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Fluttershy
47 Posts
Not too many things countered them in classic because anti-air outside marines only did half damage to them. Dragoons did half damage, goliaths did half damage, scouts.. lol, wraiths did half damage, missile turrets did half damage, etc. All I did in zerg campaign was spam mutas as only storm posed a threat. funfact : mutas attack 50% faster in SC2 than in the first game(1.3 vs 1.9). | ||
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zul
Germany5427 Posts
On October 31 2011 18:28 sluggaslamoo wrote: The problem is that the counter to 1 Stargate play is more Mutas. Which doesn't make much sense and without air-superiority Toss can't do drops. Honestly though I think Phoenix's should just have splash (give Archon bigger splash radius and more damage to light as well), because the Tempest is just another boring A-move unit. you must be kidding. the phoenix has speed + movement shot + spell which makes him just as good a harassment unit as the mutalisk. Why should a Toss if he decides to go stargate and make a harassment unit, instantly have the counter to the harrasment unit of his opponent. Muta vs phoenix is just a micro battle. A toss can always be moving and do damage to mutas without ever being hit. Toss only take damage if they stop doing this and try to engage directly or the zergplayer is able to trick the toss (fly away shortly, then return and attack, repeat) Regarding your archon "improvements" I cant say one thing, but this: it would be beyond imbalanced. | ||
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DrGreen
Poland708 Posts
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ILoveCoffee
Malaysia164 Posts
On October 31 2011 20:00 DrGreen wrote: Increasing Phoenix range to 5 would be totally enough buff if blizzard consider buffing P vs muta. That would make phoenixes too good vs mutas. It gives a lot of micro room for the phoenixes so that they are never hit by mutas. | ||
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Phlatline
Croatia176 Posts
 ((. And if Toss can't deal with mutas with what they got they're doing something wrong... | ||
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DrGreen
Poland708 Posts
On October 31 2011 20:16 ILoveCoffee wrote: That would make phoenixes too good vs mutas. It gives a lot of micro room for the phoenixes so that they are never hit by mutas. Right now phoenixes are totally useless vs muta, unless u opened with 2 stargate. Increasing their range by 1 would be better idea then adding some Tempest shit. On October 31 2011 20:19 Phlatline wrote: [...] And if Toss can't deal with mutas with what they got they're doing something wrong... Pros tosses doing something wrong all the time then. I think that what u'r missing is that pros zergs muta control is better then any diamond/master player on ladder, and perfectly controlled mutas > perfectly controlled protoss army. | ||
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LAN-f34r
New Zealand2099 Posts
Then again, I'm not one to talk - I can't hold ling runbys after 3gate expoing | ||
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DrGreen
Poland708 Posts
On October 31 2011 20:28 LAN-f34r wrote: I don't see how Protoss can't defend mutas. Seems like they could play defensive with blink stalkers untill they amass enough phoenix to defend mutas ez pz. Then again, I'm not one to talk - I can't hold ling runbys after 3gate expoing even if u manage to get ~15 stalkers to defend ur 2 bases and start massing phoenixes, then when u have those 15-20 phoenixes, suddenly your opponent is on 4+ bases 200/200 with every tech possible, cause u dont have any map control, and you have 20 useless phoenixes and no robo tech so any tech switch from zerg = gg. | ||
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TigerKarl
1757 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On October 31 2011 20:24 DrGreen wrote: Right now phoenixes are totally useless vs muta, unless u opened with 2 stargate. Increasing their range by 1 would be better idea then adding some Tempest shit. Pros tosses doing something wrong all the time then. I think that what u'r missing is that pros zergs muta control is better then any diamond/master player on ladder, and perfectly controlled mutas > perfectly controlled protoss army. how the hell phoenixes are useless vs. muta? You scout spire, add 2 stargates and own mutas, that's how simple is that. If you trying to build phoexes just from 1 stargate then think why should you counter unit in which zerg is investing everything. Zerg invests 100% of their gas into mutas so you can't expect to counter them with few phoenixes. I am not even talking that blind 2 stargate is a hard counter to mutas, because zerg won't outnumber you if you keep fighting his mutas. | ||
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LAN-f34r
New Zealand2099 Posts
On October 31 2011 20:31 DrGreen wrote: even if u manage to get ~15 stalkers to defend ur 2 bases and start massing phoenixes, then when u have those 15-20 phoenixes, suddenly your opponent is on 4+ bases 200/200 with every tech possible, cause u dont have any map control, and you have 20 useless phoenixes and no robo tech so any tech switch from zerg = gg. 15 Phoenixes? Calm down. Maybe you might get that many if there is a terror storm of doom of mutas coming oyur way and he is still making them. But even 5 or so makes it SOO much easier to defend. The mobility allows you to push out when you have canons, so that phoenix can defend counters or help the push. Also: archons dominate any muta based army in a direct fight, so archon + mobile defence force. But idk. P is far from my best race. | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
Think of the reaper: it has its specialties, but you cant mass it because you cant use it i a real 200/200 fight. the only difference between the reaper and the mutalisk is that he is not that quick when you want to retreat, and that you dont need air attacks. i think mutas should get less health or permanent defense should get a bonus attack to light units | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10881 Posts
On October 31 2011 20:48 graNite wrote: It is so easy: mutas are a harassment unit, so they should be countered very easy by many other units the other player has. Think of the reaper: it has its specialties, but you cant mass it because you cant use it i a real 200/200 fight. the only difference between the reaper and the mutalisk is that he is not that quick when you want to retreat, and that you dont need air attacks. i think mutas should get less health or permanent defense should get a bonus attack to light units WTF? Are you on Drugs? In what universe can you compare a 50/25 Reaper to a 100/100 Mutalisk? | ||
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Herculix
United States946 Posts
i have never seen a situation where mutas won something in any match up because the unit is just that strong and no other reason, it almost always involves poor decision making by the opponent or superior micro and decision making by the mutalisk player. usually it's a combination of both. | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
On October 31 2011 20:51 Velr wrote: WTF? Are you on Drugs? In what universe can you compare a 50/25 Reaper to a 100/100 Mutalisk? they are both a harassment unit, that can easily get into an enemie's base, kills workers fast, costs gas and which is supposed to be not in your main army composition. how can you not compare these two? | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On October 31 2011 20:33 Alpina wrote: how the hell phoenixes are useless vs. muta? You scout spire, add 2 stargates and own mutas, that's how simple is that. If you trying to build phoexes just from 1 stargate then think why should you counter unit in which zerg is investing everything. Zerg invests 100% of their gas into mutas so you can't expect to counter them with few phoenixes. I am not even talking that blind 2 stargate is a hard counter to mutas, because zerg won't outnumber you if you keep fighting his mutas. Reactively adding 2 stargates for phoenixes is a terrible idea and a lot of the pros agree. If u do tht, the mutas have already done its job. If u don't pre-emptively have a stargate, phoenix is definitely not the way to go. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 31 2011 18:28 sluggaslamoo wrote: The problem is that the counter to 1 Stargate play is more Mutas. Which doesn't make much sense and without air-superiority Toss can't do drops. Honestly though I think Phoenix's should just have splash (give Archon bigger splash radius and more damage to light as well), because the Tempest is just another boring A-move unit. The Phoenix is fine. The thing that kills Protoss air in ZvP airbattles is that it is hard for protoss to get enough phoenix to combat the amount of mutas if he his caught without double stargate. Also Archon larger splash... Are you serious? The Archon has already been buffed to be a solid composition unit, although it is a morph of energyless/detected templars, so it basically should be costinefficient to morph them without using the templars... This whole thread is just a whinefest about Protoss being unable to counter a huge commitment by zerg (20+mutas) when caught completly without a solid composition against it. To emphasize on this: Ways to get this mutacomposition: 1) Go ling/muta right from the start and take the huge risk of dying to nearly any standard aggression, or getting early blindcountered by a commited airopening 2) safe a ton of money, trade armies (so zerg is ahead, because he traded armies, but isn't broke) and then produce a ton of mutalisks of your banked money+income, while the opponent only spends income. case 1) is a lucky cheese if it works, nothing more. Protoss can do similar stuff as well, f.e FFE into double colossus production. If Zerg doesn't kill him early or blindly rushes air, he will get wiped out pretty hardcore. case 2) zerg gets an advantage and invests it in mutalisks. Not the mutalisks kill the protoss, the advantage does. If zerg and Protoss both are broke at the time after the trade, zerg can't get enough mutalisks up vs a standard mid-lategame gateway army to be efficient. Again there is a Protoss equivalent to this. If Protoss gets an army advantage with blink stalkers and just keeps attacking with them, they will win every engagement without taking huge losses, because a blink stalker composition dies all together at once, or not at all, which is the case when they are simply outmatching the zerg army. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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Manimal_pro
Romania991 Posts
On October 31 2011 20:51 Velr wrote: WTF? Are you on Drugs? In what universe can you compare a 50/25 Reaper to a 100/100 Mutalisk? reapers cost 25 gas? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 31 2011 21:01 graNite wrote: they are both a harassment unit, that can easily get into an enemie's base, kills workers fast, costs gas and which is supposed to be not in your main army composition. how can you not compare these two? so? Mutas get hardcountered in even (cost-) numbers by phoenix, Archon, blink stalker, Carrier. Mutas lose to stalkers. I'm not even sure if 50Mutas can beat 50sentries with guardian shields... (if you remember that old husky beta video about 100 mutalisks vs 100 sentries, sentries demolished the mutas, but I'm not sure if that was before the sentry damage nerf from 8-->6, so could be kind of even now... Still sentries will usually have better upgrades and a sentry costs less than a mutalisk) Templars are a great addition to any army that wants to fight mutalisks. Out of all the Protoss units, only the VoidRay (out of all the antiair units from protoss) is bad in direct engagements against mutalisks costwise, so what is the problem? The game works exactly is you want it to work. Muta=HarassUnit-->loses to nearly any Protoss unit in an equal engagement. (which means if costwise compared) | ||
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