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SC2ShoWTimE
Germany722 Posts
protoss is moving out? basetrade => zerg wins protoss stays in his base? expand everywhere and defend with spore/spinecrowler => win not saying it´s always like that, but on the large maps it just seems impossible to win vs mutas because you will never win the basetrade and defending until 200/200 won´t win you the game. at least that´s what i noticed when watching mutalisk play in pvz. | ||
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mlspmatt
Canada404 Posts
By the time you can leave your base Zerg has the map and its GG. We tend to watch professional play and say "They handle Mutas just fine, whats the problem?" Its the reason why game balance can't be designed purely around pro level play. 99.9999% of players aren't pro. And they are the ones having trouble with Muta. | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
On November 01 2011 04:06 ShoWTimE94 wrote: mutalisks in pvz are just... awful. protoss is moving out? basetrade => zerg wins protoss stays in his base? expand everywhere and defend with spore/spinecrowler => win not saying it´s always like that, but on the large maps it just seems impossible to win vs mutas because you will never win the basetrade and defending until 200/200 won´t win you the game. at least that´s what i noticed when watching mutalisk play in pvz. Couldn't you defend on 3 bases till you got 200/200 including a mothership and recall everytime you need it? | ||
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
On November 01 2011 04:13 mlspmatt wrote: Terran has a Muta problem at lower masters diamond levels. Once they get 20+, your stuck running around trying to defend everything, your making a ton of turrets, leaving marines everywhere and you can't leave your base. Thors are too slow to get around and get stuck all the time between buildings. By the time you can leave your base Zerg has the map and its GG. We tend to watch professional play and say "They handle Mutas just fine, whats the problem?" Its the reason why game balance can't be designed purely around pro level play. 99.9999% of players aren't pro. And they are the ones having trouble with Muta. i don't play zerg, but if someone is man handling you that bad chances they are actually just better than you. when the mutas first come, once your turrets are up, just go fucking attack him...don't sit in your base and do nothing. | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
On November 01 2011 04:13 mlspmatt wrote: Terran has a Muta problem at lower masters diamond levels. Once they get 20+, your stuck running around trying to defend everything, your making a ton of turrets, leaving marines everywhere and you can't leave your base. Thors are too slow to get around and get stuck all the time between buildings. By the time you can leave your base Zerg has the map and its GG. We tend to watch professional play and say "They handle Mutas just fine, whats the problem?" Its the reason why game balance can't be designed purely around pro level play. 99.9999% of players aren't pro. And they are the ones having trouble with Muta. but it's not really a balance problem if it can be overcome by just playing a little bit better, unless your opponent is playing much worse than you and still winning. | ||
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galivet
288 Posts
You can use recall to defend, but recalled units can't attack for a few seconds after arrival -- it's so easy to feign a muta attack at a nexus and fly out once you force the expenditure of 75 nexus energy. Protoss has to see the muta swarm clearly inbound to a nexus to recall in time to swing a defensive army into position...and the mutas can still just immediately fly away. But that's literally the only new defensive ability that P will have until a few years after mutas are scouted when the first tempest comes out. Maybe a good solution will be to counter-harass with oracles -- it may force some mutas to remain on defense, and it gives the stargate something useful to do while the fleet beacon builds. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
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killamane
United States138 Posts
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pezit
Sweden302 Posts
On November 01 2011 04:13 mlspmatt wrote: Terran has a Muta problem at lower masters diamond levels. Once they get 20+, your stuck running around trying to defend everything, your making a ton of turrets, leaving marines everywhere and you can't leave your base. Thors are too slow to get around and get stuck all the time between buildings. By the time you can leave your base Zerg has the map and its GG. We tend to watch professional play and say "They handle Mutas just fine, whats the problem?" Its the reason why game balance can't be designed purely around pro level play. 99.9999% of players aren't pro. And they are the ones having trouble with Muta. It really doesn't matter what newbies have trouble with because they struggle with a lot of things that aren't broken, that's why they are newbies in the first place. I promise you that in gold and lower a 6pool wins you like 90% of the games, should we nerf that as well? The list would be fucking endless and the game would be totally ruined. | ||
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FreudianTrip
Switzerland1983 Posts
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iDrone
United States176 Posts
Same with mutas; no economic damage = Z in trouble Maybe base racing is always an option in lower leagues but high masters people won't allow that. They will get storm and extra cannons and hope that the mutas clump up on a cannon. Well placed storms+cannons = no base trade | ||
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
Toss counter? 2 Stargate and blink stalkers on a FFE ( blind counter, very hard to scout a Zerg without hallucinations). Builds like the "Bring home the combat" build (2 stargate to provoke a hydra den, to dbl robo) also counter this because you can crank up phoenix production. Phoenixes are an okay counter (rather expensive though) to mutas IF, and only if, you can get them out before there is a critical mass (20+). After that, hope for the best with blink stalkers and archons :/ | ||
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mlspmatt
Canada404 Posts
On November 01 2011 00:31 Big J wrote: yeah. Watch the GSL and learn. I'm not doing it, MVP does. MMA does. Happy does. GanZi does. This is the biggest problem with the thinking in our community. I''ve never, in any sport I've ever played, heard anyone compare my basketball game and what happens to pro level play. Never heard someone say, "Well I saw Lebron do it last night, so you should be able to do it too." Of course that's ridiculous. But in Starcraft, every day I hear "Well Mvp, Nestea, MC can do it so whats the problem?" Blizzard, thank god, don't just balance the game around what happens in code'S', they pay attention to the hundreds of thousands of non-professional players, who buy the game and allow Browder and company to have a job. | ||
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ForeverAzerG
United Kingdom101 Posts
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RevTiberius
Canada353 Posts
On November 01 2011 04:13 mlspmatt wrote: Terran has a Muta problem at lower masters diamond levels. Once they get 20+, your stuck running around trying to defend everything, your making a ton of turrets, leaving marines everywhere and you can't leave your base. Thors are too slow to get around and get stuck all the time between buildings. By the time you can leave your base Zerg has the map and its GG. We tend to watch professional play and say "They handle Mutas just fine, whats the problem?" Its the reason why game balance can't be designed purely around pro level play. 99.9999% of players aren't pro. And they are the ones having trouble with Muta. I was gonna write something here, but this post sums it up nicely. Especially the last paragraph I completely agree with | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
Personally I don't think mutas are a problem vs toss anyways as Archons and blink stalkers are insanely good vs them. But maybe it's me.... mothership was also a viable unit to use vs them lategame that many people had just started to figure out, but alas, that's gone. | ||
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malaki
Germany80 Posts
On November 01 2011 04:28 pezit wrote: It really doesn't matter what newbies have trouble with because they struggle with a lot of things that aren't broken, that's why they are newbies in the first place. I promise you that in gold and lower a 6pool wins you like 90% of the games, should we nerf that as well? The list would be fucking endless and the game would be totally ruined. lol youre terribly mistaken iff you think the gold silver and bronze players nowadays are that bad, they are not, they have poor mechanics most of the time but theyre not stupid | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
On November 01 2011 04:36 mlspmatt wrote: This is the biggest problem with the thinking in our community. I''ve never, in any sport I've ever played, heard anyone compare my basketball game and what happens to pro level play. Never heard someone say, "Well I saw Lebron do it last night, so you should be able to do it too." Of course that's ridiculous. But in Starcraft, every day I hear "Well Mvp, Nestea, MC can do it so whats the problem?" Blizzard, thank god, don't just balance the game around what happens in code'S', they pay attention to the hundreds of thousands of non-professional players, who buy the game and allow Browder and company to have a job. You also don't hear people going "the width of the hoop and the size of the ball needs to be changed because while micheal jordan can make the ball in the hoop quite often i just can't seem to do it, nba needs to balance basketball around us casual players, and not the pros." I'm sorry but why would they balance around the non professional players when balance at that level is so volatile due to how many things can be imbalanced or overcome by just playing a little bit better, while at the professional level is where balance is actually felt. | ||
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malaki
Germany80 Posts
On November 01 2011 04:36 ForeverAzerG wrote: people make stupid threads like this then get mutas speed nerfed and what not they dont need a speed nerf, they need to die faster, especially when flying into 2,3 turrets | ||
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mlspmatt
Canada404 Posts
On November 01 2011 04:28 pezit wrote: It really doesn't matter what newbies have trouble with because they struggle with a lot of things that aren't broken, that's why they are newbies in the first place. I promise you that in gold and lower a 6pool wins you like 90% of the games, should we nerf that as well? The list would be fucking endless and the game would be totally ruined. Again. Same problem. Masters players who are in the top 5% of players, and are excellent players -are noobs cause they aren't on TV traveling the globe playing professional starcraft. | ||
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