|
On October 31 2011 21:10 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 20:33 Alpina wrote:On October 31 2011 20:24 DrGreen wrote:On October 31 2011 20:16 ILoveCoffee wrote:On October 31 2011 20:00 DrGreen wrote:
Increasing Phoenix range to 5 would be totally enough buff if blizzard consider buffing P vs muta. That would make phoenixes too good vs mutas. It gives a lot of micro room for the phoenixes so that they are never hit by mutas. Right now phoenixes are totally useless vs muta, unless u opened with 2 stargate. Increasing their range by 1 would be better idea then adding some Tempest shit. On October 31 2011 20:19 Phlatline wrote:
[...]
And if Toss can't deal with mutas with what they got they're doing something wrong... Pros tosses doing something wrong all the time then. I think that what u'r missing is that pros zergs muta control is better then any diamond/master player on ladder, and perfectly controlled mutas > perfectly controlled protoss army. how the hell phoenixes are useless vs. muta? You scout spire, add 2 stargates and own mutas, that's how simple is that. If you trying to build phoexes just from 1 stargate then think why should you counter unit in which zerg is investing everything. Zerg invests 100% of their gas into mutas so you can't expect to counter them with few phoenixes. I am not even talking that blind 2 stargate is a hard counter to mutas, because zerg won't outnumber you if you keep fighting his mutas. Reactively adding 2 stargates for phoenixes is a terrible idea and a lot of the pros agree. If u do tht, the mutas have already done its job. If u don't pre-emptively have a stargate, phoenix is definitely not the way to go.
then scout and act accordingly. People are complaining about phoenixes being shit against mutas when they start adding stargates after mutas already in their mineral lines..
|
Overpowered in WOL?
You should see in BW, those damned things were surgical knifes.
|
On October 31 2011 21:21 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 21:01 graNite wrote:On October 31 2011 20:51 Velr wrote:On October 31 2011 20:48 graNite wrote:
It is so easy: mutas are a harassment unit, so they should be countered very easy by many other units the other player has.
Think of the reaper: it has its specialties, but you cant mass it because you cant use it i a real 200/200 fight. the only difference between the reaper and the mutalisk is that he is not that quick when you want to retreat, and that you dont need air attacks.
i think mutas should get less health or permanent defense should get a bonus attack to light units WTF? Are you on Drugs? In what universe can you compare a 50/25 Reaper to a 100/100 Mutalisk? they are both a harassment unit, that can easily get into an enemie's base, kills workers fast, costs gas and which is supposed to be not in your main army composition. how can you not compare these two? so? Mutas get hardcountered in even (cost-) numbers by phoenix, Archon, blink stalker, Carrier. Mutas lose to stalkers. I'm not even sure if 50Mutas can beat 50sentries with guardian shields... (if you remember that old husky beta video about 100 mutalisks vs 100 sentries, sentries demolished the mutas, but I'm not sure if that was before the sentry damage nerf from 8-->6, so could be kind of even now... Still sentries will usually have better upgrades and a sentry costs less than a mutalisk) Out of all the Protoss units, only the VoidRay (out of all the antiair units from protoss) is bad in direct engagements against mutalisks costwise, so what is the problem? The game works exactly is you want it to work. Muta=HarassUnit-->loses to nearly any Protoss unit in an equal engagement. (which means if costwise compared)
Except that due to Zergs production they will always have so many more than any of the units you mentioned, so you will never have a "cost-numbers" engagment. There will always be much more army value in that fight for the zerg. The only exception to that is blink stalkers, which can match the muta cloud in numbers, however once a certain mass has been reached, the mutas will still win, because they have a bounce attack. Once there are enough mutas for the bounce shot to be a one-hit-kill it's lights out for the stalkers. That's why mutas are, in my opinion, OP in ZvP.
On October 31 2011 21:29 antilyon wrote:
Overpowered in WOL?
You should see in BW, those damned things were surgical knifes.
Difference is, in BW you used 11 stacked mutas for harass, and it required micro. In SC2, any zerg can easily mass up 30+ mutas, magic box them, and kill almost anything.
Templars are a great addition to any army that wants to fight mutalisks.
|
On October 31 2011 21:19 Cheerio wrote:
The mutalisks are fine but there are some strategies with them that force very predictive game flows. For example in zvt if you go mutas your opponent HAS to get marines, nothing else effectively counters marines at high level of play. If you get marines he get banes, if you get banes he gets tanks... You see the point: there is no variety in unit choices. In pvz early muta harass and map control gives zerg a lot of freedom to macro up, so there are a lot of builds that target to hit the zerg before the mutas can be out. Basicly too many p's feel (I am one myself) they are forced to push very early. This counters the whole muta play completely but makes the mu very predictable.
Nope, that is wrong. Thors are great vs mutalisks on prolevel, that's why we see so many players mech in TvZ recently (in the GSL).
Also it's not that Terran gets Marines to counter Mutas. Terran builds Marines because they counter every nonsplash (nonflaggship) unit in the game and tanks can keep them safe against those.
By going Mutas Zerg can at least harass a Terran, get mapcontrol and pin Terran a little bit.
That's why Terran can build Tank/Marine against every zerg composition before Broodlords are out.
Tanks kill the Infestors and Banelings, Marines kill everything else. Only big numbers of Broodlords are costefficient against both in direct battles.
|
yeah i couldnt believe they were trying to make it easier for races to counter, if that protoss video holds true then we will never see another muta in ZvP, ever (its only alpha though so its bound to change in power)
|
thors dont counter mutas (properly microed) they break even at best
|
PvZ I think 20+ muta is an issue for P. I think in theory the Phoenix was supposed to counter mutas but it only really works out in the 1-20ish muta ball range. After that the mutas begin to win over Phoenix due to Zerg mechanics.
Instead of getting the tempest, I like the idea of giving the pheonix a small AoE upgrade in the fleet beacon.
Seems like a better solution than a slow lumbering T3 unit that the muta ball will just fly around anyways.
|
On October 31 2011 21:36 Cheerio wrote:
thors dont counter mutas (properly microed) they break even at best
u have to add marines.
|
hmm i wonder if the tempest would be as effective if the mutas magic boxed against them, which zerg would do against any splash units.
And no i dont think mutas are OP. On 2 bases u have hardly enough gas to support mass mutas + u might have to spend gas to def early aggression. Muta rushing isnt really viable as well, stalker count would just shut it down or mayb just cannons.
It just becomes a problem when it is a mid game tech switch, where the zerg is at least on 3 bases. And toss fail to scout. If T or P lets a situation like mass mutas on 4 bases happens they deserve to lose. Its like how any zerg that allows a toss or terran to max out on army count before him deserves to lose. dont let such a situation happen
|
On October 31 2011 21:29 HaXXspetten wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 21:21 Big J wrote:On October 31 2011 21:01 graNite wrote:On October 31 2011 20:51 Velr wrote:On October 31 2011 20:48 graNite wrote:
It is so easy: mutas are a harassment unit, so they should be countered very easy by many other units the other player has.
Think of the reaper: it has its specialties, but you cant mass it because you cant use it i a real 200/200 fight. the only difference between the reaper and the mutalisk is that he is not that quick when you want to retreat, and that you dont need air attacks.
i think mutas should get less health or permanent defense should get a bonus attack to light units WTF? Are you on Drugs? In what universe can you compare a 50/25 Reaper to a 100/100 Mutalisk? they are both a harassment unit, that can easily get into an enemie's base, kills workers fast, costs gas and which is supposed to be not in your main army composition. how can you not compare these two? so? Mutas get hardcountered in even (cost-) numbers by phoenix, Archon, blink stalker, Carrier. Mutas lose to stalkers. I'm not even sure if 50Mutas can beat 50sentries with guardian shields... (if you remember that old husky beta video about 100 mutalisks vs 100 sentries, sentries demolished the mutas, but I'm not sure if that was before the sentry damage nerf from 8-->6, so could be kind of even now... Still sentries will usually have better upgrades and a sentry costs less than a mutalisk) Out of all the Protoss units, only the VoidRay (out of all the antiair units from protoss) is bad in direct engagements against mutalisks costwise, so what is the problem? The game works exactly is you want it to work. Muta=HarassUnit-->loses to nearly any Protoss unit in an equal engagement. (which means if costwise compared) Except that due to Zergs production they will always have so many more than any of the units you mentioned, so you will never have a "cost-numbers" engagment. There will always be much more army value in that fight for the zerg. The only exception to that is blink stalkers, which can match the muta cloud in numbers, however once a certain mass has been reached, the mutas will still win, because they have a bounce attack. Once there are enough mutas for the bounce shot to be a one-hit-kill it's lights out for the stalkers. That's why mutas are, in my opinion, OP in ZvP.
If you can't match zergs production, it means that he at least had a temporary income advantage.
Then it's not the mutalisk, that is your problem, but the economy. You lost the game somewhere else. And zerg built mutalisks, because he is annoyed by your "bunker in my base until I'm maxed" play and now kills you costinefficient, but he doesn't care, because win is win.
And though I haven't tested the maxed scenarios (100stalkers vs 100mutas on full upgrades), I'm pretty certain that the stalkers will win easily, probably even without blink micro.
And then apart from muta 3/3 being an unrealistic scenario, Stalkers 4 armor on 3/3 completly deny bounce 2 and 3 of fully upgraded mutas. (which do 4 and 1,3333333 damage)
So in a realistic scenario in which neither party got an advantage, there should be like 3/2times stalkers with some armor and weapon upgrades vs mutalisks with hardly any upgrades.
But to acknowledge that, Protoss would first of all have to acknowledge that their PvZ play relies on aggressive play of lower economy, and therefore they will always lose against a competent zerg, that wins the first engagement. Mutalisks are just one of the easier ways to end a game, after getting terribly ahead.
|
On October 31 2011 21:36 Cheerio wrote:
thors dont counter mutas (properly microed) they break even at best
Yeah, and all those zergs in the GSL that prefer Roach vs Thorheavymech are just dumb, because mutas would easily take out pure thor...
I guess you should call Nestea. There is really no reason to lose against scrubs like MVP, that rely on Thor antiair, anymore, as the solution is soooo easy. More Mutalisks. I'm pretty sure non of the Korean Code S Zergs has ever tried that.
Better make a thread o nit. Cheerios anti Mech build: Get a Spire, pump as many mutas as possible and fly them into thors, because they will obviously win!
|
Some might already have pointed it out, but here's my take on the issue:
HotS is not a new balancing of WoL, but rather a new "game". Meaning that the changes are so great that the play will be totally different in most MUs.
Take SC1 vs BW for example. It totally changed the game. It wasn't some much as balancing of SC1, as creating a whole the field of possiblilites.
|
On October 31 2011 21:39 Champ24 wrote:
PvZ I think 20+ muta is an issue for P. I think in theory the Phoenix was supposed to counter mutas but it only really works out in the 1-20ish muta ball range. After that the mutas begin to win over Phoenix due to Zerg mechanics.
Instead of getting the tempest, I like the idea of giving the pheonix a small AoE upgrade in the fleet beacon.
Seems like a better solution than a slow lumbering T3 unit that the muta ball will just fly around anyways.
Wasn't something likes this present in early stages of the game? I think I remember a overcharge ability for Phoenix which lets it shot 5 times instead of 1 for a short time but afterwards it has to cool down and cannot move. Seems the way to go, I'd say.
|
On October 31 2011 22:16 aklambda wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 21:39 Champ24 wrote:
PvZ I think 20+ muta is an issue for P. I think in theory the Phoenix was supposed to counter mutas but it only really works out in the 1-20ish muta ball range. After that the mutas begin to win over Phoenix due to Zerg mechanics.
Instead of getting the tempest, I like the idea of giving the pheonix a small AoE upgrade in the fleet beacon.
Seems like a better solution than a slow lumbering T3 unit that the muta ball will just fly around anyways. Wasn't something likes this present in early stages of the game? I think I remember a overcharge ability for Phoenix which lets it shot 5 times instead of 1 for a short time but afterwards it has to cool down and cannot move. Seems the way to go, I'd say.
Well, the phoenix also was an extremly slow moving air to air fighter and overcharge was abbandoned, because it was too easy to dodge and afterwards one could just fly in and kill all the phoenixes. It also led to a coinflip balance when overcharge did hit, because even then, if you small amounts of units survived it, Protoss lost all phoenixes in exchange as well.
(also as far as I remember, overcharge would just target every air unit in close-medium proximity, not make it shoot faster)
And the overall utility of the Phoenix as slow fighter without graviton beam was just very small.
|
On October 25 2011 18:22 Brotocol wrote:
* They justified it in TvZ as magic box being too much for Thors to handle. I don't agree with that assessment. Thor + marine micro is enough imho.
* Protoss "doesn't really need any more units" so they're giving P players something to fill the strange scenario of "40-50 mutalisks." I don't agree with their reasoning either.
I'm primarily a P player nowadays, and I think muta is perfectly dangerous right now without being OP.
You said it yourself. Thor + marines.
They want mech to be a viable option. As it is now, it's a VERY thin line to walk when opening mech TvZ.
|
they kill turrets way too fast, you cant repair them fast enough when the mutas are in big enough numbers,
and after that you lose 10 20 of your workers
|
On October 31 2011 22:32 malaki wrote:
they kill turrets way too fast, you cant repair them fast enough when the mutas are in big enough numbers,
and after that you lose 10 20 of your workers
Maybe because your 300-400cost defense fights an 3000/3000 cost army? That's why good terrans just have 2-3 troops of marines all over the place and just stim in, once the turrets start to fall.
But ofc, I you like 10min pushes and lose all marines/tanks without killing his mutas, his mutanumbers will slowly get out of control.
|
On October 31 2011 21:25 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 21:10 blooblooblahblah wrote:On October 31 2011 20:33 Alpina wrote:On October 31 2011 20:24 DrGreen wrote:On October 31 2011 20:16 ILoveCoffee wrote:On October 31 2011 20:00 DrGreen wrote:
Increasing Phoenix range to 5 would be totally enough buff if blizzard consider buffing P vs muta. That would make phoenixes too good vs mutas. It gives a lot of micro room for the phoenixes so that they are never hit by mutas. Right now phoenixes are totally useless vs muta, unless u opened with 2 stargate. Increasing their range by 1 would be better idea then adding some Tempest shit. On October 31 2011 20:19 Phlatline wrote:
[...]
And if Toss can't deal with mutas with what they got they're doing something wrong... Pros tosses doing something wrong all the time then. I think that what u'r missing is that pros zergs muta control is better then any diamond/master player on ladder, and perfectly controlled mutas > perfectly controlled protoss army. how the hell phoenixes are useless vs. muta? You scout spire, add 2 stargates and own mutas, that's how simple is that. If you trying to build phoexes just from 1 stargate then think why should you counter unit in which zerg is investing everything. Zerg invests 100% of their gas into mutas so you can't expect to counter them with few phoenixes. I am not even talking that blind 2 stargate is a hard counter to mutas, because zerg won't outnumber you if you keep fighting his mutas. Reactively adding 2 stargates for phoenixes is a terrible idea and a lot of the pros agree. If u do tht, the mutas have already done its job. If u don't pre-emptively have a stargate, phoenix is definitely not the way to go. then scout and act accordingly. People are complaining about phoenixes being shit against mutas when they start adding stargates after mutas already in their mineral lines..
Which means ur reactively going phoenix which is bad...
|
On October 31 2011 22:40 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 21:25 Alpina wrote:On October 31 2011 21:10 blooblooblahblah wrote:On October 31 2011 20:33 Alpina wrote:On October 31 2011 20:24 DrGreen wrote:On October 31 2011 20:16 ILoveCoffee wrote:On October 31 2011 20:00 DrGreen wrote:
Increasing Phoenix range to 5 would be totally enough buff if blizzard consider buffing P vs muta. That would make phoenixes too good vs mutas. It gives a lot of micro room for the phoenixes so that they are never hit by mutas. Right now phoenixes are totally useless vs muta, unless u opened with 2 stargate. Increasing their range by 1 would be better idea then adding some Tempest shit. On October 31 2011 20:19 Phlatline wrote:
[...]
And if Toss can't deal with mutas with what they got they're doing something wrong... Pros tosses doing something wrong all the time then. I think that what u'r missing is that pros zergs muta control is better then any diamond/master player on ladder, and perfectly controlled mutas > perfectly controlled protoss army. how the hell phoenixes are useless vs. muta? You scout spire, add 2 stargates and own mutas, that's how simple is that. If you trying to build phoexes just from 1 stargate then think why should you counter unit in which zerg is investing everything. Zerg invests 100% of their gas into mutas so you can't expect to counter them with few phoenixes. I am not even talking that blind 2 stargate is a hard counter to mutas, because zerg won't outnumber you if you keep fighting his mutas. Reactively adding 2 stargates for phoenixes is a terrible idea and a lot of the pros agree. If u do tht, the mutas have already done its job. If u don't pre-emptively have a stargate, phoenix is definitely not the way to go. then scout and act accordingly. People are complaining about phoenixes being shit against mutas when they start adding stargates after mutas already in their mineral lines.. Which means ur reactively going phoenix which is bad...
either fast 1 stargate phoenix or halliucination. What's wrong with them?
|
On October 31 2011 22:40 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 21:25 Alpina wrote:On October 31 2011 21:10 blooblooblahblah wrote:On October 31 2011 20:33 Alpina wrote:On October 31 2011 20:24 DrGreen wrote:On October 31 2011 20:16 ILoveCoffee wrote:On October 31 2011 20:00 DrGreen wrote:
Increasing Phoenix range to 5 would be totally enough buff if blizzard consider buffing P vs muta. That would make phoenixes too good vs mutas. It gives a lot of micro room for the phoenixes so that they are never hit by mutas. Right now phoenixes are totally useless vs muta, unless u opened with 2 stargate. Increasing their range by 1 would be better idea then adding some Tempest shit. On October 31 2011 20:19 Phlatline wrote:
[...]
And if Toss can't deal with mutas with what they got they're doing something wrong... Pros tosses doing something wrong all the time then. I think that what u'r missing is that pros zergs muta control is better then any diamond/master player on ladder, and perfectly controlled mutas > perfectly controlled protoss army. how the hell phoenixes are useless vs. muta? You scout spire, add 2 stargates and own mutas, that's how simple is that. If you trying to build phoexes just from 1 stargate then think why should you counter unit in which zerg is investing everything. Zerg invests 100% of their gas into mutas so you can't expect to counter them with few phoenixes. I am not even talking that blind 2 stargate is a hard counter to mutas, because zerg won't outnumber you if you keep fighting his mutas. Reactively adding 2 stargates for phoenixes is a terrible idea and a lot of the pros agree. If u do tht, the mutas have already done its job. If u don't pre-emptively have a stargate, phoenix is definitely not the way to go. then scout and act accordingly. People are complaining about phoenixes being shit against mutas when they start adding stargates after mutas already in their mineral lines.. Which means ur reactively going phoenix which is bad...
Absolutely, not only will you have to sacrifice ground army to get a sizeable number but it hogs all your chronoboost as well. If you don't see anything but lings you have to assume muta play, if you misread when scouting and the mutas take you by surprise...get blink and hope to god he's bad and doesn't let you turtle to 200
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
