really nicely balanced the way it is now, and i think its fine in ZvT, but i think the issue is with ZvP. but only because i feel that protoss doesnt have the tools necessary to tangle with it properly, not because its too fast or does too much damage. for example, a flock of mass mutalisks, vs a ball of mass stalkers, actually has the mutalisks winning the fight, (kinda easily too depending on upgrades and numbers ofc) and the same deal actually applies to phoenix aswell, phoenix are slightly faster than mutas and are designed to deal heavy damage to them, however the phoenix and the stalker have something in common, theyre fragile, something that mutas in large numbers, with their splash damage, can deal very well with when microed, for example if u run ur flock of mutas away from chasing phoenix, then instantly snap back and attack, u fill find urself dealing A LOT of damage due to the glaive splash, and the low armr and hp of phoenix. cannons are also un repairable by probes also, making large numbers of muta's brave up to even 4 or 5 of them once the number surpasses 20+ this is all because protoss has no spash vs air, we had no corsair, blizzard is trying to fix this by adding in the tempest, which is fine and great, however i personally dont believe it will fix our problem to put our answer at tier 3, when mutalisks will have been transitioned out from by the time they arrive. and there will still be a massive amount of those really obnoxious games you get alot vs zerg that have u pinned in ur 2 base for sooo long unless u scout the mutas coming before hand and make a timing that forces the mutas to be defensive, otherwise u WILL be in a base race scenario, which is just frustrating. im rambling now, this was all just my experience both in playing and watching (notice sen makes a spire in response to stargate play lol, did it vs Tyler in NASL 1, i believe he did it vs MC in NASL on terminus iirc, and if u watch his stream u see it sometimes aswell) pls dont confuse me as a whiner, im not upset about muta ling in PvZ, i am at a high enough level to know how to deal with it effectively and beat it enough times to know exactly how the strategy works, i just feel like it was a stale matchup when that strategy was used, and im glad blizzard are addressing it in some way
Same cost of stalkers and phoenix beat the hell out of mutalisks (well, I guess when mutanumbers get really big, stalkers might have troubles). Saying that mutalisks beat phoenix, just because a zerg invests 2000/2000 into them, while the Protoss only invested in 5early and later on went up to something like 1500/1000, doesn't mean that mutalisks beat Phoenix. It means that Protoss either have to figure out builds in which Phoenix are easier to mass/play a major part right away or they shouldn't rely solely on phoenix for antimuta defense.
I do agree that muta/ling right from the start was pretty brutal for Protoss to deal with, because he couldn't spread his units out at that time and then had to invest heavily in antimutatech, which meant that he had usually nothing to beat zerglings, but those times are over anyway. Nearly any build Protoss opens with today, shuts down early muta/ling extremly well.
Also it is hard to tell, if the build was really imbalanced, as it was played at a time, when players still did stuff like hatch first, 4gate timing expand, missed forcefields and injects early and played on maps like steppes of war and desert oasis.
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Mutas in PvZ are really strong. On eu server at gm level 75% of the zerg go for mutas. The problem is that protoss can't deal with basetrades vs mutaling, and that mutas defeat stalkers in big numbers (because of splash and because they stack). Unless you open blndly with 2 stargate after FFE, You are playing from behind. Blizzard seems to be waware of that.
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On October 31 2011 17:39 FrogOfWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 18:16 GhostFall wrote:
For those saying, we don't know what HOTS will be like, I agree, but none of the new units and changes revealed so far show any indication of changing the mutalisk dynamic except these 2 units in the 2 matchups. The Viper's dark swarm or whatever it's called shuts down all ground anti-air, and the Viper can fly. Happy Mutalisks! I haven't played it, but in theory this should make them considerably stronger and marines a considerably weaker counter.
The grabbing ability too, if it stays as is. Who knows, maybe grabbing and sniping those slow Tempests will make them useless even against Mutas. And it could be used to reduce the number of Warhounds as well.
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I don't get it, instead of admitting that the removal of corsairs 1.0 was a mistake they remove carriers and add corsairs 2.0?
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I'm just really pissed that Blizzard decided the correct way to deal with Mutalisks was to give Protoss this "Tempest" and not buff the Archon - a mild counter and the only reasonable option in response to Muta - instead, nor did they bother to fix some frustrating problems with the Archon such as the fact that it's so bulky that it can't fit through a 1x1 building gap like every other protoss unit and if you make a gate/core wall in your main, you have to kill a building just to let them pass through.
Buffing the Archon to make it more effective and more convenient is clearly the more practical response... but Blizzard just _had_ to do some drugs and come up with wacky-ass units, and then tweak them to justify their belonging in the current metagame.
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And to those wondering why Blizzard thinks mutas might be too strong in HotS, just imagine this scenario:
You're harrassing a Protoss mineral line, his Stalkers come in to defend. You retreat, he follows you and blinks down his base to chase your Mutas. Pretty normal stuff in WoL.
Except in HotS you will have 2 vipers flying outside his base, as soon as he blinks down they cast Blinding Cloud, you proceed to clean all of his Stalker army and win the game easily 
I imagine this kind of thing is why Blizzard is adding Muta "counters", not because they're too strong in WoL.
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Personally I feel just like alot of other people here, In small numbers I'm fine with mutas. In bigger, say 15-20+ they get out of hand for me. Because they are air units, and fast ones they can easily catch you of guard and clean up an entire mineral line. And even if they are unsuccesfull with it, they can catch 5~ ish workers and fly out. DRG shows this "technique" with mass mutas and less banelings and I find it very frustrating to play against. I can imagine it feels a like having hellions in your mineral line.
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Except in HotS you will have 2 vipers flying outside his base, as soon as he blinks down they cast Blinding Cloud, you proceed to clean all of his Stalker army and win the game easily
Good point. Though I would absolutely hope that pure air vs air games are gonna be viable in HotS...
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The problem is that the counter to 1 Stargate play is more Mutas. Which doesn't make much sense and without air-superiority Toss can't do drops.
Honestly though I think Phoenix's should just have splash (give Archon bigger splash radius and more damage to light as well), because the Tempest is just another boring A-move unit.
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On October 31 2011 13:52 Soulriser wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 11:43 Tula wrote:On October 31 2011 11:32 Antares777 wrote:
The Tempest has a lot more potential than just anti-mass Mutalisk. It helps a ton late game defending your Colossi against Vikings and Corruptors, which clump together when the focus fire, making the AoE insanely good, and with some Stalkers, the Vikings and Corruptors will have a difficult time destroying Colossi. To be honest i will reserve any judgement until i have actually play a version of the game, but one aspect of your post scares me quite a bit. Let me elaborate: Tempest is an air unit. Viking is Terrans only anti air unit which is meant to deal with armored targets (unless your a zerg in which case ghosts with snipe count). So if the Tempest can beat Vikings in a battle (somewhat cost effectively) what exactly are terrans supposed to do against the Hots protoss deathball of Tempest, Colossi and some gateway stuff? If they cannot counter colossi with vikings what exactly is supposed to kill them from the Terran arsenal? Will we exchange bio + support for pure mech as the go to build in Hots? because that is what your post sounds like. On the flip side, if the Tempest dies to a cloud of vikings (as the carrier currently does) protoss will have another air unit they won't build vs Terran... lolwut? vikings the only anti air? vikings, thor, ghosts(against zerg), and marines are all great against air(am i missing any?). LOL, marines with stim absolutely rape most air units. actually, marines with stim and upgrades counter just about everything, but we wont go there.
He said the only anti-air meant to deal with armored targets. The Viking is the only one with a bonus vs armored.
also yeah yeah you can bitch about marines, other people do it better than you do
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EPT
