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[D]Are mutalisks overpowered in WOL?? - Page 27

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SC2ShoWTimE
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany722 Posts
October 31 2011 19:06 GMT
#521
mutalisks in pvz are just... awful.
protoss is moving out? basetrade => zerg wins
protoss stays in his base? expand everywhere and defend with spore/spinecrowler => win

not saying it´s always like that, but on the large maps it just seems impossible to win vs mutas because you will never win the basetrade and defending until 200/200 won´t win you the game. at least that´s what i noticed when watching mutalisk play in pvz.
Progamer
mlspmatt
Profile Joined October 2011
Canada404 Posts
October 31 2011 19:13 GMT
#522
Terran has a Muta problem at lower masters diamond levels. Once they get 20+, your stuck running around trying to defend everything, your making a ton of turrets, leaving marines everywhere and you can't leave your base. Thors are too slow to get around and get stuck all the time between buildings.

By the time you can leave your base Zerg has the map and its GG. We tend to watch professional play and say "They handle Mutas just fine, whats the problem?"

Its the reason why game balance can't be designed purely around pro level play. 99.9999% of players aren't pro. And they are the ones having trouble with Muta.
decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
October 31 2011 19:17 GMT
#523
On November 01 2011 04:06 ShoWTimE94 wrote:
mutalisks in pvz are just... awful.
protoss is moving out? basetrade => zerg wins
protoss stays in his base? expand everywhere and defend with spore/spinecrowler => win

not saying it´s always like that, but on the large maps it just seems impossible to win vs mutas because you will never win the basetrade and defending until 200/200 won´t win you the game. at least that´s what i noticed when watching mutalisk play in pvz.

Couldn't you defend on 3 bases till you got 200/200 including a mothership and recall everytime you need it?
Silidons
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2813 Posts
October 31 2011 19:17 GMT
#524
On November 01 2011 04:13 mlspmatt wrote:
Terran has a Muta problem at lower masters diamond levels. Once they get 20+, your stuck running around trying to defend everything, your making a ton of turrets, leaving marines everywhere and you can't leave your base. Thors are too slow to get around and get stuck all the time between buildings.

By the time you can leave your base Zerg has the map and its GG. We tend to watch professional play and say "They handle Mutas just fine, whats the problem?"

Its the reason why game balance can't be designed purely around pro level play. 99.9999% of players aren't pro. And they are the ones having trouble with Muta.

i don't play zerg, but if someone is man handling you that bad chances they are actually just better than you. when the mutas first come, once your turrets are up, just go fucking attack him...don't sit in your base and do nothing.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon Bonaparte
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
October 31 2011 19:19 GMT
#525
On November 01 2011 04:13 mlspmatt wrote:
Terran has a Muta problem at lower masters diamond levels. Once they get 20+, your stuck running around trying to defend everything, your making a ton of turrets, leaving marines everywhere and you can't leave your base. Thors are too slow to get around and get stuck all the time between buildings.

By the time you can leave your base Zerg has the map and its GG. We tend to watch professional play and say "They handle Mutas just fine, whats the problem?"

Its the reason why game balance can't be designed purely around pro level play. 99.9999% of players aren't pro. And they are the ones having trouble with Muta.



but it's not really a balance problem if it can be overcome by just playing a little bit better, unless your opponent is playing much worse than you and still winning.
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
galivet
Profile Joined February 2011
288 Posts
October 31 2011 19:21 GMT
#526
Even in HotS mutas will still be a pain in PvZ.

You can use recall to defend, but recalled units can't attack for a few seconds after arrival -- it's so easy to feign a muta attack at a nexus and fly out once you force the expenditure of 75 nexus energy. Protoss has to see the muta swarm clearly inbound to a nexus to recall in time to swing a defensive army into position...and the mutas can still just immediately fly away.

But that's literally the only new defensive ability that P will have until a few years after mutas are scouted when the first tempest comes out.

Maybe a good solution will be to counter-harass with oracles -- it may force some mutas to remain on defense, and it gives the stargate something useful to do while the fleet beacon builds.
Arisen
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2382 Posts
October 31 2011 19:24 GMT
#527
It's just the approach blizzard takes to balance. Is unit A good? Then make unit B who totally shits on unit A. The same logic can be seen with the grab spell vs colossus, immortals versus ultras, etc.
"If you're not angry, you're not paying attention"
killamane
Profile Joined May 2010
United States138 Posts
October 31 2011 19:26 GMT
#528
i hope Dustin B reads this thread
pezit
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden302 Posts
October 31 2011 19:28 GMT
#529
On November 01 2011 04:13 mlspmatt wrote:
Terran has a Muta problem at lower masters diamond levels. Once they get 20+, your stuck running around trying to defend everything, your making a ton of turrets, leaving marines everywhere and you can't leave your base. Thors are too slow to get around and get stuck all the time between buildings.

By the time you can leave your base Zerg has the map and its GG. We tend to watch professional play and say "They handle Mutas just fine, whats the problem?"

Its the reason why game balance can't be designed purely around pro level play. 99.9999% of players aren't pro. And they are the ones having trouble with Muta.


It really doesn't matter what newbies have trouble with because they struggle with a lot of things that aren't broken, that's why they are newbies in the first place. I promise you that in gold and lower a 6pool wins you like 90% of the games, should we nerf that as well? The list would be fucking endless and the game would be totally ruined.

FreudianTrip
Profile Joined July 2011
Switzerland1983 Posts
October 31 2011 19:30 GMT
#530
Gold player signing in who wins every game the other player 6 pools thanks.
iDrone
Profile Joined December 2010
United States176 Posts
October 31 2011 19:34 GMT
#531
mutas are only good if you can do damage.. its like having your whole strategy revolve around baneling drops - if you don't get any harass off and Protoss get 3 base, Z is in trouble.
Same with mutas; no economic damage = Z in trouble
Maybe base racing is always an option in lower leagues but high masters people won't allow that. They will get storm and extra cannons and hope that the mutas clump up on a cannon.
Well placed storms+cannons = no base trade
Patate
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada441 Posts
October 31 2011 19:35 GMT
#532
a good Zerg can have 14 mutas in your base by the 10 minutes mark, along with a spine crawler wall to defend against a 6gate push.

Toss counter? 2 Stargate and blink stalkers on a FFE ( blind counter, very hard to scout a Zerg without hallucinations). Builds like the "Bring home the combat" build (2 stargate to provoke a hydra den, to dbl robo) also counter this because you can crank up phoenix production.

Phoenixes are an okay counter (rather expensive though) to mutas IF, and only if, you can get them out before there is a critical mass (20+). After that, hope for the best with blink stalkers and archons :/
Dead game.
mlspmatt
Profile Joined October 2011
Canada404 Posts
October 31 2011 19:36 GMT
#533
On November 01 2011 00:31 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 01 2011 00:21 malaki wrote:
On October 31 2011 22:38 Big J wrote:
On October 31 2011 22:32 malaki wrote:
they kill turrets way too fast, you cant repair them fast enough when the mutas are in big enough numbers,
and after that you lose 10 20 of your workers


Maybe because your 300-400cost defense fights an 3000/3000 cost army? That's why good terrans just have 2-3 troops of marines all over the place and just stim in, once the turrets start to fall.
But ofc, I you like 10min pushes and lose all marines/tanks without killing his mutas, his mutanumbers will slowly get out of control.



not 30 15+ are enough to 1shot turrets, and turrets should hard counter muta balls


you know how many marines you need to kill 30 mutalisks?

30 mutalisks kill 20 marines with only losing 5 mutas

so you're gonna keep 20 marine balls at all your bases all the time?

yeah. Watch the GSL and learn. I'm not doing it, MVP does. MMA does. Happy does. GanZi does.

This is the biggest problem with the thinking in our community. I''ve never, in any sport I've ever played, heard anyone compare my basketball game and what happens to pro level play.

Never heard someone say, "Well I saw Lebron do it last night, so you should be able to do it too."

Of course that's ridiculous.

But in Starcraft, every day I hear "Well Mvp, Nestea, MC can do it so whats the problem?"

Blizzard, thank god, don't just balance the game around what happens in code'S', they pay attention to the hundreds of thousands of non-professional players, who buy the game and allow Browder and company to have a job.



ForeverAzerG
Profile Joined June 2011
United Kingdom101 Posts
October 31 2011 19:36 GMT
#534
people make stupid threads like this then get mutas speed nerfed and what not
RevTiberius
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada353 Posts
October 31 2011 19:37 GMT
#535
On November 01 2011 04:13 mlspmatt wrote:
Terran has a Muta problem at lower masters diamond levels. Once they get 20+, your stuck running around trying to defend everything, your making a ton of turrets, leaving marines everywhere and you can't leave your base. Thors are too slow to get around and get stuck all the time between buildings.

By the time you can leave your base Zerg has the map and its GG. We tend to watch professional play and say "They handle Mutas just fine, whats the problem?"

Its the reason why game balance can't be designed purely around pro level play. 99.9999% of players aren't pro. And they are the ones having trouble with Muta.


I was gonna write something here, but this post sums it up nicely. Especially the last paragraph I completely agree with
Teaching Chess to a Starcraft 2 Grandmaster: http://revtiberius.blogspot.ca
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-31 19:39:23
October 31 2011 19:38 GMT
#536
The only reason mutalisk are an issue for Protoss is that the Phoenix is only a viable counter to an extent. Mass phoenix is actually an insanely good counter to mass mutalisk despite what people are saying, IF the Zerg doesn't get infestors or corrupters. The only problem is that it's stupid not to. Get a few fungals on those phoenix and suddenly the phoenix are all dead - and can't be reproduced quickly enough. Corrupters are TICKLED by mass phoenix with phoenix doing like 8 dmg per shot or something ridiculous like that (maybe even 6, is corrupter armor 2?), and having 200 or so health.

Personally I don't think mutas are a problem vs toss anyways as Archons and blink stalkers are insanely good vs them. But maybe it's me.... mothership was also a viable unit to use vs them lategame that many people had just started to figure out, but alas, that's gone.
malaki
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany80 Posts
October 31 2011 19:39 GMT
#537
On November 01 2011 04:28 pezit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 01 2011 04:13 mlspmatt wrote:
Terran has a Muta problem at lower masters diamond levels. Once they get 20+, your stuck running around trying to defend everything, your making a ton of turrets, leaving marines everywhere and you can't leave your base. Thors are too slow to get around and get stuck all the time between buildings.

By the time you can leave your base Zerg has the map and its GG. We tend to watch professional play and say "They handle Mutas just fine, whats the problem?"

Its the reason why game balance can't be designed purely around pro level play. 99.9999% of players aren't pro. And they are the ones having trouble with Muta.


It really doesn't matter what newbies have trouble with because they struggle with a lot of things that aren't broken, that's why they are newbies in the first place. I promise you that in gold and lower a 6pool wins you like 90% of the games, should we nerf that as well? The list would be fucking endless and the game would be totally ruined.




lol youre terribly mistaken iff you think the gold silver and bronze players nowadays are that bad,

they are not,

they have poor mechanics most of the time but theyre not stupid
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
October 31 2011 19:39 GMT
#538
On November 01 2011 04:36 mlspmatt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 01 2011 00:31 Big J wrote:
On November 01 2011 00:21 malaki wrote:
On October 31 2011 22:38 Big J wrote:
On October 31 2011 22:32 malaki wrote:
they kill turrets way too fast, you cant repair them fast enough when the mutas are in big enough numbers,
and after that you lose 10 20 of your workers


Maybe because your 300-400cost defense fights an 3000/3000 cost army? That's why good terrans just have 2-3 troops of marines all over the place and just stim in, once the turrets start to fall.
But ofc, I you like 10min pushes and lose all marines/tanks without killing his mutas, his mutanumbers will slowly get out of control.



not 30 15+ are enough to 1shot turrets, and turrets should hard counter muta balls


you know how many marines you need to kill 30 mutalisks?

30 mutalisks kill 20 marines with only losing 5 mutas

so you're gonna keep 20 marine balls at all your bases all the time?

yeah. Watch the GSL and learn. I'm not doing it, MVP does. MMA does. Happy does. GanZi does.

This is the biggest problem with the thinking in our community. I''ve never, in any sport I've ever played, heard anyone compare my basketball game and what happens to pro level play.

Never heard someone say, "Well I saw Lebron do it last night, so you should be able to do it too."

Of course that's ridiculous.

But in Starcraft, every day I hear "Well Mvp, Nestea, MC can do it so whats the problem?"

Blizzard, thank god, don't just balance the game around what happens in code'S', they pay attention to the hundreds of thousands of non-professional players, who buy the game and allow Browder and company to have a job.





You also don't hear people going "the width of the hoop and the size of the ball needs to be changed because while micheal jordan can make the ball in the hoop quite often i just can't seem to do it, nba needs to balance basketball around us casual players, and not the pros."

I'm sorry but why would they balance around the non professional players when balance at that level is so volatile due to how many things can be imbalanced or overcome by just playing a little bit better, while at the professional level is where balance is actually felt.
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
malaki
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany80 Posts
October 31 2011 19:39 GMT
#539
On November 01 2011 04:36 ForeverAzerG wrote:
people make stupid threads like this then get mutas speed nerfed and what not



they dont need a speed nerf, they need to die faster,
especially when flying into 2,3 turrets
mlspmatt
Profile Joined October 2011
Canada404 Posts
October 31 2011 19:40 GMT
#540
On November 01 2011 04:28 pezit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 01 2011 04:13 mlspmatt wrote:
Terran has a Muta problem at lower masters diamond levels. Once they get 20+, your stuck running around trying to defend everything, your making a ton of turrets, leaving marines everywhere and you can't leave your base. Thors are too slow to get around and get stuck all the time between buildings.

By the time you can leave your base Zerg has the map and its GG. We tend to watch professional play and say "They handle Mutas just fine, whats the problem?"

Its the reason why game balance can't be designed purely around pro level play. 99.9999% of players aren't pro. And they are the ones having trouble with Muta.


It really doesn't matter what newbies have trouble with because they struggle with a lot of things that aren't broken, that's why they are newbies in the first place. I promise you that in gold and lower a 6pool wins you like 90% of the games, should we nerf that as well? The list would be fucking endless and the game would be totally ruined.


Again. Same problem. Masters players who are in the top 5% of players, and are excellent players -are noobs cause they aren't on TV traveling the globe playing professional starcraft.
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